Well, Alex, that explains why I couldn’t find the album you posted in his credits. Please note that in your post with the clips you wrote Fred Katz, not Kaz; that was the beginning of the confusion. Anyway, not a total loss for me since I was able to rediscover Fred Katz. Re Fred Kaz:
The crazy thing is that there are a lot of parallels between the two different players. Both were film composers, both Classically trained and how they started, and both had an interest in Eastern music.
My earlier comments about his piano playing also apply. There is nothing “wrong” with his piano playing. He certainly has good “command” of the instrument as you point out, but I don’t think he is an exceptional piano player nor stylist. He has a certain swing feel and general approach that is not, as you say, rooted in the blues; what some, fairly or not, refer to as “too white”. As with Katz I find his compositions more interesting than his piano playing which is good, but not anything that I would consider exceptional. In the clips you posted the compositions are the focus, IMO. In fact on the third clip, “Sand”, there is not one single note that is improvised; it is entirely through composed. Still, interesting musician. I’m glad to have learned about him. Thanks for that.
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Yikes! More later. But, thanks anyway. |
Always good to have you check in, Learsfool. I will defer to you on all things French horn. I agree about Bloom’s greatness and would add that no one player is ever “king” to all concerned. Yes, things have changed quite a bit stylistically over the last couple of decades in NY as in many other places; on all instruments. As a friend often says “We’re the old guys now”.
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nsp, re Bobby Henderson: Yes, stride piano. “Ain’t Misbehaving” was written by Fats Waller, considered the greatest of the stride piano players. Great clips, Alex. Loved that “Jitterbug Waltz”. Wonderful player, Henderson. nsp, great Lee Morgan clips. Higgins is great as always. Wasn’t familiar with that record and it goes on to buy list. Interesting about the dates with Wayne Shorter? Here’s a favorite Wayne Shorter record with Higgins, but with Freddie Hubbard on trumpet instead: https://youtu.be/pFb51lJzw7khttps://youtu.be/qFZ-F4RIIQQ |
Interesting topic and interesting comments. Tempo IS a major element in the success of an interpretation; and regardless of genre. I had the same reaction as Pryso to one of the recently posted “Lazy Afternoon” clips. I then posted one that I felt was “a lazier Lazy Afternoon” to make the point. This was my comment just a couple of days ago about tempo re a Classical work that was posted (sorry for the self-quote): **** Now, and not meaning to get too “Zen” about this. Some pieces of music just seem to flow more at a particular tempo; arguably (but probably) the tempo, or very close to the tempo, that the composer intended. One of the many little mysteries in music performance. **** Here is the composer of “Speak Low” himself and his chosen tempo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgQJvNhuiAE |
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Btw, “What Is This Thing Called Love” and “Woodyn’ You” are from the afternoon set with Donald Bailey and Pete LaRoca. “I Can’t Get Started” is from the evening set with Wilbur Ware and Elvin Jones.
It should be noted that the first of acman3’s great clips of the new Coltrane release is a tribute to Rollins, “Like Sonny”. When all is said and done, probably the two greatest tenor players.
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Great account of your pilgrimages to Coltrane’s home, pjw. I was there just once about twenty five years ago and it really was a moving experience. Re Brecker: No doubt one of the very greatest tenor players. My contention, and I’m far from alone, is that he was the greatest saxophone virtuoso that ever lived. He could do things on the instrument that no one has been able to do; and with a level of control and finesse that wasn’t pretty incredible. Not to take anything away from my “beloved Brecker”, but I think it’s fair to say that had there been no Coltrane there would have been no Brecker; at least not as we know him today. Generally regarded as the greatest of the “post-Coltrane” tenor players he built upon what Coltrane did. One of the reasons that Coltrane stands above all others. Coltrane’s MUSIC MAKING was on a level that reached the spiritual. Amazing artist. Mary_jo’s clips are a good example. You may find this interview interesting with Brecker talking about Coltrane: https://youtu.be/rK5OOmNajOI |
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pryso, good catch. Corea recorded Children’s Song #1 on two other occasions. Once with Gary Burton on a record called “Crystal Silence” and a group version on the classic record “Light As a Feather”. Perhaps that is were you heard the song previously. Then again, perhaps you have heard Bela Bartok’s “Mikrocosmos” series of piano pieces (intended for beginner pianists). Corea is a big admirer of Bartok and Mikrocosmos were the inspiration for his “Children’s Songs”. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_f196xWR6LEhttps://youtu.be/kdWWKywse5ghttps://youtu.be/0lgB_uqFCrI |
Loved that live clip with Dizzy and Stitt, pjw. Swinging their a&&es off as they say. Thanks! And the audio quality really IS good. Too good? Did anybody catch what Gus Johnson says at 3:09? He and Ray Brown kept looking to their left. I wonder who she was? 😘
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I checked out a couple of his videos. I like the guy too. Seems like a very nice guy with a calm and very measured way of explaining hi-fi basics (!). Perhaps a little TOO diplomatic with his “conclusions”, but does a nice job.
