Jazz for aficionados

Or Classical:

Oh yeah, great tenor player too:

Good to see Charlie Mariano get some love. Great player and a favorite alto player.

Some of my favorite Mariano is as a side man with the great Elvin Jones. I confess to having to make an adjustment in my head (ears) to get used to his idiosyncratic sense of intonation, but I love his soulfulness and story telling.

No apology necessary, acman3. Nice clip. Gary Bartz!.

I understand that there is a Hammond B3 lover in the room 😊:

****  I like her for this simplicity at the service of the song ****

Exactly.  

Ask most music lovers what music genre the saxophone is mostly associated with and the answer will probably be “Jazz”. Serious Jazz aficionados (not here 😊) have a tendency to short change David Sanborn’s importance in the overall scheme of things. I’m not suggesting that Sanborn, as a Jazz alto player, is the equal of a Phil Woods or a Kenny Garret, but in the context of all the directions that “Jazz” has taken with its fusion with popular genres he is every bit the story teller that many of the more “serious” Jazz alto players are/were. Unique sound, fantastic feel, phrasing, and one of those players that could say something with just one or two notes. Whereas Jazz saxophone playing tends to be “noty”, his was a model of economy in improvisation.

Sanborn, along with Michael Brecker, are undoubtedly the two most influential saxophone players of the last four decades or so. While Brecker was the much more accomplished Jazz player in the strict sense of the word, they both shared a certain Pop/Rock sensibility in their respective styles. Obviously, Sanborn much more so. For better or for worse the legions of alto saxophone players one hears on “Smooth Jazz” tunes owe their style to Sanborn.

Sanborn credits Stevie Wonder’s harmonica playing as a big influence on his own playing. He played the way a great blues harp player does, or a guitar player like B.B. King. Few notes, but with ultimate expressiveness. But, he could also play with a much more sophisticated sense of harmony when the musical setting called for it; like a Jazz player.

Big loss.

Keep in mind that this is in the context of the preponderance of the fusion of Jazz and Pop/Rock/R&B over the last four to five decades.  Some genres may not be our cup of tea, but core musical values apply to all genres.

”There are only two kinds of music, good and bad”

Yes, nice record!

**** Jazz has never been stationary. ****

Exactly! It evolves. It builds on what came before and the lineage is always there to be heard.

(Given the topic at hand (Rock/Jazz), I can hear coming the footsteps of our contributor with the appropriate handle 😊)

@acman3 describes the Jazz/Rock divide well. Not a put down of Rock music or musicians, but very very few have been able to play Jazz at anywhere near the level of good Jazz players; even when they wanted to. Even the mentioned Ginger Baker was not on the level of good Jazz drummers. Obviously, two very different disciplines.

I don’t think that Shorter “sold out” . If one follows his career it is easy to hear how his involvement with Weather Report was a logical step in his evolution as an artist. While WR’s music was not always my cup of tea it certainly was innovative and influential and a logical step toward what Shorter did in more recent years as a solo artist.

For me, Shorter is on the short(ish) list of true giants of the music. Fantastic composer as well as player and adherent to one of tenets of Jazz: “say what you have to say without unnecessary notes”. His playing became more and more economical as his career progressed. One of those players who could express so much with few notes.

Re Sonny Rollins and the “hoofbeats” on “I’m An Old Cowhand”. Not really that surprising. There was always a certain element of humor in Sonny’s playing.

Speaking of humor and Jazz. Cannonball Adderly was another player that could bring an element of humor to his playing. He certainly had a sense of humor as exemplified by this clip that I recently sent a friend who didn’t believe me it existed when I told him about it. Just for chuckles:

Nice clips!

