O-10, please take a chill pill. It remains a mystery to me why it is that you find it so necessary to be unnecessarily negative and provocative at times.
I offered a perfectly reasonable possible reason for why you may have been unaware of Jerry Dodgion. You later asked for an honest assessment from ALL here of something you posted and I gave it. I didn’t like it. Honest assessment; nothing more, nothing less. You then asked for an assessment from ME specifically about another clip. I liked it; nothing more, nothing less. You then asked for another assessment from ALL here of a different recording; and, NO, you did not ask me or pjw specifically for comment. Yet, somehow you find it to be some sort of personal affront that twelve mostly NIGHTIME (!!!) hours later I have not responded? Are you serious? Are we under obligation to respond according to your time line; or, respond at all? Really?!
I will offer a couple of comments in the interest of being “cordial” and will abstain from writing what I might write had I not had my morning coffee yet 🤔:
1. If you want a speedier response from any one of us, try addressing that person, or persons, specifically in your request.
2. If being cordial is really a priority for you and you want to set an example of the sort of protocol that meets your personal lofty standards of forum behavior, try responding/commenting YOURSELF to a clip that was offered in response to yours; AS I DID (Bobby Hutcherson, “Jerry on flute”). IOW, try leading by example.
3. Re my horrible lack of response to your clip: May I remind you that it was I who first posted “Forest Flower” (or, any Charles Lloyd for that matter) here years ago. That should be enough response and indication of how I feel about the recording. Classic recording. (Btw, sometime later you yourself posted “Forrest Flower” claiming it was Buddy Collette on tenor; but that’s a different story).
So, let’s try and be a bit more truly “cordial”. Shall we?
Peace.
|
O-10, I really would prefer to move on, but I won’t be accused of not being truthful. Can we move on now, please? Peace. ********************************************************************** orpheus10 OP8,380 posts 06-16-2016 4:11pm Frogman, if you are going to correct someone, you had better get your facts straight; especially if that someone is "Orpheus". The "Forest Flower" I presented was the one with "The Chico Hamilton Quintet"; a photograph of the players is on the cover of the album: Chico Hamilton is striding across the cover, and Buddy Collette is kneeling with his horns in front of him, while Jim Hall, has his guitar on his knee; that's just the top row of photographs, the rest of the players are in the second row. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF_Kwdmg1CgHere it is again, for your pleasure; this time, check the photo's on the album cover. Enjoy the music. Report this frogman6,276 posts 06-16-2016 5:22pm That is incorrect: the recording that plays when you play the YouTube link that you provided is from a different recording than shown by that album cover. This was a mistake by the poster of that link; and you. That album cover is for a recording titled "Spectacular" Featuring Buddy Collette. "Forest Flower" doesn’t even appear on that record. Most importantly, two seconds in and one can tell that it’s not Buddy Collette playing, but Lloyd instead. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chico_Hamilton_Quintet_featuring_Buddy_ColletteThe recording in that YouTube link that you provided (with the wrong album cover) is from a recording titled "Man From Two Worlds". https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_from_Two_WorldsCan we stop now, O-10? ****************************************************** |
Keegiam, good record. That one is also one of my favorite CTI’s as is most of what Hubbard and Stanley Turrentine did for the label. Here’s another CTI that I like. Then again, I love everything that Desmond did. Sweetest ever alto tone. (and speaking of “Sky” 😉): https://youtu.be/gbAbD27ZNKM |
With all the silly arguing over silly stuff we have neglected to post (again 😉) the version of “Forrest Flower” on the tune’s composer Charles Lloyd’s debut recording as a leader. Interesting contrast to the version that O-10 posted which I like very much and that Lloyd recorded about a year or so earlier as a member of Chico Hamilton’s quintet. Btw, also interesting to note that on the Chico Hamilton record all the tunes except one are by Lloyd. Not surprising that a year later he would strike out as leader in his own right. This version is more earnest and his playing showing a more obvious Coltrane influence. https://youtu.be/HK4H6k6PRXQThis other version is the first time I heard the tune. Lloyd’s live recording at Montreaux features a 21 year old Keith Jarrett. Somehow, its more gentle approach to the melody, if not so much the improvisations, seems more evocative of the tune’s title: https://youtu.be/qOGqAvElCAs |
