This may be of interest to anyone wanting to understand a little more about what “African influences in the Western Hemisphere” means. Apology for the length.
For better or for worse, depending on one’s way of thinking, a look at “musical theory” is inevitable if one wants “proof”. One could get much more deeply into the theory and analysis of it all but for the purposes of this post a more general overview is more appropriate, I think. I have posted similar comments with examples several times previously. The resistance to this idea and the concepts involved always seem to be, at least in part, due to a reluctance to accept that, yes, there is “musical theory” involved which explains the concepts; and, what to me is a mistaken idea that looking at and trying to understand a bit of the theory somehow diminishes the raw emotional involvement with music which is ultimately what matters most to all of us as listeners and aficionados. As I have tried to suggest previously, understanding a bit of the theory only serves to enhance, not diminish, the listening experience. It makes one a better listener. Personally, the reason that I feel that to accept, or at least consider the idea of this influence is so important even if it is not understood in theoretical terms is that it is one of the most beautiful aspects of this great music and its history. The traditions of a culture are about as beautiful as it gets and deserving of respect as concerns the arts.
So, how did African music influence music in the Western Hemisphere? It goes without saying that none of this is my idea or theory...duh! A big part of the frustration when trying to discuss this stuff here is that any simple Google search of the subject will yield countless references to and links to far more comprehensive studies of the subject. At a time in history when “globalism” is an idea that, one way or another, has become a part of our consciousness it should be particularly easy to understand the most basic aspect of this “influence”: that when a people settles (willingly or not) in another country or continent they bring with them their unique culture (music, food, dress, language, etc.) which then inevitably becomes, to one degree or another, part of a mix of their culture, other “imported” cultures and the native culture of the new land. In the USA, a country often described as “a country of immigrants” this is particularly relevant.
There are some primary ways that African musical tradition became part of this mix and keep in mind that what makes these musical concepts relevant is the simple idea that they were concepts that were NOT found in the traditions of the other musical cultures that were part of the mix. They are found only in the native African musical tradition. So, if these concepts can suddenly be identified in this new cultural mix (Jazz), where does one suppose they came from?
“If it walks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck..........”
Rhythm:
Syncopation. Emphasis on the “off beats”.
Take a simple 1,2,3,4/1,2,3,4/1,2,3,4 repeated rhythm. In European music the overwhelming majority of the time the stressed beats are 1 and 3. In African musical tradition the stressed beats are often 2 and 4. Where else do we find music that stresses beats 2 and 4? You guessed it, American Jazz. Ever notice how hard it is for some Caucasians (particularly older generation) to clap their hands or snap their fingers on 2 and 4 when listening to music? It’s practically engrained in the DNA; and further “proves” the point.
Classic Jazz hi-hat rhythm: chin-KA-chin-Ka/ chin-Ka-chin-Ka, etc..........IOW, emphasis on 2 and 4.
Cross rhythms:
All those cool and hip things that a great Jazz drummer like Art Blakey does on the kit....cross rhythms: playing in different time signatures at the same time. The left hand may be playing four beats to the measure while the right hand may be playing six beats to the measure. This is a very simplistic example and the playing of a great drummer gets far more intricate than that. A concept found in African drumming; not in European music.
Swing feel:
One of the unique things about Jazz is that underlying most rhythmic grooves is a “triplet feel”; the sense that each beat has three temporal subdivisions. This places the third division of each beat closer to the following primary downbeat than in Western tradition in which there is an evenly divided (more “square”) feeling of subdivision. A concept common in African musical tradition and completely foreign to European musical tradition.
Call and response:
One instrument makes a musical statement and another “answers” with another statement. Very common musical technique common in Jazz and found in African musical tradition. Not common in Western tradition.
“Blue” notes:
What is it that gives much Jazz that “bluesy” feeling? Blue notes. Used for expressive purposes, in a typical eight note musical scale it is the lowering in pitch of the 3rd, 5th or the 7th notes of the scale; and not necessarily always all three. Unexpected to the Western ear which “expects” those notes of the scale higher in pitch. Again, a concept foreign to European musical tradition.