Very good player. He was a very successful player in his heyday with an impressive discography. He was also a fine flutist. A real character whom I had the opportunity to work with on a few occasions in more commercial settings. He would fly his own airplane from his home on Long Island, NY, always with a very attractive young lady at least half his age at his side. With Bill Evans on the original album that “Whisper Not” is from:

Not too far away,  I hope:

https://youtu.be/YTeacoeAm9o

https://youtu.be/wiPLe2mmV70

https://youtu.be/_9Mf5EwlFcU?si=3dX9Pay45Rw29J5D
 

https://youtu.be/3t3H32spG7Q?si=5Y9U9d6_na__qT0_
 

https://youtu.be/GjuT9OJifOs?si=5BrD8zQ-QGSR92AU

Came across this clip of Roney talking about meeting Miles.  Funny moment:

@3:10, Roney says “He was the coolest…..”.  Then, you can see/hear him about to say a word beginning with the letter “m”.  He stops himself and says “…..person”.  “He was the coolest person”.  I’ll bet that “m” word would rhyme with “honeysucker” 😊

https://youtu.be/jzXSXEj-5bs?si=NLXzrfgnXJTbvVHI

Re @stuartk ’s last post:

Just wanted to share some thoughts that I had concerning his mention of Wallace Roney and Gary Thomas. I know Roney’s playing, but less so that of Thomas. I found the thoughts that came to mind interesting (to me, anyway) and pointing to the issue of player-to-player stylistic influence and “simpatico”.

I searched YouTube and listened to a couple of Gary Thomas clips and one of the first things that came to mind was another great tenor player, Bob Berg. There was a similar rhythmic urgency and phrasing, if not exactly in their respective tones, in the playing of both players. Clear Coltrane influence without being Coltrane “clones”. Digging into Thomas’ background I learned that Miles had chosen him for one of his last bands. So had been Bob Berg. Adding to the interesting “connections” and as stuartk points out, Roney has been criticized for “sounding too much like Miles”. Hmmmm……!

Anyway, great players all around.

https://youtu.be/9VYImu9w_18?si=FxEZP7BSPMm_EXCb

Yes, nice Bob Berg clips. Thanks!

@stuartk , a couple of sessions with Fusion (“electric”) elements that he played on and led by two great players that seem to stay under the radar.

With pianist Niels Lan Doky:

https://youtu.be/U2zFlthiPnw?si=3QL6IA-pR7loFC11

https://youtu.be/Z2ioZkGZeU4?si=seRQ625iyjFh2Dg7

With one of my favorite vibraphonists, Joe Locke:

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nWfLCIjHbRBPFcZeXmv-vI0G-COSJAw3M&si=rvJQUH4yScAD65bS

I normally dislike “greatest” this or that designations in Jazz, an art form in which individuality is a key component.  However, for me, Miles’ “Second Great Quintet” is the greatest Jazz ensemble that ever was. Incredible in every way.

https://youtu.be/oxnQvVhjdmg?si=O4sL1Nz6YDp2PWU9

@tyray ,  I love that!

I get it. I understand (I think) why you feel the way you do and it is a perfectly valid viewpoint. As you pointed out, “beauty lies in the eye of the beholder”. The following comments are not meant as a rebuttal to yours, simply an explanation of why I (!) feel that the SGQ could be considered to be the greatest ever and, for me, they were.

You cite “beauty of expression” as the determinant factor for you. For me there is no less beauty of expression in the playing of the SGQ. However, it is of a different kind; a different aesthetic. It is rhythmically more obtuse. Improvisations are more removed from and less grounded in the melodic and harmonic “centers of gravity” of the composition than those heard in the tunes on KOB, to use your example. Some would say, more adventurous. Don’t get me wrong, I love KOB and it is one of the most important records and one of the greatest bands in Jazz history. During the time of the SGQ Jazz, in general, was in a different place than it was during the KOB era. As always great art reflects the time of its creation and if prefers one particular aesthetic over a more “progressive” aesthetic than that would guide our judgment of one over the other. Those are all things I would say fall under the “in the eye of the beholder” rule. A personal call. I like both aesthetics; probably equally so.

However, for me, it goes beyond that. The level of musical interplay between the members of the SGQ is simply amazing. In my opinion, it is on a different level entirely. There is a level of musical telepathy, musical conversation that happens between the players that is breathtaking. Particularly impressive when one considers how abstract Miles’ approach to a melody could be, as an example. A perfect example of this connection is heard in the very beginning of the live clip that I posted previously. They walk out on stage, no banter, no count off of the tune, no hesitation. Miles simply plays an opening phrase and they take off in perfect synchronicity and it goes from there. Pretty impressive stuff.

