Thanks for that, Schubert. Beautiful playing all around on one of my favorite Barber works. Excellent! Gorgeous tone from Meyers. Right back at you with another favorite Barber: https://youtu.be/zCf7ClLwB7AAs I’m sure you know this is generally considered to be (for whatever that is worth) “the” recording of the concerto. Interesting contrast to the Meyers/Slovenia live performance. Much more that could be said about that contrast than is probably appropriate on a Jazz thread; but, in short, an arguably more “American” interpretation: https://youtu.be/_zHSyDP34IM |
Pjw, you won’t be disappointed with that Betty Carter record. Highly recommended! I posted a few from it a while back. Rok, check out Allen, Holland and DeJohnette on this: https://youtu.be/qgdn9DIdLkE |
I prefer no title as long as the link itself is clear as to who the artist(s) and title are. Makes it all a bit more interesting for me; especially if it is preceded by a bit of info to pique curiosity. No big deal either way. https://youtu.be/81_g4FZldl4 |
Awsome Cherokee. How anyone can think that Jazz at the very highest level stopped happening after the 60s is beyond me. Thanks for that. Harland! |
Re “West Coast Jazz”: Personally, I don’t like the term. It is misused too often, is too broad a term and is not descriptive enough. Jazz in the West Coast has always represented different styles; some of which are associated with the East Coast. What is usually meant when West Coast Jazz is cited is “Cool Jazz”. I prefer this term for its descriptive quality and how it does a better job differentiating it from Bebop/Hardbop which are Jazz styles more commonly associated with the East Coast. Adding to the confusion is that the West Coast has always had a bebop/hardbop scene that, while not nearly as extensive as the bebop scene of the East Coast, was and is an important part of the overall West Coast Jazz scene and Jazz in general. The perfect example of this is Clifford Brown; a musician often associated with the West Coast, but who was a bebopper through and through. There were many others. There were also others who played in styles that melded the two stereotypical styles, each to varying degrees, associated with the two coasts. Pjw’s fantastic Stan Getz clips (a favorite record) are a good example of this. Undoubtedly a bebopper as far as harmonic concept, but a tenor player who played with the type of softer edged and lyrical tone usually associated with Cool Jazz. If a general distinction must be made, I think Rok’s comment about West Coast Jazz, while arguably somewhat subjective and over simplified, is actually appropriate: **** Too smooth, no grit / bite. **** In other words, “cool”; as distinguished from the harder edged, grittier and generally more aggressive quality of Bebop which was and is more prevalent in the East Coast. In fact, before the overly broad term “West Coast Jazz” was first (mis)used, the two descriptive terms used to differentiate the two broad styles were “Cool Jazz” and “Hot Jazz”. From a historical/evolutionary perspective, a couple of interesting things not highlighted so far that were instrumental 😉 in the shaping of Jazz in the West Coast and Jazz in general: Rok is correct that NYC (East Coast) is the creative center of the Jazz scene. However, this wasn’t always the case. In fact, it was the West Coast that was the center of the Jazz scene early in the general evolution of the music. The introduction of regular train service from New Orleans to California in the early 20th century allowed many early New Orleans Jazz musicians to travel to California for the first time. This was an important part of the beginning of the new style of music (Hot Jazz) that would take the country by storm. Another important factor in all this was the growth of Hollywood and the entertainment industry in general in LA. Many of the Jazz musicians in LA would find lucrative employment in the Hollywood film and radio studios. One of the distinguishing characteristics of “Cool” (“West Coast Jazz”) is the emphasis on the composition and the arrangements; often very interesting and intricate. This is a direct offshoot of the music that these musicians were playing in the Hollywood studios; music that was, by definition and requirement, more musically “scripted” with comparatively less emphasis on solo improvisation and more emphasis on the compositional aspects of the music. Importantly, the demands on musicians playing a film or radio recording session are usually very different from those for playing in a club. The demands in a studio are for a more controlled, more subdued and less aggressive tone with a high degree of precision. In other words, “cool”. All this will work its way into the general playing styles of musicians whether they are in the studio or the after work late night jam session. Of course, the already mentioned generally more laid back California culture added to all this. Those pesky influences again....and a Jazz style is born. https://youtu.be/eTfEfV917U0(Btw, removed and reposted because the system would not let me edit the previous post) |
I knew that; so was mine “on purpose” 😊 |
