I thought we had moved on from“Somethin Else” . Alas. That players sometimes play the same tune in different ways goes without saying. Now, re the two versions of “Love For Sale” :
Thanks for making my point for me. What is the most important thing that both have in common? On both, it is a Miles, not Cannonball, that makes the statement of the melody, Just as in the case of a vocalist band leader who sings the tune and then the sidemen in the band follow with solos, Miles “sings” the melody and the sidemen (Cannonball) follow with solos; both times, Why is it not Cannonball playing the melody on “his” record with Miles soloing afterwards? |
O-10, with respect, there is no logic to your argument. First of all, if you want to go down that road, you can start by suggesting that it be called a “Ronnie Cuber” album. That is Ronnie Cuber, not Adams. Secondly, it is not about logic; it is about practice and tradition. Mingus was a rhythm section player. Bass is not a typical melody instrument in a Jazz band. Mingus’ records were first and foremost about Mingus the composer, not Mingus the soloist...usually.
O-10, we can let it go now. You have your opinion and I have mine. I’m good with that. You want to believe you’re correct; I’m good with that too.
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**** First, the Miles Davis cult stated that KOB was better than "Somethin Else" ****
No, O-10, that’s not how this silly argument started. No one stated that KOB was “better” than SE. YOU went out of your way to put down KOB and stated that SE was not only “better” than KOB, but that “there are more records than one can shake a stick at that are better than KOB”. The whole concept of “better” being a silly notion when speaking of two records representative on two entirely different periods in the life of an innovative giant like Miles and a ground breaking record like KOB which is entirely different from SE conceptually.
You like SE’s more traditional vibe more than KOB’s modal sound. That’s fine and no one is trying to make you change your mind. Can we please move on now? |
“Expression”:
I would agree it is not the most accessible, but it was a direct and demonstrably natural place for his playing to be at. I certainly would not think of attaching “fault” to any of the music. Not disjointed at all, but free of the usual constraints of comfortable and recognizable form. Not your typical “Chin, Chin, kaChin kind of a Jazz. Pure and free “Expression”. He would be dead a few months later.
If you follow all the clips posted (and more) with an eye for dates and a timeline you can hear his playing heading in that direction. I believe the quote you posted was something along the lines of Trane “found it impossible to coast”. To a creative artist coasting is playing what he has done or played before. Think about it, if he’s always trying to play something new....is it any wonder that’s were his playing ended up? We may find it “inaccessible”, but there is a certain beauty to the process.
What amps are you using now?
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Rok, it really would be unfair and probably unproductive for me to give you specific amp recommendations. I don’t know your particular amps, but I’m sure that they sound good. My recommendation is simply to stay open minded about the impact that a very good (musical) amp can have on the listening experience.
I have played with this stuff for many years and in different price ranges, but haven’t heard any of the amps that you own except for the Yamaha which a friend used to own. I think it is a good and probably a better sounding amp than the amp section in your integrated amps. I’m very curious what you think of the Oppo/Yamaha. |
Rok, very important if you do decide to try the Yamaha again. Sounds like you haven’t used it in while. Play at least an entire CD before judging; needs to warm up...seriously. |
What can one say about that record that hasn’t been said a thousand times. Awesome.
Make sure you have speakers hooked up to the amp before you turn it on. Any speakers. |
You got it! Happens all the time.
Perhaps not so much in this case. They are co-leaders and I’m sure that was the intention. Notice the order of the names; alphabetical, the default way to do it when the performers are to be considered equals: “Cannonball and Coltrane”. “Adderley and Coltrane” doesn’t have nearly as much ring 😊. Other records that shall remain nameless....what you suggest definitely happens or are factors. |
**** where I come from, we use candlelight only if somebody is dead or if power supply is down...:--) ****
What?! That is horrible. No candle light?! No sweet nothings in one’s ear?! No footsies?! NO NANCY WILSON?!!!
You continue to crush my fantasy. Now that it doesn’t matter at all I can safely let you know one thing: I have all my teeth.
Somehow, I feel better; like a weight has been lifted. Thank you. Hey, speaking of down power supplies:
Q: Did you hear about the power outage at the Mississippi State University library?
A: Thirty students were stuck on the escalator for three hours.