This is a very rudimentary and simplistic attempt at explaining some basic concepts. For anyone interested in digging deeper, I assure you there would be no difficulty in finding much to read.
“......it IS a duck”
Regards to all.
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Nice post acman3. Thoughts later. Just a quick response to maktracy’s query. Coincidentally, there have been at least three mentions of this player since he posted. I think it sounds like Scott Hamilton, but I can’t find any reference to a “Unforgetable” recording by him, so I can’t be sure. Anyway, maktracy, if you like that sound and style (and who wouldn’t) check out Hamilton. Nice playing on that clip, btw. |
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pjw, Herbie Nichols fan here. Great observation about his style. Not as percussive as Monk, but definitely with a similar jagged and angular swing feel and use of tight dissonances like Monk. Great player who is known in some circles even more so for his compositions which are extremely interesting. In fact, speaking of “collectives”, there is a Jazz Collective ( in Chicago, I think) dedicated to the music of Herbie Nichols. It not surprising that he and Monk were friends. It should be noted that Monk recorded far more and later than Nichols who sadly passed away around twenty years or so before Monk. This record was my introduction to Nichols: https://youtu.be/MRkX0ZFoCFwProbably his most famous composition, co-written with Billie Holiday who wrote the lyrics: https://youtu.be/ANUZ3vF94pEAnother very idiosyncratic piano player that I put in a somewhat similar category of Jazz piano style is Elmo Hope: https://youtu.be/XMDq4GcSrKcQ https://youtu.be/F7PsMUdmOWUInteresting, but little known record: https://youtu.be/Dv9ePH_290ASpeaking of Kenny Dorham and Elmo Hope, my introduction to Hope was this record during a time when I couldn’t get enough Sonny Rollins. Monk’s name appears on the jacket, but he plays on only one tune; not this one: https://youtu.be/4VGwjfZ_NLU |
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O-10, I have two sons. One is a young man, the other is about to become one. It is very common for children and even almost-adults to, in order to feel in control and with a sense of power, to throw tantrums and act out in childish ways by saying disrespectful and downright insulting things when they don’t get their way. A good parent will be very accommodating and flexible when the child, in the face of their obvious brattiness, offers a token “olive branch” of faint praise. Well, you are not a child and, God help me, you are not my son. So, I would offer the suggestion that, before anything, you offer an apology to all here for your childish and disrespectful rants; most recently and specifically, for calling the contributors here “henchmen” and part of a “mob”. Not that I expect it, but you may extend any show of maturity to the “lipstick on a pig” comment. The list is long, but that would be a good start. Jus’ sayin’.
Now, while it probably is not surprising, I don’t agree that “we hardly ever agree”. Fact is, that we agree fairly often. Problem is that when we do disagree over one of your “pet” topics (or anything else, really) you tend to, in your mind, assume and extend disagreement to everything else. Case in point and an example of something that has happened many times: I posted the iconic recording “Money Jungle” by Ellington, Mingus and Roach quite a while back, and you thought it was the bomb. Now, because I expressed views, backed by data, on the African influence topic that differ from your OPINION, suddenly that same music is no longer any good. Childish rant.
I assure you that while it is pretty good, my knowledge of music is not encyclopedic by any means and I prefer, faint praise aside, to always remember that there is always a great deal to learn. May I suggest that you try that approach; it is a far more productive way to approach things.
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Wow. Wonderful. Hadn’t heard that one. The original Children’s Songs is gem of a record also. Deceptively interesting and beautiful little compositiins. I posted it a while back: https://youtu.be/X2zpbq8mr7w |
Pure artistry, keegiam. Thanks for posting that. One of my favorite musical duos ever. I have enjoyed their recordings for many years as well. In case you don’t know there is a Pablo release of live performances from two different live concerts entitled “Sophisticated Lady” that is also great. Also, may I recommend “Fitzgerald and Pass....Again” . Their second album as a duo and every bit as good as their first which you mention. I’m intrigued by your mention of “Two For The Road”. Is that a compilation of some kind or reissue? If you like Ella with guitar, Ella’s Duke Ellington Songbook recording, besides being a wonderful record overall, features one track in a duet setting with Barney Kessel playing some beautiful accompaniment. Interesting contrast to she and Pass: https://youtu.be/p76xJm-meUA |
pjw, I don’t think it is the odd meter tunes that cause some to be luke warm about Brubeck’s music. In fact it is those tunes that became his best known. I think it is more the fact that Brubeck’s music had a distinct feeling and way with swing. It was very much in the West Coast style of Swing, not quite the same amount of swagger and feeling of the Blues that East Coast Jazz has. Some have referred to it as a bit “white”.