Anyone who has heard Dexter live understands why all he had to do was “be himself” in an acting role. One of the great characters in Jazz, he had a strikingly affable way of communicating with the audience. His overall demeanor was loose, very pleasant and full of humor. Well, sometimes a little too loose, but that is a different (and sad) story. He liked to recite part of the lyrics of a song before playing it and was probably the king of musical “quotes” in a solo. Wonderful and very important player. Some interesting reading: https://www.dextergordon.org/blog/2016/1/25/dexter-gordon-and-the-academy-award-nominationThe “baroness of Jazz”, Pannonica de Koenigswarter deservedly receives a great deal of attention as one of the most important patrons of the music. However, she wasn’t the music’s only important female patron. Maxine Gordon, Dexter’s wife also deserves recognition: https://www.maxinegordon.com/bioSpeaking of “loose”: https://youtu.be/7Msqw94XfKkUnusual for Dexter, only one (!) “quote” in this solo; and a very short one at that. Hint: it happens before 3:00. Any takers? 😊 |
Good posts and commentary, pjw. Couldn’t agree more on Byrd as a composer. We tend to focus on a musician’s identity as players while ignoring his voice as composer. With the great ones the playing is simply an extension of their identity as composer. After all, what is improvisation if not a spontaneous composition? Byrd with Hancock, another great composer, with Pepper for the icing on the cake): https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLyHn3f7-9IUJb58LFacKEZmBuExrmaQ9Shttps://youtu.be/xNk3qtzNM_s+1 Dexter Gordon’s “Tanya”. |
Good for you for paying attention to those things. Puts things in a deeper context. Baremboim is a monster musician. |
|
Interesting. A conductor can definitely “intervene” in the midst of playing. A smart conductor doesn’t hold the players and the general musical vibe that the orchestra sets up by the balls at all times. It has to be a relationship (not unlike the role of the leader in Jazz) and a good conductor respects that. I’ve seen good conductors literally put their arms down at certain points in the piece and let the orchestra play and only conduct necessary cues to signal entrances and changes in meter or tempo in the music. It would be fair to say that after letting the orchestra take the lead (to an extent), if the conductor doesn’t like where things are going he would then “intervene”.
Dexter:
Classic Dexter humor: 2:06 “Pop Goes the Weasel”; just the first few notes of the tune.
|
Rok, you got me on that one. I have never heard the term “conductor intervention” used in a musical context. I have read the term used in reference to group therapy; the conductor being the “controller” of thee session. (Hey, group therapy! Might not be a bad thing around here sometimes 😱)
Anyway, what was the musical context that the term was used in that prompted your question? Might help. Not a commonly used term in music, but one could extrapolate. Conductors “intervene” all the time; that’s their gig, essentially. They intervene when they don’t like what a player, or ensemble as a whole, is doing.
|
|
**** With Desmond, it's almost as if someone handed him an alto and said "here, make this instrument sound the best it can." ****
Keegiam, not meaning to repeat myself, but one of my favorite quotes by a Jazz musician:
When asked how he got that wonderful sound on the alto, Desmond replied:
”I want to sound like a dry martini” |
****
From Cedar Walton's Eastern Rebellion. Forget who on this thread suggested the album but THANKS again. ****
😊
Good to see you back, Ghosthouse. |
|
Thanks for the Johnny Smith, mahgister. Wonderful player and a favorite.
|
|
|
Keegiam, I’m tempted to say that it is not possible for a player to be considered underrated after spending so many years being Monk’s tenor of choice. Not of the stature of a Trane or Rollins, but that credential alone would make a player one of the best. However, it is true that he seldom comes up in discussions about great tenor players. It’s almost as if because his very long association with such a giant as Monk overshadowed his work as a leader. So, from that standpoint I would say that, yes, he was underrated since his work as leader is also great and not referenced much. Rouse was the perfect compliment to Monk and it wasn’t until I became familiar with his work as leader did I appreciate what a feat that was. He was able to compliment Monk’s rhythmically quirky and percussive style. His solo albums make sense of the fact that, by his own admission, Ben Webster, was his main influence. Not the kind of sound and approach we hear on his recordings with Monk: https://youtu.be/_I3WXYncRrAhttps://youtu.be/x5N0kc1pkUEhttps://youtu.be/WYtCQS243Og |
|
Kurt Elling is a class act. One of those singers that makes one think “musician” even more so than “singer”. He sounds fantastic on this. Thanks. The performance would have been even better if the orchestra (conductor) played with a bit more style and attitude. Even in ballads the backing orchestral playing needs a little swagger, a little more romance to work with Jazz . This conductor is too stiff for this music. Elling is doing all the heavy lifting; and sounds great in spite of it.
