Jazz for aficionados

Nice clips, Keegiam. Some favorite Getz:

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kSdDcxyIWm1GGkwoOsAnSegN9sZYwenrE

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lpWI9KUeyBZ6JIw09N7U6AqXEkARfsMAI

Btw, you can keep the points. What would you like me to do with yours? Perhaps Mary_Jo wants them 😊

Good player, Codrington. My first exposure to his playing was on this other Eddie Harris record which I posted a while back. Probably his best known record, it features Codrington and Harris’ best known composition “Freedom Jazz Dance” which has become a modern Jazz standard.

https://youtu.be/iDrH5urtCbQ

Alex, Codrington’s best known associations were with Harris with whom he recorded several records and with the great pianist Larry Willis. Not on YouTube (sorry), but I recommend Willis’s record “Sanctuary” featuring Codrington.

Speaking of Harris and trumpet, Harris pioneered the rather bizarre hybrid instrument the reed trumpet. A trumpet with a saxophone mouthpiece:

https://youtu.be/NMmjh4qkEZY

Metronome 1945:

I think they overlooked a couple. Ya think?

https://youtu.be/6oOIfN4A0Eg

https://youtu.be/pYe4Rz9qhWY

https://youtu.be/9U4jTElGdQ4

+1 Artie Shaw

**** Never considered him a ’serious’ Jazz player. ****

Probably because much of his work is on the “funky” side. He is a serious Jazz player with a very unique tenor sound. Maybe these will change your mind:

https://youtu.be/E3B4locAgDg

https://youtu.be/xU8uitaeFQw

https://youtu.be/pjwrk8mn58A

Alex, love it!

Family factoid (and running joke). In my family there are 5 Marias. In one immediate family unit of 3 sisters (first cousins to me), all three are named Maria. Maria Antonia, Maria Fernanda and Maria del Carmen. 

(Was that a “story”? 🤔)

Speaking of 3 Marias and the soprano saxophone:

https://youtu.be/bYjfHviuOGM

Very nice “Just The Two Of Us” by that kid, Schubert. Plays with a very nice time feel, clean technique and easy touch. Enjoyed it, thanks.

https://youtu.be/ctUownP7Kqw

Shorter is a giant; and still going strong.

Mary_Jo..........OK, I need to get to the bottom of this! I always struggle with this when addressing you, so please set the record straight. Which do you prefer? Mary_Jo, mary_jo, or Mary_jo? Perhaps MJ? I have a sister in law with the same name as you (lovely name, btw). We call her simply, Jo. Which do you prefer?

Oh, almost forgot: JQ?

Re your funny comment about that great Monk/Rouse pic.  Reminded me of a joke often used by musicians when talking to another: “I like what you’re trying to do, man” 😎 Subtle.

Nice article, Alex; thanks. Thoughts? I would say it’s mostly accurate. Mostly. I think it puts a little too much emphasis on the notion of Miles being the “sensitive and introspective” one and Trane the “garrulous and long winded”. Probably true in their lives off the band stand, but depending on what period in their respective careers we are talking about those descriptions could easily be flipped as concerns their playing.

As usual when writing about Miles, KOB becomes a kind of focal point in the article. This actually makes my point. Post-KOB Miles is often anything but “introspective”; certainly not in the way that I think the author means. Actually, I have always felt that in the KOB band it was in fact Cannonball, not Coltrane, who was the musical “odd man out”. Cannonball, as great as he was, was and remained a traditionalist; a very bluesy bebopper who, unlike both Miles and Trane, never really ventured into more adventurous harmonically “outside” territory. His “Ballads” recording is a great example of beautifully sensitive and introspective playing by Trane; as is his playing on one of my favorite cuts from KOB. One of the most concise and sensitive tenor solos that I’ve heard on record. Nothing “garrulous” about his playing on this:

 

Great record “….at the Blackhawk”. I love Hank Mobley, but not as much with Miles. I understand your reaction to his tone, but it doesn’t bother me as much as his ideas are wonderful. Again, just as with Cannonball on KOB, a saxophone player with a much more traditional approach than Miles’ “always forward looking” attitude. Maybe that is part of the “rub” for you; it is for me. I think he is more in his zone on this record:

 

 

Do you kids want to borrow the car?

https://youtu.be/whYiOJ2iBE0

The unmistakable sound of Aaron Copland (“An Outdoor Overture”).  Excellent playing from those kids.  

