Jazz for aficionados

phasing=phrasing

I kept asking myself, “7000”? “7000? What the hell are these guys talking about?”Took me a while to realize. 7000 posts! Has it been that many? Has it really been more than twenty years that I’ve been here? How time flies!

Anyway, thank you guys for your comments and for the shared music. It’s a pleasure to exchange ideas about the gift of music with true music lovers. Best to all!

Well, I could preface my response with “With all due respect…”, but I have to ask myself just how much respect someone who comes in like a bull in a China closet to preach in an insensitive and ill informed way deserves. But, I digress….so, I will instead try and educate you…a little.

You could not be more mistaken. First, there IS a “Classical music for Aficionados” thread already, in which many of the contributors here also participate. Now, more importantly, your premise is mistaken and shows an immature understanding and attitude toward the music which is the focus of THIS thread and music in general. It is not true that there is “no comparison” to be made between Jazz and Classical. There are, in fact, many comparisons to be made between the two. The most obvious being that harmonic concepts in Jazz are rooted in Western Classical music. That is a basic and important fact that anyone who would dare to identify via his moniker with the name of one of the giants of Jazz should understand. I would also point out that if you truly understood what Coltrane was all about you would know that Coltrane himself would be the first to point out what I just wrote.

Much more to say related to the above, but I won’t waste any more time unless I know there will be receptive ears. Given the attitude demonstrated so far I would not bet on it. I would say that Jazz and Classical and all that comprises their respective compositional and performance practices have a fair amount in common. I would also say that while they may be neighborhoods apart, they certainly are not “worlds apart”.

Stick around, here and also Classical MFA. Some very insightful folks lurk about.

And, let’s not forget that improvisation is not unique to Jazz. Less so today than in Beethoven’s time (since he was mentioned) when it was more common, but Classical music has a long tradition of improvisation. Many Classical works (concertos) include a cadenza which is to be improvised in the style of the written music. Just as in Jazz where players follow a set of chord “changes” as the basis for improvisation, some of Bach’s keyboard works include a prelude in which elaborations of chord progressions are to be used for improvisation.

**** All I saying is Classical has thousand times more music than jazz ,****

This is true; as is all you wrote. Important to keep in mind that Classical music has been with us over one thousand years if one includes its earliest forms while Jazz is barely one hundred years young.

pjw, that Joe Morello clip is outstanding. Being a rather casual listener of Dave Brubeck’s music I confess that I did not have enough appreciation for Joe Morello’s playing. I’ve always thought he was great, but I didn’t realize that he was GREAT. His time is remarkable; it just doesn’t waiver. If only due to physical fatigue, if one listens closely to most extended drum solos one can usually hear a bit of time lag. Not here. To accomplish that while being creative and musically logical on that level is phenomenal. Thank you for that.

On a conceptually more modern style (not necessarily “better”), Max Roach could do that:

mahgister, nice!

inna, curious, why and how exactly?

Great stuff, @acman3 , thanks.  My favorite big band and one of my favorite arrangers.  Right back at you:

https://youtu.be/hTFhcL-YrDU?si=Kdvg7iSaWEJs1b4Y

I like clarity, especially when my comments are being (mis)represented. So, to be clear:

The term “The Frogman’s rule” was coined by Rok2id in response (in part) to an ongoing “debate” here about the possible reasons that some musicians are not as well known as others. I would not be so self centered as to make a “rule” for anyone else but myself. As further background, there was a suggestion made AT THE TIME that it was usually some sort of injustice at play. The “starving genius artist” myth. I disagreed and wrote that the reason was OFTEN (not always) that the artistry of the musician in question was usually not on the level of better known artists and that when one considers the reality of the music business (and it is precisely that), that lesser artists will not receive as much attention via bookings, recordings contracts and record sales. I stand by that assertion. However, and I said it then, there have been examples of artists deserving of wider recognition who did not receive that recognition for a variety of reasons, usually personal: drug use, difficult to work with, etc.

Alex has often posted obscure artists and, FOR ME, several (not all, and I said it at the time) simply weren’t on a level that interested me when one considers the vast number of recordings available by truly great players. Personally, I can’t imagine ever being “bored” with the existing supply of great recordings by great players. And I’m not talking about the greatest of the great either. Not every really good tenor player, for instance, is on the level of a Coltrane, or Rollins, but still rewarding to listen to….obviously. However, there are many levels below that and it gets to the point when one (I) says “what’s the point?”. Just to have something different? Even if it’s mediocre? Worse yet, NOT different, but totally derivative. No thanks .

Lastly, as time marched on many of the supposedly “obscure” players posted weren’t that obscure at all. For instance, look at recent posts. Howard McGhee and Eddie Harris, obscure?! I don’t think so.

Anyway, this subject would arise in discussion one way or another over the years and the term “Frogman’s rule” stuck, somehow. I’ve never used it myself. I hope this clarifies things somewhat and Happy Holidays to all.