Paul Desmond is one of my favorite alto players and for me he was always the main attraction of Brubeck’s band; a band that while not my absolute favorite, I enjoy very much.
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Coltrane had an uncontrollable sweet tooth. From “John Coltrane: Impressions Of His Life And Music”: +++Now twenty-six, he was using heroin, smoking cigarettes, and drinking fairly heavily, gaining weight, and generally not in good spirits. In addition, his teeth hurt him constantly as a result of his inability to control his love of sweets. He consumed candy bars, other sweets, and Coca-Cola so rabidly that his teeth began to deteriorate.+++ Nice to see you back, Mary_Jo. https://youtu.be/tXy0LvwYCW8 |
Great choice by Alex; great record. I love Red Garland’s playing. Obviously, we all like certain styles of playing and not others and Garland sure had a very distinctive style; and one which influenced many other piano players. For me, there was a tremendous amount of swagger In his swing feel, but it was his pioneering use of “block chords” for soloing that made his style distinctive and influential. Instead of single note lines in a solo, each note would be harmonized in like fashion. One hears a series of chords (with the melody notes on top of the chord) instead of the usual single note lines with independent left hand chord accompaniment. Both hands moved together. Btw, Keegiam it was Bill Evans on “So What” from KOB. If you have the 1986 reissue, Wynton Kelly played on a different and alternate take of “So What” that does not appear on the original KOB. Is that what you refer to? Garland played on the Miles’ record “Milestones”. Check this out for a great and fascinating explanation-by-example of block chords. At the start of this tune from “Relaxin With The Miles Davis Quintet” we can hear “studio chatter” from the players. Garland starts the intro to “You’re My Everything” with a typical single note line. Miles is heard whistling loudly to stop the band and we hear his gravelly voice saying “Play some block chords, Red..block chords, Red”. They start the tune again and we hear Garland’s intro again, now with block chords. That was his signature sound. Obviously, Miles liked it. https://youtu.be/COqizkflS9UFrom “Milestones”. On his solo on this tune Garland changes from single note lines to the use of “block chords” at 7:30: https://youtu.be/erlKauAFwSwTwo other favorite Garland recordings that may or may not change your mind: https://youtu.be/57IY0wDqdCshttps://youtu.be/LYVgQVnUkmAhttps://youtu.be/2fj0Qu8d864https://youtu.be/GBLQMPtgGbU |
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Tony Williams looks like he’s not old enough to drink. Body language.....standing behind the icons Blakey and Jones, looking a little lost; and on his way to being one himself (and my favorite drummer ☺️). Great pic! Thanks.
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Keegiam, ‘nuff said indeed. You posted two of my very favorite records from possibly, if forced to pick, my favorite Jazz musician and thought by many to be the greatest living Jazz composer. Shorter is a true icon who is thankfully still with us. Can’t disagree Re that Wynton Kelly cut. Except for Shorter, they sound as if they are phoning it in. Happens. Wynton Kelly was clearly highly regarded by many of the greats. Who am I to argue; but, not the most inspired playing on that record. Some of my favorite playing from Shorter is from the (for me) the greatest Jazz quintet of all time, Miles’ 60’s Qt. with Herbie Hancock, Ron Carter and Tony Williams. A couple more favorite Wayne Shorter records as a leader. Both these tunes (especially “Footprints”) have become modern Jazz standards: https://youtu.be/LgaIUqH0w6chttps://youtu.be/giIFf_a42t4Weather Report was a great band; arguably the greatest Fusion band ever. One of the most interesting things about Shorter to me is how his playing got more and more minimalist through the years. Still highly emotionally charged, but fewer and fewer notes played to the point that one single note could say it all. Shorter’s first (I think) solo recording post-Weather Report is an interesting record if one likes that WR fusion sound. Sonics wise it’s a real sleeper. Original sealed copies of the LP are readily available on the ‘bay for little money. https://youtu.be/bYjfHviuOGMhttps://youtu.be/ppuNApCPYUoThanks for the clips. |
Rok was the first to post on a thread that I initiated about three weeks ago. The thread was simply a clip of Wynton Marsalis playing solo a beautiful rendition of “Amazing Grace“ and speaking about the history of the song. What he spoke about was not about Jazz, but simply what, to me, was an inspirational message. Well, let’s just say that after Rok’s post the thread took a left. I deleted the thread because it was going down a road totally different than what was my intention. I too hope he is well and hope he chimes in. What I can tell you from that post is that Rok is still Rok 😊 |
I think that Taj Mahal’s point is that The Blues can be a lot of different things; some of which are stereotypes and nothing more. Blues don’t have to be about pain and sadness.
