Jazz for aficionados

That’s right.  Besides the moderators, only the poster can delete his/her post up to a half hour or so after posting.  After that, only the moderators can.  As Rok says, they do get “help” by way of a “complaint” by someone who doesn’t like the post; or is simply being a jerk.  My opinion, but I suspect that this thread has gotten and will continue to get “special attention” given the recent “incident”.  

Per pjw’s comments re Herbie Hancock. Whatever one may think of electronic music, fusion, funk, whatever one wants to call it, when the playing is on such a high level it doesn’t much matter what one calls it. Purists will say that this record is not on the same level as some of his acoustic offerings. I disagree. In its way, this record is a masterpiece.

https://youtu.be/3m3qOD-hhrQ

pjw, I think Tommy Flanagan was a great player and I love his playing. There is a certain elegance to his playing and a relaxed time feel. Even the tone he gets has an elegant quality to it; not very percussive.

https://youtu.be/ONpG6dtiqzE

I really enjoyed that Kenny Dorham clip. Had not heard that before. Thanks!

My take on Flanagan on that recording is that he sounds very good. He’s a great player and he sounds particularly good on the introduction with its loose feel. He seems comfortable with the tune and its comfortable harmonic progression. He sounds a little subdued in attitude compared to Al Heath’s fiery playing and Henderson’s amazing solo. I found it very interesting how the vibe of the tune changed dramatically at the point that he soloed. They dropped the intensity pretty dramatically. Almost as if the band was accommodating him and the way he likes to play. Nice contrast even if at times I wished he were a little more rhythmic and incisive with his comping behind the soloists.

Here he is as sideman with Thad Jones, one of my very favorite Jazz composers and great trumpet player, on a favorite record. IMO, this is the kind of music and setting that Flanagan sounds best in; relaxed and swinging. Check out Billy Mitchell’s tenor on this. Talk about underrated players! Also, one of Schubert’s favorite drummers and the great Kenny Burrell.

https://youtu.be/dKQaV22GZhg

It should be noted that 23 years after recording Giant Steps with Coltrane and being caught off guard by the complexity of the tune, he recorded the tune on one of his solo records, It is obvious that he worked on the tune over the years. I like his rendition and he navigates the brutally difficult harmonic changes very well, but still without the fire that Coltrane brought to the tune.

https://youtu.be/wkXerGtKtKM

Yes, great links. That live Johnny Griffin Clip is wonderful.

Thanks for your thoughts and great clips, pjw. I agree with all you wrote. Hancock is a genius. I don’t think I have heard anything by him that I have not liked; acoustic or electronic.

And, thanks for your thoughts also, mary_jo. I must say that I got a very different sense of what you were trying to say from your first post on the subject. I appreciate what you are saying; I’m just not sure that such a strong distinction is justified nor accurate. And, I wouldn’t even call the “magic” (emotional reaction) necessarily that “different” in kind.

**** . I would NOT underestimate the power of rose glasses in art in particular, you know, ’cause that is what moves the fan (admirer). And having fan who is moved is what all is about, right? ****


I think we have different views here. I agree, the power of rose colored glasses is very real, but it’s not always a good thing, IMO. Sometimes, factors other than just the music influence a listener’s reaction to it. Having known a performer personally, or having heard a song that one associates with a memorable life experience, or even liking a particular instrument more than another influences the level of “magic” that one experiences from a performance. Very normal, but that is the rose colored glasses effect.

Most serious artists not only would prefer that their art NOT be viewed through rose colored glasses, they don’t feel that having fans is “what it is all about”. They would prefer to be true to their vision of the art and if fans want to come along for the ride that’s great. Of course, some are more compromising than others and all of them have to eat.

mary_jo, we seem to be going round in circles to a degree. Too much is being made of the distinction between being “inside” and “outside” the world of the creators. We are all creators in one fashion or another. Obviously, not all are creators in the same endeavor, but creators nonetheless and many of the same principles apply to all. Yes, you did state that your comment had to do with film creators, but it was in response to the topic of music creators. Again, many of the same same basic principles apply; Schubert’s excellent point not withstanding.