Well, “Lawdy, lawdy”, the cat is out of the bag. I believe you are a closet audiophile, Rok! A couple of takeaways from his “Hi-fi myths” video:
*** “Different cables do sound different” ***
(Duh!)
*** “Every manufacturer of amps, turntables, etc., will tell you that changing internal cables and other parts will result in changes in the sound even if the changes can’t be measured. Moreover, it would be arrogant to assume that just because it can’t be measured there is no difference in sound” *** (slight paraphrase)
Yup, you are turning into an audiophile!
Reminds me of a comedian’s routine that I heard years ago re the way John Boehner (remember him?) chose to pronounce his name instead of the way that it should be pronounced: “Dude, just embrace it!“
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Well, then my apology; it sure looked that way in the text. What you say about the odds may be true, but I’ve known some who have changed their deep seated views; and not always in the “expected” direction. Still, even it true, it is no excuse for not showing respect and having a modicum of tolerance for a different point of view. Unless, of course, anyone of us considers himself all-knowing and infallible.
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Well said, Schubert. I would only add that the assertion “never will” is not necessarily true. This goes to why I have refused to comment on politics on this thread for quite some time; although I did so early in the history of the thread. I won’t comment on politics, but since I care about the thread and it’s subject matter, I don’t mind commenting on the “process” of discussing issues here.
The problem as I see it has been, not that there is disagreement, but that those with a differing point of view, or that choose to not discuss such matters on a music (!) thread are often demeaned and presumed to be uncaring of others, unsympathetic to their plight, having blinders on, etc., etc. Assumptions that are completely inappropriate and often off the mark. Were this not the case and if respectful and open minded dialogue were to ensue, some points of view just might be changed. Otherwise, as has happened here time and time again the effort becomes self defeating.
As always, wishing our OP only the best. |
Mary_jo, thanks for the Morricone links. Wonderful!
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Today is the great (!) Hank Mobley’s birthday. To say that he was underrated is an understatement. I suppose it is to be expected when a tenor player lives in the shadow of Sonny Rollins and John Coltrane. Not exactly an innovator like Rollins and Coltrane, but always very distinctive and I love the beautiful logic of his story telling. Very prolific with twenty six (!) Blue Note records as a leader. Someone here 😄 likes to proclaim “No blues, no Jazz”. Never a problem with Mobley. It could be said that he was a Jazz conservative. During the 60s’ big move in the music toward the kind of “progressivism” that would see Trane’s intergallactic travels and Miles’ fusion, Mobley stuck to his Hard-bop roots. Sadly, in spite of his huge talent he was a bit of a social misfit who couldn’t manage money and suffered from bad health. At the end of his life he was living at the Amtrak station in Philadelphia. Probably his most highly regarded record: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLGSxK-_xeRIaaa2pVu1eBD3GGmRmTASsqAnother great one: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLGSxK-_xeRIbM-BIcbbe7Q59QztHpCTJfOne of my favorites and one with one of the best album titles in Jazz: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFBADE21A3C6C7A53 |
pryso, did you see my post re Children Song no.1? Good to see you back.
