Not sure I understand your question. With Elmore James, it’s obvious. Just listen to his words. With Pops, that’s the beauty of this music, no? It’s a feeling; and depending on OUR individual feeling when listening, it tells each of us a unique story....IF it’s good (instrumental) “story telling”. Now, if you want to get into the technical weeds of it all....simple.....they’re both classic twelve measure Blues form and both use a Blues tonality....they’re both the Blues.
Hey, speaking of fowl: if it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck.....
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Marija, disturb me with your appreciation? Never!
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Trentmemphis, checked out Freddy Cole @ JALC. Very nice! Unique stylist and very good band. Thanks for the tip. I’m intrigued by your comment re what people say about the Delta. Would like your thoughts. A good friend is a busy musician in Nashville and he has told me there is a small but decent Jazz scene in Nashville. Too bad same can’t be said about Memphis. Happened across this: https://tennesseeencyclopedia.net/entries/jazz-in-tennessee/ |
Marvelous indeed. Loved it. |
**** as incredulous as that might seem. **** Just can’t help yourself, can you? Reminds me of the common syndrome that afflicts the mediocre, “one trick pony” saxophone player who “specializes” on one instrument, say the baritone. So, because he “specializes” and is only capable of playing one horn he automatically considers himself a better player on that instrument than the far superior player who happens to be versatile and plays more than one horn 😊. Btw, no thanks necessary. Would hate for you to have to be up all night 😱 https://youtu.be/HlKwyMe2WUU |
Trentmemphis, thanks for your thoughtful comments on the Delta.
**** what they're saying usually *feels* untrue more than sounds untrue. True as it may be, it's inaccurate. ****
Insightful comment and I know what you mean.
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Steve Gutenberg/snake oil: Actually, SG is one of the more reasonable guys in audiophile land. Scary? Not really. Why scary? I do find it interesting that someone who is so anti “audiophile attitude” (not sure what that means) brings up the topic more than anyone else and on a fairly regular basis; in a music thread populated by audiophiles, nonetheless 🤔 On the assumption that any post is, at least to a degree, a solicitation of responses, here are some thoughts that come to mind on this very cold snowy morning in upstate NY while I listen to Miles “At Carnegie Hall” on my humble (by audiophile standards) country cabin system consisting of vintage Meitner electronics (solid state😫; but, at least the amps are monoblocs 😀), Totem speakers and ancient AR turntable. Oh, and Nordost cabling and BDR carbon fiber cones underneath everything......I guess that makes me an audiophile 😱: - HE audio is a hobby that is not the least bit essential for the appreciation and enjoyment of music. - HE audio is a hobby that, FOR SOME, enhances the music listening experience. Sometimes a great deal. - HE audio is a hobby that, FOR SOME, has little to do with music; the pursuit is simply better and better “ear candy”; or, back patting self congratulation. - HE audio is a hobby that, FOR MOST, the level of involvement falls somewhere between the two above. - As far as the “ear candy” group goes: Who cares?! Let them have their fun. Better that than collecting assault rifles, no? Not to mention, it’s good for the economy. - Practically ANY change to an audio system will cause a change in its sound. One of the biggest “influencers” in the perceived characteristics of sound is RESONANCE. Practically anything one does to a physical object will change its resonance characteristics and hence its sound. The same thing happens in live sound and with musical instruments. Change something on the instrument and you will change its sound. - Whether the change in the sound can be perceived by any given listener is an open question. Like anything else physical, some listeners simply have better hearing acuity than others. Fact of life, but one can work at improving it. One can also learn to perceive differences; a different matter. - Whether that change in sound is an “improvement” or not is another open question. The answer depends on the listener’s preferences and if the goal is TRULY to get closer to the sound of live music. Then, the amount of experience with and exposure to live music is key. Also a fact of life and no getting around it. “Neutral” is the most abused term in audio. - Whether the “improvement” in sound is worth the sometimes outrageous prices is a question which is almost as impossible and pointless to try and answer as it is to try and answer the question of whether anything besides Delta Blues can be called The Blues; or, at what precise point in its evolution did Jazz stop being “Jazz”. - So, yes, cables, footers, different amplifiers, different tubes all make a very real audible difference. Yes, all turntables and all CD players all sound different. Yes, digital sounds fundamentally different from analog. With the best gear the difference is small, but it is still there. On and on. - Does it matter? Depends. https://youtu.be/cWGvsyeayFk |
