Jazz for aficionados
@tyray , wow, that’s guide a spread Lew Tabackin and Ralph Towner. Tabacking the traditiinalist to Towner who is anything but. Love.it. You make an interesting comment about the rhythm section on “”Impressions”. While I’m not prepared to say Coltrane is the least talented, it’s a testament to the greatness of that trio that not only can they can play on the level of Coltrane, but “greater than the sum of the parts”.
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**** I’m not sure there is a bad Eddie Daniel’s album. Clarinet or Sax, always a good performance. **** There isn’t! Eddie is the greatest ever “woodwind doubler”. Hero to woodwind players in the NYC scene. He achieved a level of mastery that is truly astounding. Little known fact is that he is also an outstanding flutist. While he has been concentrating on the clarinet in recent years he revisits the tenor and flute periodically. This is one of my favorite records of his. Early (first?) record of just duets with the great Bucky Pizzarelly on guitar:
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Good to see Charlie Mariano get some love. Great player and a favorite alto player. Some of my favorite Mariano is as a side man with the great Elvin Jones. I confess to having to make an adjustment in my head (ears) to get used to his idiosyncratic sense of intonation, but I love his soulfulness and story telling.
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@tyray , 😂 When I first joined this forum (14 yrs ago!) my youngest son had just received a present from his grandmother. Very cute pajamas with frogs all over them and we affectionately started calling my son “frogman”. When prompted to choose a moniker to complete the process of joining the forum I thought, well…….why not? | |
Ask most music lovers what music genre the saxophone is mostly associated with and the answer will probably be “Jazz”. Serious Jazz aficionados (not here 😊) have a tendency to short change David Sanborn’s importance in the overall scheme of things. I’m not suggesting that Sanborn, as a Jazz alto player, is the equal of a Phil Woods or a Kenny Garret, but in the context of all the directions that “Jazz” has taken with its fusion with popular genres he is every bit the story teller that many of the more “serious” Jazz alto players are/were. Unique sound, fantastic feel, phrasing, and one of those players that could say something with just one or two notes. Whereas Jazz saxophone playing tends to be “noty”, his was a model of economy in improvisation. Sanborn, along with Michael Brecker, are undoubtedly the two most influential saxophone players of the last four decades or so. While Brecker was the much more accomplished Jazz player in the strict sense of the word, they both shared a certain Pop/Rock sensibility in their respective styles. Obviously, Sanborn much more so. For better or for worse the legions of alto saxophone players one hears on “Smooth Jazz” tunes owe their style to Sanborn. Sanborn credits Stevie Wonder’s harmonica playing as a big influence on his own playing. He played the way a great blues harp player does, or a guitar player like B.B. King. Few notes, but with ultimate expressiveness. But, he could also play with a much more sophisticated sense of harmony when the musical setting called for it; like a Jazz player. Big loss.
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**** Jazz has never been stationary. **** Exactly! It evolves. It builds on what came before and the lineage is always there to be heard. @acman3 describes the Jazz/Rock divide well. Not a put down of Rock music or musicians, but very very few have been able to play Jazz at anywhere near the level of good Jazz players; even when they wanted to. Even the mentioned Ginger Baker was not on the level of good Jazz drummers. Obviously, two very different disciplines. I don’t think that Shorter “sold out” . If one follows his career it is easy to hear how his involvement with Weather Report was a logical step in his evolution as an artist. While WR’s music was not always my cup of tea it certainly was innovative and influential and a logical step toward what Shorter did in more recent years as a solo artist. For me, Shorter is on the short(ish) list of true giants of the music. Fantastic composer as well as player and adherent to one of tenets of Jazz: “say what you have to say without unnecessary notes”. His playing became more and more economical as his career progressed. One of those players who could express so much with few notes. Re Sonny Rollins and the “hoofbeats” on “I’m An Old Cowhand”. Not really that surprising. There was always a certain element of humor in Sonny’s playing. Speaking of humor and Jazz. Cannonball Adderly was another player that could bring an element of humor to his playing. He certainly had a sense of humor as exemplified by this clip that I recently sent a friend who didn’t believe me it existed when I told him about it. Just for chuckles:
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Nice clips! Very good player. He was a very successful player in his heyday with an impressive discography. He was also a fine flutist. A real character whom I had the opportunity to work with on a few occasions in more commercial settings. He would fly his own airplane from his home on Long Island, NY, always with a very attractive young lady at least half his age at his side. With Bill Evans on the original album that “Whisper Not” is from:
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Came across this clip of Roney talking about meeting Miles. Funny moment: @3:10, Roney says “He was the coolest…..”. Then, you can see/hear him about to say a word beginning with the letter “m”. He stops himself and says “…..person”. “He was the coolest person”. I’ll bet that “m” word would rhyme with “honeysucker” 😊 | |
