I had forgotten that Tim Hagans played with Kenton in the 70’s. Wonderful player with an exceptionally inventive modern concept. I still have to chuckle at how much energy and debate has been spent here over the supposed death of “real” Jazz when we keep getting players like Tim Hagans. https://youtu.be/o3RI8844JEUVery interesting composer/arranger with unique voice as well. Odd title for this “Best Jazz Composition” Grammy nominated chart, but killer writing if one just lets go of preconceived notions of what big band writing “should” be about: https://youtu.be/9-ChtUF5o7g |
philbarone, whenever the names Shorter and Hubbard are mentioned I am definitely intrigued. What tune do you refer to? Not clear to me. Do you mean a version of “Street of Dreams”, or do you mean “Weaver of Dreams” from the incredible record “Ready For Freddie” with Wayne Shorter? Thanks for clarifying. https://youtu.be/0qG8g8bFO38 |
Got it. I had just posted some Art Pepper, so my mind went there instead. I knew something wasn’t right since Pepper’s funeral service was in CA.
But, what am I missing? Different version of which tune? “Free for all”? |
Re Mulgrew Miller and the Blues. Btw, very nice live clip with Miller by Schubert. Very soulful player! Not terribly surprising having grown up playing in the Church. Well, as Rok has pointed out many times, “No Blues, no Jazz”. As has also been pointed out, Jazz, and the Blues as well, is about the feeling with which it’s played more than anything else. Having said all that, with a couple of exceptions in specific spots (1:35, 2:43) where he gets very bluesy with what he plays (melodically), I don’t hear much that is unusually bluesy about Mulgrew’s chord voicings. They are beautiful, fairly classic, but very modern Jazz piano voicings loaded with tight dissonances. The feeling with which he plays them is another story, loaded with Blues feeling like it is with most truly great Jazz players; so, I understand Schubert’s reaction. Classic Blues piano chord voicings, (a longtime Jazz educator, Miller would often remind students, “Support the soloist, but don’t overwhelm him”) : https://youtu.be/610kYihV2To |
Working my way through recent posts. Thanks everybody!
Ledisi: Wow! Goes on the list. |
Re “Ne me quitte pas”: The Maysa clip didn’t play for me either. I found this one instead: https://youtu.be/d4sVeblPaa4Frankly, I don’t hear much Nina in either Ledisi’s or Maysa’s versions. But, is that the goal? To sound like Simone? I wouldn’t think so. Having said that, while I like Maysa’s I love Ledisi’s version. Maysa’s sounds to me a little too.….theatrical? Just me. She does the best job however with the French lyrics, not surprising given her Brazilian/Portuguese heritage. Nina. Not terribly comfortable with the French, but the most conversational, as if she really were speaking to her lover; even if she does seem to rush through the lyrics a bit. But truly wonderful: https://youtu.be/a5FjvWWsH-c |
Here’s one (American). Actually, two. Bob Mintzer is a genius and leads the band, but check out the first solo by Andy Hunter on trombone!
|
|
|
… and he would call that a good thing. |
|
|
Tony Williams was no “drummet”! 😊 |
**** Gotta wonder if he ever expressed being spellbound by geniuses other than Hendrix. Anyone know? ****
Based on what I’ve read and on hear say:
Gil Evans
Claude Debussy
Mike Bloomfield
Tony Williams, reportedly his favorite drummet.
Sly (“Sly and the Family Stone”)
and, surprising to me…Buddy Rich. He loved Buddy Rich
|
“birds of a feather” ?!
Certainly as far as public persona was concerned. But, musically? I don’t see (hear) it. A drummer who in spite of his virtuosity also had a certain “signature” in his sense of swing that to my ears was very different from Miles’. Rich, I hear as very rhythmically aggressive, playing very on top of the beat while Miles’ was rhythmically much more relaxed. Rich, technical perfection, always. Miles, could sound very rough around the edges as a part of the musical attitude that he sometimes tried to project. Hence my surprise and why I need to listen to more Rich and try to hear more of what Miles heard. |
Good comments, Mahgister!
To be clear, for me the names on the list don’t seem improbable at all. Not only is each of those musicians a virtuoso of one kind or another, they also fit what I understand to have been Miles’ constantly changing broad artistic aesthetic……except Buddy Rich, whose artistic persona seemes to me to not be a good fit with Miles’…..for me.
