Good points rok. Many folks, possibly including o10, only knew of Pops from seeing "High Society" or hearing "Hello Dolly". Well, that was the Hollywood version, not the real man. If you read about his life you may come to understand something of all he went through to become successful. Can anyone say they don't hear the feeling come through in this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kt3HUeg--FQ |
pjw, yes, that DVD is for the same Newport Festival concert. I saw the original movie while in college in the ’60s. It introduced me to a few musicians I was not yet familiar with, and some of the visual effects were very fitting with the music -- rather impressionistic. At least twice here I posted a link to Anita O’Day’s performance from that concert, one I consider a highlight of her career.
My biggest criticism of the film was it left me wanting to see/hear the full performance from favored musicians. Also I wasn’t sure why Chuck Berry and Mahalia Jackson were included in a jazz festival, although I respected their music otherwise.
And frog, thanks for your considered response. I expected no less from you. ;^)
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The credits give it away, it's NKC. Anyway, my comment before reading that was that Cole was more appropriate to the time period, being older than Oscar. But I did hear a few Oscar similarities.
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acman, thanks for those postings. Many new/young musicians I'm not familiar with. In addition, one of those links led me to finding this, a brief "school" in jazz piano by the great Oscar Peterson - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ec-FrnaU0rs |
acman, thanks for the Coltrane post. From the other listings along the right hand side it seems maybe the entire album is now available on YouTube. My local jazz FM station featured it last week and gave away a few copies.
nsp, my reference to concerns about new talent was mainly tongue-in-cheek. Not so much here but I've seen a few articles saying jazz is dying due to the lack of new talent. I don't happen to agree.
And like you and others, I certainly heard references to RTF in the Kawaguchi cut. Nothing wrong with that, it is somewhat of a jazz tradition (at least for some musicians) to quote other tunes inside a solo.
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o10, I'm sorry you feel the need to continue your dispute with frogman. He mentioned being on a very long flight to Asia so perhaps he has not returned home yet? Who knows if he's even had continual internet connections?
I for one hope he does return to these discussions. My understanding is that he is a professional musician. Clearly he knows more about the technical aspects of music than I do, and likely many others here as well. Since I don't have any musical education I can't always understand his comments or explanations, but I often learn something within my limited range of comprehension. And for myself, learning is a major benefit from this post. Sometimes that can be an introduction to artist unknown to me, other times an album that I'm not familiar with by a known musician. Still other times the discussion here explains a context, history, influence, or technical aspect of a given number or album. For that I thank not only frogman but all of you with enough jazz knowledge to fill in some blanks. I enjoy that all and find it personally enriching.
In other news, I'm enjoying a Louie Armstrong marathon on my favored local jazz station today, being the 4th. For those of you who might not be fans and know about this Satch "adopted" the 4th of July, 1900 as his birthday. One more reason to celebrate today!
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Thanks for that link frog. Here's another link to Webster, this time with Gerry Mulligan, another major favorite of mine. I just happened to play this album recently. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dRqDktqWUYalex, this is the only Handy album I have - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrppyREk4FAInteresting that there was so much disagreement about the sax intro on the Mingus Big Band album. I have a couple of those Mingus tribute band albums but not that specific one so can't reference the line up if Handy played on that one or not? |
Many thanks o10 for bringing this great artist up again. When I began listening to jazz on my own in high school (separate from the Sachmo and others I'd heard my dad playing), the Dave Brubeck Quartet was an early favorite. Their first album I bought was "Gone With The Wind", not "Take Five" which was the introduction for so many folks (both released in 1959). And today while "Take Five" continues to lead in popularity, aided by numerous reissues, that is not the album I'd recommend to anyone looking for an introduction to Brubeck's music. In stead, I'd suggest "The Dave Brubeck Quartet at Carnegie Hall". My choice is for two reasons -- it includes more of his popular numbers, including those from "Take Five", plus it offers that special energy that sometimes comes from a live performance. Both the musicians and the audience were into it that evening. My suggestion comes from someone owning nearly 20 Brubeck albums. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFrnCnbEJMQ&list=PL64D93478E0879D5BNow for a story I've shared online, but possibly not here. Many years ago one of my friends from our audio club said Brubeck was coming to perform with our local symphony orchestra. Knowing I was a jazz fan he ask if I wanted to order tickets to attend? At that point Brubeck was in his 80s and I'd had the good fortune to see him live a few time prior to that. So I declined, saying I didn't want to be disappointed by one of my musical heros who could no longer stand up to his established standard of performance due to age. Well, my mistake! I did have friends who attended, and their reports as well local media reviews all raved about the performance. Apparently DB still had it so long as he toured. |
As a fan of Brubeck for several decades, I'm well aware of the criticism he received. But "No soul, no jazz"? I just don't understand that. I've heard plenty of emotion, drive, and thus soul in many of his recordings.