Words of wisdom from Schubert and Marija.

Silly me, I thought we had moved on. O-10, context, context, context. May I please remind you? :

**** xxxxxx, try a little harder, maybe you can score more points with Frogman; let’s see, you scored points for praising his post, and you scored points for the negative dig at me, you’re moving up the ladder of the "mutual admiration society". ****

Could I also please remind you? Please leave me out of your beefs with others. It is insulting. Can we please move on now? You are the OP, you don’t need anyone’s permission to tell your stories.  As I said previously, carry on.

https://youtu.be/RiOf7oZnlP4

This is the pressing that I have and that I bought from this source a while back.   Have never heard the original, but I can tell you that this (my copy, at least) is more than decent sound wise.  If I were to rate my copy for quietness, I would say A-.  I am more tolerant of surface noise than some.  Recommended.  

https://elusivedisc.com/dexter-gordon-daddy-plays-the-horn-180g-lp-mono/

Very nice record from one of my favorite tenor players.  We recently looked at the great pianist Kenny Drew and I believe this was their first of many collaborations.  I like Dexter from this period in his career.  A little lighter toned and not as (almost) painfully behind the beat as he was later in his career.  (Love the cover art.)

https://youtu.be/JgfBUwUSsO8

https://youtu.be/y6oQNo7i0XE

Three great records, Gsahaikun.  Glad to see the greatness of KOB get agreement here.  Has not always been the case in some quarters.  I might pick Coltrane’s “Giant Steps” over MFT, but it would definitely be arguable.  Nice trio. 

Sad.

.....and Alex 😊

Alex, you beat me to it 😊

Happy Birthday, Wynton Kelly!

Alex, that Wynton Kelly with Coltrane and Getz live clip, and the other two or three companion clips, are some of what make YouTube such a treasure. Kelly sounds amazing; so relaxed. Fantastic.

You probably know this record. If you don’t, check it out.  One of my favorites. As an aside and added plus, I’ve heard guitar players refer to this as the greatest Jazz guitar record of all time (their words, not mine). Regardless, great record:

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0q2VleZJVEmhGT8b7NQBIRHVjI-jDBBc

Alex, interesting comments re guitar players. Burrell, Green and Montgomery, all great players. I find Montgomery’s time feel and phrasing a perfect compliment to Kelly’s. You have always seemed very tone conscious; a good thing, so I can understand your preference for Burrell’s tone. Re your question:

A piano player’s tone is the result of a few things; some more impactful than others. When one strikes a piano key one can “shape” the resulting tone. This is the player’s “touch”. I don’t know if you have ever sat at a keyboard. When your finger strikes a key there is certain amount of “play” (time, or movement of the key) between the moment when the finger initiates the motion and the moment when the hammer actually strikes the piano string and produces a sound. That “play” also has a certain amount of mechanical resistance which varies instrument to instrument.  This is a characteristic of that particular instrument’s “action”. 

How the player starts the motion (aggressively or gently and every step between) and then how the motion is controlled through that resistance and until the point when the hammer strikes the key affects the quality of the resulting tone. Brighter (Peterson), warmer (Evans), percussive (Monk). Added to the mix is, believe it or not, the player’s unique physical characteristics. An understanding of the impact of resonance on musical sounds makes it easy to understand why this would be so. In a sense, at the moment that the hammer strikes the string and a tone is produced, the instrument and the player (in a sense) become one. Of course, an accomplished player’s musical intent (expression) governs all this. When playing ANY musical instrument, the body has a way of following one’s ears to produce the tone that one hears in one’s head. However, for this to happen there has to be a deep connection with the instrument on a technical level (technical level does not refer only to the ability to play fast).