"There’s two kinds of blues. There’s happy blues and there’s sad blues." - Billie Holiday
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Birthday time!!!! A piano player who definitely qualifies for Alex’s list of players deserving wider recognition....here, at least, Great player whose name doesn’t come up very often, but was highly regarded by many of the greats. Dolo Coker recorded six records or so as a leader later in his career and was the piano player of choice on many other leaders’ records. https://youtu.be/nmyV8aY9Um8On one of my favorite Dexter Gordon records. Tune dedicated to Dolo: https://youtu.be/efyQylrJm3UWith Art Pepper: https://youtu.be/aLFg7s64dYYWith Schubert’s favorite (I think) saxophone player: https://youtu.be/wXJtoa3HOVI |
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Awesome, R.L. Burnside, Keegiam! Amazing how much groove one person can produce. Loved it! Just listened to this. Probably my favorite Miles record. I don’t think there has been a band that has reached quite this level of telepathic interplay and connection as this one. Tony Williams!!! https://youtu.be/nyAO3twW_Mkhttps://youtu.be/Tn1KJFs72XU |
Well, O-10, out of respect for you as the OP, I offer a sincere apology and will remove the post. Admittedly “edgy”, as they say, it was posted in humor only; something sorely lacking these days. Silly me, I thought you and/or others might get a chuckle. Personally, I find that SNL skit very funny in the context of the times. Kind of like Jazz, actually. Context. Anyway, in case anyone is curious, my offense was to post a rather “classic” SNL skit of “The Ladies Man”. “Most disgusting”? Where does one go from there? No offense intended. Cheers.
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Definitely very unusual. In case anyone is wondering why the piano sounds so weird, it’s a tack piano Harris is playing; a piano altered to sound (in this case) kind of like a harpsichord. BTW, Harris was a friend of Monk and actually lived with Monk in the Baroness’ pad for a while. Pretty good credentials for doing justice to the tune as well as being a great player in his own right. https://youtu.be/y79ax9ekqM4 |
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No need for name calling. You think it is. No problem. Btw, re detestation and The Duke’s authority. I’m a little confused, I thought:
**** Rok2id, a.k.a. the world’s foremost Jazz authority ****
😊
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Keegiam, classic Chick Corea tune. I think I know what you mean, but “Spain” has no time changes at all. After the slower introduction and the tune starts there are no time changes at all. It stays in 4/4 the whole time. The feeling of time changes is due to the very syncopated and “choppy” melody. If you haven’t heard it, the original is classic. https://youtu.be/sEhQTjgoTdUHere it is: https://www.scribd.com/doc/217761461/chick-corea-spain-pdf |
O-10, even after all this time it is a mystery to me why it’s not possible to have intelligent disagreement with you, without you feeling that you have to respond with at least some degree of personal negative comment. So you think it’s Jazz and I said, I’m not so sure. You draw the genre line at a different place than I. SO WHAT! Did I say it wasn’t good? No. As usual you miss the forest for the trees by leaning on the “label” aspect of it all; something that ultimately doesn’t matter. Who cares?! Regardless, let’s see......hmm.... Wynton?, O-10?, Wynton?, O-10? Wynton?, O-10?, Wynton?.......... yup! Btw, Donny McCaslin “stereotypical”? Seriously? Give me a break. https://youtu.be/cWGvsyeayFk |
O-10, I realize that I don’t have the great ability that you do to definitively define music genres, but I wondered if you noticed the uncanny similarities between the Kokoroco tune that you posted which I “wasn’t sure is Jazz” and much of the “Afrobeat” (Newen Afrobeat) music that you just posted? As an aside, to my ears Kokoroko is on a much higher level of musicianship; but, what do I know? |