I too enjoy her voice. Hadn’t heard that song in a long time. Very soulful and heart felt delivery. Isn’t this interesting? An otherwise fantastic singer; an icon who some rightfully consider one of the best, maybe THE best ever. Yet, this is not the song for her. What were they thinking?! https://youtu.be/p1Dn3xbDrK0 |
Hah! I just watched this; probably while you were posting. Must be something in the air. Nice live performance by a very classy group: https://youtu.be/cytUz9KkK9M |
I’m sure she sounds a lot better in the shower; although I’d rather not think about it 😊. Actually, she “sounds” great, like Ella always does. Problem is as Mary_jo describes: she is totally out of her element. Even some of the greats have limitations dealing with certain styles. I don’t think they were clowning around at all. Having fun singing the song? Sure. Isn’t that the problem ‘though? It’s not a “fun” song. Quite the opposite, and that fact totally escaped them. https://youtu.be/K4XPginLEtU |
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Get over yourself, O-10 and chill; and look in the mirror as concerns posting bs. “This bunch” could say a lot more, but best left alone. The point was valid and you missed the point.
Edit:
Oh, I get it .....kind of cute, actually 😊 |
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Dexter Gordon: Fabulous player and great record! Coincidentally, I posted two or three cuts off that record just a couple of weeks ago. Toss up between he and Wayne Shorter as probably my two favorite tenor players; and if it weren’t due to the fact that Shorter is one of the greatest Jazz composers ever (Dexter was not), Dexter would stand alone in my book. One of Coltrane’s and Rollins’ both main influence; pretty good credential. Personally, I think “unknown” is an overstatement. Maybe somewhat forgotten during the 50’s while in LA. He did move to Europe for 14 years and continued to record there and during occasional visits back to the USA. I was at the Village Vanguard for one of the dates in 1976 heralded as his big return to the USA. Awesome performance. Truly one of the greats. Huge sound and beautiful story telling in his solos with probably the most generous use of musical quotes of anyone; if one likes that sort of thing. One favorite quote was “Mona Lisa”, which can be heard in many of his solos; and it always fit and made musical sense. Sort of a signature thing of his. Dexter makes an interesting comparison to Nathan Davis and the reasons why some players are better known than others. Davis is clearly a good player and as you point out a brilliant man. My comments are not meant to suggest otherwise, or that he is perhaps not deserving of wider recognition. However, the contrast is striking. Two notes and one knows it’s Dexter. His huge sound is immediately recognizable. Fantastic sense of swing and beautifully expressive solos. One of the cuts that I posted previously was “Scrapple From The Apple” and commented that I thought his solo on the cut was, for me, one of the all time great solos on any instrument. Very interesting and a model of thematic development: taking a short, even very simple statement (in this case, a single repeated note) and building an entire long solo that develops and keeps returning to that simple idea. Fantastic! That is why a player can go into semi obscurity due to drug problems (‘50s), even move to Europe for 14 years (!) and when he returns it is heralded as a great event in the music world. He was a giant. Players of that caliber are never forgotten. VERY few exceptions. Davis was a good player. I like his soprano sound and concept more than I like his tenor which sounds a little crass on ballads and overall not nearly as interesting as Dexter’s. His sound is not distinctive which goes to the core of what Jazz is mostly about: individuality. His rhythmic feel is not as grounded and solid like Dexter’s. Good player, but I must say that, IMO, there are many players who are on a similar overall level in towns and cities around the country and teaching in music schools who are local heroes and never get to record as leaders or higher profile sidemen. This may sound like harsh criticism, but is not meant to be. So, the question then becomes, is it surprising that all these players are not better known? Not really. Is this unfair or some sort of slight. I can’t answer that for everyone, but the music world is a tough scene. Very tough! Still, glad to have made the acquaintance. Another favorite Dexter record and one that he himself considered one of his best: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_ldEgeU2IYstfUuhavk6y_jkbhhuAHHgSw |
Right you are, Marija. Two weeks really are an eternity here.
