Jazz for aficionados
Thanks, pjw. I did watch the documentary. I’ve been well aware of Dafnis for a long time. I worked with him shortly after his arrival from Cuba. He is a monster drummer and a heck of a nice guy. You may enjoy this; I have posted this here a couple of times previously. Much more than meets the eye; his sense and control of time is unbelievable: https://youtu.be/YXpxsXC4Tdw |
Glad you liked the clips, O-10. Cuba has a very rich musical history with several different sub-genres each defined by the specific rhythms used. “Son” and “Bolero”, which seem to be your favorites are only two of several; none more “Cuban” nor more popular than any other. Of course, Salsa and Timba which contain elements of all those genres along with American Jazz and Pop are the most popular currently. To expound on your comments on “Bantu”, it should also be pointed out that Bantu is actually a group of languages spoken in Central to Southern Africa which includes Zulu and Swahili. As you know, due to the huge influx of African slaves into Brazil it is one of the languages that was part of the mix of languages that would ultimately and currently be referred to as Brazilian Portuguese. Portuguese being the language of the European colonizers of Brazil. I would question whether Bantu, in pure form, is currently spoken in Brazil; but rather is one of the components of the overwhelmingly Portuguese-based language of the country along with the, to be expected, components of the language of indigenous Brazilian peoples. Fascinating history. Interesting reading with analysis on the topic: https://vc.bridgew.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1057&context=br_rev https://youtu.be/oQVZtkp4HQY https://youtu.be/Y7DGH9t6fCo |
It was Larry Young’s birthday today! https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lJbHJ3w3iTb0yZO0b_Q_aDcv3j5UjfpzA I would have led off with this one, but I’ve posted it at least twice previously. One of my favorite records: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nqeyHFph6j7oela51Da3lb7b-OemqwN6M |
Where is Rok? I hope he’s doing ok. I think he may have locked himself in his library so as to not be disturbed while he reads Giddins’ “Celebrating Bird” for the tenth time. So much to learn; so little time! Get ready, y’all, detailed analysis and explanation of “Indiana changes” forthcoming 😊. On the other hand, he may simply be putting the finishing touches on the Ornette Coleman in effigy piñata that will be the highlight of today’s Jazz birthday celebration. Happy birthday, Pepper! https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_k45MgX_auRb6uySHZerEDXSiY8-tncXts |
pjw, “Sonny Side Up” is one of the ten or so Jazz records I would save if my house were burning down. Love that record; amazing swing feel and really interesting contrast between the two Sonny’s. Stitt, right out of Bird‘s bebop. Rollins, looking ahead. Great stuff. Thanks for that. That amazing swing feel is in no small part due to Charlie Persip’s drumming. Also known as great big band drummer (not all good drummers are good big band drummers), one of the most important parts of Charlie Persip’s legacy is the big band which he led for many years since the 80’s. He called it “Superband” (later, “Supersound”) and it became a NYC institution. Bands such as Persip’s are a very important and under appreciated part of the Jazz scene in cities like NYC. They offer young or new to the city players a chance to play and be heard by other Jazz players; an opportunity to make their mark. A couple more great records with Persip: https://youtu.be/WiQfOKMBaKU As sideman: https://youtu.be/d2yQAfOqTf4 https://youtu.be/u_Glr2mcICE Another one that I would grab as I’m running out the door 😱: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnKUsyUYbuBvpvdXiWDk9OkloRI6FJKNn |
O-10, I agree; beautiful balance of all the contributions to the performance. “No musician played too many notes” and no hotdogging. One can clearly hear how Persip is listening intently to what the soloists are saying without overwhelming. Some drummers “demand“ that they be followed. Others like Persip add to and enhance what the soloist is doing. Subtle little accents and snare rolls to frame the soloist’s phrases and to signal the beginning of a chorus or entrance of a new soloist. Very tasteful playing. |
Speaking of interesting: 1966, Jim Pepper, Larry Coryell, Bob Moses. British Invasion vibe meets early roots of fusion. Interesting to hear a Brecker(ish) saxophone sound before there was a Brecker. https://youtu.be/cSijFDnYnfg https://youtu.be/Zf95lF1Nb5Y |