pryso, your point is well taken. However, my take is that anyone who likes and knows what Cool Jazz is would not be confused and anyone who likes Smooth Jazz deserves to be confused 😊....and probably wouldn’t like Cool Jazz anyway. Btw, Miles himself chose to call the album NOT “Birth Of West Coast Jazz”, but “Birth Of The Cool” instead. pjw, your Lou Donaldson story about Coltrane reminded me of this. I have posted or previously and I hope no one is offended for the obvious reason: https://youtu.be/1Zn-P0ZH3_M |
**** You don’t seem like a fan of him as I don’t recall you commenting on his ability as an artist whether good or bad. To me, no reply one way or the other, is a polite way of letting someone know its not your cup of tea. ****
pjw, I appreciate your passion, but be careful with your assumptions as you are mistaken with this one, as far as concerns me, anyway. I like Lou Donaldson very much. If you must know, besides simply making the choice to use one’s usually limited time to comment/post in a way that I (!) feel makes the most productive and hopefully interesting contribution to the thread, the reason that I sometimes don’t comment on an artist is that the artist has been discussed previously; sometimes, several times previously. I suspect that I am not the only one here that feels the same way. You are relatively new to the thread and are probably not aware of all the instances of this. In fact, if I am not mistaken, I was the first to post Sweet Lou here. Another great example of this is the recent commentary on Grant Green.... discussed many, many times; to the point of arguments, unfortunately.
Now, please don’t misunderstand. I am, IN NO WAY, suggesting that that there is ANYTHING wrong with revisiting any one artist; even may times over. God knows, some of these great players deserve even more attention and commentary. Personally, however, I SOMETIMES attempt to comment in a way that is hopefully different. Let’s just say....in the spirit of Jazz 😎. Obviously, I don’t always succeed.
Having said all that, of course SOMETIMES one chooses to as grandma would always say.....”if you don’t have anything positive to say, don’t say anything at all”. So, if you ever have want to know my feelings about an artist that I haven’t expressed an opinion on one way or another feel free to ask me directly and I would be glad to share my thoughts.
Btw, can I assume you don’t like Paul Desmond? 😉
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Hah! No title from Alex. Nicely done 😄
Great clip. |
O-10, my sons and I refer to my wife (their mother) as “No.1 elf”. She loves Christmas. The house gets decorated with (tasteful) Christmas decorations in and out every year, and I must say that in spite of my mildly intolerant bemusement at all the commotion I have grown to appreciate her efforts immensely. A truly wonderful time of year that doesn’t necessarily have to be colored by others’ commercialism or others’ cynicism about it all. Keep gazing at that tree if that is what it takes to get in the spirit. I will say, however, that from my very limited vantage point you have a great deal to help you get in the spirit. Most importantly, you beat cancer! Doesn’t get much more important and positive than that. Not as important, but certainly important to you, your Jazz thread is thriving. I wish you much Christmas cheer. The Stitt/Parker connection, or lack thereof, that you mention is one of my favorite stories in Jazz. I have commented on it a couple of times previously and the story goes that when Bird played a road gig in Stitt’s hometown, to their mutual amazement they found that their respective styles were remarkably similar. This, in spite of the fact that Stitt had never heard Bird play; not even on recordings. Fascinating. Much is correctly made of the issue of “influence” of players on one another as concerns the evolution of Jazz, but this goes to what I like to call the inevitability of evolution in Jazz. Many creative artists are always pushing the envelope and this evolution seems to take on a life of its own. Some artists are just like some listeners. Some resist the movement of the art toward something new and different and others embrace it and go with it. To a significant degree the music itself and where it is at any moment dictates where it goes next. Schubert, fabulous “Cherokee”. One of my favorite Stitt records. I completely understand your reaction to Shadow Wilson. Wonderful drummer. Here’s more Shadow, except on “Off Minor” and “Epistrophy” on which Art Blakey plays drums. Fascinating contrast between the two drumming styles. I know it is considered heresy to say anything remotely negative about Blakey, but this contrast is a great example of why, while I acknowledge his greatness and importance, he is not always my favorite drummer. Compared to Shadow, he sounds a little heavy handed. I prefer Shadow’s more lithe and lighter approach. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0q2VleZJVEk3Tmv67HXOebr_CzZwuARjBtw, methinks you are way too modest in you assessment of your ability to assess what’s what in Jazz. You are a very musically astute listener, IMO. |
O-10, while I don’t feel entirely comfortable laying claim to the “astute” part of your question, I can offer an opinion.