Lastly, and of less importance is the inherent sound of an instrument. Obviously, players are usually at the mercy of whatever instrument is available at the time, but some play a particular brand of instrument as much as possible. For instance, Oscar Peterson would usually only play Bosendorfers. When you’re a player of that stature you can demand that. Bosendorfers generally have a distinctive sound which can be heard in his “tone”.

Hope that helps.

O-10 (and Alex?), IMO we jump around too much and focus gets lost. If I may, why not first stay on the subject of “Autumn Leaves” as a way to make the point, since some points have already been made about specific performances of it?  I posted Barney Kessel playing the tune as a way to demonstrate some of what I wrote. How would you describe your perception of that performance vs the others?

Yenne Lee:

Lovely tone with a beautiful fragility to it. Not unlike her appearance. But, since we are critiquing:

She doesn’t take enough time between phrases. Sounds a bit rushed with little shape to the melody. There is a sense of caution and sameness throughout.  A little too “precious” and I don’t feel her emotional connection to the tune.

https://youtu.be/BAsEfhU2Ehg

Very nice exchange of ideas and clips of the different versions of the beautiful tune “The Autumn Leaves”. Thanks to all for your thoughts and contributions. Great versions of the tune. As points of interest which may put the song in a more complete context:

Usually attributed to the American song writer Johnny Mercer whose songs feature prominently in the Great American Songbook, Mercer only wrote the English lyrics to the song. The song was written by the Hungarian composer Joseph Kosma with lyrics (in French) by collaborator Jacques Prevert for the film “Les Portes de la Nuit” (Gates of the Night, 1945).

Speaking of song titles and their meaning: the original title of the song was “Les Feuilles Mortes”. The title translates to “The Dead Leaves”. To me, a subtle but interesting distinction in the feeling (meaning) that this title suggests compared to the English title. This feeling, IMO, is reinforced by the feeling conveyed in this scene from the film. This was the first time that the tune is heard in the film. Not exactly light and joyful:

https://youtu.be/L1XJWNewsbA

First commercial recording of the song (with the seldom heard introduction):

https://youtu.be/mGWv8lTTcTY

Of course, there are many different ways to interpret a song and Marija points out how Yenee reimagines the original feeling of the tune, but I think there is value in understanding the composer’s original intent; if not necessarily always having to honor it.

Speaking of technical matters (the uninterested can stop reading 😡): aside from being a great melody, the main reason that the song became so popular with Jazz players is that the harmonic chord progression of the song is a series of what is called a “II V I”. Notice the distinctive movement of the first four notes of the melody and how often that motif of four notes is repeated in the song. Every time that those four notes are heard, the underlying harmonic movement is a II V I. That sequence is the “meat and potatoes” of harmony in Jazz and just plain fun to improvise over. It is like flour, yeast and water to a baker; it all starts there.

Alex, I do indeed. The greatest! Awesome pic. Thanks.

Schubert, left handed AND upside down. Her way without a doubt. Wonderful feeling in her playing,

Loved the Webster/Peterson, Keegiam. Thanks.

Rok, I’m embarrassed to say that I had never heard that Mingus record. Thanks. “For Harry Carney”: Amazing.  Love them musical quotes (George Adams)! Any takers?

As 0-10 says, genius.

👍

https://youtu.be/Iq0XJCJ1Srw

It’s curious to me how with all the discussion and even arguing about the music of Brazil, we barely even looked at......the music of Brazil; certainly not the more recent stuff. For me, the “Pop” music of Brazil has always been the most interesting “Pop” music of all Pop music. I find it to be, overall, on a much higher level of musical interest than any other Pop music.