O-10, I hope that there can be disagreement without things turning sour. That is a premise that you have expressed many times here. I don’t understand why you make such an assertion. While it is true that African musical traditions were transported by slaves to the countries you mention (and others), it is highly unlikely that those traditions would then simply be erased from native African culture. While millions of Africans were removed from their homeland, many millions more remained behind to continue those musical traditions. It defies logic that those traditions would disappear. I hear the impact of those traditions in current African music; and I am no expert on African music, nor have I been to Africa to walk around the villages on a Saturday night. We can disagree about that, but consider the fact that there is no reason that the music in Africa would not have evolved just as Jazz, America’s ethnic music, did; incorporating those old traditions into a more modern sound. This is the way it always is with any ethnic music. Moreover, just as there are “retro” Jazz artists still playing Ragtime and Dixieland, I have no doubt that there are drummers in Africa that can still play in the style of those centuries old drumming traditions. Interesting stuff. |
Fabulous! Absolutely killing. So, what makes great falafel? For the foodie that I am, always trying to learn to be a better cook, learning that the secret to great falafel is cilantro was not only a revelation, but it was something strange and unexpected. Cilantro is a flavor prominent in Latin cuisine. It’s like going home. Falafel? It’s in there, but you don’t recognize it as such. There are possible historical reasons for all this. What does this have to do with “Blues In Maud’s Flat“? Jack McDuff. It’s the secret to why that cut feels so good. It’s in there, but you don’t recognize it as such, even when it’s supposed to be about the soloist. Amazing groove from McDuff. Great cut. Btw, O-10, re the topic of a different thread, that is the blues; by any standard. |
Capoeira is analogous to Santeria in the Caribbean Islands; both were developed by slaves transplanted to other countries in order to disguise the true purpose of the practices. Capoeira was developed in Brazil, ostensibly as a dance, to disguise the fact that it was a fighting technique; not something that slave owners would condone for obvious reasons. In the Caribbean, Santeria was a way for the slaves to practice their outlawed native religions by giving the native deity the names of Roman Catholic saints. The reason that it is not found in Africa is simple; it was never there. |
Beautiful Baden Powell, O-10. Thanks for that. **** what I’ve heard that was Afro in Brazil which is so different from anything I’ve heard from Africa. I stated that some of Africa was transported to the America’s and no longer exists on that continent. I still believe this but it is impossible to prove.**** O-10, its impossible to prove because it isn’t so. With respect, this is along the same lines as your assertions that there is no link between Delta Blues and Jazz because the two are so different......on the surface. Or, that there is no link or lineage between Swing and Bebop. The link lies below the surface. The Baden Powell clip shows a clear African rhythm component while still sounding very different than anything native to Africa due to the equally clear melodic and harmonic component which is NOT African in origin, but European and indigenous Brazilian instead. Any “African” music heard in the America’s during our time would have been, just like Baden Powell’s music was in Brazil, a mixture of the influences of African culture and all the other ethnic cultures that were (are) found in the New Orleans area. That is why it sounds different. As you may know I like food analogies when discussing music. They are very applicable to music. With Thanksgiving coming up my wife and I are already discussing the dinner menu. All bias aside, my mashed potatoes are always loved by all. 😋 How exciting can the lowly mashed potatoes be? The secret to why my mashed potatoes taste so good? Horse radish! Just enough and no more; so that one can’t taste it as such. In all the years that I’ve been making the mashed potatoes, no one has been able to identify the secret ingredient. However, if you remove it from the mix the dish becomes just plain old boring mashed potatoes. It’s in there....below the surface. |
