Jazz for aficionados

pjw, glad you liked the Elis Regina clips.  And, thanks for the Kuhn/Lovano.  Great stuff.

Have a great time!  Jazz can use more devoted fans like you.  

They are both outstanding indeed.  Being that it is a trio, probably the bassist.

Thanks, acman3

Exactly 17 minutes!  Amazing, but not surprising in the least (“For the sake of ‘temporary’ peace”).  Possibly the shortest effort at peace in history.  O-10, you would do well to apply some of that expertise in psychiatry to your own psyche; it is in dire need.

.https://youtu.be/e5G0GnX_1tM

Great record from one of my favorite quintets. Pepper is great as always. This was not, in fact, Herbie’s recording debut. The record “Out Of This World” by the same group was recorded earlier the same year. It was released the same year while “Chant” wasn’t released until years later. An interesting footnote is that “Out Of This World” was billed as being by the Pepper Adams/Donald Byrd Quintet. The same quintet subsequently recorded as the Donald Byrd Quintet with Pepper Adams listed as sideman along with Herbie and others. Would love to have been a fly on the wall in the room that day 🤨. Recommended!

Funny, acman3!  

Great stuff, all! Thank you!!

If forced to choose my favorite jazz pianist I am afraid that the spot would have to be shared by two players: Bill Evans and Red Garland (deliberately in alphabetical order). In many ways extremely different players. To me, Evans was very introspective, sophisticated and with a gentle, almost feminine (sorry, mary_jo) touch. Garland is a little more forceful and has a very fun and rollicking sense of swing; what nsp correctly referred to as “impeccable sense of swing”. Then there is that distinctive pianistic technique that he pioneered of playing a solo sometimes entirely using “block chords”. Interesting, but typical, that Miles would choose them both for his bands in spite of being so different; first Garland then Evans.

There has been a lot of debate about who the real composer of the fantastic tune “Blue In Green” (Miles, KOB, 1959) was. Miles claims he authored it. There is evidence that it was Evans who wrote it; including from Evans himself who in his usual understated way (like his playing) said so in an interview. Given the little bit that I know about each of them, I think that I would put my money on Evans.

Go go back in time a year or so to Miles’ record “Milestones” and the title tune composed by Miles. It was originally titled “Miles”; no absence of ego there. The band is identical to the KOB band, except that it was Garland on piano instead of Evans and Jo Jones on drums instead of Jimmy Cobb. Pay particular attention to the “head” (melody) of the tune:

https://youtu.be/k94zDsJ-JMU

Go back in time again (1956); a year or two to one of of my favorite Red Garland recordings. Notice the introduction that Garland plays to “A Foggy Day”:

https://youtu.be/JwpD3-ojtqM

Coincidence?

I doubt it. I can imagine Miles and Garland talking about music, tunes and each other’s records and the subject of that little intro coming up. Miles liked to “borrow” musical ideas; probably innocently sometimes, not so innocently other times. I would bet that little intro was the genesis of the tune “Milestones”. High compliment among musicians; but, Bill Evans would never get his royalty payments. Very complicated individual Miles was.

Garland with a favorite alto player:

https://youtu.be/uS4dFEzn5MU

Classic “borrow”, pjw.  Both great tunes.

Yes, “Turn Out The Stars”.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0q2VleZJVEnWR73QgHWaQUpoht3fHnS0

Excellent points; and, of course, you are correct. A picture does not always tell the whole story. However, I don’t see it as a question of judgment. Miles was known to often be a very aggressive individual with a huge ego; personally, I don’t see room for debate as far as that goes. Evans was known to be, drugs and all, of a much gentler demeanor. Certainly compared to Miles and I associate that type of demeanor as that of someone who would likely not want to deal with issues of legality and simply not pursue it; while being glad that his tune was out there. Imagine how Miles, THE Miles Davis was perceived by musicians at that time. Genius, bigger than life, aggressive; and, last and certainly not least, he had chosen Evans to be in his band. Challenge THAT? Not easy. And, I do think the visual tells at least part of the story.

Thanks for the Abercrombie/Bergonzi “Come Sunday”, nsp.  Fabulous!  I loved it.  Great band with some of my favorite players.  Bergonzi is one of the unsung heroes of modern tenor.  Gary Versace sounds awesome.  Now, I must confess that it took me a minute to appreciate the very different approach to the tune.  It is one of my favorite ballads and I am so used to the painfully slow approach of the classic Ellington/Johnny Hodges/Mahalja Jackson that it was almost shocking to hear the tune done that way.  It works big time. 