The contradiction is obviously in my mind and not Miles’. This goes to something that I have always felt is important to have….a certain amount of humility when listening and to not be too rigid with one’s opinions. Clearly, the message for me is that I have to listen to more Buddy Rich.
Regards.
|
**** Its no coincidence that the golden age of jazz - 1935 through 1965 - was also the golden age of boxing. ****
Intriguing comment, pjw, please elaborate. Thanks.
Btw, to be clear, I hope my comments don’t give the impression that I am a Buddy Rich “detractor”; I’m not. While he may not be my favorite drummer he was clearly a great drummer. He had a certain style which interestingly is very different from Mel Lewis’ (thanks for the clip, I had seen it) who is a favorite.
|
Thanks, pjw. But, why “not a coincidence”? I thought that your suggestion was that there were reasons why both disciplines coincided. I was curious what those might be.
|
That really is a great live “Moanin”. I believe, however, that it’s Lee Morgan not Freddie. Great playing! |
Agree. Also, he spends a lot of time on the high register at the beginning of his solo; rather unusual for Morgan who really wasn’t a great high note player. I can understand the “strident” comment. |
|
**** Might be just me , but seems to me almost all bands do their best in Copenhagen , maybe the girls. **** Yes, the girls………. and, the pants 😊 https://youtu.be/xAz_t2Ybvmc |
Actually, 11. The Jazz Queen is worth far more than that. $2.3T is a bargain for that kind of infrastructure 😊. |
One heck of a way of “staying away from politics”. Oh, but if only they were “good intentions”…..! Sorry, couldn’t resist. I’m slipping. I have now violated one of my own rules. See, keegiam10 we all have brain farts on occasion; of one kind or another. So, no worries. Good to see you posting again. Nice retort, btw. 😊 https://youtu.be/TRFta9DAdlM |
Since I have been given the honor of being quoted please allow me to clarify my comment since, honor given aside, the comment has not been correctly understood. Contrary to the accusation , I never said that, on the solo in question, Morgan spent too much time playing in the high register; nor, did I say what register he should be playing in. My comment was strictly a statement of fact. Morgan, great as he was, was not a great high note player and has never been considered to be one. Were one to speak to trumpet players that comment would be corroborated. That fact is no indication of the quality of his solo which was great as always. “Perfect”? A purely subjective call and I suspect that as is the case with most great artists, Morgan would be the first to say that it was not perfect. “One of the greatest solos in Jazz history”? That comment would probably piss Morgan off. Great improvisers will often exploit their own technical shortcomings in order to create tension in the emotional content of a solo….a good thing, musically. I suspect that “strident” is exactly how he wanted to sound at the beginning of his solo when he “spent a lot of time on the high register”. I hope that clarifies. https://youtu.be/zg9uf84hzfg |
Sorry, O-10; sorry that my explanation did not serve to clarify things for you. As always, and for the sake of good (better?) will in the thread, I would encourage you to consider how heavy handed and insulting some of your comments come across. Particularly ironic in this case since you, yourself, did not know that it was Morgan playing. Peace. Interesting recordings that may clarify best of all. Featuring both Morgan and Hubbard, I think the only time they recorded together: https://youtu.be/UBtqMKx28Rchttps://youtu.be/_2ZiDF8GDPU |
Saw that one coming! 😊
Mickey: Your nose is broken.
Rocky Balboa: How does it look?
Mickey: Ah, it’s an improvement.
|
|
|
Slow down, stewartk! I think you got something (or someone) mixed up. What post are you referring to? Can’t think of ever referring to a Scofield recording as a must have. I do like his work, including his more commercial things; and yes I am familiar with those, but thanks. |
|
|
To be able to play the oboe with such intonation at 10 years of age is remarkable. To be able to feel and know how to turn a phrase at his age is amazing! God bless him. If I were to learn that he also makes his own reeds I would fall off my chair. |
|
I agree that this (bw) great version of “Tunisia” with Blakey was probably played on tour. The smaller drum set is what Blakey would have been taking on tour, for practical reasons. However, I think that it was in Brazil, not Europe. That “Tunisia” is from the same concert as the earlier “Moanin” with the great, but mysteriously controversial Lee Morgan solo. Reading between the lines, and looking at the listed copyright info on the link one can see that it was licensed by a Brazilian media company. Add to that how all the players pick up percussion instruments at one point; a bit of showmanship as a nod to Brazilian culture where practically everyone, musician or not, plays a percussion instrument. I would guess it was a televised concert.