clhs04, I wondered how it tasted to him? 😊. It was back in HS, that Billy Cobham record was the second “Jazz” record that I ever purchased as a result of hearing the first “Jazz” record I ever purchased, Billy Cobham’s “Crosswinds”, after hearing the great Michael Brecker for the first time playing on it. Stick around. |
Gotta love YouTube. Fabulous Oscar Peterson clips! Incredible piano player. That “C Jam Blues” is astounding and one of the best things I’ve seen on Youtube. Thanks, Keegiam.
One of the best ever comments posted by a YouTuber about a clip:
”100 buck says those guys brush their teeth on 2 and 4”
😊 Love it. Talk about swinging! And you’re right about his left hand; Peterson had an amazing left hand.
Anyone want to get geeky? :
I find it interesting that, from all those great clips, you chose that clip (C Jam Blues) to point out his left hand. Alex recently made some interesting comments about piano players and we discussed the things that contribute to a piano player’s tone; the instrument itself being one of them.
Peterson’s preferred instrument was our own Schubert’s favorite piano the “Bosendorfer”; a piano with an unusually brilliant sound and unusual clarity and resonance in the .....left hand keys. Not to mention that the low register on the Bosendorfer extends about a half octave lower than the typical 88 key piano. This gives the low register notes extra power and resonance even when those extra lowermost notes are not actually being played.
Now, it can’t be seen from the video, but like the comment about brushing one’s teeth, I would bet 100 bucks that he is playing a “Bosendorfer” on that clip. Then, listening to the following three clips, and accounting for the relatively low-fi of YouTube clips, on “Boogie Woogie Blues” it is immediately obvious that he is playing a different make of piano. Warmer, more rounded tone with less resonance. This, likewise, can’t be confirmed on the video, but it’s classic “Steinway” tone. Then, move to the last clip; duo with Niels Pederson. Notice the similarity of that piano’s tone to that of the piano that he plays on the first clip (“C Jam Blues”). Brighter, more resonant, more clarity. Stop the clip at 3:19 ( -55:29) and look closely. There it is, above his left hand; blurry, but obvious: “Bosendorfer”.
Just having fun. |
Alex, yes they do all sound different. Sometimes very subtly so, but even more important to the player they all respond and feel different. A very personal choice. Some players like a little more resistance, a little “fight” in the response when they blow into the horn and others like a more free less resistant feeling. Sometimes it just feels right for one’s way of playing and it better allows the player to create and shape the sound that he wants.
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Everything you wrote is absolutely true, Marija and it doesn’t apply only to wooden instruments or only to instruments that are made entirely by hand. First, let’s establish that we are talking about high quality instruments since that is what musicians like the ones we consider here play. As I wrote previously the simple answer is, yes, even brass instruments (and woodwinds, including flutes and saxophones) of the same brand and series all sound different to some degree. Why? Many reasons: All quality instruments, including brass, are “hand made” to some extent. They are often assembled and finished by hand. The brass (especially the “bell”) is “burnished” with hand tools in order to give the metal the appropriate “ring”. It is true that with more and more automation used in the process, less hand finishing is done with modern instruments; however, it is still done. This is one of the reasons that the vintage saxophones are often preferred by professionals. Fact: Back in the ‘60s when churches stopped using real bells and instead started using electronic bell sounds, guess where a lot of those old Italian craftsmen bell makers found work....with brass and saxophone manufacturers where they made the “bells” for the instruments. They were masters of working and burnishing the brass. Sadly that is a dying art and there is now more reliance on machines. However, there is still a considerable amount of hand work that goes into the assembly and finishing of the instruments. Why does the assembly matter?: Think about how the various pieces of brass tubing toast make up a trumpet are held together. Some are soldered together and some are pressure fitted. Two pieces of brass tubing held together by a band of brass around the outside applies