This may be an oversimplification but I believe much of that criticism came from two factors. One, much of his playing was melodic enough (especially when joined by Desmond) that it could be appreciated by a broader audience than just those favoring straight ahead jazz. Thus he was more commercially successful and so possibly resented by those who hadn't reached that level of popularity. Second, I suspect many musicians and critics couldn't accept the fact that he seemed to have come from a music conservatory rather than up from the streets earning his trade in bars and road houses. The latter included those claiming no soul in his playing.
To my ear he was talented as a player, composer, and explorer of new boundaries. He could swing, play ballads, honor tradition with stride references, verge into avant-garde, and how many other musicians devoted as much creative energy into new directions as Brubeck did with time signatures?
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acman, thanks for those links. It was great to see a reply that actually shed some light on the subject at hand.
BTW, for those who read those links but are not familiar with Miles' famous objections to Monk's playing, I'm pretty sure that happened during the sessions for his "Bags Groove" album. |
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We've skipped on from the Jamal link but I really enjoyed that updated version. A couple of his albums were among those I bought when I first got into jazz.
As usual, I have a little story. I never heard Jamal live. In college in the early '60s friends and I went to see him with great anticipation. Now after so many years I don't remember if there was an opening act, but I don't think so. Anyway, when Jamal came out and sat at the piano he only played a few notes then stopped. After some words with his trio partners he hit a few more notes. At that he got up and walked off the stage. No amount of clapping, whistling, or even booing could bring him out again. Finally whoever it was who'd announced the group came out again to say the show was cancelled. I can only guess the piano was out of tune, but wasn't there a sound check or warm up, even in those days, before the audience came in? Just a huge disappointment.
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o10, your Ali Khan posts reminded me of a wonderful musical introduction and experience from many years ago. Sometime later in his career Ravi Shankar bought a home near San Diego. In the 1980s he opened his house for concerts, featuring touring Indian musicians he respected. I had been familiar with Shankar prior to that but only recently expanded my listening to other artists from the Middle East. So I attended many of those concerts and it was an appreciation expanding experience. Ravi never performed at any of those concerts although he was nearly always present. One of those artists was V. M. Bhatt, who later made a wonderful album with Ry Cooder - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKE3gDpgd2cAll this was my push to explore what is now called World Music. Jazz remains my overall favored genre but I do enjoy many others too. BTW, for those with only a passing recollection of Shankar, his two daughters became well respected musicians. Anoushka Shankar followed her father and became an accomplished sitar player and composer. Her better known half-sister is Nora Jones who many jazz fans may know. (She may record on Blue Note but I won't defend her as a jazz artist.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_Bry7hN8Cw |
acman, thanks much; from that two further thoughts.
One, I'm often fascinated some of these Indian percussionists can get so much variety and nuance out of just two drums.
Second, I'm almost afraid to suggest it, but Ravi plays with soul. Just watch his face! ;^)
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o10, you were apparently quoting Redman, but I don't agree with "there are certain things like swing, that are crucial components of jazz". When a performance swings that can be enjoyable and even stimulating. But in my opinion that is not essential to being considered jazz. I've always used a measure of a sense of improvisation. That's one reason I enjoy solo or small group more than big band, there's more room for improvisation. Here's an example of something that doesn't "swing" but clearly has an expression of jazz in my perspective. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nv2GgV34qIgOthers may agree or disagree, I don't mind. |
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For those of you too young to get the humor that frog referenced with Sun Ra, here's the Disney original. Dumbo and Timothy got into some bubbly and this was the result - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcZUPDMXzJ8Several Disney songs have been "adapted" by jazz musicians, including Miles and Brubeck, but I never would have guessed Sun Ra. ;^) |
Funny thing frog, the first time I saw Triplets when it was released I thought it was innovating, fun, and had great music, But when I saw it again about a year ago I didn’t think nearly so much of it and became bored near the end.
Still, lots of sly references. Everything from Harpo to Django to Josephine Baker to Fred Astaire. And that was just in your promo segment.
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keegiam, now yer talkin’!
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o10, "we won't live long enough to hear it all".