I have known “non-creators” who were as musically astute and insightful of the process of creation as many creators themselves. That is not where the distinction should me made. I think the problem when trying to discuss these things goes to something I tried to describe early in the thread. Let’s first back up for a moment to what the main point of all this is (was); the backdrop. This discussion began around the issue of whether or not there is a “best” in Jazz. I will use some of your terminology:

There is a very normal tendency on the part of those “outside” the world of the (music) “creators” to over romanticize the process of “creating”; just as there is a tendency to over romanticize our involvement as consumers of the creations (aficionados). The rose colored glasses effect. All very common and normal. We build affinities and preferences for certain artists and styles of music, in part, for reasons that have little to do with the ultimate value of the music itself. This leads to all sorts of dichotomies and contradictions when discussing the topic. The contradictions may fit our own personal “emotional agenda”, but they are contradictions nonetheless. The perfect example of this contradiction is to claim that we don’t compare artists. Yet, the term “best” is used freely. It sounds good to claim no comparison, romantic; and, sure, we can suspend direct comparison while actually listening to the music, but to have a “best” or even a “favorite” means, almost by definition, that we are comparing.

Still, some want to keep the feelings about the creations “above the fray” of any kind of judgment as if there were something wrong with judging and establishing personal boundaries for what we like or don’t like. Nothing wrong with that as long as we can honestly say that we keep an open mind to the reasons why we may be reacting the way we are; some of which are simply our own biases and nothing more and no reflection of the ultimate value of the creation.

Anyway, thanks for your thoughts. Enough philosophizing about all this.

Happy New Year!

Killer Lee Morgan!  Thanks for the reboot.

Thanks for the correction, Mary_jo. I didn’t know that. Makes no sense to me to be able to remove it, but not edit.  Well, I guess it does......in a way.  All seems kind of silly.

More favorite Freddie Hubbard:

(Shorter, McCoy, Art Davis, Elvin Jones):

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0q2VleZJVElZiXuwHka3uCm94qHZsmaA

(Shorter, Herbie, Carter, Elvin):

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0q2VleZJVEnx5kQDEe7kzLdlJ5PFWfrG

I love Freddie Hubbard and I think that is an apt comparison to Fisher.  Because of the recent focus on Herbie Hancock I was going to post this record.  Amazing debut recording from Herbie with some stellar playing by Freddie Hubbard: 

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLA02D653F26832E7C

One of my favorite trumpet solos on record.  Simple (mostly) and a model of great thematic development:

https://youtu.be/I777BcgQL9o

pjw, I like “Red Clay”. I have always had mixed feelings about most (not all) CTI recordings. Red Clay is one that I like a lot ....with some relatively minor reservations. You asked for my take:

It stays closer to the vibe of the classic hard bop recordings with just a kind of “peek” into the over produced, not quite straight-ahead Jazz, not quite Funk, not quite Soul vibe of some other CTI’s. Something that gives them, for me, a somewhat “lite” character.
Freddie sounds great. One of my reservations, and one of the reasons that I like early Freddie so much is that while he was by then (Red Clay) a much more fully formed stylist, at the same time he was starting to show something that has often been a little annoying for me me from that point forward in his career. Lots of Freddieisms on that record. Little pet licks and trumpetistic (?) inflections that he would use in just about every solo; a signature sound, but comes across as a little cliched at times. And, a kind of relentless quality; always on fire. Some would would say I’m nitpicking, but I usually enjoy pre-CTI Freddie best. Lastly, Joe Henderson sounds amazing as always, but he shouldn’t be playing the flute; doesn’t sound very good. And, even though he can do no wrong in my book, Herbie is not entirely convincing playing organ.

O-10, you will always be top dog.

Happy New Year!  

I like that record a lot. Yes, different, but still Horace Silver all the way. Very melodic with Silver’s typically funky grooves. Different for a couple of important reasons.

David Friedman on vibes. Different sound for Silver. Not just because of the sound of vibes, but also the way Friedman improvises. Another important reason that it is different and is not shown by that clip is consistent with the choice of Friedman for the record: Three of the cuts on the record feature the Brecker Brothers who played in a very different style from most of the horn players in Silver’s bands up until then. Two great players whose styles were Coltrane influenced and informed by their experiences as fusion players and in Pop settings; also a departure from horn players in Silver’s bands until then.

https://youtu.be/3XS79mmcs_0

https://youtu.be/yttc-i_vA8I

Uberwaltz

👍

Welcome, uberwaltz! First, don’t worry too much about what we think. There has been a lot of disagreement and arguing on this thread over what is and what is not Jazz. Consider what some of the greatest Jazz artists to ever play the music have said and continue to say:

”There are only two kinds of music, good and bad”

Beyond that, does the title really matter that much?