pressure to the metal. The amount of pressure is never exactly the same for two different instruments. The amount of pressure affects the resonance of the metal, how the instrument will vibrate. Too much pressure kills the resonance. There are many points along the total length of the tubing where that is a factor. There is also the issue of the composition of the metal alloy. It varies; even within the same series by the same manufacturer. The Selmer MK6 series saxophones manufactured during the 40s-60s are considered by many pros the Gold Standard. That is what the majority of players discussed here played and play today. They are generally fantastic instruments, but even within that series there are certain serial # “sub-series” that are particularly great; especially the earlier ones. Why? Well, it turns out that in the late 40’s-early 50’s Selmer used a brass alloy formulation that had more copper than other times. Why? They used spent artillery shells from the wars and which are technically bronze (more copper) and melted them. True story. Those horns are fantastic. Then, you have the issue of the internal acoustical properties of the instruments. Even today with all the computer modeling used to design brass instruments, no two instruments will have internal dimensions that are exactly the same. That is a huge factor. Internal dimensions greatly affect resonance and sound. Then there is the lacquer applied to the brass for that shiny look that never corrodes. Sometimes the instrument is silver or gold plated. Big difference. I could go on, but I hope you get the idea. Most important of all, and as you point out, all this affects the way the instrument feels to the player. I’ve posted this at least once before. Among many other interesting things, the great Phil Woods talks about going to the Selmer factory in France to try saxophones and find “the one” and the reasons that he switched to another brand late in his career. https://youtu.be/6SJxmCzYpooCompare his tone in that video to his tone in the early days when he played on “the one”: https://youtu.be/3ZTQ0IeYgh4 |
Wow! A wealth of riches. All great. Thanks, Trentmemphis. . A little more light hearted and Season appropriate. I sent these just a few minutes ago to a clarinet player friend who has two young sons. One named Benny (of course!) and the other, Andrew. From a time when “cute” could be hip and arrangers rose to the occasion: https://youtu.be/akfelIR_nNkhttps://youtu.be/zvzt_QFHU4Q |
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I thought you said the VW you brought back from Germany had a record player in it? Liner notes are easier to read, but don’t read while driving 😊 https://youtu.be/imBn68dcfAQ |
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grey9hound, thanks for your links. Perhaps you already have this, but if you like that early 70’s early Fusion sound, this is the album by Herbie that most point to as his most influential from that era. Personally, I feel it is a masterpiece; if one likes that particular musical aesthetic. One could argue that some of the synth patches sound a little “dated”, but conceptually and for just plain funkiness it is fantastic. https://youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_m789U0dt-J4aLVd7p-dXJxSfDliep-NT0 |
grey9hound, I don’t disagree with you. Although I may have been unclear with my wording, my post/ comment was not intended to be any kind of comparison or judgment of one being superior to the other. First, different band leaders and different musical aesthetics entirely for each project. However, they are both part of the rise of Fusion in the early 70s. That was my only point and a reaction to your mention of Hancock.
To me, Jack Johnson is, more than anything, a Rock record. That is not a criticism or slight in the least. The music has a Rock attitude with Jazz players bringing their level of improvisatory skill and depth to the table. Some of the music was entirely improvised. I forget which, but one cut resulted from Miles walking into the studio while McLoughlin was warming up and the tape was rolling. Great record that, FOR ME, puts more emphasis on the Rock half of JazzRock. It is a direct offshoot of the groundbreaking “Bitches Brew”; talk about uniqueness!
Headhunters is a more structured record compositionally. Headhunters does not have a Rock attitude at all and brings a Funk attitude to the table. I don’t mind the sound of synths when they serve the music. I find the playing on it (weird synth sounds aside) amazing. Glad you have the record.
Both great records.