Speaking for myself, Alex is correct. I don’t know Tidal from cassettes. LP’s and CD’s (reluctantly) are what I’m into . YouTube, whenever I leave my audiophile hat in the closet; which is often. Stick around, pscar and don’t let any of this deter you, Bottom line: **** I just discovered this thread and have enjoyed it immensely. **** |
O-10, there is no point in arguing about this. I don’t believe your premise is based in fact. That’s fine, we are all free to believe what we believe. Must be my inferior DNA, but I hear nothing particularly unique about any of the music in that music score; some of which strikes me as being akin (in authenticity) to that in some Hollywood depictions of “Native American music“ in old Westerns. BTW, Santeria (with an a) is not found in Africa. Just like the mysterious and “unique” music found only in Brazil it is a BLEND of practices; a blend of the African Yoruba religion and Roman Catholicism. Thanks for the clips. |
Re a recent comment on Fusion. My favorite Fusion band: https://youtu.be/sF9kW-8NPqs Great, but I think I prefer the melody on soprano. https://youtu.be/BYyxvFZBeqc |
O-10, no, I did not say that. As you may recall, the issue at hand was your assertion that there was music (or rhythms) native to Africa that ceased to exist in Africa when slaves took it (them) to other countries when enslaved. A notion that I believe is not true and that defies logic. However, although you misinterpreted my comment, your misinterpretation is actually correct in fact. Santeria was developed in Cuba for the reasons I mentioned previously and can still be found there and in other Caribbean countries; actually, also here in the USA. It is not and was never in Africa because there was no need for it. Btw, “Santeria” is a Spanish word with the literal meaning “the worship of saints”. It is not an African word. Re the “African rhythm unique to Brazil”: With respect, I believe you are conflating a couple of different things. Being “unique to Brazil”, even of true and even if the practitioners are of African descent, does not necessarily make it “African”. By the time that there existed any documentation (never mind recordings) of Afro/Brazilian music, just as with all music transplanted to other lands, the influence of indigenous Brazilian (and European) musics would have been well absorbed into a synthesis of all those to become what we recognize as Brazilian music. Having said all that, I am intrigued by the idea of this “unique” rhythm. Please provide an example of it. If no recorded example is available, please explain in detail what about this rhythm made it unique as compared to other rhythms. Also, if no recorded example exists, I would have to respectfully ask “how do you know?” Thanks a lot. I look forward to learning more about this rhythm. |
Wynton at his best. This is featured in a separate thread; I thought it might be of value to some who are not Jazz fans. https://youtu.be/GN09R2ryJ7o |
So, let me get this straight, O-10. According to your own words, you claim to “being able to distinguish various African rhythms“ due to your DNA; even though you are from a different continent and live centuries later. Yet, the DNA of African slaves, the very folks who lived those rhythms in Africa, and their descendants had that DNA completely erased when brought to the America’s. Got it! |
I love many of the post-Coltrane tenor players; and, of course, none as much as Trane himself. However, I have a soft spot for many of the players that came out of the Swing and Big Band eras with a tone approach which was both softer edged, but very still very husky. One of my favorites is Eddie “Lockjaw” Davis. One of the most expressive and exciting players from that era with a wonderfully traditional and “slippery” tone approach, but with note choices that lean more to the Bebop era. Really interesting way to walk the line between the two eras. https://youtu.be/5Nb1GWx_tPo Those familiar with Quincy Jones’ “Killer Joe” might recognize the great flute playing on the following cuts. Jerome Richardson; someone deserving more attention here: https://youtu.be/0N_tzcg5MqY https://youtu.be/t0I0OIAY5rc Interesting commentary: https://youtu.be/-6Oz10Rho4A (( https://youtu.be/aASXNyc6xmY )) |