I love the way this guy sings and love his songs. There is a wonderful honesty and simplicity in his singing and his songs are extremely interesting to me. Kind of Brazil’s Joni Mitchell in overall vibe. The best Brazilian artists have always attracted the attention of American Jazz artists. The first time I heard of Milton Nascimento was years ago on the wonderful record by Wayne Shorter “Native Dancer” on which he collaborated with Shorter. This one is another record on which the worlds of contemporary Brazilian music and American Jazz meet and the result is great. Herbie Hancock plays on most of the cuts and shows once again why he is such a genius. It is unusual for even the best Jazz musicians to so seamlessly and beautifully fit into a musical setting with a very strong ethnic character different from their own.

https://youtu.be/8gWzbH7w-Ws

https://youtu.be/6nFrpjjQ0vU

https://youtu.be/uD-lGzDsdX8

(bad udio quality warning!, but worth listening to anyway for Hancock’s incredible playing)

https://youtu.be/Z3PA6D22Gx8

**** I suspect Brazil popular music NOW, is Western style (nuts and bolts) pop music sung in Portuguese. ****

You’ve got it completely backwards. Brazilian record producers did not go looking for Stan Getz to record Girl From Ipanema. Other way around. Nascimento didn’t go looking for Wayne Shorter to collaborate with. Other way around. I’m surprised (not really) that you have no clue just how sophisticated Brazilian music is.

Well said, Alex; we can always use a little poetry. Nice clip.

https://youtu.be/1EwgvDvtqQs

Edit: came through as one song “Atabaque”.  Later Re your question.

Listen to the cuts above; fuss enough. Yauarete is very good as they all are, but more to the Brazil side of things as compared to the clips above with Hancock. More to the “native” side.

**** Does not sound Brazilian to me. ****


Probably because you stopped listening with Sergio Mendez and Brazil 66. Defining Brazilian music by the Mendez formula is like saying that if it doesn’t sound like the Beatles it doesn’t sound American. Mendez’ music was Brazilian music-lite. That was 1966. 50 years ago! Nascimemto’s music is very much Brazil and is where popular music in Brazil is NOW, not 50 years ago. Familiar theme, isn’t it? Of course, the language is Portuguese; spoken in Brazil. The songs themselves are very Brazilian in their melodic shapes.

I disagree with the notion of “music flow” in this case and I think you short change Brazilian music’s innate value. As great as Hancock is on the record, he simply played on the record. Nascimento composed the music, arrangements, sang the songs and also played on them. Hancock made a huge contribution, but ir was a supporting/accompanying role no matter matter how one looks at it and no matter how well he did it. Different piano player? Might work, might not work as well, probably not, but it would still be essentially the same music. Different composer/singer? Different music altogether.  

The music on the record with Hancock is a meeting of the two cultures. Let’s put it this way: would you call it Jazz? I wouldn’t; not that it matters. The songs themselves are very Brazilian in their melodic shapes. Hancock brought the other sensibility to the table. It’s a blend. That’s the point. And it works better than usual.

It’s true, it’s true! I didn’t believe it the first time I read it, but it IS possible to hear all the way in NY, the sound of a head exploding in Texas 😱

Well done Trentmenphis! Nice clip and nice analysis.

Rok, please, lighten up. Re “the other thread”: “exchange” takes different forms; and I believe you know exactly what I mean. A little disingenuous...maybe? “Breathtaking arrogance”? Geez! Please, lighten up, it’s all in good fun. Easy to see; except maybe when one feels backed into a corner.

Hey, speaking of quotes: “Which side of the bed did you get out from”? 😊

Check out Brazilian music besides Mendez.  Some really great stuff.

Cheers, no hard feelings.

Alex,

**** Does anybody compose ’classical’ music today,for exmp. in 18th centuty idiom?
Or in any other, from the past?
Is there a significant difference in orchestral or small ensemble compositions betwwen music from the past and today?

I am asking, because of discussions that are happening here regarding new and old jazz.
The sam type could be led about any popular music or form from last century.
Why are people so sensitive about jazz? ****

Great comment and great question.

Everything that has been discussed here about Jazz in regard to the PROCESS of “influences and “evolution” of the music and the various defined “periods” or “eras” of the music’s popularity can be said about “Classical” (in the broader sense) music. The parallels are many.