Keegiam, I thought you were referring to “Spain”. You’re right, “Antidote” is even trickier with syncopations that are even more complicated. However, the tune is still in 4/4. When “trying to maintain 4/4 time” keep in mind that the downbeat of the tune is silent and the first note one hears (piano) is actually a syncopated note on the second 16th note of beat 1 of the first measure. The first piano left hand bass note that one hears (and later the brass and perc) is on the last 16th note of the first measure. Confusing matters even more is that the brass entrance of the same melody is a pickup note (16th) into the downbeat of the 5th measure of the tune. Stays in 4/4 the whole time. Classic Afro/Latin syncopation in which the “basic” 1,2,3,4 pulse is felt even though few instruments are actually playing on those downbeats. Nice tune. https://youtu.be/yn4KbJ1Xtsc |
O-10, they share the rhythmic foundation. What then makes one “Jazz” for you and not the other. Specifically, please.
And, btw, the only reason I’m asking any of this is that you reacted very strongly to my expressing doubt as to whether I would call it Jazz or not; as if I had somehow criticized the fact that FOR YOU it is Jazz. Hence the question. |
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O-10, those are more genre definitions which, as you yourself said, mean different things to each of us. You mentioned they share the rhythm ece of it. What is it, specifically, that makes one Jazz and not the other FOR YOU. |
Squarely in the middle of the umbrella. One of the things that a great recording artist considers is the order of the tunes on the record. This is one of my favorite records and there is something very right about the way the tunes, style wise and amount of time between tracks, seem to create a larger picture in total. The first half in particular; almost like the movements of symphony: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_k5H5SfwjK4k-xs6r2JALJmYJmXkDXXuL0 |
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O-10, I should have known better. Cheers. |
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Btw, I should have provided more info for the clips posted above since YouTube doesn’t provide it.
The rhythm section on both Steve Grossman ”Some Shapes To Come” (1974 debut album as a leader) and “Terra Firma” (1977) is Jan Hammer/keys, Gene Perla/bass and Don Alias/drums.
The wonderful chart played by Benny Goodman was written by the great Chico O’Farrill.
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Nice clip, Keegiam. Excellent Bird, Rok. Getting down to business. **** The rather abrupt endings being a disadvantage. **** At least they didn’t fade out. Ultimate cop out in Jazz. Pjw, glad you enjoyed the Steve Grossman clips. Great player who sadly passed away just a few months ago and who doesn’t get nearly enough press. Those clips were from his early Rock/Fusion period. He was also a great straight-ahead player out of a Coltrane mold. Here are a couple of other records that might interest you: https://youtu.be/E1ftFjPvRWIhttps://youtu.be/LMNSagqy9GUInteresting record of a Quintet that he co-led with Johnny Griffin. Very interesting and little known record that shows the contrast between the two great tenor players. Grossman, squarely in a more modern post-Coltrane style and Griffin (solo @2:04), the traditionalist. https://youtu.be/VzrN63bJ3TwAnother interesting record that he recorded featuring one of O-10’s favorite tenor players, Harold Land. Again, interesting contrast between the modernist Grossman and Land (solo @1:56) the traditionalist. https://youtu.be/nVq1FvE3-uUIn the early 70’s, following in the mold of the extended drums/saxophone solos that he would play while in Coltrane’s last Quartet, Elvin Jones led a piano-less Quartet featuring two saxophones in the front line; Steve Grossman and Dave Liebman; both Coltrane disciples. Killer record for hardcore tenor lovers. On this cut Liebman plays soprano and Grossman tenor: https://youtu.be/OZ_huWSzWCM |
Rok, I think that it can be said of Tatum; although, not with the same amount of relevance. Tatum was undoubtedly an influential player, but not to the degree that Bird was. He showed what was possible in Jazz as far as sheer virtuosity on the keyboard and he did expand the possibilities in the use of harmony. However, it is generally thought that his influence was not as far reaching as Bird’s. To support this distinction, consider the fact that Tatum’s influence was primarily on other piano players (Oscar Peterson is probably the best example). Bird was hugely influential with all instrumentalists and not just saxophone players. I think it could be said that Tatum was one of the players who cracked open the Bebop door and Bird threw it open.