One thing that I think is indisputable is the genius of Miles Davis.

Speaking of “abstract approach to a melody”. One of my favorite Miles recordings. Same rhythm section as the SGQ, but different tenor player. I have always liked George Coleman. Great, but different voice than that of Wayne Shorter.  A different kind of beauty in his playing. 

https://youtu.be/XdrAzpYdOYs?si=YijSVyBwoh5jg4rf

Much to say about the topic, when time allows. But, for starters:  “freer”, in the context of the music of the SGQ,  does not mean “free jazz”.  

Alex, you may have read my unedited post, but I edited since I did not want to be presumptuous.  I am not the least bit surprised that you like Coleman’s tone better than Shorter’s.  

Good comment, @stuartk .

But, I think there may be some misunderstanding about modal Jazz. While it is true that the artistic impetus for modal Jazz was to allow Jazz players to “be less tied to chord changes”, as you point out, the players were “less tied to chord changes” as concerns the sheer number of different chord changes in a given composition. While a typical “standard” tune may have a different chord change in every measure of the tune, and sometimes even two or more in a single measure, in modal Jazz the chord changes happen much less frequently; typically every four or even eight (or more) measures. In some “modal” compositions there are no chord chord changes at all. The tune stays on one harmony for its entirety. Staying on one chord for an extended period of time the player is given the freedom to explore that harmony far longer than in a typical tune in which the frequent chord changes serves to “guide”, even force, the player to move in a certain harmonic direction while improvising. I think that this serves to give a feeling of “structure” due to its relative harmonic“simplicity”.

Great comments re the “greatest” ever Jazz band.  Which one?  Some thoughts:

Tone is clearly very important.  But, as has been pointed out, beauty is a subjective thing and tone quality is only one piece of a player’s personality.  Consider a great spoken word story teller or narrator.  What is more important?  The sound (tone) of his/her voice, or his/her ability to tell the story in a convincing, interesting and captivating way?  Jazz playing is story telling.  Story telling in melody, rhythm and harmony.  As much as I love a great tone, I am tolerant of less than beautiful tone if the story is great and the style individualistic. Personal call.

**** When I mentioned Canonball Aderly recording " Something Else" being a Miles recording, I was hopeful that the OP would pop up, because that was something he would not have let stand if he was around . 

Also, it's an awesome recording. ****

We are on the same page, @acman3  .

When I saw your previous post about this (awesome indeed) recording, I suspected that it was a veiled reference to the “bru ha ha” (the OP’s often used phrase) that ensued when I suggested that it was a Miles led session, in spite of the fact that Cannonball is credited as the leader.  Our OP did not let it stand.  My reasoning was that Cannonball was a new member of Miles’ band and one can hear Miles, not Cannon, speaking to and directing the proceedings.  Not to mention, the prominent playing role that Miles has on the record.  Contracts can be a funny thing.

Anyway, I came back to post and to mention all this as an acknowledgment of the debt owed by all for the OP starting this thread and saw your last post.  A lot of disagreement and more than a little drama over the years, but no denying that the OP loves/d this music and was very passionate about it.  Best to him wherever he is.

https://jazzdesk.wordpress.com/2021/03/20/the-leader-as-sideman/

Nice post, @stuartk . Wonderful Pharoah. Thanks for reminding me of this great record. “Rapturous” is a great way of describing his playing on it. Just beautiful. A lot of “Coltranisms” in his playing, but a vey different musical aura. Having always thought of Coltrane’s version of “You Don’t Know……” as the definitive version, Pharoah’s makes Trane’s sound anything but rapturous. Melancholy is the word that comes to mind when listening to Trane’s.

https://youtu.be/JrwSuy6ZBjI?si=c4xIxqnX-WB4pN-i

https://youtu.be/3Q18F--zZ-I?si=pAFnwFWjafPUtBOD

https://youtu.be/sLc9XV74QPk?si=6kxQi1ZawC7wV5jL

https://youtu.be/bPAC6zt_1ZM?si=mhN31AqG2RVU6SVC

Dexter was one of Coltrane’s main influences.

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_ncm49E9MiOaVGX-GRR5UI6j6DWDugrywU&si=hXQAwHiwHVMQDjYh

Fantastic and important commentary by Sonny!  Very important for context in the understanding of this music.  Thanks, acman3!  
 