I think it would be difficult to make an argument against “Moanin’” being THE definitive Art Blakey Jazz Messengers recording. I think it is a pretty safe bet that if surveyed a majority would agree. Great band! Great record! And, I have a strong suspicion that you would agree 😉. Having said that, I think the band was even better when Wayne Shorter replaced Benny Golson. Not that there was anything amiss in Benny Golson’s playing; quite the contrary. Fantastic player and fantastic composer which is one of the main reasons that “Moanin’” was so great. After Golson, the band remained the same except for the tenor slot. Shorter was (is) a more modern improviser and, for me, a more interesting improviser. I think that made the band more interesting and more forward looking. With a couple of temporary changes theband would remain essentially the same for about half a dozen records with “Night In Tunisia” being a favorite. My two cents.
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**** fro, you are enterin’ my space... **** 😊 Isn’t it interesting how the subconscious works? I was the first to post “Desmond Blue” quite a while back and at least once more since. One of my desert island records. Is it possible.....? Could be. https://youtu.be/i1i1X51un-IBtw, the image of Woody Allen having an orgasm is a bit much to contemplate 😬 |
“Take Five”: I must say, I’m with Schubert on this one. One of those tunes that is very difficult to cover in a way that makes as strong a statement as the original. I don’t dislike the Puente “version”. It’s exciting, but it is “Take Five” in name only, imo. The main musical signature of the tune “Take Five” is that it is in five; five beats to the measure. That is what gives the tune its quirky rhythmic feel. Puente does the tune in 4! Completely different rhythmic feel. Kind of strange actually, to hear the familiar melody superimposed over a different rhythm. https://youtu.be/7i6vcmXdJMMAll kidding aside, hard to top, or even equal this one: https://youtu.be/vmDDOFXSgAsHere’s a different take on “Take Five”: https://youtu.be/hhq7fSrXn0c |
Nice groove on the “Zemeo” clip, O-10. Reminded me of this (posted a while back). One of my favorite fusion bands: https://youtu.be/sF9kW-8NPqs |
Hadn’t listened to it, Schubert. I guess you hadn’t read my comment to pjw about “no comments” 😊. My take: Not a bad player. While no Desmond “dry martini” tone and style, he has a nice sound and does a good job of playing in five which is the “stealth” difficulty of playing the tune. The difficulty is that it feels very unnatural to most players to play, let alone improvise, in five. Much more comfortable to play in the much more common 1,2,3,4/1,2,3,4 etc. type of rhythm. Imagine having to march instead of 1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2 etc., this way: 1,2,1,2,3,1,2,1,2,3 etc. He plays to Dave Brubeck and his rhythm section as they themselves recorded the tune. The backing track that he plays to is Dave Brubeck’s actual recording minus Paul Desmond’s saxophone which was electronically edited out. Then he plays EXACTLY what Desmond plays including Desmond’s solo, note for note. Then, after he plays Desmond’s solo he improvises his own solo over Morello’s recorded drum solo and that is when things get a little murky. Not bad and as much as he tries to stay in the style of Desmond he can’t help let some Smooth Jazzisms creep into his solo. So, in short, I’m left with the feeling of “what’s the point?” An example of a promising young player honing his playing. Interesting comparison: “Take Five” with Joe Morello: https://youtu.be/tT9Eh8wNMkw“Take Five” no Morello; Alan Dawson on drums: https://youtu.be/8V9VSxn2F9M |
In my house one has no choice. If I don’t, it’s the couch for me. Kidding.... a little. I do love this time of year. |
It’s working! Must be one beautiful tree you got. |
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Birelli Lagrene fan here. Monster player who can play in any style. I got to know his playing from one of his electric fusion recordings. A Django disciple he is a fabulous “Gypsy guitar” player as well as a a great straight ahead player. I liked that “Isn’t She Lovely” clip, Schubert. Very nice tenor player who, like most tenor players, of that generation owes a whole lot to the great Michael Brecker. https://youtu.be/2yfQN8-tVlQ |
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Lest I be accused of “double standard”, I will only say that the drummer in Thomson Maksimir’s band is a perfect example of why some people hate drum solos. Yikes! Speaking of drum solos and art that makes political statements. A master at making drums speak. The singer and rest of the band are no slouches either 😉: https://youtu.be/YTeacoeAm9o |
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I have mentioned more than once that I won’t comment here on topics that are not related to music. I offer these thoughts in the spirit of the Holidays. Perhaps it is simply that I haven’t had my coffee yet.