Re @stuartk ’s last post: Just wanted to share some thoughts that I had concerning his mention of Wallace Roney and Gary Thomas. I know Roney’s playing, but less so that of Thomas. I found the thoughts that came to mind interesting (to me, anyway) and pointing to the issue of player-to-player stylistic influence and “simpatico”. I searched YouTube and listened to a couple of Gary Thomas clips and one of the first things that came to mind was another great tenor player, Bob Berg. There was a similar rhythmic urgency and phrasing, if not exactly in their respective tones, in the playing of both players. Clear Coltrane influence without being Coltrane “clones”. Digging into Thomas’ background I learned that Miles had chosen him for one of his last bands. So had been Bob Berg. Adding to the interesting “connections” and as stuartk points out, Roney has been criticized for “sounding too much like Miles”. Hmmmm……! Anyway, great players all around. | |
Yes, nice Bob Berg clips. Thanks! @stuartk , a couple of sessions with Fusion (“electric”) elements that he played on and led by two great players that seem to stay under the radar. With pianist Niels Lan Doky: https://youtu.be/U2zFlthiPnw?si=3QL6IA-pR7loFC11 https://youtu.be/Z2ioZkGZeU4?si=seRQ625iyjFh2Dg7 With one of my favorite vibraphonists, Joe Locke: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nWfLCIjHbRBPFcZeXmv-vI0G-COSJAw3M&si=rvJQUH4yScAD65bS
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@tyray , I love that! | |
I get it. I understand (I think) why you feel the way you do and it is a perfectly valid viewpoint. As you pointed out, “beauty lies in the eye of the beholder”. The following comments are not meant as a rebuttal to yours, simply an explanation of why I (!) feel that the SGQ could be considered to be the greatest ever and, for me, they were. You cite “beauty of expression” as the determinant factor for you. For me there is no less beauty of expression in the playing of the SGQ. However, it is of a different kind; a different aesthetic. It is rhythmically more obtuse. Improvisations are more removed from and less grounded in the melodic and harmonic “centers of gravity” of the composition than those heard in the tunes on KOB, to use your example. Some would say, more adventurous. Don’t get me wrong, I love KOB and it is one of the most important records and one of the greatest bands in Jazz history. During the time of the SGQ Jazz, in general, was in a different place than it was during the KOB era. As always great art reflects the time of its creation and if prefers one particular aesthetic over a more “progressive” aesthetic than that would guide our judgment of one over the other. Those are all things I would say fall under the “in the eye of the beholder” rule. A personal call. I like both aesthetics; probably equally so. However, for me, it goes beyond that. The level of musical interplay between the members of the SGQ is simply amazing. In my opinion, it is on a different level entirely. There is a level of musical telepathy, musical conversation that happens between the players that is breathtaking. Particularly impressive when one considers how abstract Miles’ approach to a melody could be, as an example. A perfect example of this connection is heard in the very beginning of the live clip that I posted previously. They walk out on stage, no banter, no count off of the tune, no hesitation. Miles simply plays an opening phrase and they take off in perfect synchronicity and it goes from there. Pretty impressive stuff. One thing that I think is indisputable is the genius of Miles Davis.
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Much to say about the topic, when time allows. But, for starters: “freer”, in the context of the music of the SGQ, does not mean “free jazz”. Alex, you may have read my unedited post, but I edited since I did not want to be presumptuous. I am not the least bit surprised that you like Coleman’s tone better than Shorter’s. | |
Good comment, @stuartk .
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Great comments re the “greatest” ever Jazz band. Which one? Some thoughts: Tone is clearly very important. But, as has been pointed out, beauty is a subjective thing and tone quality is only one piece of a player’s personality. Consider a great spoken word story teller or narrator. What is more important? The sound (tone) of his/her voice, or his/her ability to tell the story in a convincing, interesting and captivating way? Jazz playing is story telling. Story telling in melody, rhythm and harmony. As much as I love a great tone, I am tolerant of less than beautiful tone if the story is great and the style individualistic. Personal call. | |
**** When I mentioned Canonball Aderly recording " Something Else" being a Miles recording, I was hopeful that the OP would pop up, because that was something he would not have let stand if he was around . Also, it's an awesome recording. **** We are on the same page, @acman3 . When I saw your previous post about this (awesome indeed) recording, I suspected that it was a veiled reference to the “bru ha ha” (the OP’s often used phrase) that ensued when I suggested that it was a Miles led session, in spite of the fact that Cannonball is credited as the leader. Our OP did not let it stand. My reasoning was that Cannonball was a new member of Miles’ band and one can hear Miles, not Cannon, speaking to and directing the proceedings. Not to mention, the prominent playing role that Miles has on the record. Contracts can be a funny thing. Anyway, I came back to post and to mention all this as an acknowledgment of the debt owed by all for the OP starting this thread and saw your last post. A lot of disagreement and more than a little drama over the years, but no denying that the OP loves/d this music and was very passionate about it. Best to him wherever he is. https://jazzdesk.wordpress.com/2021/03/20/the-leader-as-sideman/
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Nice post, @stuartk . Wonderful Pharoah. Thanks for reminding me of this great record. “Rapturous” is a great way of describing his playing on it. Just beautiful. A lot of “Coltranisms” in his playing, but a vey different musical aura. Having always thought of Coltrane’s version of “You Don’t Know……” as the definitive version, Pharoah’s makes Trane’s sound anything but rapturous. Melancholy is the word that comes to mind when listening to Trane’s. https://youtu.be/JrwSuy6ZBjI?si=c4xIxqnX-WB4pN-i