You mention the 18th century. In the 18th century there were two major and overlapping eras represented, the tail end of the Baroque era and the first half of the Classical (the more specific use of the word) era; part of evolution of the genre and same could be said of, say. the ‘30/40’s in Jazz: Swing to Bebop. Throughout the decades and centuries there have been composers who compose in what could be called a “neo-(fill in the blank) style. Sometimes there can be a preponderance of a neo style such as what happened in the time between the two world wars when there was what became known as the Neo-Classical era. This was a move toward the order and melodicism of the Classical era and away from the disorder and atonality of the then current Modernist Era, which itself was a reflection of what was going on in the world in general. A familiar progression; as in Jazz. Keep in mind that, while this is actual analysis and not an opinion, this is all from a musicological standpoint. Listeners’ perceptions, depending on the amount of exposure to any one style and/or personal preferences may not be in sync with this. Example: some might be surprised to learn that, for instance, Igor Stravinsky was a neo- Classical composer.

Yes, today there are composers who compose in the neo-Classical or neo-Baroque (and others) styles. While the music may not sound just like Mozart or Bach it most definitely uses compositional elements used in the music from the Baroque and Classical Eras and follows many of their compositional formulas; similar or even the same compositional “form” and similar use of melody. Many of Hollywood’s music scores are in a neo-Classical style; sometimes along with other more modern elements as well.

You ask if there is a “significant difference” between chamber or orchestral music of the past and today’s. The “eras” represented, including the current, will obviously have significant differences in style which will be expressed compositionally. As the various eras (styles) moved chronologically to the present, broadly speaking there has been a movement toward more atonality and a more “adventurous” (more complex) rhythmic signature; and, in some cases a deliberate attempt to do away with a clearly defined rhythmic signature altogether. Composers always build on what came before and “push the envelope”. Just as in Jazz. As far as instrumentation goes, there will always be certain classic (not Classical) instrumental combinations, like the string quartet, but one of the trends is to explore new and different instrumentations by way of the inclusion of the more “exotic” instruments including the electronic.

Why are people so sensitive about Jazz? I would say that they are no more sensitive than those “Classical” music listeners who think that nothing good was composed since the mid-1800’s or so. Again, a familiar theme.

Rok, it’s an attempt at mimicking the way that those words might be pronounced by a hipster or Jazz “cat”. I’ve often wondered if it was actually the composers of those tunes that spelled those words that way and not some producer who changed the spelling thinking it sounded more Black….more authentic.

O-10, I don’t believe Rok asked a question at all. With respect, I would prefer to not get into a discussion about something that some other member supposedly asked or said. RA alert! RA alert! *

I don’t know what you mean by “pure” Brazilian. Technically, the only “pure” music of any country is its indigenous music. In the case of Brazil, it would have to be pre-European and pre-Afro influence. After those, it’s all part of the melting pot; just as it is here in the US. You mentioned that you were listening to a Milton Nascimento recording before reading my post on his recording with Hancock. Which was it? He has many recordings that are much closer to a Brazilian aesthetic than the one I posted. I will post some that I think are more representative of a Brazil aesthetic later.

* Ruckus Alert 😊

Thanks for pointing that out, Keegiam.

Hey, Alex!!!  Nice Jimmy Forrest clip 😊 What a sound.  Beautiful.  Btw, hope my comments re “Classical” were helpful.
 

Zorn: avant garde instrumentalist/composer.  Jus sayin’.

Re “the anniversary“. It WAS her husband.

Keegiam, beautiful clip with Jimmy Forrest. What a tone!  And good catch on the McCoy-like playing on Acman’s clip. I had the same reaction until it was obvious that there wasn’t quite as much power, but the chord voicings are McCoy all the way.

Acman3, great clip on the finding of the Rollins tapes. Wow! Interesting to hear the players’ commentary. A while back I made a comment here that one of us “grumpy old men” made fun of. That with Rollins there is always a sense that his sense of time is so strong that the rhythm section plays to his pulse and not the other way around as is usual. Exactly what the players on those sessions describe. Amazing and iconic player.