That’s right, “The Frogman’s First Law”.  As far as (my?) Second Law” goes, well……..😊

Here’s a musician who certainly deserves to not be forgotten by today’s Jazz listeners, as he seems to have been. Not only a terrific baritone saxophonist, but he also had a successful career as a film and TV series composer (He also designed the cover art for several well known Jazz lps).  Who has heard of Gil Melle?

Glad you have come around to appreciate the greatness of KOB. Incredibly important recording; a real game changer. I remember the disputes here over KOB and the dismissal of it simply because it has become an audiophile fave. I’ll take my chances with those libel laws, but maybe you are a closet audiophile after all 😊.

All in good fun.

Outstanding! As far as I’m concerned, Hank Mobley is a very underrated player. When the subject of who the greatest tenor players are/were, Mobley is always outvoted by, of course, Coltrane, Rollins and Henderson. Putting style aside, when it comes to being able to telling a story, I don’t hear why he shouldn’t be alongside the “top three”.

Good one!  Actually, I can’t think of a bad Mobley record.  This one is a favorite; and with one of the best album titles ever:

Alex, well, like I said, I couldn’t think of a bad Mobley record.  There’s a good reason I couldn’t think of that one.  Some things are best forgotten 😊

Dion to Coltrane “Live At Birdland”.  Love it!

Maybe it’s me.

Interaction on an Internet forum is necessarily very limited and the anonymity that is part of it all changes all the usual “rules” of human interaction. In spite of all that I find it odd, even a little disappointing, that O-10’s absence from this, his own thread, doesn’t get more attention. Interaction, including arguments and a bit of vitriol, over the span of more than a decade on a subject so personal as favorite music leads to some type of “relationship”, however limited.

We all know how passionate O-10 is about Jazz and I find it hard to believe that even if he has simply decided to distance himself from the thread for whatever reason, that he wouldn’t take a peak once in a while, at least, Concern has been expressed on several occasions and there has been no response from him. Considering that we know he had health issues, it is not unreasonable to worry about the seriousness of the reason he has disappeared. So, I propose that this serve as a message to O-10 to respond and let us know how he is doing. At the vey least, use it as an opportunity for long time contributors and newcomers alike to revive the thread in his honor. I truly hope that “honor” is an overstatement.

To get things rolling:

Freddie Hubbard was amazing. If forced to pick, I would probably pick him for “favorite trumpet player”. Great record that shows what a monster player he was. Incredibly inventive and great clarity in his improvisation:

This time in tenor saxophone (!):

Did somebody say flute? Yes, same guy,  

A strong case could be made for the idea that this law (“rule”) is itself, and in fact, “digging a little deeper”…unless shown otherwise 😊.

My example of one exception to the law; one of the great unsung players:

Don’t disagree, but I’m sure you know it doesn’t work that way.  Gotta have a contract with BN first.  I do agree with your premise.  

Another of O-10’s faves…..the true original version this time. Pepper, not Ronnie, O-10! 😊. You out there, O-10?

O-10 once posted this recent version by the Mingus “tribute” Big Band thinking it was the original version which I posted above.  The original version features Pepper Adams on baritone.  The tribute big band version features Ronnie Cuber on baritone.  The pic for the link is deceptive.
 

Thanks for the tip on the Pepper recording, pjw!  I’ll check it out.  

On the subject of “influence” and Elvin Jones/Tony Williams. I think it is important when comparing players to not think too much in terms of superiority of perceived amount of “influence”.

Elvin and Williams were tremendously influential and copied by other drummers. But so were players like Philly Joe. Elvin and Williams would be the first to say it as Philly Joe was one of THEIR main influences. It’s a continuum. Jazz is always building on what came before stylistically and like any art form it reflects the time of its creation. Tommy Williams was heavily Rock influenced. He is considered by many to be the first Fusion drummer.. He was the perfect drummer for Miles’ “Second Great Quintet”. A stylistic period of Miles’ that clearly showed him headed toward a Fusion/Rock sensibility. Williams would not have been the perfect drummer for Miles’ “The Quintet”. I can’t imagine Miles’ “Cookin” without the feel and swagger that Philly Joe brought to the music.

Of course, that should read Tony Williams, not Tommy Williams .  Spellchecker gremlins😱

A style of saxophone playing that could be said to be “dated”, but the inventiveness and feel is on the same level as anything that came later.  Great story telling.  Just different and reflective of that time period.

@stuartk thanks the question.  Good one.  I’ll respond later today.

**** Is that Sanborn? ****

I can see why you may have thought so, but you’re right, no it’s not.  First, it’s a tenor, not alto; Sanborn never plays tenor.  However, its all Sanborn in style.  Sanborn developed a style that gave birth to countless “Sanborn clones”.  Mostly alto players, but many Pop/Funk tenor players also copped his style.  A style that is not notey at all, even minimalist, but very soulful.  He credits Hank Crawford and, are you ready?, Stevie Wonder’s harmonica playing for a lot of his vibe.  Early Sanborn is my favorite.  Very raw sound…..would never work for Bolero 😊

The saxophone was invented in 1846.  Pretty primitive.  Appropriate media 😊

Soprano trombone, sometimes called slide trumpet. Nice tenor player!