**** My question is :If this is true why didn't Evans sue to have his name put on the song? Did he leave the physical evidence in the studio and had nothing to show as proof? Did he consult a lawyer? Maybe he was naive and did not think his work would be claimed by another? ****

I think he answer is in what I tried to describe of Evans’ generally understated  attitude and personality.  Personally, I think it was Evans who wrote the tune and it can be heard in the tune itself.  Very Impressionist.  Evans was a huge fan of Classical Impressionist composers Ravel and Debussy and took a lot from their harmonic language.  Perhaps an answer to your question might be in the visual.  Maybe I’m being unfair; but, if you knew nothing about them, which of these two individuals do you think is less likely to want conflict and call lawyers 😊:

https://youtu.be/mW_7gRH7ASE

Or:

https://youtu.be/bH8GeQZTdHk

Maybe I got it all wrong 

https://youtu.be/DXcjt6IoWiQ

Very nice Tom Harrell. Fabulous player with a thoughtfulness that in a way reminds me of Bill Evans. Love his playing. Check out his solo on this; pretty much as good as it gets (a 24 yr old Bob Berg is on fire).

https://youtu.be/jzcgAaWK5GM

****  Is there something that you don't like about his output since 2000? ****

Not at all.  To be frank, I have not followed his output as closely in recent years; post Phil Woods.  

Loved the quote, mary_jo.

Fantastic live Woods/Harrell clips, acman3. Hadn’t heard those. Besides the great playing one of the things that they remind us of (again!) is what a brilliant composer Phil Woods was. Great tunes. Interesting and complex without becoming inaccessible. Great stuff.

pjw, some favorite Tom Harrell recordings (great composer in his own right):

“Sailaway” with a favorite saxophone player, Dave Liebman.

https://youtu.be/iDp-Fz3CA0A

https://youtu.be/27V8ylNNKSo

”Form”. With Joe Lovano. Hard to find although available as a download. Took me a couple of years to find an lp copy, Fyi, I just noticed that there are two copies available on eBay currently.

https://youtu.be/6KfdupfAD_0

“Upswing”

https://youtu.be/j-LIXh0NElg

As as sideman he has made many great recordings. Speaking of great composers, I like his playing on the Horace Silver “Silver ‘n....” series. Love the bass line on this:

https://youtu.be/2Jwu2PHq6r4

Great record, pjw. Blast from the past; hadn’t listened to that in years. Thanks. If forced to choose my favorite of all his records, this other one would have to be it. Personally, I feel this period of time was his peak as a player:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvxWibFr0wiK1yRCnxmn2m_ywGy3FVvqE

For a look at his formidable composition and arranging skills:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL_BXwixw5da5BqikO7MXj-rYiHbHgYQtA

Something that sometimes goes under the radar about Phil Woods is his skill as a lead alto player. A very specific skill. There are a lot of great alto players who don’t make good lead players in a large ensemble:

https://youtu.be/7uhUZYSQZVg

I posted this a while back. One of my favorite things on YouTube with Phil. A great peek into the man, his personality and his life in the music scene. Fabulous stories and anecdotes; especially about Bird and Mingus:

https://youtu.be/6SJxmCzYpoo

Re an earlier discussion about “borrowing” musical ideas, check out the intro to “Willow Weep For Me” on the first link (Musique Du Bois). Sound familiar? Just one more of the countless examples of the tremendous influence a certain recording had on jazz. Hint: Phil Woods did NOT play on this extremely influential recording. Any takers?

That’s right, from KOB.  Actually, I was thinking of “All Blues”; but I think you are also correct, the bass line is reminiscent of “So What”:

https://youtu.be/-488UORrfJ0

https://youtu.be/ylXk1LBvIqU

👍

Geri Allen with Betty Carter.   What a rhythm section!  

https://youtu.be/oD36b5lq_Vg

Keegiam, truth is that a lot of things get repeated postings here.  Good to revisit most of them.  Now, eight or nine postings of the same xxxxxx....well........😊

Wonderful musician, Billy Childs; and, great clips, acman3.  I first heard Billy Childs back in the early eighties at the Blue Note (NYC) with Freddie Hubbard; he was a member of Freddie’s band for many years.  With this band:

https://youtu.be/BQ2V_wCU2n0

I think that one of the reasons he goes a bit under the radar is that he is very busy as a composer/arranger.  He is wonderful.  Check out his bio/credits; several Grammys and other high profile awards for his composing/arranging.  

https://billychilds.com/bio

Multi faceted musician:

https://youtu.be/IyFXydeDwt0

https://youtu.be/75mydW0sA08

https://youtu.be/4YKN8-VZ1SM

Very nice Harold Land clips. Thanks all!