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Dexter was one of Coltrane’s main influences. https://youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_ncm49E9MiOaVGX-GRR5UI6j6DWDugrywU&si=hXQAwHiwHVMQDjYh | |
I’m a little late with commenting on Alex’s great post on the origin (?) of the great tune “Nature Boy”. Great story about one of my favorite songs. Thanks, Alex. The story of how Nat Cole came to have the song is fascinating. Ahbez was clearly a very interesting character and his lifestyle was in keeping with a pre-hippie movement in California (of course) in the 1940’s whose members were referred to as “The Nature Boys”. The reason for the question mark above is that there is a bit of controversy surrounding the origin of the song. Ahbez was actually sued by Yiddish songwriter Herman Yablokoff for allegedly plagiarizing the melody of one of his songs. They would eventually settle the matter out of court. I thought it might be interesting to listen to both songs and compare. Personally, I am of two minds about it. Does Yablokoff have a valid claim? As music lovers we tend to be romantics and sometimes believe in notions such as the idea that a melody should not be “owned”, or that if a similar melody is composed and it bears similarity to another copywrited melody if there was no deliberate attempt to copy that the original should not protected. I’m not sure. Whether intentional or not should not a composer’s “product” be protected just as any other patented product is? What do you think in this case? This is my favorite version by Nat Cole (Check out the guitar of Oscar Moore!): https://youtu.be/Iq0XJCJ1Srw?si=Md7MEdQLk7d0Fby This is Yablokoff’s song “Schvayg Mein Harts”. Skip past the long “introduction” and to the 2:00 mark. Interesting: https://youtu.be/uT7GcjBnWaw?si=jppRbdIvBhJ-VpYI On a more personal note: I often ride the NYC subways. It is not uncommon to hear performers, music and otherwise, perform on the subways to earn some money. On one of the subway lines that I used to ride I would often hear the same VERY colorful elderly gentleman play alto saxophone. He always played the same song….”Nature Boy”. He sounded pretty good, but he would always play the same “wrong” note in the melody. One of the things that gives that great melody such a distinctive and almost exotic sound is what happens when the lyric goes “They say he wandered very far,…..”. The melodic movement to “far” is a downward half step. Like going from a white key to a black key on a piano. That gentleman would instead go down a whole step which gives it an almost bluesy sound. After hearing him do this on at least five or six occasions I had to ask him. As I handed him a few dollars I said to him: “It sounds really good, man, but you know that spot in the tune where it goes down a……” He interrupted me and seeming a little annoyed said in a gravelly voice “I know, I know man, but I make more money that way!” Cracked me up.
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I have posted cuts from this record a few times previously. Apology for the possible repetition, but this record just kills me. It is records like this that set such a high standard of modern Jazz musicianship that I can listen to it countless times without missing “variety” or “newness”. There is so much to be discovered with every listening. https://youtu.be/rZC7mEzczEI?si=1UMtFl4Yfu_rIIjx https://youtu.be/ZXOOpc4OPfs?si=Mrxz_iZQ5hxUwq-E https://youtu.be/M0Q7BM0_oLE?si=F_gtyl8_1F-OpKmE
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I like George Coleman. A lot. On the other hand, it’s hard to argue with the perspective of Miles, Williams and Hancock. 😊. I think I get what the issue may have been for those guys. As much as I like his playing, I am seldom surprised by what Coleman plays. I suppose it’s possible to not be “right” without necessarily being “wrong”. Setting is key. https://youtu.be/nuYeeMcyCIk?si=n8UEmpQ5G6oxwqtX
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Wayne Shorter was indeed magical. I would take that assessment a step further. One of the reasons that he was magical was that he fit Miles’ creative vision in that the music had to always move forward stylistically; to evolve. If one looks at Shorter’s work over the course of his career this stylistic evolution is amazing, from his early work to hard bop, to that as cofounder of Weather Report, to “World Music” and his later solo work. Coleman, on the other hand always stayed firmly in a hard bop/post bop vein. | |
Ohnwy61, couldn’t agree more re Shorter the composer. One of the most important modern Jazz composers. Some would say the most important. https://youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_k_S9vI2ODPguv7DmtgAJ8frd1yj5dSGgA&si=R3g6Eo64dAJgGfPG | |
I couldn’t agree more with your sentiment, Stuartk. I don’t think it has been suggested otherwise. Having said that, for me, the “analysis” or learning of things like the reasons for why great players like Miles make the personnel (and others) choices they make enhances the listening. Can’t imagine Porter in the Second Great Quintet, ‘though 😊 | |