I would say that the biggest mistake most humans make is to not understand, or be willing to accept, that progress is not linear. Huge advances and progress, technological and otherwise, are sometimes accompanied by their own problems that take time to, not only reveal themselves, but to be solved themselves. Unfortunately, sometimes these collateral problems don’t get solved at all. However, when one looks at the zig-zag (up and down) that is the line that one might see on an imaginary historical “progress chart” one can clearly see that it heads up, not down; and has been heading up for quite a while.
Possibly the second biggest mistake humans make is to believe that there is virtue or moral superiority in seeing only the negatives and the things that still need improvement without acknowledging the very real progress that has been made through history and into the present. There is no virtue in being mired in negativity. From infant mortality rates to life expectancy. Eradication of disease. Literacy rates. Work conditions for workers including child labor. GDP and extreme poverty rates in developing countries. Relative bloodiness and frequency of the sadly still existing wars. Voting rights. Race and gender equality. The list goes on and on. All have seen dramatic improvements over time and the evidence is there to see.
Why is it important to acknowledge the progress? Because as with all things the best way toward improvement and further progress is to have an honest and clear view of what one is dealing with and not only the pieces of it that one wants to see; or is predisposed to see. To acknowledge the positives (progress) does, in no way, mean that one has to be blind to the negatives and the progress that still needs to be made or their urgency. Only when one has a comprehensive view of a problem can one make the best choices moving forward.
Merry Christmas to all and a very Happy New Year!
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Thank you, 0-10. Luckily, I won’t be having men in trench coats knocking on my door to take me away for expressing my views. I call that progress. Non-linear, remember?
Happiness is what one makes it. Merry Christmas, O-10!
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**** I have Black Trench Coat and Black Helicopter, will travel. ****
I have twice extended an invitation; to no avail. Plenty of room on my rooftop. Besides, I know you would be the last to do such a thing 😃
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Boston Pops, “Twelve Days of Christmas” :
I would agree. Brilliant! Brilliantly executed and because it brilliantly taps into an aspect of the personality of Christmas that I think gets lots on some. Joyous time that doesn’t have to only be serious because of the seriousness of its most important meaning. The orchestra and chorus sound fantastic. Thanks for that. |
It is not the listener’s responsibility to worry about protecting the artist that way, IMO. Be free to not like an artist or have mixed feelings; but, that is different than “judging”. From your description it’s pretty obvious to me that she pushed some buttons for you. For an honest performer, that is getting about 3/4 of the way to the goal. Worrying about whether listeners will “like” them is toward the bottom of their list. Why should she have more “softness”? She is tough as hell and can exude a very raw attitude with a little theatricality, I get what you might be feeling about her. For me, it’s a Janis Joplin like Rock and Roll sensibility. I know that for me that part of my reaction to her attitude is that I am a man and she is a woman. Women are not supposed to be so rough, right? On the other hand, I think most men, if honest, would say they find it sexy as heck.