I’m a little late with commenting on Alex’s great post on the origin (?) of the great tune “Nature Boy”. Great story about one of my favorite songs. Thanks, Alex.

The story of how Nat Cole came to have the song is fascinating. Ahbez was clearly a very interesting character and his lifestyle was in keeping with a pre-hippie movement in California (of course) in the 1940’s whose members were referred to as “The Nature Boys”. The reason for the question mark above is that there is a bit of controversy surrounding the origin of the song. Ahbez was actually sued by Yiddish songwriter Herman Yablokoff for allegedly plagiarizing the melody of one of his songs. They would eventually settle the matter out of court. I thought it might be interesting to listen to both songs and compare. Personally, I am of two minds about it. Does Yablokoff have a valid claim? As music lovers we tend to be romantics and sometimes believe in notions such as the idea that a melody should not be “owned”, or that if a similar melody is composed and it bears similarity to another copywrited melody if there was no deliberate attempt to copy that the original should not protected. I’m not sure. Whether intentional or not should not a composer’s “product” be protected just as any other patented product is? What do you think in this case?

This is my favorite version by Nat Cole (Check out the guitar of Oscar Moore!):

https://youtu.be/Iq0XJCJ1Srw?si=Md7MEdQLk7d0Fby

This is Yablokoff’s song “Schvayg Mein Harts”. Skip past the long “introduction” and to the 2:00 mark. Interesting:

https://youtu.be/uT7GcjBnWaw?si=jppRbdIvBhJ-VpYI

On a more personal note:

I often ride the NYC subways. It is not uncommon to hear performers, music and otherwise, perform on the subways to earn some money. On one of the subway lines that I used to ride I would often hear the same VERY colorful elderly gentleman play alto saxophone. He always played the same song….”Nature Boy”. He sounded pretty good, but he would always play the same “wrong” note in the melody. One of the things that gives that great melody such a distinctive and almost exotic sound is what happens when the lyric goes “They say he wandered very far,…..”. The melodic movement to “far” is a downward half step. Like going from a white key to a black key on a piano. That gentleman would instead go down a whole step which gives it an almost bluesy sound. After hearing him do this on at least five or six occasions I had to ask him. As I handed him a few dollars I said to him: “It sounds really good, man, but you know that spot in the tune where it goes down a……” He interrupted me and seeming a little annoyed said in a gravelly voice “I know, I know man, but I make more money that way!” Cracked me up.

I have posted cuts from this record a few times previously.  Apology for the possible repetition, but this record just kills me.  It is records like this that set such a high standard of modern Jazz musicianship that I can listen to it countless times without missing “variety” or “newness”.  There is so much to be discovered with every listening.  

https://youtu.be/rZC7mEzczEI?si=1UMtFl4Yfu_rIIjx
 

https://youtu.be/ZXOOpc4OPfs?si=Mrxz_iZQ5hxUwq-E

https://youtu.be/M0Q7BM0_oLE?si=F_gtyl8_1F-OpKmE

https://youtu.be/2TFemsku2o0

I like George Coleman. A lot. On the other hand, it’s hard to argue with the perspective of Miles, Williams and Hancock. 😊. I think I get what the issue may have been for those guys. As much as I like his playing, I am seldom surprised by what Coleman plays. I suppose it’s possible to not be “right” without necessarily being “wrong”. Setting is key.

https://youtu.be/nuYeeMcyCIk?si=n8UEmpQ5G6oxwqtX

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lJbHJ3w3iTb0yZO0b_Q_aDcv3j5UjfpzA&si=Xa4iqQxlImyEfrje

Wayne Shorter was indeed magical.  I would take that assessment a step further.  One of the reasons that he was magical was that he fit Miles’ creative vision in that the music had to always move forward stylistically; to evolve.  If one looks at Shorter’s work over the course of his career this stylistic evolution is amazing, from his early work to hard bop, to that as cofounder of Weather Report, to “World Music” and his later solo work. Coleman, on the other hand always stayed firmly in a hard bop/post bop vein.  