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Fabulous Joe Henderson. Thanks. Trane, Sonny and Joe; the three greatest. I realize very well that any music needs to be judged on its own terms at least to some degree. However, while I appreciate her expressive tone, how any music critic (Pitchfork) can make this statement re Nubaya Garcia is beyond me. ”You can hear how she’s garnered comparisons to the greats: Dexter Gordon, Sonny Rollins, Gary Bartz.“ https://youtu.be/-sLHpRR_7Oshttps://youtu.be/PAVS3RpWm-Yhttps://youtu.be/9_VRZyIsKu8 |
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I am perfectly happy to, and do, ignore comments that I find to be mistaken at best. However, if alluding to me personally, you force me to respond on a level that I would very much prefer not to go to, O-10. Alas.
No, I did not “compare Nubya Garcia to Trane and some of the other greats”. The “critic” involved did. Instead, I commented on the fact that I found it amazing that a music critic would compare Garcia to Trane and other greats mentioned. If you are really interested and if I thought that things would not devolve into personal bs, I might be willing to explain why I feel the way I do. |
Keegiam, that “Old Folks” with Hutcherson and Locke is fantastic. Thanks. Hutcherson was possibly the greatest ever vibes player and Locke, the young(er) lion. They seem to be having a blast playing together. Beautiful musical interaction between the two. I first heard Joe Locke several years ago when I went to hear Eddie Daniels play at The Iridium. Had never heard Locke and was knocked out. This was the very band that I heard that night. Having concentrated on the clarinet for the past many years, some forget what a great tenor player Daniels is: https://youtu.be/kVDo6zU7fbAhttps://youtu.be/7iC1PkZYVdUhttps://youtu.be/SYnZBrr7CCsSpeaking of Eddie Daniels and Joe Henderson, a young Eddie Daniels holding his own with Joe; not an easy feat. It was in Thad and Mel’s Orchestra that Eddie started turning heads: https://youtu.be/WOhaMFY0MvE |
“Her voice looks great” 😊
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In keeping with probably the most important tenet in Jazz, Bill Frisell plays like no one else. A true original. Isn’t it interesting how his attitude when he speaks is very much like the way he plays? I always get the feeling that there is much more there than meets the eye. Might explain the statue of a screaming Sam Kinison on his desk. With apology to cat lovers, “there’s more than one way to skin a cat“: https://youtu.be/WxjE6V8OMfshttps://youtu.be/YTybBPWpJNM |
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**** Btw, on this thread the word ’Jazz’ should always be written with a capital ’J’. ****
Agreed and always have; without exception. Anyone who does not should have his/her “aficionado” * card revoked.
* lower case, of course. |
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**** let’s see, you scored points for praising his post, and you scored points for the negative dig at me, you’re moving up the ladder of the "mutual admiration society". ****
Orpheus10, I had nothing to do with this and have no need for point scoring; especially if attempted via a “dig” at anyone. That is how you operate; not I. You had no business bringing me into this latest conflict of yours; conflicts which are often the result of YOUR need to “score points”. An absurd and childish notion as demonstrated by your above comment. Truth is that you tend to use this thread as a vehicle for personal story telling (not all real, by your own admission); sometimes even more so than simply for sharing and discussing the music. When you don’t score points you often act like a mean spirited old man. Interesting how truth always has a way of revealing itself.
Now, before you go off the deep end with additional provocative retorts and make matters even worse, try and take a step back and look at how this latest issue developed. Please keep your indignation where it belongs. Even better, take a look at the title of your last posted clip. Perhaps there is a lesson in there for you.
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