😊 |
Speaking of candle light dinners and footsies; and to beat Rok to the punch 😊:
“My love life in NYC is terrible. The last time I was inside a woman was when I visited the Statue of Liberty.” —Woody Allen
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Pryso gives good advise re amps. |
The Yamaha is a well built amp and good sounding for a ss amp from that period. I have a hunch it will sound noticeably better than your integrateds, old age and all. The reason for my recommendation was for you to hear that amps do sound different, nothing more. I think you might be surprised and if you are careful I see no downside to trying it keeping in mind that it will probably not sound as good as new as pryso says. Good luck.
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Rok, honest question: what exactly are you trying to accomplish with a possible foray into audiophilia; or, at least, some new gear? Functionality or sound concerns, or curiosity?
Btw, I bought the current $500 model Oppo everything-player for a HT setup and I must say it sounds amazingly good for the money...for a cd (everything) player ☺️
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Pretty funny.
Hey, why not? Staying on that politically incorrect bus and speaking of candle light dinners:
Q: What’s the most popular pick up line in Mississippi?
A: Hey, nice tooth |
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**** Two Jazz Divas, and Nancy Wilson walk in a bar.**** That’s pretty good. In Jazz, that’s called “influence”. Can’t escape it 😊. About two weeks or so ago I posted: ”Two musicians and a drummer walk into a bar” Great Sarah. One of my favorites of hers. Those Mercury’s are awesome. Her voice changed quite a bit as she got older, getting huskier and her diction less precise over the years. Amazing singer. Going back 12 years. Leaner voice, more precise diction. Not a bad thing. Another favorite of mine. Ernie Wilkins arrangements. Cannonball killing on alto. Not too often we get to hear Cannon leading a section: https://youtu.be/aKAR2n5Pd_Qhttps://youtu.be/0hmg-uPsbgQhttps://youtu.be/Fra23n_wHMAhttps://youtu.be/WW6b6vVdodc |
pjw, great Sarah! Beautiful record. Thanks for that. |
We have consensus so far. 1963. But, man, that 1954 is gorgeous as well in a very different way. Gorgeous singing. In some ways the difference between live and a studio recording. Audience and no audience.
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This was my first SV record and still one of my favorites. Probably my favorite period (70s) for the sheer sound of her voice. It had the huskiness, but her diction hadn’t gotten exaggerated yet. She sounds in complete command. Amazing. https://youtu.be/meoiTxJofOshttps://youtu.be/MnUqorTHj74https://youtu.be/4PToSZylkkA(Could do without the hand clapping, but when was the last time an audience stayed in time and stayed on 2 and 4 for the entire tune?) |
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**** Like Bowie, an acquired taste, maybe, but after you acquire it, wow!! **** Took me a while to get her. Your “play” analogy is apt. To my mind she is the only singer who could reach the same level of inventiveness as the great instrumentalists. I guess your taste for her came on very suddenly, it was only a few days ago that you deemed her “too New York-ish for this country boy” 😊 Great clips! Two favorite records of hers. Thirty years apart. https://youtu.be/1gTkukuz7gIhttps://youtu.be/6La4A1Dy2p4https://youtu.be/qgdn9DIdLkEhttps://youtu.be/6La4A1Dy2p4(talk about different) |
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Curious, have you ever even been to NY?
Great Sinatra; no doubt...if in the mood. Sometimes there is just something in what he projects that rubs me the wrong way. No NY, though.
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**** I spent ten years over NYC one night. ****
Joe, is that you?
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Now we’re talking. What a band! The first note by the brass is so tight it’s scary. Very NYC.....one piece of it. Probably the greatest swing clarinet player. Thanks. |
It’s birthday party time again! Without a doubt, one of the most under appreciated Jazz musicians. It is Idrees Sulieman’s birthday today. Has only gotten a couple of casual mentions here. Come to think of it, I think Alex posted something with Sulieman as sideman. Very inventive improviser with a very personal sound and even more personal swing feel. Have liked his playing since first hearing him in the Kenny Clark/Francy Boland Big Band recordings. https://youtu.be/noBdKNqE4L8https://youtu.be/OhMLTP2crOUhttps://youtu.be/GNkFCDPpN70 |
**** One of the few things I truly envy you for. ****
Only a few? Let me tell you about the pizza, the bagels and lox........my good looks? 😊 |
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Alex,
Actually, in my 45 years as a professional musician, Rok is the only person (O-10, sometimes, not so much other times) that I have ever encountered that so adamantly contests what is universally accepted as how Jazz came to be; a melting pot of cultural/ethnic influences expressed in music. Wynton is far from being the first person to state what he did in that video; his ideas are anything but novel. Jazz musicians have been talking about these things for decades and there is a tremendous amount of musicological opinion written that explains, analyzes and supports what Wynton says. All this is also readily available on line. Also, and perhaps you’ve missed it, but this issue has been the subject of debate and contention here many times since the very beginning of this thread. And you’re correct, why would Wynton put his reputation in jeopardy? He wouldn’t.