|
Thanks, Inna. Fantastic Camaron!
|
|
Thanks for the tip. Diamond it is! |
Marija, that was an honest question; no offense meant. I like audio, but for me it is a distant second to the music.
There is no problem with what you say. To suggest a blind test implies that you don’t believe there is a difference. It may not make sense to you and I to spend that much, but the difference can be very real. If some one is fortunate enough to be able to spend, say, $80K or more on a fantastic audio system, $7K for the right cables makes a lot of sense. Btw, caves can have great acoustics. |
No, I have not done blind tests with $7K cables, but I have heard comparisons of even more expensive cables in some very high end systems (not mine) and I assure you that they can make substantial differences and improvement. That is not to say that all $7K cables are good; not at all. Some are not nearly as good as far less expensive ones; but some are far better. Btw, on what basis do you draw the line at $1K or $2K?
Yes, it gets more than funny; outrageous, actually. But, I don’t judge how people choose to spend their money. I am at peace with how I spend mine.
Btw, gold is not a great conductor. |
pjw, we usually agree on what matters most, the music. However, I don’t agree that some cases, some very expensive audio cables (and other gear) that is well matched to the gear it is connecting does not make a very significant and very audible difference in the sound of one’s system. Don’t get me wrong, I’m a cheapskate and would never spend thousands on cabling, it’s used gear for me; but I have heard what great cables can do in a great system. With the less lofty range of cabling, usually a few generations old, that I indulge in there have been great improvements. Worth it? Absolutely! Are $3k cables worth it? Very personal decision and out of my league. As I said, totally dependent on the quality of the overall system and the care with which it was assembled. Moreover, while I agree that some so called “audiophiles” are pretty clueless about much of this stuff, I know some very reasonable audiophiles who happen to be very good listeners and most tend to also be serious music lovers. Me? I prefer to not attach labels like audiophile or aficionado to myself. That’s just me. Generalizations are seldom a good thing. Best. Had this playing while I wrote. Roy Haynes, 86 years old! Astounding. https://youtu.be/-K43sDNInSg |
Marija, I am devastated 😊. Please don’t misunderstand, I don’t believe that any of this is necessary to appreciate the recorded music, but it will surely enhance it. Out of curiosity, have you ever heard a great, intelligently assembled audio system? Perhaps you think I and Inna are just delusional? I’ll take that blind test any day of the week. Actually, I have on a couple of occasions and have proven the point. |
Sorry I missed that two weeks ago, pjw. Great stuff.
Re Kevin Deal: no, that was the first of his videos that I watched. I did buy a set of tubes from him a couple of years ago for my Manley monos. Sixteen of them; tubes, that is 😊. Ouch! I do use a PS Audio power regenerator and that makes a nice difference as well.
Re cables: You may have noticed that I generally don’t get involved in audio talk here. For me, that’s the hobby part of music listening and I keep it separate from the more important music to a large extent. However, it can add a great deal to the enjoyment of the music. What do you use for an amplifier and for CD player and what are you using for cables now? I might start by trying a couple of different interconnects between CD player and amplifier/receiver to see what kind of difference the right cables can make.
|
Pjw, if I may offer a bit of advice. Whatever you do, don’t change cabling and add a power conditioner at the same time. You think some of this stuff gets confusing? Rule of thumb: change only one variable at a time.
Power conditioners can be great, but much depends on the quality of the AC coming out of your wall. The cleaner and more stable it is, the less improvement you are likely to get. Are you in an apt. building? Are you in an area with a lot of industrial buildings? If you are in a quiet residential area, the cleaner your power will likely be. Re cables:
As you probably already know, you will get or read many different opinions. A cable that is good with a particular amp and set of speakers may not be good in another setup. Some experimentation is almost inevitable. If you love the sound of your system as is, then you probably need go no further. Ask yourself: Are there times when you say to yourself, I wish I had a little more bass? Or, why does the bass sound too thick and slow too much of the time? Why does my system sound a little bright and harsh on a lot of cds? Etc. Then, read reviews and commentary and look for consistent descriptions of the sound of the various cables and narrow your choices according to what traits match what you would like to improve in your own system. Cables will react differently in different systems, but there are often consistent traits that carry over to most systems they are in.