The music of all the Fusion/Crossover artists that you list has, at least, a strong Jazz component in it. Some of them (especially Clarke, Yellowjackets, Grusin and Jordan) have been part of projects (their own and others’) which are Jazz by any measure. Besides the above quote, I would offer another truism that is very important to the musicians themselves. That is, the idea that one can’t really play “modern” without first understanding what came before it. In a way, and to an important degree, the same goes for listeners.

Post some favorite music!

————————————————

Jazz quiz for all: Besides being Jazz, what do the following tunes all have in common? (Hint: uber)

https://youtu.be/-488UORrfJ0

https://youtu.be/5Wd--YgSCfA

https://youtu.be/vofbnkQcW_Q

**** I could never take Toots and Zoot seriously as Jazz musicians. ****

I hope you refer to their nicknames only. If so, I know what you mean. Not nearly as serious sounding as Fathead, Dizzy, Cleanhead, Jug, Lockjaw, Scoops: or, of course, the best nickname of all, Frog (Ben Webster) 😄

Loved the Kevin Hays Violeta, acman3. Killer. Thanks for that.

Killer, different bag:

https://youtu.be/v4LUzZYLNN4

Beautiful! Not much Barrueco can’t play, indeed. To be fair, I’m not crazy about some of the other cuts on this record (I suspect I know what you would say) but he nails “Michelle”:

https://youtu.be/iXICu7fbTnA

Pryso, great drummer! Nice clip. Boy does that bring back memories. Title tune from his debut studio recording. Thanks!

Billy Cobham is dear to me because, aside from being a great drummer, this record introduced me to the great Michael Brecker who recorded with him. I was still in HS and the jazz band director brought this to class to play for the saxophone players in the band. He said “check this guy out!”. Brecker was still just an up and coming young session player then:

https://youtu.be/l-b_h8i9eWU

I’ll take Bach, Brahms or Schubert anytime as well.  Still, time and a place for all.  Well, not all.....

Those people who should know don’t know.  A myth that has been debunked many times.  The myth started because they did, in fact, not start writing their own material until they started recording. Besides, wouldn’t at least some of the mystery writers have revealed themselves after all these years?

Rach “Vespers”.  I don’t think glorious is an overstatement.  No doubt the human voice is the greatest instrument.  Beautiful singing and insight into the music.   Gorgeous solo alto and remarkable resonance from the bass for a “from the bottom up” balance in the harmonies that is not heard too often.  Thanks.

I agree with the sentiment of your review of the Camille Thurman recording, Rok; even if I would describe what I hear differently. I don’t feel there is anything wrong with Thurman’s place in the recording. For me, the reason she doesn’t sound up front is that her playing is not commanding. Very talented, but she sounds like an immature player to me. Uses too many cliches with even a nod to Michael Brecker’s funk sound in one spot 😱. I find her scatsinging to be more compelling than her playing.  She can scat like only a horn player can and actually makes all the harmonic changes of a tune and doesn’t simply “generalize” them like most singers do. Still, she sounds kinda like Ella, just not as good; doesn’t have her own sound yet. There are many young tenor players out there who are far more interesting and compelling. Can they also sing? Nope. There’s the charm.

The amazing power of DNA! and carrying on the musical blood line:

https://youtu.be/-SQNVQHCNcg

Great players all, great solos, new and typically catchy Silver tunes. So, why am I not convinced? Not sure. There is a nervous vibe to some of this; a little too earnest. The time is not quite settled; not always locked in especially on the up tempo tunes. I think the problem is between Silver and Lewis Nash who I usually like a lot. It happens. The chemistry isn’t always there. Maybe it’s me; I’ll listen again in the morning.

Glad you like the Beethoven.  Argerich is phenomenal.

Rok, I believe that there would be agreement among most arrangers that a minimum size for the designation “big band” is 5 saxophones, 3 trombones, 3 trumpets and 3 rhythm (piano, bass and drums). Anything much smaller than that (fewer horns) would make it what is usually referred to as “small big band”. This number of horns (11) gives arrangers enough “voices” for a fairly complete expression of most arranging techniques that are typically used in the genre. However, I would say that if there is a “standard” size as defined by the most common size of big band it would be 5 saxophones, 3 trombones, 4 (!) trumpets and 3 rhythm. As you point out that is what Wynton uses at JALC.