Re “ideology”:
I used the word, not Rok. You assumed incorrectly that my use of the word “ideology” refers to politics. You also assumed incorrectly that my political views differ from Rok’s; I share his views in many respects. I don’t know what all that the word “politics” means to you, but this is my definition of “ideology” for the purpose of this discussion (from the dictionary):
“- ideology: the science of ideas; the study of their origin and nature.”
It could certainly refer to politics, but not necessarily and not what I was alluding to when I used the word. The irony in all this is that it is all easily demonstrable. What Wynton did in his explanations is only the tip of the iceberg of all that can be demonstrated. The problem is that to understand it one has to be able to speak the language of music at least on a rudimentary level; or, at least be open minded about understanding basic principles.
Sadly, and as demonstrated just above, some simply don’t know what they are talking about. Case in point:
**** It is the musical expression of complex emotions that can only be expressed musically. ****
Sounds good, insightful, in a way; but, mistaken due to its needless exclusivity. Tell that to a great poet, or painter, or sculptor, or writer, or film maker, or...
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**** In documentary Wynton talks about history of music and jazz and he says ’this led to that’ and so on (’there was swing, than came the bop’, etc) So, if we follow that line, it looks quite logical, even the musical examples are making sense, it seems that really some styles are developed from the previous ones, or on the base of it.**** That is exactly right; it is quite logical. It is even more logical when, as you noted, the musical examples make the point. This goes to another one of the misconceptions about this music on the part of some. There have been many attempts to discuss this here with, unfortunately, little success. Some think that, for instance, bebop appeared in a vacuum; that all of a sudden ”Modern Jazz” appeared independent of what came before it. Far from it. The evolutionary process in Jazz is one of the most important in understanding the music. Btw, same idea applies to Classical music; the music of one era builds on what was done before. The evolution of Jazz builds on what was done before. Bebop could not have occurred had there been no swing; it built on what swing did. Swing could not have occurred had there been no Ragtime; it built on what Ragtime did. **** At which point do you think that jazz, as music form was created, pure and free from any possible previous influences? **** Did not happen that way. Could not have happened that way. That is the whole point of the evolutionary process. Even in its infancy, Jazz was built on previous influences. In Ragtime, Scott Joplin created a music style which has as a primary feature the syncopated, or jagged, rhythms of the Cuban “Habanera”; which itself was built on the influences of European and African music. Is it a surprise that Cuba is very near New Orleans? Then we had W.C. Handy who collected folk songs as he travelled through Mississippi which used what we now know as “the blues form”. Jelly Roll Morton is credited with “creating” Jazz around the turn of the 20th century by incorporating the jagged rhythms of Ragtime with the “Blues” sound and form. Btw, it is probably best, for the sake of a discussion such as this and to avoid confusion, to not use “form” as a synonym for “style”. “Form” is a particular structure that a music or specific piece of music uses as its framework. For example, the Blues typically uses a repeated 12 measure form. Important elements of what we call “Blues” can be demonstrably traced to Africa. The elements of harmony in Ragtime and Blues can be demonstrably traced to Europe. I don’t think it needs to be explained why there existed the cultural influences of Europe and Africa in places like Cuba and New Orleans. All these cultural influences came together in then very cosmopolitan New Orleans in a melting pot of musical ideas to create Jazz; and that was the foundation for all the Jazz styles that followed. Jazz is a continuum of concepts and ideas that builds on and expands on concepts that preceded it; all with the underlying primary concept of freedom (improvisation). This is why Jazz is considered the quintessential American art form. As American culture developed (for better or for worse) this development (evolution) was reflected in the changing Jazz styles. Think about what was happening politically in America and with the encroachment of technology in American culture and you will find an almost perfect parallel in Jazz. https://youtu.be/oUaLc1zabVo |
Some political views; thank you 🙄 Speaking of nuance, remember it is not just between Rok and I; it is between the whole of the Jazz community and Rok (and O-10, sometimes, mostly, when he needs Rok’s approval 😊). He, of course, knows better than anyone what the true motivations for the expressed opinions of Jazz greats and musicologists are; not to mention what the nuances of the inner workings of music industry politics are. One becomes an expert on those things in HS band ☺️ Btw, I love Abbey Lincoln. A unique voice who wrote some very interesting songs; many with social consciousness themes. https://youtu.be/YTeacoeAm9oBtw, I do have to be careful. More importantly, I welcome and am still waiting for intelligent reactions and comments about my earlier examples to O-10 on Swing/Bop. Please make it more than “you’re wrong”. Why is always nice. Stretch out, you can do it. I promise it won’t hurt.....probably. |
**** Also, I do not beleive that anybody would consider jazz to be less significant because its creators have been influenced or exposed to other styles of music which they incorporated to that new sound.