You are just getting your feet wet with all this. I would call AudioAdvisor and talk to the guys there. Tell them what gear you have and what kind of sound you like. They carry Audioquest and Kimber cables that have been around for a long time and keep being improved. They are good, solid cables that won’t break the bank and AA often has close outs on those and others. They have a 30 day return policy if you don’t like them. That might be a good place to start before getting into the more exotic stuff.
Good luck and have fun.
Btw, Rok will disagree, but Peter Aczel was a hack who obviously had no ears. Denier of anything that could not be “proven” with measurements instead of using one’s ears. Personally, I wouldn’t think twice about anything he had to say. |
Nice gear, pjw; I’m sure it sounds good. I hear you about spending as much for the cables as for the speakers. You don’t have to, if you’re willing to buy used. Actually, you don’t have to at all as I’m sure the sound you have now is good; but ........ Notice Keegiam’s experience buying used.
If you decide to experiment, I would encourage you to try upgrading your interconnects first. My experience has been that with cable upgrades it is usually best to start closer to the source and then move downstream . You may decide that the improvement is not worth it. Tell you what, I have a couple of pairs of unused IC’s. Not for sale, but if you want to try them and see what decent interconnect cables can do between CD player and amp, PM me and I’ll send them to you. Try them and see, then send them back to me. Let me know.
Edit: as I think about it, since you have a surround setup it probably means that you use multiple IC’s. Can’t help with that , but I can tell you that I bought a set of lower end Siltech cables for my 5.1 Video surround for only a couple of hundred bucks and they were a very nice upgrade from the cheapies that come in the box. |
|
“Disgraceful” ? Give me break. Anyone claiming to be an authority who says that all amplifiers sound the same is, yes, a hack.
Good night all 😌 |
**** When it comes to the senses, we are pathetic!! ****
Speak for yourself. You know, it’s curious, for someone who is so anti-audiophile you have brought up the subject of gear far more than anyone else here. Btw, I think you blew your punchline 😊 |
Nice live “San Lorenzo”, keegiam. “So what?” indeed. There’s good stuff in every genre. Here’s that studio version: https://youtu.be/_RrUS2N2MyI |
Loved the Slatko “Lyle Mays” videos, pjw. Hadn’t seen those. Really great stuff; fantastic analysis. Thanks a lot!
|
So, it’s not a lie then? Better than “a scraped clothes hanger”? 🤫 |
Never forgotten, pjw; just a quick diversion.
As usual, the real problems are ego and generalities. The ego of those who cannot accept that some are able to hear, or, ARE OPEN TO HEARING, nuances that they can’t, or, SIMPLY WON’T. So, anyone who because of open mindedness, experience and/or training does hear and appreciates those nuances is deemed delusional and lumped in with those who are, in fact, clueless....the gear jocks. Then, for the “icing on the cake”, because they are PREDISPOSED TO NOT HEARING, or simply can’t hear these nuances, they fall back on the idea that they are more virtuous as music lovers. They then again lump those who balance the two pursuits in a reasonable and wide eyed manner with those who care more about gear than the music. Curiously and ironically, they also tend to be the ones who can’t bear to listen to sonically poor recordings (such as early Bird recordings) simply for the sake of the music. Huh?! The denial that these sonic nuances in the sounds of gear do exist becomes dogma and they are often not even willing to try or experiment to see (hear) for themselves. The danger in generalizations.
Anyway, good luck with whatever you decide to do with your travels in audiophile land. As I said in my first response to this, I have never felt that it is a necessary pursuit for a music lover such as yourself, but it can definitely lead to a clearer window into the music when done intelligently and kept in the right perspective.