Great! Boy, you sure do know how to get my attention. Great mp. One of the reasons that a vintage NY Meyer 5 (must be “NY”) fetches the price it does; at one time (and still) “everyone“ wanted to sound like Phil. Awesome player and composer. Besides being as great a soloist as he was, he was also one of the greatest lead alto players ever. Speaking of Quincy Jones: https://youtu.be/XRBwOrxDrCs https://youtu.be/fZCeGkpPVdU https://youtu.be/qcCO174zQl8 https://youtu.be/kcm5iDT5l-c I have posted this at least twice before. If you want to know the history of that NY Meyer 5 (and much more): https://youtu.be/6SJxmCzYpoo |
pjw, guess whose birthday it is today? https://youtu.be/f-vgA3V8O30 https://youtu.be/i4CuJuzKlPI https://youtu.be/XL-f0-4xjuk |
pjw, fabulous Byas clip. Thanks. Look closely at the horn he’s playing. That is the very horn that James Carter played and talks about on the interview clip. Tell tale signs (video is not great): “DONBYAS” engraved on the inside lip of the bell. Look at the unusual raised “rocker”. That is the piece on the top of the neck (where the mouthpiece goes). Yup, that’s the one. Cool! Re your question: Each horn has a certain sound/personality that affects the final tone produced by a player to varying degrees. However, a player’s tone is mostly about the way the player plays the horn; how he voices the sound of each note for the desired sound. The mouthpiece and reed also play a role. A special horn will make it easier for a player to produce the sound he hears in his head. |
keegiam, I too was a big Coryell fan; one of greatest guitar heroes and one with a very wide stylistic range. My first exposure to Coryell was with his band “Eleventh House“ during my college Fusion days. I didn’t follow his career much in more recent years for no particular reason. A few years ago when we got a place in upstate NY I would occasionally come across notices for local performances featuring a Murali Coryell. I always wondered if there was any relation and went to check out this local guitar player/singer at a local club and found out that he was one of two guitar playing sons of the great Larry Coryell. This caused me to revisit some of those old Coryell records and to check out his newer stuff. Incredibly talented and versatile musical family; especially, of course, father Coryell. One or my first Fusion records: https://youtu.be/KmCsvQdKxNM https://youtu.be/VxP-pw7H8qU https://youtu.be/4Oeo94NZOf4 With another favorite guitar player: https://youtu.be/73ERRvWW7hY The Coryells: https://youtu.be/ZaXAEBVEFOk |
Man, business is slow! Takeout only? Birthday time! One of my very favorite composer/orchestrators. Two very popular charts penned during his long association with Count Basie: https://youtu.be/s0igE09HI1U https://youtu.be/5_Mtgo9WOL0 A younger generation’s take on the same tunes: https://youtu.be/UtNTFUxz0rQ https://youtu.be/HOoby3jOEG0 Very successful in the film/tv world also: https://youtu.be/XwIt58mdz6Y And, of course: https://youtu.be/vWUn6tzOAwU |
Keegiam, I completely agree with your reaction to the Mintzer recordings and I appreciate the reasonableness of your comments, especially those about “Lil’ Darlin“. You are relatively new to the thread, so allow me to explain in case it is not obvious. Personally, I sometimes like to post certain clips to try and inspire reactions and commentary and not necessarily because I think the clips are particularly great. When I do think they are great it will be obvious. So, thanks for “biting”. BTW, given the subject of the thread (Hefti) it should be noted that while the Mintzer’s recordings are the same tunes they are not Hefti’s arrangements, they are Mintzer’s. That was the whole point of posting Mintzer; the different generational approaches to the same tunes. I do like Mintzer’s own compositions/arrangements in a modern bag, but that’s a different story. Now, re your comment “unbearably slow and I engaging”. Basie recorded Hefti’s “Li’l Darlin” several times at many different tempos including some very slow versions. That chart became a staple of many working big bands’ repertoire and, for better or for worse, it became “a thing” to see just how slowly the band could play it without things falling apart. I posted this a while back. Same Hefti arrangement, almost as slow as Mintzer’s. Engaging? You bet. (Snooky Young kills me on this): https://youtu.be/RlX0b-AJWz4 Slowest recorded “Li’l Darlin” I’ve heard. Engaging? Different vibe altogether. Engaging in a typical Ray Charles funky way: https://youtu.be/zHZnt8S6Xzc |