That's a sobering thought, but one which us older aficionados must face. As I believe I've mentioned here my music collection includes around 3,000 LPs and maybe 500 CDs. Because of my broad tastes they include several genres of music, not just jazz.
There is no reasonable way that I'm going to listen to all that now at my age. That thought resulted in two decisions. First, to practically eliminate the purchase of any additional recordings. Yes, there may be newer, or older music I don't have, which I might enjoy owning. But would that enjoyment be enough to push aside an old favorite? It would need to be something exceptional.
The second thing is to reduce my collection by at least half. That will still leave a sizable collection I know, but hopefully it will allow a good selection of favorites to suit any listening mood.
So I've begun the arduous task of sorting my collection, which has not been as easy as I thought it might be. I'm nearly finished with the jazz and blues CDs. If anyone is interested contact me privately, I'll have a list and they'll be reasonably priced. Like o10, my favorite jazz came out to the '50s and '60s, but my collection is broader than that.
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acman, I like Russell but only have that by Gil Evans.
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zerobias, no surprise if the written score and Mingus' performance didn't match up. In real jazz it would never be played the same way twice. ;^)
Anyway, that must have been a wonderful experience to hear Marsalis and his band live and in rehearsal. A few years ago I had the opportunity to listen in while a local big band jazz group (all professional musicians) rehearsed. For anyone who is an audio hobbyist that is a sure way to disappointment. No way our systems at home come close to the power of an 18-piece jazz band live from no more than 20' away!
Also, did you mean Marsalis and the Jazz at Lincoln Center Orchestra?
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pjw, my enthusiasm for Billy Cobham was based mainly on seeing him live with the Mahavishnu Orchestra in the early '70s. They played in a small (200 or so capacity) local club and it was one of the most memorable concerts I've experienced. We had a front row table and the energy and interchanges among the group made that happen. Cobham was like a coiled spring that night except he never seemed to unwind! He clearly drove the other four musicians (all pretty good in their own right, especially McLaughlin) with increasing energy.
As a result I bought a couple of albums with him as the leader. While I enjoyed them too at the time they haven't held up for me like some other music of the period. While not jazz, for those curious about such things they were "Spectrum" and "Crosswinds".
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o10, that's one of my favorite Mingus numbers. You may remember many years ago the opening was used behind a (Ford?) TV commercial. An older gentleman was getting dressed up in what may have been a retirement home. A young guy, likely his son, came and picked him up and they drove off. Haitian Fight Song played a perfect accompaniment. It was a rare commercial I enjoyed watching. I read this is the version used for the commercial but couldn't find a link for that so the whole number will have to do! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0E1XTqUlCcAlso, for your love of Adams try this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIu87qCZnJ4 |
pjw, I'm a fan of both Teagarden and Getz but didn't know their connection. Thanks for that.
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o10, I'll guess not everyone here enjoyed your "Detroit" tale as much as I did. I grew up in MI but didn't visit Motor City often until I was in college. Then the love of jazz drew me in.
I don't remember the 20 Grand, but Detroit had a number of small bars/clubs which we called organ bars. That was because so many of them had something like the Hammond B3 in residence and there were enough local musicians to play them, in addition to occasional name jazz musicians. Baker's Keyboard Lounge is the only one I now remember.
But my favorite was the Minor Key. The name was a double entendre with the reference to music as well as not having a liquor license. They consistently brought in major stars and I heard Miles, Coltrane, Cannonball, Silver, The Jazz Messengers, Getz, etc. there. One advantage was it was a small club so no seat was far from the stage.
The Minor Key was located in the heart of black Detroit (as I recall, Dexter & Burlingame near where the riots broke out in 1967 which destroyed the club). The first set would begin around 9 PM and up to half of the audience would be white students from area colleges. The second set would see that reduced to about 20-25% white. By the third set, usually after midnight, we would be the only non-blacks in the audience. There was never any problem. I guess we were accepted because we obviously cared about the music to be there at that time.
In fact, because of the small size of the room patrons often ended up sharing tables. The club only offered soft drinks or "set ups" and a little food. Many times our table companions would offer to share their flask, something they all seemed to bring. Being underage that was fine with us.
The Detroit of today is far different. But I have friends there and also reading articles I've learned there is a resurgence movement, at least in the central area. How much of that continues the great jazz heritage of the city I can't say.