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Love Beth Hart, mary_jo. Thanks for posting that KC Honors clip. I posted that clip a while back and so glad to hear it again. I like your description of her. She has a lot to say; no doubt due to things she has had to deal with including years of drug addiction. She can be sexy as heck. That solo by Jeff Beck kills. Speaking of having a lot to say, a great example of saying so much with the fewest words (notes).
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Re Brooklyn and chickens:
Know all about it; I live in Brooklyn. I am in no way suggesting that I know for a fact that there is a connection, but I am well aware of two factors that in my experience living here since 1983 may have contributed to the chicken phenomenon.
Brooklyn has become very gentrified over the last four decades or so. Its proximity to Manhattan has made it a very desirable place to live. The current joke is that people are moving back to Manhattan from Brooklyn since Brooklyn, because of gentrification, has become more expensive to live in than Manhattan. The large Latino and Caribbean population in Brooklyn meant that there was a not insignificant demand for live chickens; for traditional cooking and for Santeria rituals. There was also, until recently, a sizable underground cock fighting scene. All ethnic traditions of the Latino/Caribbean population. Live chickens featured mildly prominent in Brooklyn life.
My neighbor two houses over, successful corporate woman, has two pet chickens. Surprisingly beautiful birds. However, what this woman finds as far as companionship or anything else that pets typically offer is a mystery to me. A pet capable of minimal interaction with humans and which crap when and wherever that feel like it is not my idea of pet. She walks them on a leash. Kid you not.
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This is one of those records that feels like all the stars aligned and something special happened. I love the way this woman sang. Voice a little rough around the edges sometimes, but always from the heart and very soulful. The elegance of Hank Jones on piano. Stan Getz sounds fabulous. Charlie Haden, bass and Mark Johnson, drums; not too shabby. https://youtu.be/Apfw6jKYoxIhttps://youtu.be/e4FS_UdbMMQhttps://youtu.be/I6_xxpqFEF8 |
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pjw, there is no “best” drummer. Awards of that kind are nice and all, but can’t possibly be a definitive statement of “best” anything. An obviously subjective, not to mention, narrow call. Obviously a great drummer, and I would say he was probably the “best” drummer for Brubeck’s quartet. Could Joe Morello have been as effective as Elvin Jones in Trane’s quartet? No way. Just as Elvin Jones’ style would have sounded completely wrong playing “Take Five” WITH BRUBECK’S QUARTET.
The success of Brubeck’s best known records owes a lot to the great combination of players with similar musical sensibilities. I can’t imagine some of Brubeck’s best known music without the drumming style of Morello nor Desmond’s alto sound.
I would say Brubeck owes a good amount of his deserved popularity to his sidemen and would probably have been the first to say it. When Brubeck made it on the cover of TIME Duke Ellington himself knocked on Brubeck’s hotel room door to congratulate him. Brubeck said “It should have been you”. |
pjw, I think I did answer your question. But, let me try it this way:
The short answer is NO, I don’t think that Morello would have gotten “best drummer” had he not been part of Brubeck’s group; a very successful quartet with hit records. But, this doesn’t take anything away from his skill or contribution to Brubeck’s quartet; or, that he could be considered “best” for that particular quartet. Personally, I think that this is the criterion that was used. It is unlikely that he would have been part of some other quartet with as high a profile. What this does for me is to reinforce my feeling that those surveys are far from definitive. Sometimes they are political and subjective at least to a degree. You mention that they are very popular magazines. “Popular” will always have some degree of “pop” in it.
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pjw, what is your answer to your question?
Merry Christmas, all!
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Actually, pjw, I didn’t. It was an honest question; would not have asked it otherwise. It wasn’t clear to me from what you had written what your feeling about it was. In fact at first I thought that you might have been implying that Morello wasn’t deserving of the accolades. Thanks for clarifying. Personally, I don’t put too much stock on those “best” lists. |
Correction:
”obviously there is best anything in Jazz”, should read “obviously there is no best anything in Jazz”.....obviously. |
mary_jo, I believe you make a common mistaken assumption. You assume that the “pure observer”. “sees the magic” before the “creator” does. Or that the creator always or automatically starts to analyze. Not the case at all. It is a deliberate choice. Moreover, the “creator”, or listener who is open to critical listening, can often see a kind, or level, of “magic” that the observer who, to use an expression used recently re a different topic, wears only “rose colored glasses” on his ears won’t ever see.