“17 piece big band” is a more generous or complete use of instrumental “voices” by the arranger and is a carry over from a time when band leaders could afford a larger ensemble in order to have a fuller and bigger sound. Typically, the trombone section gets one more (4) and guitar is added for a total of 17 players.  

**** I wonder what brought all this on? ****

If I had to guess? 1968. Makes complete sense. Whole lot going on in 1968 that inspired protest songs and other expressions of protest. Silver’s music has always had an upbeat and accessible vibe to it and it makes sense to me that he would want his music to not be a part of that. The other extreme at the time was the avante garde movement in Jazz which was all about protest.  I think our man Horace may have had some conservative leanings.

What I didn’t make clear is that a band leader/arranger can use some variation of the above which is why “standard” is a tricky designation.  Thad Jones added a French Horn, Kenton incorporated a section of melophoniums, Dizzy added a percussionist other than the drummer.....

Btw, Turrentine sounds fabulous. I would say, the perfect tenor player for these tunes. Something really right about Silver/Turrentine.  Love “Rain Dance”, one of my favorites on the record.  Interesting tune.

Great!  Btw, Paul, I sent you a pm.  Wondering if you got it. 

I have always liked Gary Bartz’ playing.  There’s a reason Miles chose him for one of his later bands.  Very soulful player.

For anyone old enough to have lived through the 70s.  Talk about music reflecting the times!

https://youtu.be/GGSXmt1KH9Y

Mhttps://youtu.be/qyJooHmRcdc

Check out the lineup!  Rising stars.

Heard this on the radio today. Made me think of that Camille Thurman recording and her impressive scat singing; but how much the simple delivery of the song was missing this:

https://youtu.be/VLGbsFs16HQ

Saw that one coming 😊

https://youtu.be/QCLqDOmMB3w

”Same purpose”

Verbal noise. So 70’s! Goes with the bell bottoms and platform shoes. Oh, yeah....and the ‘fro.

Uber, I totally get feeling the need to limit one’s involvement with the Internet.  It’s a struggle for me in some ways.  But, YouTube is unbelievable.  So much great stuff on there.  The best is not available anywhere else.  

Call me weird, but I find your suggestion mildly inappropriate.  

Alex, I like directness and lack of ambiguity. Btw, speaking of ambiguity, I am not sure what you found “ambiguous” about my comments in the “other” thread; comments that, from my perspective, should have remained there. I thought my comments were quite clear and unambiguous, even if you seem to have misunderstood them. Since you took it upon yourself to move that discussion including my comments and your reaction to them to this thread, a thread where I have made clear I don’t want to stray from the subject of music, I will keep my comments brief; or, at least more brief than they would be otherwise....maybe 😊

With respect, this is obviously a very sensitive subject for you. You seem intent on engaging in a debate about the topic since you offered no comment of your own to the “other” OP, but did challenge mine. Unfortunately, you made some assumptions that are not accurate and, in the process, missed some of the more nuanced aspects of the issue and of what I alluded to in my comments.

**** Suggesting that somehow people would have lesser moral values without such (religious) education is something that I could not agree less ****

I suggested nothing of the sort. The nuances:

We live in an age of the preponderance of social media and other aspects of “modern” culture which have demonstrably (arguably?) eroded some traditional societal values. As a parent I can attest to the fact that, not only do many parents, mostly out of convenience, surrender at least some of their parental responsibilities to the schools (“official”), the schools actively impose the “official” viewpoint on various topics and override the parent; ostensibly, for “the greater good”. From MY vantage point, one of the main and most damaging examples of this has been the (as I said in the “other” thread) “concerted effort to remove God and spirituality from education” (Btw, you continue to ignore the distinction between God/spirituality and religion). It is MY belief that, at least, some exposure to the role that belief in God or general appreciation of the role that spirituality can play in a person’s life is nothing but a positive for a young person being educated. Not to inculcate or convert to any one religion, but to help understand the role that these values play(ed) in the lives of some; in the case of this discussion, Bach. Personally, I don’t see how belief in a force greater than oneself and the kind of personal humility that comes with that can be anything but a positive. However, that’s just my viewpoint and I recognize that in an age when for many it’s all about “me” many would disagree.

