Jazz for aficionados

Jazz is not the only genre in trouble.  I think they all might be.  Listen to this woman.   She is not talking about Jazz, but she is talking about Jazz.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5AKiC7QLV4&app=desktop

Just substitute the names with Jazz greats.

Cheers

Neither.  Yes it matters.

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Not Jazz, does not even sound like Jazz.   But what does these days?

Need I remind you 'aficionados',  that Jazz is a music that was created in the Bordellos of New Orleans.   Now, imagine this being played there.  I think  the Madame would show them the door.

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Neither according to this Mississippi native.

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***** Jazz is art so let the artist paint the colors the way they see,feel and hear them. *****

Actually I tried that idea myself.  I took an Art course at the local community college, bought some paint,  brushes, and a canvas.

I expressed my true inner feeling on canvass, and then took off for Austin to make my fame and fortune.

I never heard people laugh so hard and long.   They said my inner feelings were junk.   But I feel, with proper support from the local media, I could have been a star.   Its seems to work for some folks.

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Mercy Lord, Mercy !!

Speaking of cruel and unusual.

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He was, that's why he should know better.

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Welcome back O-10.  Hope you are feeling better.  You were missed.

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*****But can you deny the impact of the blues in that development of what became jazz out of New Orleans? With that genetic connection I for one can’t completely separate jazz from the blues. *****

No one on this thread has stressed the connection between the Blues and Jazz more than I have. I realize you may have missed a lot of the earlier stuff. The Blues is essential to Jazz. It is the mother of Jazz. Most of the noise posted here is noise precisely because there is no hint of the blues in it.

I know this guy from back in the day. I always thought him some sort of folk singer. He found a niche and made a nice living. Good for him. A white guy from Mississippi singing the Blues was quite the thing with the ’progressive’ set and coffee houses in the northeast.

He does not have the voice, nor the life experiences to sing the blues. What would this guy know about Parchman farm? You wanna hear the blues, try Howlin’ Wolf, Muddy Waters, Albert Collins, Elmore James, Fred McDowell, Big Mama Thronton, or a million other real Blues artist.

An example of what I mean.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1g36CXfQ00

The passage at 1:40 ruined this entire performance. Although Nelson is a fine artist in his own right, he does tend to get in over his head when he sings with R&B and Jazz artist. The voice does not fit that type music.

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I think Brother Miles and Company  would have been shown the door.   Remember Pops said " If you can't dance to it, it ain't Jazz ".   I didn't say that, Louis Armstrong said it.

The problem is some folks just can't accept Jazz for what it is.   They want to change it, until they like it.   Just like some so-called Christians.

BTW, It was never proven that I was a regular patron at Red Ruby's House of Pleasure.

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*****He also famously said: “Bebop sounds like Chinese music”. I guess bebop is not jazz either.*****

I think it was perfectly reasonable that  the music of Bird and Dizzy  would sound like Chinese music to Pop's ears,  Especially when you consider the music that Louis Played, and the music that proceeded Bebop.  I think Chinese is the perfect description of some their stuff.

The new 'Jazz' musicians want to change Jazz music, until they can play it.  I don't blame them.   Everyone has to eat. 

Charlie Rich, the Country singer, thanked Ray Charles for changing Country Music to the point where he, Rich, could sing it.  

At least we have our CDs/LPs, so they can change away!!!

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Should have gone to Mexico

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGIE28q3fEA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0aIjyX7vwI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQBj2cO8NGA

Anytime the words of a blues song just do not  make sense, think SEX.   Then all becomes clear.

We don't need no stinkin' Mose Allison.

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Someone say T-Bone?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-nVl1RyFuA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiYLIMwOVlUI

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THERE IS SOMETHING ON YOUR MIND

(I wonder what it could be)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEHMtX3vGvA

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More singers from Mississippi

Now, this is the real deal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDVb5wRn4ng

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Mose Allison:

Still bogus.

Arthur Blythe:

The last Jazz LP I ever purchased, in El Paso, was by Blythe.

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;

*****Do you really think that jazz musicians pushing the envelope make more money than those who play what audiences already recognize and like? Really? The opposite is true.*****

My point exactly.   People want to hear the good stuff.

Lets go over previously covered things that I thought were settled.

1. The public decides who and what is great and good, and what is not great and good.   The public, not musicians.  Money talks, BS walks. Your statement demonstrates that fact.

2. Why is it that Jazz is the only genre that MUST evolve?   People still love Bach, Beethoven, Mozart etc.......   no matter how much noise the Stravinsky types make.  No one is throwing their Classical CDs in the trash because the music is old.  Why should I dump Ellington.

3.  Where are the KOB, Criss Cross, Giant Steps, Mingus Ah Um, Sidewinder, Song for my Father etc..........CDs/LPs of today?  The "you gotta have" albums.

4.  Where is the staying power, The continuity, The consistent outstanding performance and body of work from any modern day Jazz player?   It's all sort of hit and miss.   Maybe I'll get lucky next time.

5.  What year was the last Jazz Standard written?

6.  These modern guys spend a lot of time playing, or trying to play, Trane,  Parker et al.   I wonder why?

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Btw, this all applies to Pop and Blues music as well.   The quality of music in any era follows the bell curve.  No getting around it.

*****being on center stage, and mesmerizing a crowd of people is what drove him. *****

I think this is what drives most artists.  More than money, they crave  recognition of their talents and their efforts from the public.   Those few who don't feel this way,  fall under The Frogman's first law.

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***** Eventually he did not even want to call his music jazz anymore.*****

I have always given him credit for this.  Now think about it for a moment, Miles Davis,  did not consider his music Jazz ANYMORE.   He did not say his music was never Jazz, just that it is no longer Jazz.  Post-Bitches Brew I assume.