Lyle Mays:
Great player. Like the recently discussed musical relationship between Charlie Rouse and Monk, he was the perfect piano player and complement for Pat Metheny. Excellent piano player with chops galore and a great improviser with a musical sensibility that was not overtly steeped in the Blues....just like Metheny. For some, that is a deal breaker; not for me. Strong parallel to the discussion about audio: “If the Blues doesn’t hit you squarely in the face, if it doesn’t sound *bluesy*, then it is not Jazz”, some say. Wrong! The blues content can be more subtle and nuanced within an overall sensibility more representative of the (modern) times. I like his playing very much. Sad that he is gone.
|
Nah! You don’t have to spend nearly that much. Just give up Starbucks for a year, maybe less; that’s all.
Nice clips, btw. Thanks.
Hate to break it to you, Re “Jazz”: only one of the two qualifies. I know you knew that, but....WHERE’S THE OUTRAGE?! The outrage for the daring to call it that! Are you not on the job today? 😊
|
Keegiam, funny, I didn’t even know that “Premium” membership entitled one to videos others didn’t have access to. Just three days ago my wife signed me up for “Premium” because she got tired of hearing me complain about having to sit through the commercials 😊. |
Had a bit of a revelation earlier. It’s no secret here that as much as I love Wynton Marsalis’ work as band leader, trumpeter and educator, there has always been something about his Jazz playing (improvising) that seemed a little off to me. The man is brilliant. I know that the Jazz police will excoriate me for having the temerity to say anything less than positively effusive, but alas.....we all have our tastes. Came across this wonderful concert video on the Tube. It caught my eye because being on a Chick Corea kick the featured soloist with Wynton’s JALC Orchestra was Chick Corea, The band and Corea play the music of Monk. Corea plays with his usual brilliance and its remarkable how he cops Monk’s style throughout. However, it’s Wynton that caught my ear. On the first tune he plays an amazing solo. Much has been written about Monk’s quirky and angular rhythmic feel and recently we commented on how Charlie Rouse was a great compliment to Monk. Hearing Wynton play on Monk’s tunes it was a “THAT’S IT!” moment. Wynton’s feel was made for Monk. It fit like a glove. https://youtu.be/dnwT9nYaX5E |
Well, at least when he’s playing Monk. Monk’s is obviously a pretty bright light for Wynton. As long as he’s playing Monk, I’m good. Re the “chick”: I have no idea who that is. Permanent? No. They have a list of approved subs and a pecking order within that list. My....let’s just say....educated guess (I know a bunch of those guys): Some of the charts call for quite a bit of tricky flute and piccolo playing on the lead alto chair. Sherman Irby (great lead alto) is not a great flute and piccolo player. Ted Nash is a great flute/piccolo player as well as alto. They gave Irby the night off and moved Ted over to lead alto. They needed a sub on the 2nd alto chair. Hence “the chick”. **** It’s amazing they’ve managed to stay together all these years ***** Not really, actually. It’s the best paying Jazz ensemble steady gig anywhere. They have the backing of Lincoln Center and everything that goes with that: prestige, travel, benefits, job security and flexibility to do personal solo projects, Great gig. You may find this interesting. A far cry from “the old days”: https://www.jazz.org/y28z77j/?toggle=1 |
**** Seems to be saying, "noise makers need not apply", and they are also dedicated to preserving traditional Jazz.****
And, where do all those great young players learn all those styles required for application? Where does JALC go to recruit all those great young players? .....hmmm.
