I find the sonic personality of different microphones to be stunning. Not sure if it was HP or Atkinson, but it was a demo of the same music/location played through a series of mircophones - the soundscape sounded completely differrent and completely out of our control. |
|
And I assume Terry is using the XLR connection which is 30kohms on his amps input so it so match ok, assuming not too much time is spent at 5,2kohms. But this is theory and Terry is a pretty experienced listener, I have to assume the CF works very well in his system. Well, I guess that is enough on the CF sojourn.... |
Love the DIY community, unfortuantely, I can only be an observer:)
What I found interesting at the start of the Warpspeed thread was the identification of a few "problems" with the LSA and attempt to improve upon the LSA:
-the inability to adjust to complete silence
-on low/high volume level settings, power levels on the LEDs endanger/shorten/toast the life out of the optocouplers
-the need to improve the power delivery to the optocouplers
-the need to improve on quality of the volume adjustment pot
-the Lightspeed, simple as it is, still has a number of variables/design factors that affect performance
How many of these are valid but not too relevant or important, valid and relevant but insurmontable due to a brick wall and sonic price to pay for addressing the issue, invalid (are the LEDs really in danger)? |
http://wajonaudio.webs.com/GET%20THE%20PERFORMANCE%20of%20a%20$20k%20PRE-AMP%20for%20$200.html |
Not going through, don't know why. Google warpspeed attenuator you should find wajonaudio a few links down. |
Why is a preference for distortion and/or coloration utter nonsense? What is wrong with prefering it. Distortion is measureable, not a subjective gremlin, what if you also happen to like the the piece with more distortion? How many folks have loved CJ equipment over the years knowing full well it was colored, but in a very satisfying way.
What I do suspect is that the signal from the source output is closer to the signal coming from the LSA output than if the signal must go through an active linestage. One might differ on whether this is what we should want, or what we should prefer, but I think (not 100% sure) that this would be measurably the fact of the matter, measurably truer to the source (meaning the CD player output, not the live performance). If the active linestage alters the relationship between the two (source ouput/preamp output) it is inarguably a distortion (and not true or part of what is exist in the signal at the source output connection) -- which you might very well prefer.
Carver's Hologram generator sure did unflatten a soundstage, but it was no part the recording, it was an effect, an artifact created by altering the source signal and delivering something different to the amp. And it may be lovely, enjoyable, pleasant, wondeful, magical, mysterious, etc. - but whatever it is, I just don't see how it can be said to true to the source, true in a measureable and meaningful way - assuming what we measure is relevant. |
AGREE!! And, what is the Warpspeed??? |
|
you might find this interesting
http://wajonaudio.webs.com/GET%20THE%20PERFORMANCE%20of%20a%20$20k%20PRE-AMP%20for%20$200.html |
That is precisely what I do when I am not interested in a thread, ignore it. BENT was good, LSA was better in my system. But it is true, the BENT offers much more flexibility, but that was not a priority for me with a single source and short IC to amp, if it were the BENT would be at the top of my list for a passive, especially the version with Slagle auto former, even better than the S&B, at least to my ears. At this point, while I love the LSA, what is interesting is the new approaches taken, especially as the DIY tinkering community pursues new forms of passive forms of attenuation. Though for ergonomics, ease of use, and input/output flexibility, the BENT was heck of an excellent passive preamp. |
Not sure if diode effect theory drove George's design or the design was in search of a theory to explain its performance. It does seem he is doing something right, as others like Dartzeel deploy this approach in their active linestages where it serves as an attenuator in place of an ALPs, DACT, TKD, etc. |
09-21-11: Teajay
Hi Unsound,
One of the oldest forms of knavery in a debate is to share very nasty implied information by saying that it was proposed by someone else, not the speaker, to get the dig in and than avoid the heat from the audience.
If a desinger is not using LDR, I would be surprised that they would argue for the superiority of LDR. Which does not mean the an LDR is better, but they would have little incentive to suggest that it is, even if it were.
I'm glad Al joined in, I always learn something from him. |
Al, but we do know that contact quality is important[?], so would "no contact" have to be better? for whatever reason or theory? |
Has anyone heard the Troll 2B MKIII yet? |
Teajay asked me that? That's odd - missed it. I use to think this site was mostly enthusiasts that liked blabbering to each other, but perhaps there are more commercial interests lurking in the woods that I care to think - nothing wrong with that if there is full disclosure.
As far as SS, I never tried it, and unless it was a 100kohm impedance load, I proabaly would not bother, something like the First Watt Alpeh J might do well, but for the most part, I see this as a tube amp device, though I imagine it has been used with SS and like Drubin some of them have found it perfectly suitable.
Disclosure: I paid full price for my LSA. |
Don't mean to suggest with an amp with less than 100kohm input impedance, rather that would be my personal pridelection - I'm sure Goerge would point out that 47kohm and up should work fine. Of course you would not have any tubes in the chain and I would only use a SS amp with a tube preamp - something always seems to be missing when there are no tubes involved - I don't like it nearly as much. |
Are you guys dealers for LSA? :) |
09-27-11: Acuscott
"...if you can afford a very epxensive pre-amp, then trying out this little $470 number as an experiment won't hurt the purse strings."