Now, in the absence of strong positive parental examples as is case in sadly more and more modern families, if one then also removes the sense of accountability to some entity or belief outside of oneself it is not surprising to me that SOME might be lacking in the moral (to use your word) values that would stop someone contemplating vandalizing and disrespecting an important symbol (the church in question) of all of the above.

THAT was my point. No more, no less. Of course, a religious upbringing or education is not necessary for someone to be a moral person and the absence of those does not make one immoral. However, there is no question in my mind that SOME need the help and guidance from one source or another; especially in their developmental years. When none is forthcoming we see the negative results. In the context of the “other” OP, that was my premise.

I hope this makes my “other” comments less ambiguous.

Regards.

Exactly!

The irony of this supposed disagreement is that I completely agree with Schubert’s comments. He is exactly right. However, respectfully, I am left with the feeling of “so what?”. This does not in any way change the fact that I know of many for whom God and spirituality has been their pathway to morality. If anyone thinks that this is not so, or that there is no value in this, then there really is disagreement. What is getting lost here is that I was not advocating for one approach in “official education” vs another since clearly both bring their own problems. I am describing a symptom of one approach as I see it. Btw, I don’t see where it has been suggested that anyone would have an “exclusive right to spirituality”. Simply opening the door, or more accurately keeping the door open, to it seems to me to be far less exclusive than actively shutting the door to it; and there lies the problem.

Thurman:

I think she needs more than a little time. Always good to see a young artist reaching for the stars and to see a lot of support ($) from the powers that be. And she sure is getting the support....lots of it....and for a variety of reasons......🤔

Talented for sure, but I hear nothing original. A little of Ella here, a little of Sarah there. Actually much more than a little....too much. Where is Camille? Her saxophone playing, by the standards of current young players (never mind the proven greats), is not that great. The phrasing sounds rushed and there are too many questionable note choices. Like her singing it often sounds scripted and preplanned. Even so, singer more than player. 

I hope I’m wrong.

Very interesting, Grammy Award winning documentary on the life and musical rise of Artie Shaw. Some great vintage footage including the hiring a young Billie Holiday; and NYC during the big band era.

https://youtu.be/oizFKxjqs7Q

I posted this singer a while back. Very talented and original voice who writes most of her material; and very interesting material at that. Great voice and when I listen to her I don’t find myself thinking: “oh, that sounds like Ella, or Sarah, or...”.

https://youtu.be/fkZUfc2L8iU

https://youtu.be/5nurWf7MFT0

https://youtu.be/QKYDnrKXAH0

No tenor saxophone, but besides writing her own material she paints her own cover art. Does that count?

https://youtu.be/MiSE654IEd4

https://youtu.be/hrUiQa-olMI

Yes,  very enjoyable.  Thanks for that, pjw.

I am sorry to have to report another passing of a great musician.  Claudio Roditi, one my favorite trumpet players passed two days ago.  Fabulous player who brought the influence of his Brazilian heritage to a modern Jazz style.  

https://youtu.be/I-FmBbR1iMU

https://youtu.be/g-8pq26ZTEc

https://youtu.be/ARANUrDEEII

 Lundy was an original more than 32 years ago (I went to school with her). I just don’t hear it in Thurman. I guess my point is to ask why Thurman is getting all the attention and backing at this early point in her career. I would have bought (and did)buy a Lundy record 32 years ago. I see (hear) no reason to do so this time other than simple support of an aspiring singer. Certainly not a bad thing.

Lundy singing standards. Still sounds like no one else.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lYbaMUfX92G1jhQAMm9hCD3KWSGKPiBvE

**** The songs Lundy sings tend to sound a little too ’New York-ish’ for my taste.****

“New York-ish“? Nah. That’s your preference for an older sensibility. Your taste. Nothing to do with NY. She’s from the South. Now, in a way you hit the nail on the head. Lundy is an original. What Thurman does has been done a thousand times before; only much better. I’m left with the feeling “what’s the point? who cares?”.

**** Johnny Hodges:

The most beautiful tone. ****

I generally don’t like “mosts” or “bests”; but in this case it’s hard to argue.  Awesome tone.  And those glissandos (slides)!!  No one has done it like that. 

https://youtu.be/3l6Ny7pOA5c

https://youtu.be/hGZDRQUSMmE

pjw, be glad to.  Give me a day or so; very busy time.

It’s coming, pjw.  The KOB comment required practically no thought at all; a good thing.  For now, I like Coleman very much.