BTW, she lived in Pontiac but drove a Buick? ;^)
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rok, I expect that meant Juilliard students are expected to study classical composers, not Monk. ;^)
acman, thanks for the additions. I almost included something from Ellis but decided I’d offered enough. But also to paraphrase that Mexican beer (cerveza) commercial, I don’t always enjoy big band, but when I do I listen to Basie!
pjw, on another audio site I have a different moniker -- M3 lover. I receive occasional questions about that, assuming it relates to a performance automobile or German camera. But that is an audio site so I chose a musical reference -- three of my favorite jazz artists: Miles, Monk, and Mingus. I later considered I should have used M4 so I could have included Mulligan, but it was too late. So o10, you know why I linked the same Mulligan album. Anyway, I likely have 25-30 Monk albums, mostly on vinyl. I even have an original poster from a Monk concert I attended in Honolulu in 1965. Yes, I’m a fan boy!
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o10, nice addition. I don't have anything else by Lande but have enjoyed this one for years.
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o10, "we have so many gems in our collections that we forget to play some of them until reminded". I agree.
And that is a reason I'm beginning to cull my entire music collection. But for me that exercise relates to my age. I really can't imagine listening to everything I own at this point in my life, particularly when the favorites continue to get multiple plays. That's not a complaint. I'm grateful to own so many discs I enjoy.
But a downside to this site for me is hearing so many other wonderful examples I'd enjoy too if I had them. But if I'm really going to reduce the collection then I must remain disciplined. All you younger folks be thankful you (likely) have more time to enjoy new finds.
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o10, your sidemen comment is spot on. That is one of the reasons I enjoy many of my older favorite LPs again and again, I continue finding nuances not noticed in an initial playing. Also, while I greatly enjoy "Somethin' Else", I'm sure there was more to the story of how Cannonball was credited as the leader. Some contract arrangement with Blue Note? Consider this comment from Wiki, "The album was recorded during Adderley's membership in the Miles Davis Sextet of 1958, and is one of the few post-1955 appearances of Miles Davis as a sideman. Indeed, Davis plays several of the first solos, composed the bluesy title track and, according to the liner notes, chose most of the material." That doesn't sound like Miles was a sideman to me. ;^) Still, that should be on most everyone's top jazz albums list. Also, Dakota's "Cry Me A River" sounds like it came from a Bond soundtrack, not that's theres anything wrong with that. |
o10, it wasn't my intent to "fault" her performance of "Cry Me A River" so much as to offer the comment that the presentation reminded me of a Bond theme song, for example Shirley Bassey. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6D1nK7q2i8I |
Now, concerning this discussion comparing SE with KOB.
It’s one thing to talk about a given album’s rating after the release. I didn’t research SE’s Downbeat rating for example, or any others, but I can believe SE was very well received.
However it is a different matter to judge any recording as being considered a "classic". I think most might agree that requires the test of time.
With that thought there are two jazz albums which stand out above the others as having received both critical acclaim and broad popularity sufficient to be called classics -- KOB and Take Five. Note this is not saying they are the "best" jazz albums ever, but two which met both elements of classification. SE has maintained some popularity but comes up a little short in this respect.
On a personal level I will admit that the continued popularity for KOB does surprise me somewhat. I’ve loved it since buying my first copy in 1960. But it is out of the mainstream of what is generally considered to be popular jazz. It’s not funky, doesn’t include a driving beat or something make the listener want to get up and dance. But it really is like an onion; so many layers to be pealed away and invite deeper exploration.
Just my perspective. Further discussion welcomed as always. |
o10, how did you think I didn’t believe SE was well received? Read my post again, I said "but I can believe SE was very well received."
I do own, appreciate, and enjoy the album. But it seems we hold different perspectives over whether SE or KOB is our personal favorite. Certainly no harm in that. ;^)
Anyway, here’s a quote from a fairly well-respected jazz musician. It shouldn’t dictate what you or anyone else prefers, but it does add creditability to the stature of KOB. "I play Kind of Blue every day - it’s my orange juice." Quincy Jones |
"stop and think people". Very good advice rok, which you might take yourself.
Who stated that KOB and SE were the two best jazz albums in creation? I certainly didn't, and I don't believe o10 did either.
My understanding was this discussion debated which one deserved the highest classics status. So that was a consideration of only two and no attempt to say either one was the number one jazz album of all time, that would be a ranking not a rating. BTW, an impossible task in my opinion.
o10 and I had a friendly discussion over which of those two we prefer, or possibly rate higher as a classic. That certainly doesn't exclude other fine albums from classic status. But I would never pretend to proclaim any one album as the best in creation. |
o10, many great albums on your list, even if several of them are repeats. ;^)
And while I don't feel qualified to identify a "X best list", I'll further admit my own personal favorites could change from one day to the next. How's that for confusing the issue?