Precisely. It is indusputably worth auditioning and deciding for yourself if it does the trick in your setup - you may be more than pleasantly surprised. |
I run 1 meter from LAS to Music Reference RM10 (hmm, at least 3 folks with that combo - probably because Roger beleives in passives and builds his amps accordingly)- the cable is 12pf or less the 60pf, perhaps the lowest capacitance cable on the market (Carda Golden Reference). |
My record for misspellings in a single comment. George, is there any issue other than capacitance related to cable length? That is, would a 1/2 meter of a quality cable almost always sound better than 1 meter even if it were slightly more capacitive; is something going on with length other than aggregate capacitance? Are any of these differences even relevant a 1 meter or less of IC? |
|
|
|
The LSA will sound much more like the Placette than either will sound like a tube preamp. You should stick what you enjoy most. Are you using the Placette with an SS or tube amp? I could not, would not[?] use a passive with an SS amp for a variety of reasons, but that's me. |
89db Merlins, .8v sensitivity amp, 2v source - 12 normal 3 as loud as I would ever want. |
Thank you. I do love my Atma. Pre/Amp combo too, nice to use a $20 balanced IC and get SOTA performance. |
You might enjoy your Placetter, and passives in general, much more with a tube amp - or what you are doing with the excellent Luxman amps - use a tube preamp that matches well with the lower impedances of SS amps. I love the sound of tubes, and I need them somewhere, but not in my pre if I have them in the amp. Always interesting discussions on where the tubes make the more important and significant difference = preamps or amps - I suspect the sonic stamp is stronger when the tubes are in an amp -- but that is a debate. |
I think that might very well be the case with passives and SS, aside from impedance, you need tubes:) It might be one of the reasons that some, like Teajay a while back, may find the LSA less appealing than a nice tubed preamp matched with SS amp. |
George and AL, Ralph Karsten always makes the point of "controlling the ICs" as the reason for needing and active line stage, and I have to believe Ralph is right about many things regarding equipment, though I also recognize he has an interest in selling active line stages...... to what degree do you find his observation true and under what circumstances - valid with 1 meter or less of ICs, true but not to observable in practice? |
Do let us know how the buffer works for you. It would seem if you don't need a buffer than a buffer will always be worse, and if you do need a buffer a buffer will always sound better - know if you do or not, there lies the rub. Let us know how your experiment goes.
Cheers. |
You would think the real market for George's attenuator would be in licensing to other manufacturers for use in other preamps and integrateds. Virgin works well for me, but a combo with buffering when needed seems like the next iteration. |
I think it is patented, in fact I think George has already nixed one such attempt of using his design commercially without permission - but George could speak to that. |
|
My brother thinks $500 is outrageous for a complete system. |
I think George addressed this 09-29-11 - after I asked a few questions regarding the Warpspeed. |
Yes, it would be good to hear from someone who has actually owned both, or auditioned both at length? Anyone on Audiogon? You?
As far as I know, the LDRs themselves are identical, but Alan appears to have tried to address some ergonomic issues, a more complicated device it seems. Sometimes a tradeoff, especially with an approach principled on simplicity and minimum of parts, contacts, etc. Would not mind trying a WS to see, but not many available, and I certainly could never make one for myself from a kit. |
If you bought it within the past 18 months direct it probably is auto former, but I'm pretty sure they (Tap-x) were also made with TVC, not 100% sure though. I know when I bought mine, John offered to use the S&B or the Slagle. |
As you noted earlier in my question about an improved version, it seems that after 30 years of tinkering, the LSA is well sorted out, and at some point there is little to improve, without as you say paying a sonic cost in the service of some other goal. To me, the only issues are stability over time, and balance control - which unfortunately requires dual volume controls for best sonic results. |
|
One less thing in the world to worry about:) |
Given George's comment, it would seem the burden of proof is on explaining a difference, not the other way around. I find Clio9's comment interesting, as he does hear a difference, but even there hard to put your finger on it, also hard to measure the influence of expectation on something so subtle. However it may be, going to battery supply just doesn't seem like a path with pursuing, at least not to me. |
Agear, seems like your have you answer. The "latest" is syrup thrown on the original and the greatest. But if you still have issues, buy both and decide for yourself; the LSA is still the gold standard, even though it might not be the "latest" -- hard to improve upon perfection. If you personally find something better, do let us know, but you are up against a tough audience of folks who enjoy the LSA. Have you actually used it? Doesn't seem like it. |
Al, that really makes sense. And it seems to explain Clio9s experience, something different but hard to put your finger on it. |
When I say source,I mean the recording, not the live event -there simply is no direct connection to it, but the recording is the reference for purposes of the argument here - true to the recording is proabably better language than saying true the source (live event) - that simply is out of our control and always lost in the very processing of recording, no matter how good the recording and playback equipment. I feel like in a Platonic cave all of sudden.... |
In the February issue of TAS, Neil Gader interviews John McDonald of Audience, and he said something that somehow seems related to this thread:
"At Audience,the Golden Rule is 'first, do no harm,' defining harm as any deviation to the original recording. So high-end to me and to the Audience team is about staying true to the music. Sound-sculpting should be left to the recording artists and engineers"
He could have very well had said, "true to the source" - which I suppose is one reason that those that do like the LSA, like it - true to the source is the raison-d'etre [?] of the hair shirt minimalist approach to do no harm. |
George, the cheaper the product the greater the customer service demands. Don't know the name of that law, but it seems to apply across industries. It would be good for you to be able to include the wall-wart with the shipment, though I guess that can get crazy, but I assume the US would be a pretty big market. $1000-#1500 with multiple inputs and a more substantial, fancier chassis should have a strong following amongst the passive set. Congrats on the ongoing Stereophile recognition. |
Goldpoint does a very good job of providing a classy, no-nonsense case for their array of passive preamps. |
From my original posting: "Is it the best ever? I suspect for some it may be, and to say that for a $450 product makes it stupidgood."
"Stupidgood" -- (a phrase not invented by John Gordon Holt or Harry Pearson, but Bobby P. of Merlin Music Systems to describe products that punch way beyond their price point. |
I'll ask it here, not because it is exactly on point, but the right folks seem to here: Do you think that dual mono attenuators with 2db tapers per step is "fine" enough for using to balance channels? Obviouly that is a non-issue with the LSA becuase it is "infinitely" adjustable. |