Two great versions of “Tunisia”, but apples and oranges and enjoyable in very different ways. The first with Timmons, Morgan et al: classic feel, relaxed, with fabulous solos, and clearly a Blakey vibe. Also, and as Rok points out feeling a little “organized”. The second (color): definitely more boisterous and very exciting. Maclean kills with, for me, the best solo of all. The feel is entirely different. Almost like that of a jam session. Much more to the Latin side of things: faster, and very forward and on top of the beat; almost hectic. The presence of Hidalgo on congas definitely adds to that vibe.
However, I think the title is a little misleading. Blakey did have a working big band in the 50’s and recorded an album with that name, but to the best of my knowledge he didn’t have a working big band during the period of this concert. It seems to me to be some special event/concert with a lot of big names including a lot of the young lions at the time. An all star show of sorts with a lot of Blakey alumni. The feel is a lot less “Blakey” than the other clip and less that of a working band; not surprising since he lays out and other drummers play about half the time. To quote the last remaining aficionado on JFA: “more does not mean better”.
Nice clips; especially the first. |
|
Glad you liked the Ray Charles clips, mahgister and keegiam and beautifully put comments. Amazing genius and, as mahgister states, “on a spiritual journey”. Comments like that may seem hyperbolic, but there is no better way to describe and explain the extraordinary musical power. One of those artists whose musical force can completely transcend and overcome any musical shortcomings in the accompanying band. Of course, the extent of a musical shortcoming is a relative thing and when one is talking about an inspired genius no one will be on quite the same level. Still……. “Song For You” is a perfect example and goes to one of my comments re the “Tunisia” clips: the difference between the sound and feel of a working band and that of a more loosely put together group of musicians put together for a special event. There is no doubt in my mind that had Ray had his own drummer for that live performance that the performance would have been taken to an even higher level as is the case on the other two live clips in which Ray’s big band was playing. Yet, Ray was like a musical lightning bolt on stage and one can just ignore the drummer’s uninspired groove. The groove came almost entirely from Ray; an amazing thing particularly at such a slow tempo. Speaking of slow tempo. Btw, one of my favorite Ray stories is told in the first listener comment: https://youtu.be/zHZnt8S6Xzc |
O-10, I fail to see how a solo on a live version of the tune has anything to do with the solo on the record. Having said that, I will try and clarify even further by rewriting that sentence:
** “Tunisia” is from the same concert as the earlier “Moanin” with the great, but mysteriously controversial (HERE!) Lee Morgan solo. **
No additional controversy intended when I wrote the first version of the comment. It was done simply to explain which clip I was referring to. So I think we can move on.
|
O-10, you know by now that I enjoy dialogue as long as it does not turn contentious and insulting.
Of course there is a significant difference between the two solos; and yes the solo in question appears on the live recording, but not the record. They are entirely different solos. As they should be. That is the whole point of Jazz improvisation, no?
I never felt his solo was controversial in any musical sense. It became controversial HERE for some reason which, as I see it, was totally unnecessary: your objection to what I wrote re the character of a part of that particular solo. My opinion, not yours; or are we not allowed to have opinions that may differ from yours?
|
pjw, I appreciate your effort at peace and equanimity, but I think the issue is not the differences of opinion and their relative merit, but the inability to have and express an opinion without the retort being abrasive and condescending. Expressing the details of why one holds a particular opinion should be an opportunity to, if not learn, understand a different point of view. Blanket dismissal of an opinion without offering any specific reasons why won’t hold water and is an opportunity lost because there is so much going on in this music. For instance, you wrote:
**** frogman the studio solos on a lot of jazz albums are improvised just as in a live setting. ****
Of course. I hope I didn’t write anything that caused you to think that I thought differently. I said nothing of the sort. So, wouldn’t it be best to be able to have a dialogue about the reasons why the disconnect may exist? It does all go directly to the music. I think so.