Great improviser. That record with Bill Evans was the first Harold Land recording that I acquired after having heard him live in a tiny club in the middle of nowhere in Kentucky while traveling. How much could that tiny club have been paying a great artist like Land? Not much. A sign of the times for traditionalist Jazz before the uptick in popularity with the arrival of the heralded “Young Lions”. I confess that I have always found something in his tone, a dryness, that I find grating although it never detracted from my appreciation of his improvising genius.

Speaking of Bill Evans. No dig on Monk. I like them both. “Apples and oranges” doesn’t begin to describe the differences; more like apples and pizza 😊. I love bass players and Scott La Faro is a favorite  Before La Faro gained well deserved notoriety with Bill Evans, he was recording with Harold Land. This was the second recording that I purchased with Land on it. Highly recommended...if you can find it:

https://youtu.be/u06MiRZc4JY

https://youtu.be/UihLgF5bhZs

pjw, one of the many interesting things about Bill Evans and his playing is that he, by his own admission, didn’t feel as comfortable in a solo piano setting as he did in a trio or other setting. If one thinks about it, it is not really that surprising given his overall personality and shy demeanor. However, his solo recordings are great also; even if generally not as highly regarded as his trio recordings. I have never heard a performance by Evans that I didn’t like, but I admit my very favorites are those with Scott La Faro and Paul Motian.

I have all his solo recordings and enjoy them all. My very favorite is the 1963 recording “Solo Sessions, Vol. 2”. There is something intensely personal about the playing on this record. He was struggling with his drug addiction during this time and I find something very poignant in his playing’s attitude. The usual beauty and gentleness is there, and more; even if there are moments when he doesn’t seem as focused. For something unusual, and technically “solo”, you can try “Conversations With Myself” on which he overdubs and has....conversations with himself. It may sound gimmicky, but it’s pretty brilliant. Not quite “solo”, but if you don’t know it, check out his duo recording with Jim Hall, “Undercurrent”. Fantastic record.

https://youtu.be/Nv2GgV34qIg

For me, one of the most positive and interesting things that can happen over the course of a thread like this is that one can develop a sense for the musical sensibilities of some of the other contributors. We all have personal preferences and can even disagree at times while respecting those preferences. I mean this comment in the most positive and complimentary light and if I am being presumptuous I apologize; but I wanted to share. As I read Alex’s interesting and insightful comments about the Cohen concert I kept thinking that they were almost exactly as I expected they would be.

Alex asks some very interesting questions.

**** The music that they play does not reach to blues or soul idiom, it is of different origin as well as his phrasing. ****

Exactly!

Fantastic Monk!  What an individual!  For me, his style always sounds eccentric.  Jagged and angular rhythmic feel; not your typical swing.  The poster of the second comment for the second clip put it very well, I think:

”...not pretty, but beautiful; not smooth, but stylish”

Very stylish.  Uniquely so.  I can definitely understand why his playing might not appeal to some.  It took me a while to get Monk many years ago.  Absolute genius.  As far as his sidemen went,  Charlie Rouse GOT Monk.  Johnny Griffin is one of my very favorite tenor players.  In absolute terms he was an infinitely more proficient player than Rouse; and with amazing energy.  In many settings he was as good as it got.  Yet, for me, with Monk his style just didn’t work nearly as well as did Rouse’s.  Well, it works, but somehow the end result sounds less “Monk”:

https://youtu.be/HtT9fTQ5YwA

https://youtu.be/4dyVE6MwjcE

Is it possible to dance while being hunched over?:

https://youtu.be/xxV8RwIUC-g

https://youtu.be/3QwiTYBzU68

Another Chick Corea live clip. What a huge loss Bob Berg was! 

https://youtu.be/UhF179iXLyM

Fabulous! “Let’s Fall in Love” is a gem. Sleeper contribution: Louie Bellson. Check out his brush work. Amazing. Talk about deserving more attention! Peterson is his usual brilliant self. My one complaint about the record is that I feel that the piano, the rhythm section in general, could have been mixed a little hotter. The focus is Louis being very upfront and I think the music would have been better served if they had been treated a little closer to equals.