Fast forwarding from Forrest about 60 years to the present. I’ve been checking out this tenor player over the last couple of days. Total monster player who has a similar rhythmic power as Sonny. Well, similar...there’s only one Sonny.

https://youtu.be/WkxwvNF50AQ

https://youtu.be/5MK3MnuFZ20

https://youtu.be/QXOPhN4AFhA

https://youtu.be/YWpwVAqGSHc

https://youtu.be/DUnpaDeFJog

On Yoko’s part, or Marija’s?  😊

Re Yoko Ono/Zorn:

Funny, I don’t see the word “Jazz” anywhere in the titles or credits.  Got through a bunch of comments.  Nope, can’t find the word Jazz anywhere.  Maybe.......,just maybe, it is not and is not intended nor presented as Jazz.  Why the outrage?  

It is funny, ‘though. 

😊

For me, one of THE great solos in all of recorded Jazz.  Putting style differences aside, when he was in his prime Dexter Gordon was as good as anyone has been on the tenor.  I love his attitude on this and the solo is a model of thematic development.  Amazing what a great player can do with one note.  Astounding!  Classic record.

https://youtu.be/TYGKqTib0A8

Keegiam, because 1. the piano is the most important and most versatile in the context of a Jazz ensemble. It is the harmony instrument (guitar could be as well) and can also function as a rhythm instrument. 2. the bass acts as a timekeeper and, in a sense, can fill the musical role that the drums can. Also, while it usually doesn’t play chords, it outlines the harmony with its single note bass lines. 3. Drums typically only play time and while obviously very important, it could be said that it is the least essential instrument.

Those are the traditional roles of the three instruments. Think about how many recordings there are of a soloist with piano (or guitar) and bass. Or, soloist and just piano. Or, even soloist and just bass. Not too many of soloist (including piano soloist) and just drums, no bass.

Looked at from a different angle, one of the ultimate challenges for a horn improviser is playing in a piano-less trio (just bass and drums). No harmonic underpinning. So, it is particularly challenging to improvise in a way that clearly outlines the harmony. No hiding; no room for bs. The recently discussed Sonny Rollins was one of the first and few to have the b@!!s to record in that setting.

When the drummer is the leader, his name is usually listed first.  Sometimes, the leader (no matter the instrument,  including drums), as a show of deference and respect for his sidemen (especially when they are high profile players), will want his name listed last.  

Excellent! Thanks.  Great rhythm section.

Coincidentally, Kenny Drew has been posted a fair amount recently.  And about time!  Alex is correct, not enough Kenny Drew. Wonderful player.

Don Cunningham is an entirely different kind of player and deserving of a different kind of consideration.  Alex, you neglected to point out that he is a multi instrumentalist who is more than a drummer.  In fact, he doesn’t play drums at all on the first two clips.  He plays vibes on them.  He also plays alto saxophone on one of the other clips.  Unfortunately, he is a bit of a “jack of all trades; master of none”, IMO.  Personally, I think that while he is strongest on vibes, his actual playing is unimpressive overall.  Saxophone is not his thing. 

However, conceptually there is a certain charm about the record and enjoyable up to a certain point.  It is not surprising that he worked out of Las Vegas for part of his career.  There is a “crowd pleasing”/show biz vibe about it,  For me, that record is enjoyable conceptually, but not so much in execution.  I find his playing, especially on saxophone, to be undeveloped and not on the level of some of the other players in the band, especially his piano player; not to mention Kenny Drew.  
My reaction and, as always, hopIng that there is room for honest disagreement.

I know what you mean, but don’t under estimate the influence (power) of the record  labels and “the market”.  Even serious artists feel the pressure and only the most uncompromising hold their ground when it comes to that sort of thing.

Well, we know that “Kathleen is not (her) stuff”; maybe Lucille is 😊:

https://youtu.be/RhCZepVTBW4

Muddy Waters was a Blues artist. Muddy Waters played the Blues:

https://youtu.be/cXTCA2jJRXE

No vocals.

(I’m pretty sure I heard all sorts of stories in there)

It’s the feeling. 

Since we are on the subject of chickens:

https://youtu.be/-i66V-twCw0

Nah! It’s the usual pointless attempt at narrowing classifications of genres. Waste of time. Music (art) is not like that; it’s all much more fluid than that.

https://youtu.be/VBvxNhaEvHE

(Michael Brecker, you are missed)