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I hope you can appreciate the positive nature of this comment. As Schubert correctly pointed our supposed disagreement (about music) is, and has been, “not so much”. Of course there has been disagreement. Why wouldn’t there be? We all have opinions and it is highly unlikely that any two people will agree on everything. However, there has been a hell of a lot more agreement than disagreement. I think the key is to use the disagreement as a way to have better understanding instead of immediately jumping to “the dark side” and shutting down the dialogue; or worse...far worse. Regards. https://youtu.be/gsBC5C5ERho |
Great clips, O-10. Context is important for the player; just as it is for, and influences the PERCEPTION of the player by the listener. As you say, Pepper always sounded great, but I don’t hear anything IN GENERAL that makes me feel that Adams, the player, sounded better as a sideman than as a leader. For a player of that caliber that would be a first since, as a leader, a player will have more freedom than he does as a sideman and would be playing with a rhythm section that he feels most comfortable with. I do agree wholeheartedly that some leaders do bring out the best in players, especially young players in need of “schooling”. Just my opinion and only for the sake of discussion. Case in point. I came across this live version of “Three Little Words” while posting the “Urban Renewal” clips. Obviously this is just one example and arguably irrelevant. Clearly not Byrd nor Mingus, but Pepper as sideman with the Bill Evans Trio. I was surprised how hesitant and not fully engaged he sounded: https://youtu.be/AdjAFbGej1USame tune with his own trio: https://youtu.be/LlDMfIjB8PsThanks for the great clips. |
Schubert, re “disagreement”. Exactly! I’m good with that. Great Gonzalo, thanks! I posted this the first year (!) of this thread. From his American debut recording. Although written by a Mexican composer, possibly the most popular ”Cuban” bolero: https://youtu.be/EWtucrfzCCg |
**** Kindness is definitely not sine qua non in just every case.****
Of course not and I don’t disagree at all with what you say, mary_jo; there is a limit to everything. However, my comment referred to a person’s reaction to simple and honest disagreement and a suggestion for a better way to interact following the disagreement. The subsequent response to an extremely negative or abusive reaction to the disagreement is a different matter. Although, it is also true that the provocative comment is sometimes made simply to “stir the pot” and illicit a reaction (loneliness and boredom can be a b!tch). In that case the best reaction is no reaction at all and to leave the small minded provocateur “hanging”. |
Great posts, nsp. Excellent points and well laid out. Your observation about the pressure that artists put on themselves is exactly right. Musicians are their own toughest critics. All this brings to mind a quote often repeated by musicians: “If I don’t practice for one day, I know it, two days and the critics know it, three days and the audience knows it”.
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Thanks for the Larry Young clips, nsp. Great stuff. I agree with your assessment of the various stages of his career. Nice organ sound on this early stuff; very “church”. Another favorite organist. Just plain fun rendition of this classic tune: https://youtu.be/H2R3o35fA14 |
Forum etiquette; IMO.
The idea that, for reasons mentioned and sadly borne out many times previously, it is best to keep discussion to the stated topic of the thread seems to be a hopeless cause here. I do hope I am wrong about that. One specific piece of etiquette that, if observed, would help prevent things from getting out of control even further than they often do is the idea that any comment or music (!!!!!) posted is fair game for anyone to comment on. Sure, anyone can address another contributor specifically, but not exclusively. Seems to me that this why there is private messaging. It also seems to me that the purpose of wanting that kind of exclusivity in a PUBLIC forum is to, not only keep the dialogue exclusive, but to also make sure that everyone else views it without having the benefit of participating. Not cool. |
**** I never separate the gear from the music. ****
Neither do some audiophiles. Who cares about the all too many “audiophile” audio-jocks for whom it’s all about the gear. The two interests can live side by side without interfering with the music; aux contraire. Hate to break it to you, to the “great unwashed” (to quote someone here 😎), with Polks and Blue Jeans, you my friend are an audiophile. It’s all relative.
**** For instance, a person would have to explain to me how Coltrane playing Giant Steps would sound different, with different wire / gear. Speakers excepted. ****
Do you cook? Ever use sea salt instead of iodized? If you have, then you have your answer. On a great steak (any dish) it gets out of the way of the flavor of the meat more. If it’s not the kind of thing you care about, and there’s nothing wrong with that, then don’t worry about it. It will still taste good with regular salt; just not quite as great. Personally, I prefer to be able to hear when Trane had a particularly great reed 😄. |
An acquaintance who is shopping for a piano (not in this price range!) sent me this last night. You may find it interesting. Obviously not definitive, but interesting nonetheless and I definitely have a preference. https://youtu.be/mrB8IthgoRQ |
Schubert, Galliano is undoubtedly a great artist. How can one ever argue with “just plain pretty”?. Very pretty rendition of the tune. Loved it! Thanks. I loved how they crept into the melody by first just hinting at it before making a full statement of it. Beautiful!