Is this it?

No wonder it sounds like Sanborn! The tenor player on the live version you posted plays Sanborn’s solo in the intro of this studio album version literally note for note. Probably Crawford’s request. Sometimes when an artist goes on tour they only take rhythm section and hire the rest of the band/orchestra in each city. They don’t always know what they’re going to get, so why mess with a good thing?

@stuartk , with respect (sincerely!), I think that you are “viewing” the process of the evolution of Jazz with “markers” that are too broad. I never said that the sound of the “second great quintet” was Fusion-like. I wrote:

*** A stylistic period of Miles’ that clearly showed him headed toward a Fusion/Rock sensibility ***.

“…headed toward…”. Now, obviously, to identify why it can be said that it is “headed toward” there must be some characteristics in the style of the compositions and the style of how they are played that points to a change and a departure from the then current general Jazz sensibility. That departure/change had begun a few years earlier still.

The reason KOB is such a landmark recording is that it changed everything. It ushered in modal Jazz. Most of the tunes on KOB have very simple chord progressions and those are based on “modes”. While standard Jazz tunes written up to the time of KOB might have up to two or three different chord changes in each and every measure of a thirty two measure chorus, in modal Jazz you might have one single chord change every eight measures. It was Miles’s way of freeing up the soloists from the harmonic constraints of complex chord changes. Well, what is one of the main identifying traits of Fusion (as being discussed here)? Very simple chord progressions and the use of modes. Sheer coincidence? It’s part of the continuum that is the evolution of the music and those changes happen over time in much finer increments than we often consider.

Then there is the change in the general approach to rhythm. By the late ‘50’s Jazz starts becoming less “swingy”. Less of a triplet feeling and closer (ultimately almost entirely) to a straight, more even, feel. This is reflected in the way that the players play. As always, what drives these changes has a lot to do with societal sensibilities as a whole. Artists are people too and they express what’s happening at the time. Tony Williams was a young Jazz drummer living in a time when R&R was taking off. A music with very even rhythmic feel, zero swing of the usual type. And he goes on to record projects that had very strong Rock elements. Is it any surprise that Williams would have a certain sensibility in his playing that was what Miles was looking for as he moved his music forward stylistically? I don’t think so. Herbie Hancock. Herbie went on to record a great deal in a funk/fusion/electronic groove. Wayne Shorter. Shorter went on to co-found probably the biggest name in Fusion, Weather Report. More coincidences??? No way! It had all been set in motion by the time that the music became overtly and obviously “FUSION”. Miles chose those particular players for a reason.

That is what I mean when I say Miles was “clearly headed toward a Fusion/Rock sensibility”. That’s the way it always works. Doesn’t matter the time period. In many general ways the same things can be said of the the evolution of Jazz from traditional/Dixieland to Swing, to Bebop, to the present.

Miles was a great musical genius. He was obviously the main driving force in his bands regardless of time period, but he chose players that played in a way that supported his broader musical vision at any point in his career.

Thanks for the dialogue. I enjoy your commentary,

Btw, perhaps I don’t understand this part of your question about Tony Williams’ first two Blue Notes. To me, “Lifetime” is full fledged Fusion by then.

Hadn’t planned on mentioning the cover art, but now that you mention the topic… Great cover art.  Like that of your post, with a vibe very in keeping with the vibe of the music.

I love this record. I post it a fraction of the times I listen to it. Outrageously good. Yes, that’s his feet playing bass (pedals)!

@pjw81563 I don’t know Dan Weiss personally, but I know his playing and he is very very good.  He has a great rep.  One of the best young drummers and part of the very hot and creative Brooklyn Jazz scene.  

Another of the OP’s faves.  Just don’t tell him Miles was the leader of the date ☺️. I’m not prepared to assume he is gone.  I hope he’s not and would prefer to think that, no matter what and where, he’s lurking about.

The OP, that is.

Outstanding!

It is a relatively new thing in Jazz for bass players to rise, as improvisers, to the level of the great piano or horn players. Not a criticism, bass players’ role in Jazz is primarily as time keepers and so the players necessarily focus on that aspect of Jazz playing. Even as that stereotype changed over time and bass players got more feature time to solo, there often could be (and can still be) a sense of disappointment in comparison to piano or horn. A few have been able to be on truly equal footing (IMO, of course) This guy was one of the first and probably the first to do more than keep time even when he wasn’t soloing. To keep time, but to do it as a conversation with the piano player. I don’t think he gets mentioned and remembered enough. Incredible player, Scott LaFaro.

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