Merry Christmas. |
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Freddie Hubbard: Fabulous player, Trentmemphis. One of my very favorites. Like Dexter Gordon’s solo on “Scrapple From The Apple”, Hubbard’s solo on Oliver Nelson’s “Stolen Moments” is, for me, one of the greatest Jazz solos on record. Again, a model of thematic development. He takes a simple idea and develops it and turns it inside out in a musically logical way; no mindless riffing. I think this was my first post on this thread (and at least a few times more): https://youtu.be/I777BcgQL9oCoincidentally, Hubbard was on my mind in relation to recent comments about Tina Brooks. Brooks appears on Hubbard’s first two recordings as a leader and this brought Hubbard to mind. I think that Hubbard and Brooks make a very interesting study on the subject of what it takes to be successful as a musician. This topic is one often brought up here and Tina Brooks is probably the best example of a player who did not get the recognition that he deserved on strictly artistic merit grounds. The quoted liner notes suggest that what Brooks needed was a guiding hand. Well, he did have one. The great Jackie McClean, then a star of the Blue Note roster, had taken Brooks under his wing and was aggressively promoting him to Alfred Lions. Obviously, this wasn’t enough. So, what happened? Why was Hubbard so heavily promoted and Brooks not so? I think we tend to forget that the music business, even serious music like Jazz is entertainment and a business. In the mind of promoters and producers, whether we like it or not, factors other than artistic merit come into play at least to some degree. Saleability is a big one. Brooks and Hubbard had diametrically opposed personalities; image, attitude, stage presence as well as musical attitude. Hubbard was a firebrand. He was aggressive, fiery and physically imposing; both in his playing and his stage presence. Brooks was of very small in stature (“Tina”, for “tiny”), shy and reclusive; and was known for having a “droopy” stage presence. Add to the mix the simple fact that only those at the very top level of skill and innovation (Bird, Trane, Miles, etc.) can “afford” and get away with a less than “user friendly” personality. Brooks was an excellent player, but being a tenor player he couldn’t quite compete with the reigning titans of hard bop tenor playing; Gordon, Henderson, Rollins and Coltrane. Brooks wasn’t quite on that level. He was not a “good sell” in the mind of promoters. Unfortunate, but reality nonetheless. Hubbard was 22(!) yrs old: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mRvLY024fClrted0GvwrRlQZ6ToUdyBT4 |
Yes I am, pjw. Patience, patience ! 😊 I was literally about to start writing when your post came through. My plan was to incorporate acman3’s timely question “What no Henderson?” into my response to yours. First of all, good to see you back here. The quick answer to your question is, no surprise I’m sure, Coltrane. I can’t think of any player that would “stretch out” as much as Trane and would go into the stratosphere to such heights. However, per the other important part of your question, in extended solos such as Trane would play it is not simply a matter of how far the player, as you say, “overstretches totally beyond the melody”. I would leave the “over” out of “overstretches” which implies that this is going too far. It’s a very important distinction which goes to the heart of what “mindless riffing” is. Classic and great improvisations like the ones that players of Coltrane’s stature (not many) would play usually start with one musical idea, sometimes a very simple musical idea (theme) which has some relation to the melody and/or harmony of the tune. A great player then develops and expands that idea (“thematic development”) always going back in one way or another to that initial improvised idea. As the solo builds the player can literally turn that idea inside out and upside down with many “variations” of that idea even to the point (in very extended solos) that there is seemingly very little relation to the melody of the tune. The key is whether the player can maintain some kind of relation to that melody even if in a very obtuse manner and often not obvious at all; and then, after all the explorations into “the stratosphere” bring it all back home in a musically logical way. THAT is the genius of a great improviser. That this can be done on the spot is truly an amazing musical feat. Coltrane was a master of this. ”Mindless riffing” is when a player who doesn’t have the command of harmony and the inventiveness that a Coltrane did (most don’t) just plays licks that, individually, may sound good and even exciting, but are not held together to form ONE complete improvised composition with musical logic. Often there isn’t even a solid relationship to the melody of the tune. So, I wouldn’t say that Coltrane “overstretched” at all. He stretched very far and