And, what a fantastic and interesting example of the meeting of cultures: A tune composed by a Hungarian which became an American Jazz standard, as performed by a French man born to Italian parents and played with a Cuban cha-cha beat! Wonderful. |
Ok, you know about Drake mouthpieces?! Now I’m really intrigued. Do tell.
Mark VI, Trane’s horn. |
Each and every instrument, piano, brass, woodwind, guitar by the same manufacturer sounds different than another; although, same model instruments will have similar family traits. Sometimes the difference is very subtle and sometimes it is very obvious and every possible degree in between. The difference is “felt” as well as heard by the player and may or may not be obvious to the listener depending on hearing acuity. Top players often go to the manufacturer (by invitation) and try many instruments in order to find THE ONE for he/she. The differences are due to differences in the composition of the metal in the case of brass instruments (including saxophones) and the craftsmanship that went into the construction of the particular instrument as well as differences in the actual design of different model instruments from the same manufacturer. Brass needs to be burnished with special tools in order to achieve the right “ring”. Inexpensive instruments are made from parts stamped out by machines without the final hand finishing and will sound very similar....bad. With woodwinds...think about it and all the potential differences in the grain of the particular piece of exotic wood as well as other natural differences in wood. Its all mainly about resonance and the differences in resonance. It is highly unlikely that two of anything will resonate the same way. But, rest assured that the differences are very real and can be very audible and important to a player if not necessarily to the listener.
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$225,000 range. Bosendorfers up to $500,000 depending on finish. Unique instruments can go for over $1M on auction. |
Waiting for my connecting flight and was about to send and saw mary_jo’s excellent post. To add to it and perhaps of interest to some. Long 😱:
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On a long airplane flight with some time for a few further thoughts on the issue of differences between instruments. Btw, re the comparison done by “the kid”, my favorite SOUND was from the Bösendorfer. I stressed “sound” because there was nothing special about the music making from the player himself. That particular comparison was interesting because it included the Fazioli, an instrument that has gained quite a bit of notoriety recently; especially considering the fact that it is such a new company (only about 40 years). Considering all the good press and feedback from players that this brand has been getting I was surprised that, for me, it came in a distant third in the comparison. On the excellent comparison that Schubert posted, which did not include the Fazioli, I was less decided as to which piano sound I liked best. I did not like the Yamaha at all and vacillated between the Steinway and the Bosendorfer. I loved the Bosendorfer’s clarity and power, but there was something uniquely beautiful about the sound of the Steinway (I’ll take a little salt with that; sea salt, please 😊). All this goes to why further thoughts and also relates to my earlier comment re the sound of instruments in response to Alex’s earlier question.
Every instrument has a certain “built-in” sound quality that will manifest itself to varying degrees no matter who the player is and varies due to who the player is; in part because it will also have particular and unique response characteristics. All this for the reasons mentioned in my earlier post. More generally speaking, each brand of instrument will have certain sound qualities as well as certain specific response characteristics unique to that brand. Of course, there is variability within different samples of the same model instrument, but the “family resemblance” will always be there. Now is where it gets really interesting:
Each player will also have certain “built in” sound characteristics. Every player has a different physical makeup; and, as a hopefully interesting aside, this relates to some of what the audiophile in us deals with as concerns issues of resonance and the “tuning” of an audio system. Just as the supporting surface that a turntable sits on becomes part of a turntable and subsequently affects the sound of the turntable; or, the way that hard cones vs soft squishy footers underneath your preamp also impact the sound, when a musician strikes a piano key or holds and blows into a trumpet, the musician and his unique physical makeup becomes part of the instrument itself and affects the resulting sound. Of course, and obviously more importantly, there is also the “touch” and the musical intent of the player which is how a musician “shapes” the sound. It then becomes easier to understand why the unique response characteristics of each instrument (“action” in the case of pianos) suits or is preferred by a particular player more so than others. Also why there is no universal “best” instrument when dealing with different instruments of extremely high pedigree. IMO, an instrument cannot be more “musical” than another of similarly high pedigree; the player can be musical. The instrument, for all the reasons mentioned, can be more synergistic for a particular player than some other instrument. Preference for a particular family sound (brand) by listeners is a personal preference. For a musician, when a particular family sound and response characteristic mixes with that particular player’s inherent sound, approach and artistic intent in a synergistic way does the result cross over into the realm of the musical.