Knowledge is never a curse; when kept in its proper place. Example:
Rok said he will never be able to listen to the great “Giant Steps” the same way again since now he’ll be able to hear Flanagan stepping all over his piano solo. On the face of it, for some, that may seem like a curse. However, I guarantee you, that this little bit of awareness (knowledge) about that performance will open a window to more of the magic of the recording and of Coltrane in particular. |
One doesn’t have to compare at all while listening and just enjoy the particular artist and/or context. On the other hand, ever wonder why some recordings just don’t push the right buttons for you? Why they just don’t have the right feel? The above is often one of the big reasons. Personally, I find it interesting to understand why. No artist is perfect and in many ways their imperfections and limitations are part of what makes them unique and interesting. |
Rok, yes, without a doubt. While some piano and bass players are very flexible and can play well in a variety of styles, some are (were) great in one or a narrow range of styles, but were weak in other styles. Dave Brubeck or Hank Jones (just two examples that come to mind) would have sounded all wrong had they replaced Herbie Hancock in Miles’ 60’s quintet. Milt Hinton would have sounded just as out of place in Coltrane’s quartet instead of Chambers This is not just a subjective thing. It is also an obvious generational thing. As great as players like Brubeck and Jones were they did not have the modern harmonic approach, nor were capable of playing that way, that players like Hancock did which is one of the things that made Hancock a great fit (appropriateness) for a musical setting like Miles’ where they always stretched the harmonic boundaries; as opposed to the much more traditional and “inside” harmonic language of Brubeck and Jones. On the other hand, it’s doubtful that Herbie would have sounded quite as appropriate playing in Brubeck’s quartet. It was Brubeck’s particular style and feel that, along with the other CHOSEN players, defined Brubeck’s sound. Or, do we think that Brubeck could have played Herbie’s “Watermelon Man” with the kind of funky swagger that Herbie plays it with? Doubtful. Same applies to bass players. Can one imagine Bill Evans’ trio without a bass player like LaFaro, nor those after him, which were improvisers on a level far beyond that of most bass players up until then; and, who because of that ability were able to help develop the “conversational” style of piano trio playing which has become pretty ubiquitous? All this is why there is “best” anything in Jazz. Context is very important. Like our OP, I like Art Blakey, in the context that he was strongest in: band leader, or the usually upfront drumming style that he played with. He wasn’t one to make the kind of “stealth” or more “behind the scenes” musical contribution that works best with some music. Would this music have as much impact with Blakey instead of PhillyJo? Would certainly have a different feel; which would then impact all the other players and their own contributions: https://youtu.be/NjMl1tjXJNQWhat about here, instead of Tony Williams? Personally, I don’t think it would work at all: https://youtu.be/RhmSYvilvJ8Classic, and often mentioned, example of a player thrown into a context that he was not ready for. The great Tommy Flanagan totally out of his element; to the degree that he can barely keep up and then just stops improvising and just comps to the end of his chorus: https://youtu.be/30FTr6G53VU |
pryso, as I wrote the word “generational” I knew that it might get me in trouble; and for the very reason that you reacted to. You assumed that I referred to the musicians’ respective ages, when using the word “generational”. In the context of the point being made it referred to the various and broader chronological pieces of THE MUSIC and it’s evolution. IOW, musical generations. We have no disagreement as your point is well taken.
Having said that, Blakey’s music remained pretty much within a fairly narrow style and interpretation of “hard bop”. As you have pointed out his band was a “school” as much as anything and was a great place for young players to get schooled IN THAT STYLE. Miles, as you point out, was much more of a chameleon and the MUSICAL GENERATION that he was representing at any given time was reflected with his choice of players.
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