Epic, indeed! Fabulous Trane. Listened to this last night. For me, Coltrane and Cannonball seem to compliment each other even better than on the classic records with Miles on which the stark differences in their styles border on the distracting. Cannonball’s “Stars Fell On Alabama” is classic

https://youtu.be/OgdnbJ5smR4

Without a doubt, emotion; and no cliche.  That “Angel Eyes” is fabulous. Thanks!  I can understand your association to “modern” jazz with the way that Pearson “extends” the harmonies of what is actually an old standard.  I would call the sound simply great playing.  If there’s no emotion it’s not great playing.  And, I do think it is about our ‘settings’; we each have them.  The trick is recognizing the emotion even when it’s somebody else’s settings.  

Loved the Dom Un Romao recording! Thanks. Great arrangements. One of the best Brazilian musicians to be active in the USA jazz scene. The three years he spent with Weather Report were my favorite period for the band.

Made me think of another amazing Brazilian musician that I was listening to yesterday. Not nearly as well known, but very enigmatic and a true genius, multi instrumentalist Hermeto Pascoal:

https://youtu.be/KGfvsVW5Mw4

His more “out” music makes me think “Brazilian Frank Zappa”; complex, full of surprises, and often a little bit of humor:

https://youtu.be/epA2DD1ZlSc

https://youtu.be/dgcmoJ1uD8M

On a related note, another side of Duke Pearson:

https://youtu.be/ATc5tTyESEQ

https://youtu.be/8ujI6e66ATQ

Nice! Paul Bley was a monster. The clip and Alex’s mention of “emotion” made me think of this. I loved this YouTube poster’s comment:

**** Chet plays sometimes a note that is so tragic, so wildly sad that it feels like an angel just died, died some agonizing poison by traitor death, and then to top it off no one goes to his funeral. ****

https://youtu.be/Rl5wuQn0KJk

No second line at this one.

**** On here I assume everyone says what they feel like…..

Of course.  Completely agree with that, and as it should be.  A great forum to express ideas and feelings about those ideas; even when there may be some qualification or disagreement. 
 

**** ……Unless they are musicians. ****

Don’t follow the logic.  What I wrote is exactly what I feel.  
 

That’s pretty funny.  Btw, as hard as you may try, you sir are NOT part of the great unwashed 😊

Funny, I’ve been around musicians of just about every persuasion for about fifty years and I have never met any “elevator musicians”....no room for the drums 😊.

I won’t comment on someone else’s characterization of a music. It’s not my characterization and it’s all too loaded. Instead, I will take a stab at characterizing, by way of description, how many of CTI’s recordings, including Salt Song, were made. This is significant because the method used results in some of the qualities that I hear in the music and which are the reason that I am very mixed (pun) about that kind of musical aesthetic:

Stanley and rhythm section arrive at the studio. The drums are not in an elevator 😊, but are in a soundproof booth separate from the other rhythm section players. Chances are that the bass, piano and guitar (maybe) are in the main room. Stanley may also be in a separate soundproof room. There is very little physical connection between the players. They listen to each other via the sound fed to each of their cans (headphones) by the recording engineer after that sound is EQ’ed and balanced per the producer’s (Creed Taylor’s) tastes and musical vision; not the ambient sound in the room. The balance and EQ settings have to be altered as the sessions progress since different rhythm section players are used on different tunes. After a quick run through, or two, of each tune (remember, they are not a working band), they do a take; or two, or three. Taylor decides which take is the best, but he thinks that the piano (or, whatever) solo could be better. He brings Richard Tee back in to overdub a new solo over the previously recorded rhythm track. Then, Airto is brought back in to add and overdub more percussion “toys” to his previously recorded percussion track. The layers of sweetening start being added.

Later that evening the string section arrives and they all are situated in the same room with the possible exception of the added acoustic bass. They don their cans and, conducted by Deodato, they overdub their parts over the rhythm section and solo saxophone (maybe) parts recorded earlier that day. Parts in a string arrangement that was farmed out to an orchestrator that will never set foot in that studio and may or may not get credit for the arrangement; depending on how big the name was (Quincy would get credit). It’s very possible that they will play to a mechanical “click track” that is heard superimposed over the music track. If the woodwinds were not recorded at the same time as the strings, they may play and overdub their parts after the strings are finished.