Rubalcaba sounds fabulous on the Bosendorfer; it suits him very well. So did Oscar Peterson, another player with great power and clarity of tone. I recently posted a clip of the Bill Evans trio with Pepper Adams playing “Three Little Words” as an example of Adams as sideman. I don’t know if anyone noticed, but Evans was playing on a Bosendorfer; the first time that I have noticed that. Every time that I heard him live at the Vanguard he was playing the club’s Steinway. I don’t know what he played on all his recordings, but I have no reason to believe that they were not Steinways. What I do know is that on that clip, before I noticed that Evans was playing a Bosendorfer, I noticed that his sound was more brilliant than the somewhat covered and more gentle tone that I associate with his playing; sounding less introspective. Better? Worse? He was always great, but it did sound slightly less like Evans to me.
Nice way to pass the time; “Rocketman” was disappointing ☹️. Best to all.
Sent from my iPhone
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“Following Frank Zappa’s appraisal that ‘jazz isn’t dead; it just smells funny’, I would say that I think it smells just fine. It’s like cilantro – some people really like it and some people just can’t get with it.” — Brad Mehldau https://youtu.be/7vMszycqqlchttps://youtu.be/qPe-9jW21tQ”Like they say, as you get older, you either get smarter or you get stupider. And the people who get stupider are the ones whose thinking gets stuck. They lack the ability to continually re-contextualize themselves in the ever-changing world around them. Wisdom is nothing less then a deep understanding of our contingent nature. It is not learning a set of truths and then resting with that knowledge and living out your days. Wisdom involves accepting that truth itself is variable. To really know this involves humility, for one must be humble to forsake one’s own claim to unshakable truth. The best literature is wisdom literature. It’s always teaching us to not give into our vanity, and it’s teaching us to constantly question a presumption we make before it becomes calcified into personal dogma – in this way, we don’t get stupid. Wisdom literature will teach us to not fall under the sway of teaching – even its own teaching. The best learning is always inherently contradictory, malleable, and full of irony. It will always contain a clause that renounces any supposed absolute truth that it might possess. It is something to play with and discard, and then perhaps come back to again at a later point in life, when there is something else to be gained from it, something new and different. Any great wisdom should have this ability to re-contextualize itself at any given moment. If ideas cannot be re-contextualized, they are mere dogma, and wind up in that trash bin of history.” |
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**** So, women rule... ****
Unfortunately, not often enough. |
It’s called humor. And, for the astute - a literary segue....or, something like that 😊
“Get a grip people” |
Since the intended humor and sarcasm of my Woody Allen post escaped some and on the subject of great clarinet playing, my favorite Jazz clarinetist. For me, perhaps the only clarinetist that has sounded completely credible playing bebop and who also had a truly beautiful clarinet tone. As an aside, the exact same chord progression as the above “Oleo”. A chord progression used in many bebop tunes and referred to as “Rhythm changes” because it is a chord progression first heard in George Gershwin’s very popular tune “I’ve Got Rhythm”: https://youtu.be/a_VfDtZLxtI(Unfortunate that, once again, the entire tune is not available on the Tube.) https://youtu.be/aYU8H4A7YDMhttps://youtu.be/rs5F5nRciLo |
Trying to get off caffeine and need some help. What is it they say...that we tend to replace one habit with another? I need to hear this on a pretty regular basis; wakes me up every time: https://youtu.be/Ns02jzH8CcwToo bad the clip is cut short; would have loved to have heard NHOP’s bass solo. |
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Thanks for that cup of Sarah, mary_jo. Very nice. I enjoy this particular bean as well; slow brewed. Ahh.....I mean, used to....wait....you know what I mean: https://youtu.be/-bvF6Pg-LYs |
Awesome Ornette, acman3! Segueing from Schubert’s post, something a little different. Jazz on the Tarogato; Hungarian national instrument. Scott Robinson, one of the most interesting players around and fan of unusual horns: https://youtu.be/KuHXJqRPRI0(Appropriate song title, btw; given recent goings on. |
Glad you liked the Anat Cohen clips, pjw. Very talented lady. I like her Brazilian choro band in particular. Good tenor player also. I’ll post some of her tenor things when I have a little more time.
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Schubert, Engelbert Wrobel; leader.
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