Why is that even an issue?****
Excellent point and excellent question. I have some thoughts on the matter, but ultimately I think it comes down to human nature and how difficult it is for most of us to admit, if only to ourselves, that we have been wrong about something for a long time.
**** I wonder why the people who can talk music to death can not play music to death****
By that ridiculous notion (and silly attempt at a dig) it could be said that Bird, Blakey, Desmond, Coltrane, Miles.....you name it, “could not play music to death”. All, and just about every Jazz musician of any standing, have supported what Wynton speaks of and many have been very vocal about it.
None of this knowledge is necessary to enjoy the music. However, it can definitely add an entirely new dimension to the experience and enjoyment of it. Why some feel the need to take that away from those who do appreciate that perspective is something that is way above my pay grade as far as the psychology of it all goes. |
Pretty good piano player. Needs a better drummer; way too heavy handed and plodding for the way she’s playing the tune. Almost ruins it for her. The bass player keeps pretty good time, but the soloing is a good example of why some people hate bass solos. She should move to NYC 😊 |
**** Black folks, the Most American of all people in this country.****
And there you have it. Explains everything.
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Oh, I know exactly where he’s coming from. I wish I didn’t; I hate to witness willful ignorance. |
**** Can any one tell me how swing sounds like "Bop"? **** Sure. However, I think a better question is “how does Bop sound like Swing?”. A subtle, but important distinction. With respect, those are not particularly good examples to make the point. Prez playing a slow ballad and Bird playing a very fast tune clouds the issue. Perhaps they serve to skew the argument one way and not the other, but there are more “neutral” examples. Here is Prez and Bird both playing “Body and Soul” https://youtu.be/tBfqqbm50uwhttps://youtu.be/prbqc3C6968Here is an even better comparison to your question. Prez and then Bird playing an up tempo Blues: https://youtu.be/jeHkeoYNGgIhttps://youtu.be/5pVxWdnInWYHow do they sound alike? Let’s put aside the obvious. Same instrumentation; although Prez is on tenor and Bird is on alto. Now, the less obvious: Both tunes use the exact same “form”, the 12 measure Blues form. Prez plays it in a Swing style and Bird in a Bebop style. The even less obvious: In keeping with the classic differences between the two styles, and following all that we know (should know) about the general trends (evolution) in Jazz, Bird’s improvisation is more adventurous in that he plays faster and much more “outside” the very simple harmony of the Blues form while Prez is a lot more conservative staying closer to home. Bird uses more and faster ornamentation and deviates much more from the melody of the tune. He also plays with a more aggressive tone. All hallmarks of Bebop. Many would say they are also hallmarks of the way society in general was moving: emphasis on faster and deviation from norms; but still within the same framework (form). To illustrate the evolution from one style to the next even more let’s go backwards in time. Here is Louis Armstrong playing a Blues form; exact same 12 measure Blues form. He plays more simply and “inside” than even Prez. Also notice how from Louis to Prez to Bird there was a lineage in their respective swing feels; from a more square “swingy” feel to Bird’s more fluid swing. Here’s a fascinating recording. “Cherokee” with Bird on tenor (!). Who does he sound a lot like? You guessed it, Prez. https://youtu.be/60z6fRjjYPoIt’s all a continuum of influences from the past and, in the case of the greats, their own creativity moving the music to a new place. It is still going on today. We of an older generation, or those of us “old at heart” may not like the result; but, just look around at society today. It all sense to me. |
Re Wynton and the supposed “Americanization” of Jazz. First, Jazz needs no “Americanization”. The melting pot concept goes to the very core of what America is about. No surprise, but that is the precise opposite of what his message is. He has far more integrity than some here are giving him. His message is, in fact, about acknowledging the greatness of the Afro-American contribution to the music; not to dilute it. Besides, as I said before, his ideas are nothing new. Musicians and musicologists have been pointing these things out for decades. Of course, there is always the proof of demonstrable examples of what has been talked about for anyone who is willing to see it and not let their cynicism and ego cloud their vision (ears).