That night, while thinking about the work produced that day, Taylor decides that a little vocals sweetening is just what two of the tunes need. Makes some calls and the vocals are recorded the following day. He had also decided that on one of the tunes the tenor solo should follow the guitar solo, not the other way around. So....you guessed it, Stanley and Eric Gale overdub new solos the following day over the previously recorded tracks. Result? Good solos, but the give and take and musical interaction that happens when all the musicians play together is not there to the same degree. But, at least the order of solos is the way the producer wants it.

During playback for final mix down later that week Taylor notices that the violins are not perfectly in tune with Richard Tee’s piano. What to do? Can’t bring all those string players back in; too expensive. No problem, just add a healthy dose of reverb to the string track...fixes everything. Hides the problem and is just a little more still of the distinctive reverb heavy CTI sound.

While not my favorite work by Turrentine by a long shot, still pleasantly funky and fun listening if not particularly inspired. Then, there’s that tenor sound!

Mayoradamwest, if you don’t know these records check them out for good examples of Turrentine’s best work.  I am not a huge fan of Turrentine’s CTI output either; or, most from CTI for that matter.  I do mostly enjoy CTI Turrentine since that fabulous tenor sound and soulfulness are hard to dislike.  Most CTI’s lean toward a very produced (often overproduced) aesthetic with a whole lot of studio “sweetening”.  Btw, welcome to the thread:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLwdLMzVSwXAgMDgmYxf053GeFX1sQQMk_

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_npHnsC2n7NTyB-WkVSmLz4ek6XkH_6YdM

Wow! So, if I’m understanding your premise correctly the piano should be the primary (solo) instrument in this stone cold masterpiece. I suppose that from a compositional standpoint it’s possible to rethink it that way. Not so sure, though.

One that came immediately to mind and speaking of Berliners, one of my favorite Berliners, the great Karl Leister:

https://youtu.be/w1E77EGpgrk

Great record.

I love the way this guy told a story. Complete command of where he was going at all times. No filler (bs) to buy time until the next “great” idea comes to mind. On trumpet, one for Alex’s “why not him?” list: Lee Katsman. What a player!  What ever happened to Lee Katsman?

One of our OP’s favorite players (I think). Pepper Adams was a monster player:

https://youtu.be/Yns7UJlo6Og

Obfuscation by way of a torrent of irrelevant data and presumptions.

Isn’t it interesting how sometimes a person hears only what they want to hear. An interview over one hour long with one passing reference (with interesting factual example) to an Irish rhythm that crept into the melting pot and all of a sudden that becomes “(all that) they talk about”.

Maybe you were correct after all, Alex. For at least one party it is about politics.  

Couldn’t agree more. Interesting, my interpretation and response to your original comment was, in a way, the opposite of what you meant. Sorry about that. Also interesting because my example, Brahms “Clarinet Sonata” No. 1 serves as a perfect example of what you meant.

Brahms dedicated his two clarinet sonatas to the great clarinetist Richard Muhlfeld who Brahms had heard and been so impressed by that he had previously written his Clarinet Trio for him. Brahms was said to have “discovered the beauty of sound of the clarinet”. When he composed those pieces Brahms expressed his voice with the sound of the clarinet in mind. As you say, what he had to say (his voice) would not have been expressed as well on any other instrument. Perfect example:

I suppose in part because relatively few major works have been composed for the viola, Brahms himself later transcribed the two sonatas with the clarinet part adapted for viola. Still beautiful music; but, I don’t hear as much of his voice when performed that way. 

https://youtu.be/Vi8q54R7ObA

Re “Giant Steps” and for anyone interested in understanding not only the tune itself, but why the tune is a milestone in Jazz.  Interesting stuff and highly recommended, but only geeks need apply 😊:

https://www.vox.com/videos/2018/12/4/18125993/john-coltrane-jazz-explained-improvisation-giant-steps

I hope there is room for dissenting opinion on James Carter’s “Giant Steps” (and reason there is vanilla and chocolate).  Very exciting and exuberant, JC is a great player and like all players he has his strengths and his weaknesses.  IMO, navigating the incredibly difficult changes to GS is simply not his bag.  He simply doesn’t make the changes; and, all other sources of excitement and vigor in his playing don’t hide the fact that he doesn’t quite have the kind of ultra secure command of harmony necessary on such a challenging tune.  This is no reflection on all his other excellences; it is an amazing test of improvisational skill and sophistication as the above clip explains well.  Very simple test: listen intently to the melody of the tune and keep it in your mind’s ear while the player improvises.  Can that melody still be “heard” while the player improvises?  Helps greatly to listen to Trane’s masterful execution first (it is linked in the above clip).