Btw, Wynton said the same thing about Miles' music during this period.

We all seem to be in agreement.

Change does not mean better.   It's just different.

Cheers

*****What we hear is determined by the same factors as what the musician plays musically. The musicians origination is one of the greatest factors in what he plays. What he is actually playing, and what he thinks he's playing might be two different things*****

Never thought about it that way.  You could be on to something.   I guess Mose Allison does think he is playing Jazz and Blues.   From his point of view, he is.

Great point OP.

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*****Talk about “bogus”! Miles felt that attaching the “jazz” label to it was far too limiting and went counter to the true spirit of jazz: improvisatory creativity and boundless search for new ways of expression. The very meaning which ironically seems to elude some.*****

Lets see: He thought calling it JAZZ was too limiting because the true spirit of JAZZ is improvisatory creativity and boundless search for new ways of expression.

I guess that statement makes sense to you and your ’followers’. Btw, I didn’t say his music was not Jazz, Miles didn’t think it was Jazz, and Wynton said it wasn’t. That’s good enough for me. I guess your learned opinion trumps the opinion of Wynton Marsalis.

*****One of the recurring and mistaken “gems”. Kenny G anyone? Informed, thoughtful and open-minded listeners determine what is good (for themselves). *****

Well, ’listeners’ may determine what is good for them, BUT listeners don’t make a living playing music. Musicians do. And successful musicians know who and what ultimately signs their checks. The rest hang around barber shops talking what coulda, shoulda, woulda.

*****Hate to break it to you, but what artists crave the most is recognition from fellow artists; they are each other’s toughest critics.*****

Does not even pass the common sense test. Just something you said to Refute my point. You can’t eat or pay your rent off of peer group acclaim.

*****Ok, this one takes the cake. So, Mose Allison, jazz pianist, composer, singer and recording artist only THINKS that he is playing jazz. But, you know better, he really isn’t. Not that it is a kind of jazz that you don’t particularly like; it isn’t jazz at all. Poor guy doesn’t have a clue as to what he’s doing. Got it.*****

Absolutely. He thinks he is playing The Blues. Just like the middle class boys from London and Liverpool, and their fans. They think it’s the blues. Probably passes muster at Julliard. But not at the Rum Boogie. And trust me, they know.

Yes, I do know better. You think I was born yesterday? I think I know the blues when I hear it. Poor guy had a clue he was making money, mostly outside the South, other than that, he is clueless. I wonder if he ever played in any juke joints in Mississippi?

And I’m glad to hear you have finally got something. I was beginning to wonder.

I asked a few questions in my previous post, concerning new ’Jazz’ and the players thereof.. I see you were selective in ignoring them. hmmmmmmmmmm. Makes a body wonder.

Cheers

Btw, my career choice had no room for all this humility stuff. That’s where we agree that everyone will be right an equal number of times.

*****Most written in the late 70’s- early 80’s. Enter your text*******

That's coming up on 50 years!!!!   That's what you call modern?

*****And, I’m also certain that you understand that most “jazz standards” were not written as jazz tunes at all, but were written for Broadway and other popular genres. *****

I know that, but I was speaking of  standards created by Jazz players / composers.   And you knew that.   Stalling!!

Your list seems kind of old to me.

*****As always this nonsense gets very tiresome. Just what is it that you gain by denigrating others’ viewpoints which, if anything, are inclusive of others’ tastes? *****

I am not denigrating anyone or anything.   Just stating my point of view, along with a few facts.

Having done so, I think I will take a sabbatical along with the OP.  As someone said recently, my kind of music is no longer discussed here.   But they did offer to give me links to places where it is discussed.   I sure do thank you all.

Cheers

You look a bit pale...

I wonder what they drink to cure stupidity?

You folks are like the poker players on the Titanic.

Don't you realize that a rapper named Kendrick Lamar was awarded the 2018 Pulitzer Prize in Music for his album 'DAMN'?   Talk about misguided pointy headed do-gooders.

This award has always been awarded to real music artist, in Jazz and Classical genres.

Damn indeed!!!

Rome is burning and you folks are fiddling.

Pay attention people!!

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Another one bites the dust.

Another American institution slides into vulgar mediocrity.

This prize has been awarded since 1943.  Most have been won by Classical artist.   A few Jazz notables would be Ornette Coleman, Wynton Marsalis and Henry Threadgill.    There may be a few others.

None of them my cup of tea, save Wynton.   But tea has nothing to do with it.

Now take a moment and think.  Of all  the Pop artist that have come and gone since 1943, that did not win this prize, why this guy?

Any great albums produced since 1943? 

KOB?  Thriller?  Ray Charles' Modern sounds of Country and Western Music.  Ellington?   Monk?   Armstrong?   Parker / Gillespie?  all the great Rock groups, Motown,   the list goes on and on.

Game changers.

So now we have a Pulitzer  winner with a Parental Advisory on the cover.

They said it represents the 'complexity' of African-American life.  I wonder how many Black people were on the panel that made this decision.

Ain't progress grand?

Cheers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOM13I_FkmA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OA4UZFkQVtM

Reading "Hillbilly Elegy"

Outstanding Book!!

Should be required reading for all Kool-Aid Addicts.

Cheers

The most famous embodiment of the despotic maestro was Arturo Toscanini. Even in the glory years of the handpicked NBC Symphony Orchestra, he routinely flew into tantrums during rehearsals, breaking his baton, storming off the stage, vowing never again to conduct such louts, whose playing was an insult to him and to Beethoven -- who, the point seemed to be, were equals.

(I’m sure it’s obvious that Alex’s very funny clip is a parody)