|
“3D feeling”. Love that description and I believe I understand what you mean, Keegiam. Tony Williams has been my favorite drummer for a long time and Herbie Hancock ....well, genius. As far as I’m concern Miles’ 60’s quuintet, the second Great Quintet with both of them as members was the greatest Jazz band ever. Great clips all, btw. Thanks. For Ghosthouse 😊: https://youtu.be/BNBcZaB2uEQ |
|
|
No birds, but a propos recent focus on Lyle Mays and Allan Holdsworth’s advanced harmonic and melodic concept, came across this concert video and reminder of how great a record this is. I could do without the YouTube poster’s “artistic license”, but still.... Tendency to relegate this incredible singer/songwriter to just “folk singer”. In my book, far more of a Jazz singer than many claiming the title; and here, her voice at its peak. Amazing band. Amazing performance. And, not to be underestimated, the huge number of young folk/rock fans whose ears were opened to the sophistication of extended harmonies and a song melodies that went to very unexpected places. https://youtu.be/bLKb9Ms68ME |
Well, let’s see. I could do the smart thing and just be magnanimous and ignore an idiotic comment/question; but, alas, I’ve only had but one sip of my morning Joe (Joe....Joni....Joe 🤔). What the hell, I will just go with the vibe of the moment, respond in kind and deal with any consequences later. So....... No. I posted it, not because I liked it due to the fact that it is a video recording of a live performance released as an album considered by many to be the best release by that artist; and, which is also a fantastic performance by crossover musicians who were at the forefront of a genre representative of the more creative music of that generation, but, instead, because I had a momentary lapse in good taste and musical acumen and judgment. What was I thinking! My apologies for having the temerity to post such musical drivel and not living up to your lofty standards of musical judgment and taste. Musical judgment and taste inevitably coupled with such inclusiveness, wide scope and range so encompassing that it boggles the mind. I can’t help but be reminded of some of the standard setting greatness that you have posted here (I better type faster, I feel the Joe kicking in 😉). Greatness in both commentary and musical examples posted. In case anyone, or, you yourself has forgotten (there have been so many examples), here is but one of the many examples of greatness that you have posted and which has stuck deep in the recesses of my sadly shallow and narrow musical reservoir. The greatness of musical depth and nuance in this performance is almost too much to take. Going forward, I will endeavor to post only that which lives up to such a lofty standard: https://youtu.be/z6R5wb9iY6IAnd, of course, let us not forget the wisdom and insightfulness of some of your commentary. The timeless, “Sonny Rollins is irrelevant”. (If it still isn’t clear, I always welcome straight forward, intelligent and respectful disagreement and debate. “In the back door” sarcasm seldom flies). Regards. |
Keegiam, glad you liked it. Joni Mitchell sounds particularly beautiful in that performance. You’re right about Jaco. Most musicians that collaborated with him will say the same thing, he had a way of being “a driver” in the project...in positive ways. A propos other recent comments here, one could say that he was “the John Coltrane of electric bass”; the instrument would never be played the same way again after his emergence on the scene. Very powerful musician. I didn’t know that there was a video recording (on DVD) of an album that I have owned for many years. I came to find that clip in a round about way. Recent YouTube searches of Lyle Mays material caused it to pop up since he was part of Mitchell’s band that night. Then, coincidentally: Yesterday afternoon I attended a ZOOM call/remembrance service for a dear friend and colleague who recently passed away from COVID related complications. A brilliant saxophonist who I worked with for many years and who, early in his career, had been a member of the Woody Herman big band. He could lay claim to having been a member of one of the last iterations of the famous “Four Brothers” saxophone section. As part of the service, his wife played for all some clips of performances that he had been a part of. One of the clips was the one below. Besides Sal, what caught my eye on the clip was a very young Lyle Mays in the rhythm section sounding great on Fender Rhodes. I had forgotten that Mays had played with Woody. Besides the coincidence factor, I found it interesting because it points to how many of the musicians of his generation who would later be pigeonholed as “fusion”, “crossover”, etc. musicians and who themselves wanted to do away with the negative implications that this meant for some listeners had, in fact, very solid experience in more traditional musical settings. https://youtu.be/-0Ytyg1jL_4The best known “Four Brothers” section; and “Four Brothers” the tune: https://youtu.be/KGiLtbLfseY |
Mingus and Stitt. To the best of my knowledge they never recorded together. Hard to believe. Factoid: Stitt recorded more records as a leader than any other Jazz artist. An astounding 106!
|
That really was a great clip. A few good players. Thanks, acman3. **** I don't want to go O10 on you all, but Gillespie is the only jazz great I've had drinks with. It mostly had to do with his post-concert pursuit of a particular female. **** Oh, c’mon, do go O-10 on us, Keegiam, do tell! Dizzy’s exploits with the ladies are legendary; I’ve heard a few. Actually, from a member of that very band....trombone player.....not the one who took the solo.....the one.....I should stop....😊. Btw, Frank Tiberi was one of the few Jazz players to ever double on bassoon. Beast of an instrument to play. Since Woody’s passing, Tiberi has led the band still to this day. https://youtu.be/4mawFKXet38https://youtu.be/tiF0SDH3vZQ |