|
Interesting comments, mahgister. I share your feelings about these two masters. Shorter in particular is a favorite. He is also one of the greatest and most interesting Jazz composers. A true genius. One of the most interesting things about Shorter is how much his playing changed over the course of his career. Not necessarily in overall concept, but in how his playing became more and more economical; as if he found ways to say what he had to say with fewer and fewer notes. One of the most expressive of saxophone players, he could express so much emotion with one or two notes. https://youtu.be/CYg_3pQN-LUhttps://youtu.be/ydsqGRYqW88I don’t feel there is a “greatest” among the very top trumpet players. Morgan was certainly one of the greatest. **** And Morgan for me own something very light and heartful from Armstrong and something which is the brain of Miles Davis.... **** Exactly! Great comment. The “light and heartful” is what I hear as the infectious swagger in his playing. https://youtu.be/uHd0qP4UKX4https://youtu.be/eRA8EOR7Nm0 |
|
|
**** Perhaps he should reconsider this statement. ****
Easy, but usually foolish to question a genius on the very topic of his genius without digging a little deeper into the full meaning of something he has said.
Personally, I like showers ……and I don’t like lists 😊 |
“Lists”……a joke related to recent comments. Has nothing to do with your post……mostly.
I think you miss the point…..surprising for the last remaining true JA. The point is that Jazz doesn’t always have to sound like a traditional form of Jazz….the way it is “supposed” to sound. It is an ever evolving art form. That you miss the point is further highlighted by the suggestion that a Jazz artist of such stature would “distance himself from Jazz”. Break boundaries? Absolutely. Distance himself? No way. “Dis” Jazz? Quite the contrary. It is about honoring one of the most basic tenets of the art form. That is not to say that there aren’t impostors. Wayne Shorter is not one of them. Would be helpful to understand that aspect of the mindset of a great creative artist.
**** The one exception to this phenomenal is Wynton. We should all be thankful that someone sure knew what they were doing when he got the job at Lincoln Center. ****
If you only knew just how close part of the real reasons for this would be to incurring the wrath of Tammy, were they to be written here 🤔
|
I think these WS quotes give a glimpse into that mindset and the man:
** I always say that music is a small drop in the ocean of life. I was told a long time ago that your horn, or whatever instrument you play, is a means to be in the world.**
** Jazz is a fighter. The word 'jazz' means to me, 'I dare you. Let's jump into the unknown!' **
** Clouds float in the same pattern only once. **
** Dealing with the unknown, the unexpected, is a reflection for me musically of what's happening in the world, because people are learning how to dialog with each other without any past strategy or any kind of formula from the past. **
** Play and write music the way you want the world to be. **
|
No worries, fast friends 🙄
However, what I am suggesting to you, Rok, is that you assume that when those Jazz greats say something about the music that you don’t agree with that they are dong so for opportunistic or insincere reasons. I would reconsider that. These are very deep individuals and their commitment to the art form is equally deep. I think “mere” needs better context.
|
Please explain just how it helps Jazz, the music and its relevance, overall, to hold such a strict view of its “definition”; as if doing so would, somehow, bring it back to its (your) “glory days”. It is clear that many, including many giants in the field, don’t share that view. So, why is it so important to drive the point home? Instead of commenting on the music you make an assumption and a blanket statement about what the motivations of artists might be without knowing anything about those motivations. Why does it matter? Not liking certain music does not automatically mean that it is not good music. Not to mention that music is always a reflection of the times. Don’t shoot the messenger. What you are objecting to has been happening in Jazz since its inception. I do encourage you to consider that you are seriously short changing a seriously great artist’s later work.
“Bebop is Chinese music” - Louis Armstrong |
**** But what will be our understanding of Bach without Schoenberg or Scriabin,,, ****
Exactly! That says it all.
|
Nice joke.
Not the first time that Solti has been the subject of a joke. True story:
Solti was known for having a very small beat pattern; not to mention little sense of humor. Early in his tenure with the Chicago Symphony, during a rehearsal one of the bass players was complaining that he couldn’t see his pattern clearly. Apparently the bass player got to the point of getting “snarky” (😊) and set up binoculars to look in Solti’s direction. A bit later in the rehearsal Solti held up a small piece of paper in the direction of the basses. The bass player zoomed in and on the note was written:
”You are fired”
|