Short on time so apology for the short response....for now (Alex). Re players’ tones and descriptions of them, something to keep in mind that may help. It is impossible to separate tone and its description from how the player initiates the note (the attack) of the note and the inflections of the tone that the player uses. A fascinating study was done of players’ tones which demonstrated that if several players with very different tones are recorded playing one note and sustaining it, if the the initial attack and end of the sustained note are edited out the different players’ tones become almost indistinguishable from each other. Eddie Lockjaw plays with an extremely inflected tone. |
Speaking of Brazil and of the great Shirley Horn. Sings the songs of Antonio Carlos Jobim: https://youtu.be/JdAFQ-RcDiE https://youtu.be/xVNp7ynWQ3w https://youtu.be/5FE9jPXrl8A |
O-10, with respect, I think you may be mixing up a couple of things re the origins of Brazilian music and its African component. **** Something had to be added to the Anacondas, Native Americans, plus the Portuguese music to make the music that is so common in Brazil today. Could it have come in on those slave ships I see on the horizon? Could it have sounded like this. **** That is all true.....except the last sentence. All those influences that you mention including the rhythmic component melded into what we recognize as Brazilian music. However, it is only the rhythmic component that has its origins in Africa. The melodic and harmonic components (and language) are very much Portuguese and never existed in Africa. So, no, one doesn’t find music that sounds like that in Africa for the simple reason that it never did....except the rhythmic component (in part). That rhythm, by itself, is a common African rhythm still found in African music and, by extension, in Afro-Latin music. A similar process, with some different and some similar ingredients became Jazz. Re the instruments used: Instruments are always just a means to an end. The sound of the berimbau is a signature sound in Brazilian music and as you point out it had its origins in Africa; the “kalumbu”. It did not cease to exist in Africa when the slaves took it to Brazil and still exists and is used in African music. https://youtu.be/wk5c-VsKn1E https://youtu.be/u5uPqqZPrbM Bottom line: Brazilian music is wonderful as you say. The sophistication of European melodic and harmonic tradition and the rhythm tradition of Africa. |
O-10; you may find this interesting. Highly recommended. It is downloadable. https://www.jstor.org/stable/3519832?seq=1 |
Seems like an appropriate time to post this again. Interesting Grammy Award winning large scale work by one of the most talented members of Wynton’s JALC Orchestra. The interludes featuring famous presidential speeches makes the work particular interesting. https://youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kUrSXjrpOD_Y7Cpnl7F2dAqJal8eZ8ubY (120,000 !?!?!?!) |
Re JSTOR and 120,000: An acquaintance told me a cute story recently, Being foodies both, and with a sweet tooth, we had been talking about our favorite Pepperidge Farm cookies. He recounted how he had once packed a lunch that included PF “Milano” cookies and a banana. The banana had gotten squashed inside his gig bag and had drooled all over the bag of cookies. Upon tasting the cookies they tasted like....”Banana Milanos”. He actually called the Pepperidge Farm corporate office to suggest a new cookie flavor. Their response was.........“ah, thanks for the suggestion, but please don’t call us, we’ll call you”. True story. 😊 All in good fun. |
Gorgeous Johnny Hodges! Love that recording, O-10. Thanks for that. Even Duke performed covers. “Indian Summer” was written by Victor Herbert, not Duke or Strayhorn. Billy Strayhorn had such a distinctive voice as composer. All his tunes have a certain identifiable personality, https://youtu.be/_ww-XDuaxcw https://youtu.be/4t9q5nRernk https://youtu.be/5mewtuS7mkQ |
Keegiam, it will not come as a surprise that I agree with what you wrote and this is not intended to pile on against O-10’s theories on the matter. I’ve done plenty of that already because I simply don’t agree with a premise that, as you suggest, defies logic and to me is inaccurate and incomplete at best. It is a fascinating topic that actually deserves more accuracy since it is actually quite relevant to the subject and history of this thread, Jazz. Ironically, and inaccurately, the universally accepted idea that the influence of African musical tradition is one of the key ingredients of Jazz has been staunchly denied by O-10 and another participant here on many occasions. Ironically, this opposing view is in direct contradiction to the much more accurate premise discussed now that those traditions were transplanted to Brazil where