beyond the tolerance of some listeners, but there was always a musical logic to it. The review you quoted does a good job of expounding on some of this. It is also important to note that while a listener may not be aware on a conscious level of the above “technicalities”, usually when we are emotionally moved by a player’s performance it is because that musical logic is happening. When we are left cold it is often because that logic is not there. It may seem to some that “musical logic” and “emotionally moved” are contradictory terms, but they are not. Re acman3’s tongue in cheek question (great clips, btw): It was timely because I was going to post some Joe Henderson in response to your question and as an example of another tenor player who could also “stretch out” a lot in live situations without any “mindless riffing”. Ultimately, this is what separates the greats from the just good and even the excellent improvisers. One of my favorite Joe Henderson records: https://youtu.be/ulEMnBRA284https://youtu.be/NPgr6FkBXHASpeaking of Joe Henderson and O-10’s mention the meeting of Jazz and Classical. A tune composed by Ferde Grofe as part of his “Grand Canyon Suite”: https://youtu.be/uGFqtChmFr0In case anyone is interested in the original: https://youtu.be/Y50hzjAq_3c |
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Prez and Billie: Fabulous! Thanks, Keegiam. One of the great musical partnerships in Jazz. What makes it one of the great partnerships? A featured musician (or musicians) walks into a recording studio where he will be recording some tracks with other musicians. Some they know well and some, perhaps not well at all; the producer chooses some of them. A featured musician held in high esteem, even reverence, by other musicians will set the mood or musical vibe of a project in a very powerful way. It can make or break it. I can only imagine how the sidemen playing on some of those sessions were touched by the special thing that Prez and Billie had. For anyone who doesn’t know about this beautiful story. Excellent accounting: https://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/apr/08/billie-holiday-and-lester-young-friendship-between-lad... |
**** Fro saw me on the internet while performing, he says that I am ok, **** Ok, I know you’re just trying to turn his “COLD” knob up and the “HOT” knob down; after all, who really knows just what might be possible over the internet? However, let’s be accurate when quoting someone else: 😊 https://youtu.be/_PVjcIO4MT4 |
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Booker Irving is in the air! I was about to post one more “Harlem Nocturne”, Booker Erving’s, when I saw your post. Great stuff, pjw! Erving is one of those tenor players with such a distinctive tone that it only takes a couple of notes to know it’s him. He also had a unique time feel that made him the perfect compliment to Monk, with whom he played for many years. That solo is epic. Reminiscent of this classic extended solo. The great Paul Gonsalves: https://youtu.be/avINkychVpcIn case anyone wants one more Harlem Nocturne: https://youtu.be/pWR40sdasQ4 |
“Haste makes waste”! Sorry for the typos and apology to the memory of Booker Ervin. ERVIN. Not, Erving or Irving! Hate that spell checker!
**** Well there are, but they are by Bill Cosby. ****
So “woke” of you 😊
Nice clips. “El Rey de Los Timbales”. |
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pjw, I too am a fan of Steeplechase and have several of their releases including The Apartment posted by acman3. I have a few of LTD’s live recordings on the label including all three volumes of “Swiss Nights” and the two with Jackie McLean. The music, as expected, is great. I am probably more tolerant of inferior sound quality than some, but I would say that the sound quality of those is not that great. The Jackie McLean dates are particularly subpar unfortunately. However, still very listenable. Hope this helps. |
Background vocals out of tune. A good producer/engineer would have pulled the organ back in the mix at that point since the background singers are doubling what the organ is playing causing the rub. This would have lessened the “pain” ☹️. |
Beautiful city, Sevilla. Inna is right. I heard some fantastic Flamenco while there several years ago. Very soulful place.
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Thanks, Inna. Fantastic! For me, some of the most soulful music of all. Ole! |
**** Luke 15:22-25 But the father said to his servants, Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found. So they began to celebrate. Meanwhile, the older son was in the field. When he came near the house, he heard music and dancing. ****
**** Nehemiah 12:27 At the dedication of the wall of Jerusalem, the Levites were sought out from where they lived and were brought to Jerusalem to celebrate joyfully the dedication with songs of thanksgiving and with the music of cymbals, harps and lyres. **** |