Three players who may not have JC’s particular brand of excitement appeal, but who are much more proficient with this particular challenge; which is what the tune is really all about:

https://youtu.be/bhkb-_SEtxQ
(Brecker solos first)

https://youtu.be/hE8inh5yy_A

Rok, you couldn’t be more mistaken. An old and tired argument and, as always, ignorance is bliss. Over and out.

Nice!

Great clips. Navarro was definitely one of the all time greats. Except for Dizzy’s high chops, probably an even better trumpet player from an instrumentalist point of view. Dizzy’s equal, but ultimately not, as far as overall influence (died too young).

The Kenny Clarke (1946) clip is particularly interesting from a historical point of view. It shows players who were transitioning from Swing to Bebop. The solos, with one notable exception, and even the tune itself show experimentation with what would become “bebopisms”; stretching of harmony and interesting little melodic twists. Only one player, Sonny Stitt, sounds fully ensconced in the language of Bebop. Good stuff.

O-10, that must have been some lady that caused you to spill your beer all over your shoes without you even noticing ☺️. That was probably the reason that they were looking at you instead; not to mention the forlorn look on your face.

Great renditions of that great tune; thanks all. Here’s a version that I have always liked. Much more commercial and produced than the others; but one time when even though the producer went to town with a whole lot of “sweetening”, it all seemed to work well. With Dave Sanborn at his best.

https://youtu.be/3XG8Eg01uwY

pjw, thanks for the clip. Great stuff. He does a great job of explaining the harmonic details of the tune. I applaud your inquisitiveness about all this; it all adds a great deal to the appreciation and enjoyment of the music. There are so many different layers to this music and the experience of listening to it.

I think that James’s organ/drums duo does more than play the tune “adequately”. They are really good rhythm players. It’s all a matter of degree. Do I think they are as swinging and nuanced as some others? No; but they are certainly good. Just my opinions. Check out Peter Erskine on the Brecker/Mintzer clip. Amazing.

You write that in that Flanagan and Taylor were replaced on two songs, GS and Naima. I don’t know about Taylor, but Flanagan’s performance on GS is the stuff of Jazz lore, but not in a good way. He really struggled with the tune’s changes, is very tentative and actually stops improvising and just comps for the last several bars. He just could not cut it. Much has been written about all this. Playing over changes that intricate and FAST was something that even the best players at the time were not used to and some were never able to do it.  Some didn’t even try. I don’t know the dates of those alternate takes, but if they are from a later date (even just a day or so) then the reason for the change is pretty obvious.

Trane practiced incessantly and worked on all these harmony techniques methodically in order to expand his musical vocabulary. None of it happened by accident. He was always searching for new sounds and new techniques and hanging with Monk, being the great individualist that he was, was probably very appealing to Trane. It’s interesting to me that, in a way, there is a similarity to both of their general rhythmic feels. Not what could typically be called smooth and laid back, but a little angular even jagged instead. Great question, btw. Regards.

**** My point was that Carter can play GS anyway he wants to play it. That’s what Jazz is all about, individual freedom. Freedom from the written page. ****

Of course he can. And it can also not be very good, or may even suck, as a result. The whole idea of “individual freedom” at all cost has been used as a fallback position for justification of a whole lot of mediocre or even bad playing; just look a some of the “out” or avant garde stuff. Not saying that JC is mediocre at all, he’s a great player in many ways. Just saying that something like Giant Steps is not where he excels.

Honoring the changes of a tune is sacrosanct in Jazz and this is not just opinion. That doesn’t mean that there can’t be a lot of “personal freedom” within the confines of the tune’s structure (includes the changes). That is the whole idea behind what players like Trane strived for. He stretched the harmonic boundaries. However, that “stretching” is an organized and logical “extension” of the harmony; never a free for all. It is not that hard to tell when a player is “stretching the boundaries” and when he’s just doing what jazz players simply refer to as bullshi##!ng one’s way through the changes. The changes to GS are a bitch.

I must say that I find contradiction, and irony, in the fact that you can acknowledge that players “avoid GS like the plague”, but then you dismiss the importance of the very reason that they avoid the tune.... honoring the changes.

I think that nsp’s post on the matter is really on the money. Regards.