they became part of the cultural mix that created “Brazilian music“. Why anyone would think that the same would not happen in America is a mystery to me. Of course, it did happen. Personally, I think that a closer look at all this is important because the music and the culture of a people deserve a more complete and honest look and not one romanticized by unverifiable personal notions and incomplete “facts“. A very interesting actual fact is that in many African cultures there is no word for “music” or “dance”. One of the main reasons that the way this topic is being discussed here is incomplete at best is that it is being discussed through a Western lens and a Western theoretical framework. Our notion of what music and dance are is a Western abstraction and in many ways is not applicable to a discussion of African music since “music” in Africa was inextricably linked to every day life and utilitarian in nature in many ways. The idea that there were 120,000 different African rhythms is....well, to quote O-10, “I don’t want to be offensive”; but, then, I don’t have the musical acumen to be able to identify 120,000 different rhythms ☺️. I am reminded of driving North through Portugal to cross the border into Spain’s North Western tip in order to visit distant relatives in the small town of Verin where my maternal grandfather was born. It was fascinating to experience how at every stop along the way from Lisbon to Verin the Portuguese language literally morphed closer and closer to Spanish until just over the border in Verin it was identifiable as Spanish. With many remnants of Portuguese still, but (obviously) still using the same alphabet and syntax . This is probably very similar to what happened from village to village in Africa. The rhythms (inextricably linked to language) in the various villages in Africa while having different “accents” or even being different dialects shared the same “alphabet” and “syntax”. They survived. As always, O-10, I appreciate your passion for all this and I hope there can be disagreement without drama. |
O-10, it runs much deeper than that and I have previously given you several specific examples of, among other things, the origin of “blue notes” in Jazz, the origin of the idea of “call and response” in music, the origin of “swing feel” as it is defined in Jazz; all with roots in African musical tradition. Theshe concepts are most certainly universally accepted. Read any authoritative musicological text, tome, book, treatise...whatever, for ample explanation and evidence; not to mention, the opinions of just about every Jazz musician that has been discussed here. Those opinions are well represented as well. Influence as part of the cultural mix, just as in Brazil. Influence, O-10, INFLUENCE. Anyway, I’m moving on. |
With respect, your first mistake is assuming that the first wave consisted only of “Batista’s”. Moreover, “enthralled” is rather demeaning of the very real and morally principled reasons that many joined the first wave; which were, in short, to escape the inevitable and resultant oppression and to seek freedom. TV? Again, with respect, the notion diminishes the values of a culture that believes in self reliance, hard work, family, God and freedom. TV has little to do with it. In fact, I would say that those values have been passed on to the younger generation IN SPITE OF television. Regards. |
You just did. Actually, you first heard it three or four years ago when I posted it. You liked it then and I’m glad to see you still like it. Whether you, O-10, can hear it or not is not an indication that it is not there. Maybe 120,000 of anything is just too much to handle; confuses one’s brain. Great record. Pepper kills. |
As Alex suggests, it’s important to be a “big boy”; and that applies to everyone here. Being a big boy also includes taking responsibility for one’s words and how they are conveyed; during and after the fact. There is a way to disagree, even vehemently, while still showing respect to the person that one is disagreeing with. Respect includes not making self aggrandizing claims that are exclusionary and which are no more than opinion not backed up by anything verifiably factual. The notion of subjectivity in music ends beyond what our individual personal preferences are. Beyond that, there is little that has not been covered authoritatively and demonstrably and can be verified. Unless of course, ego is at work and the grand opinions are shown to be no more than bs. Glad you’re sticking around, keegiam. Nice Lateef! |