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Worth getting if only for the players on it (Morgan). Some pretty good reaction, but I’m not aware of “everyone going gaga over it” at all. For whatever it may be worth to anyone, my post on a recent and different thread about this release: Always a treat to find new material by a great artist. However, there’s usually a reason that release of a recording is held back. I know it’s in vogue to slam critics, but I think Fremer’s review nails it. It’s hard to find an Art Blakey recordings that is not at least enjoyable to listen to, but compared to the classics this one, while still enjoyable, doesn’t rise to the same level of band cohesion and level of swing. The material was unfamiliar to the players and it sounds like it. As Fremer points out, four of the tunes were recorded live just a few weeks later for the “At The Jazz Corner Of The World” release and the band (same lineup) sounds more energetic and precise. On the title tune of the earlier studio version we hear a rarity, Morgan ‘fracks” (misses) a note early on in the reading of the “head”; a common result of unfamiliarity with the material. https://youtu.be/RQcfoXbGtq8A few weeks later: https://youtu.be/S5GONJ_ozTc |
Abbey Lincoln. Great record. Getz sounds fabulous; beautiful story telling. “Bird Alone” is a gem. I posted this record a couple of times previously and glad to hear it again. A little factoid: Max Roach and Abbey are husband and wife. This followed one of the tracks on the Tube. Some might say it’s very “New Yorkish” 🤔. IOW, hip as hell. Herbie is a genius. https://youtu.be/e5cgqWnjqfEhttps://youtu.be/a3CZHr5uiNM |
**** I though this was the new Art Blakey album ****
It is, pjw.
Don’t be a stranger. |
Not playing, O-10. Read what I said again and don’t read into it. Easy. |
O-10, still not playing, but since it is the decent to do I will try and answer your question. For the record, the reason that I said “I am not playing” is that you questioned my motivation for making the comment about live/studio and, as in the past, that signaled to me that yet another silly argument was around the corner. Not a very nice thing to do and I hope my concern is unfounded. I will answer your question, but if there cannot be civility and respect, this will be my last comment on the matter. If there is, I would be glad to expound and answer any additional questions. So, why did I make the comment about “studio/live”?
Simple, because it is absolutely true. It is absolutely true that a live performance is not always better than a studio performance; especially when we are talking about a singer that we both agree does not have a stellar instrument. A singer without a great instrument is much more prone to have vocal problems. In a studio, a singer (or instrumentalist) can do multiple takes of a performance and choose the best one for the record. In a live setting, as I tell my wife all the time, “you can’t go back and White (it) Out” (a mistake or flaw). Additionally, you would be amazed at what a tiny bit of added reverb in the studio mix can do to enhance the sound of a singer’s voice, or even mask intonation problems. Those are facts.
Now, it is also true that ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL (singer’s voice being in equally good shape, band being equally up to snuff, etc.) the live performance is usually better. It is also true that for a given listener a live performance may always be “better” due to being present to witness a favorite artist perform, the charm of being in a club with like minded fans, etc. Those things don’t have anything to do with the quality of the performance in objective terms. I suppose that it is also possible that you have been very lucky and have never attended an inferior live performance. Good for you. I have been to many live performances that were not as good as some of the recorded work of the same material by the same artist.
Another interesting thing to consider is that many artists (or bands) make a point of not recording new repertoire before they “take it on the road”; IOW, preform it live (essentially, rehearse it in front of an audience) before putting it down on tape. This is the opposite of what was done with the Blakey “Coolin’ It” material and why the release was held back (not “lost“, to be “discovered” later) and why, in this case, the live versions of the same material sound better than the studio versions. For the studio versions (“Coolin’ It”) the band had not seen the material before. When they recorded the material weeks later they had had a chance to play it several times before committing it to tape.
Anyway, I would prefer to focus on the fact that we agree on Abbey Lincoln as an artist. |
In my last post I mistakenly referred to the title of the “new” Blakey recording as “Coolin’ It”. The correct title is “Just Coolin’”. The title tune “Just Coolin” also appears on “At The Jazz Corner of the World”, a double album of live performances recorded a few weeks later. This live double album includes three or four additional tunes that were recorded earlier for the “Just Coolin” studio release which was not released until recently.
Btw, if shopping for “At the Jazz Corner of the World”, don’t confuse it with “Meet Me at the Jazz Corner of the World”, a different live double album recorded a couple of years later with a different lineup. |
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