Regarding Detroit, while I never lived there I did grow up in Michigan. Like so many others in souther MI the majority of my family had jobs related in some fashion to the auto industry. It's clear the downfall of Detroit can't be separated from the downfall of the American automotive industry. There were two major factors in that. First was the oil crisis in the '70s and the Big Three's* failure to adapt quickly with more fuel efficient and environmentally friendly models. The second was the change in Big Three management to MBA "bean counters" in place of the experienced engineers and sales people who had traditionally evolved to top management positions in all three companies. So for those reasons efficiency and quality suffered and European and Far East companies filled the gap.
Once Detroit's (automotive) dominance was lost it has not been able to reclaim it. As o10 suggested, other US cities also suffered loss of population and economic strength. This has been a result of evolution in technological change.
There is though an interesting aside. Two years ago I visited to attend the Woodward Avenue Dream Cruise, possibly the largest non-racing automotive event in the US. That took me not only to the City of Detroit but to several of the suburban cities. They looked prosperous and healthy. But we don't read about that, only of the bad times and decay in Detroit.
Now back to our regularly scheduled broadcast.
* GM, Ford, Chrysler for aficionados who are not also automotive buffs.
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mary jo, that was funny. Hope others caught it too. ;^)
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frog, I expect you know that Monk was not given the middle name Sphere at birth, he adopted it as an adult. There was a family connection to the name Speer and he liked the idea with that name he could not be called square. ;^)
That is mentioned in Kelley's bio of him.
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o10, I’ve been fascinated by several percussionists I’ve heard in Middle-Eastern music. The variety and nuance they can produce from one or two small drums is amazing, plus the speed and duration of a line. For your groove today this is the most jazz oriented example I can offer. I apologize for repeating it, but hey, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hbuleX_PDQOutside of jazz there are a number of wonderful recordings on Kavi Alexander’s label Water Lily Acoustics by leading artists you might watch for. Also, I had to share the link of "Ancient Future" with a friend who has some Native American blood. I'm sure she'll enjoy that so thanks. |
inna and o10, I've had a similar experience with a genetic memory. Long time readers of Stereophile may remember when Sam Tellig promoted his tours of Russia. I was part of his last one in the fall of 1991. Part of the tour included a couple of days in Odessa. There I had a strange feeling of familiarity, even thinking I might recognize someone on the street. Well my paternal great-grandfather was from Ukraine, so who knows?
And o10 you likely know you can identify some of your heritage through DNA testing.
Concerning Django, an artist I've enjoyed since my initial exposure to jazz, who is to say even if Jimmy Reese was instrumental (!) in introducing American jazz to Europe, that he influenced Reinhardt? Or that Reinhardt even ever heard him? That's really going out on a limb. Frog's "My brother!" reference has much more substance.
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The "My brother" reference was a quote from Django after hearing Satchmo's music. That sounded pretty substantial to me about his preferences. Is there another quote where he suggests admiration for or influence from Reese?
This is not the first time rok has taken issue with something I posted. Discourse is welcomed, but only when done in a civil and constructive manner. So hereafter I'll refrain from commenting on anything he says, regardless of my reaction to it.
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frog, great stuff, particularly "Django's Tiger". The only problem for a comparison was he utilized too many fingers to fret! ;^)
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pjw, your link to Coltrane/Byrds didn't work. I remember a McGuinn interview on some PBS program where he talked about the influence of Coltrane but I couldn't find that. Here it is at least mentioned in the notes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yanXhomzFd8There has been a fair bit of jazz influence on rock, Joni Mitchell, Jeff Beck, even Brian Wilson (The Four Freshmen influenced his love for harmony singing) are just a few examples. |
frog -
I could offer lots of other comments but I want to get in Miles’ "Elevator to the Scaffold", soundtrack recording to the French film.
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acman, that "Basie's Blues" was a great example that he could play fast, yet still seem so relaxed while doing it.
That tribute to Buddy Guy amazed me. Hope this is not narrow thinking but I associate the blues with a smaller setting where the performer is basically "confiding" their troubles with the audience. A smoky room with small tables and an actual bar seems right. And yet Heart and Beck pulled it off in that big auditorium! All you had to do was watch Guy's face to confirm that.
In general, lots of great posts lately, keep it up guys and gals.
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