Ohnwy61, couldn’t agree more re Shorter the composer. One of the most important modern Jazz composers. Some would say the most important.

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_k_S9vI2ODPguv7DmtgAJ8frd1yj5dSGgA&si=R3g6Eo64dAJgGfPG

I couldn’t agree more with your sentiment, Stuartk.  I don’t think it has been suggested otherwise.  Having said that, for me, the “analysis” or learning of things like the reasons for why great players like Miles make the personnel (and others) choices they make enhances the listening.  Can’t imagine Porter in the Second Great Quintet, ‘though 😊

Yes, typo.  I meant Potter. 🤔

@stuartk ,

Chris Potter is an amazing tenor saxophonist. A technical wizard who in recent times was bested in that department probably only by Michael Brecker. Amazing technician who is also very creative as a soloist. I like him very much.

As you point out he “can certainly handle very slippery timing and harmonically ambiguous settings” (great comment, btw). However, I hope we can agree that not every player is great in every musical setting, even if they can “handle” each setting’s particular musical demands. When in settings established by an artist on the level of a Miles Davis, to be able to handle the demands is simply not enough. There has to be a compatible style and creative vision that causes “the whole to be greater than the sum of its parts”. Great leaders (Miles) demand that.

Potter plays in a decidedly post-Coltrane style and like Brecker shows hints of a Jazz/Rock sensibility in his tone and inflections. He did play with Steely Dan for some time, after all. Personally, I think he owes quite a bit to Brecker, stylistically. He is very assertive. Some would say aggressive. While he has amazing command of the instrument, harmony and rhythm, as you point out, I don’t hear a lot of command or use of the abstract. Miles’ music during the Second Great Quintet period could be VERY abstract. Would he have been what Miles was looking for in a tenor player at that point in his career? I’m not so sure. A post-Coltrane sensibility is probably not what Miles was looking for at that point. For his later electric period? Much safer bet.

I hope this explains my reasoning (just one man’s opinion).

I love this:

https://youtu.be/DiDt5LNXsMY?si=TrzF2f_l_fCUvgJT

@stuartk ,

Thank you for your post.

You are a very astute listener (I believe you are also a musician). Your posts make it obvious that you have very good ears and understanding of the music, so no apology necessary for your discernment. Quite the contrary. I always appreciate your posts as well.  A couple of “fine tunings” to what I wrote previously.

I did not at all say that Potter’s style has a “dominant Jazz/Rock sensibility”. I wrote “hints of a Jazz/Rock sensibility”. Btw, to have some Jazz/Rock sensibility is not a negative at all in my book.  It is the reality of where the music went over the course of the last four or five decades. If one listens to Michael Brecker, broadly considered to be the greatest of the post-Coltrane tenor players one can hear a similarity in Potter’s tone and more subtly in his inflections. (Brecker, who was very prominent in the Jazz/Rock and Pop genres as well as mainstream Jazz was a huge influence on tenor players of the last five decades or so). As opposed to, for instance, Joe Lovano, a contemporary of both Brecker and Potter who has a decidedly different tone approach. Warmer and less aggressive and at times ethereal as opposed to the “horn about to split at the seams” tone approach that characterizes most post-Coltrane players.

Early(ish) Brecker with the recently posted guitarist Jack Wilkins. This record was posted here a couple of years ago:

https://youtu.be/WyqcP03Mj9s?si=DXk4HxfmSZz_PiB1

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_l85qqhvqGAA36q_ctKF3ZoE3cqpktgknc&si=_tsd0ILQZ4eDniel

****What I meant to say was Michael Brecker was heavily influenced by Coltrane and Chris Potter was influenced in return by Michael Brecker.

I sometimes hear a little "Steps Ahead" when I listen to Potter’s music. Bits and pieces. ****

Exactly!

“Q” was one of a kind.

Did you say “old school Jazz from the ‘50’s and ‘60’s?

https://youtu.be/ldYen3sYVUc?si=VR9WOalPMY_Ctn6z

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLBJenJIJrq0zehq8tKd8teZiOSjk2bBG2&si=sqOHv-LqUf-EP3MB

A side of “Q” rarely mentioned:

https://youtu.be/rnKZ_PEdXcc?si=1blHXiy7xuDG25zx