I think that drummers don’t get enough love. A notable exception here has been Joe Morello. Many listeners “endure” drum solos; sometimes with reason, but other times because, in the context of a tune, it’s a bit jarring for the listener to all of a sudden lose tonality and melody (in the usual sense). On this extremely swinging record Philly Joe Jones does an amazing job of, when its time to solo, not suddenly take the tune to another musical planet as often happens, but stays grounded in the feel of the tune. Love this record. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOAhcCb9en7BrHu6wfPmdcoCTCYiJV531BTW, in honor of our OP and his love of Grant Green, I would point out that on this record, to me Grant Green sounds as good as I have ever heard. |
My dear wife will occasionally, with amusement, bring up the subject of Agon in casual conversation. I happened to tell her that I had posted that Streisand record. Her response was “It takes a real man to post Barbra Streisand”. Not quite sure how to take that 😊
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A couple of thoughts re the issue of drum and bass solos offered in part because I am not sure that the sentiment of my first post on the subject was clear. “Drummers don’t get enough love”.
I like bass and drum solos....good ones. And I completely agree with Schubert’s sentiment:
**** If 20 minutes of bass and 10 minutes of all else is the best expression of that work or that time works for me ****
It is true that drum solos, and to a lesser extent, bass solos are sometimes not on the same level of musicality as horn and piano solos. There are reasons for this. First, it is much more difficult to improvise an interesting solo with only rhythm, only one of the two most basic foundational elements of music...rhythm and melody (melody can imply harmony). However, it doesn’t mean that it is not possible and some drummers do it very well. The mentioned Joe Morello and Philly Joe are great examples. In the case of bass solos it has only been fairly recently that bass players have reached the level of technical virtuosity that one takes for granted from horn and piano players; but, once again, there are and have been players who, IMO, are every bit as accomplished in this respect as horn and piano players. Eddie Gomez, Scott LaFaro, George Mraz and others come to mind. Practically every tune on many of Bill Evans’ famous live trio recordings features a bass solo. So, I guess what I am trying to say is that there is no set rule, IMO, about the “appropriateness” of having drum or bass solos on every tune. If the drummer or bass player can add to the music at the same level of musicality of the other musicians....why not?
Of course, the problem is when the drummer or bass player is not on the same level as soloist as the other players. Now this topic gets tricky. The notion of every player on the bandstand playing a solo is rooted in a very basic tenet in small ensemble jazz....everyone gets to tell his/her story. From the musician’s standpoint and “artist mindset” this goes to the basic idea that jazz is an interactive and communal musical endeavor and, to the chagrin of the audience, the audience necessarily takes the back seat to this mindset. The “purist” jazz player, correctly or not, expects the audience to accept his “story” without necessarily having to worry about the audience’s expectations or preferences. Interestingly and ironically, we find this purist attitude mostly among the LESS experienced and less accomplished players; as pryso points out, the “local jazz players”. It is a kind of musical immaturity on the part of the players and more experienced and confident players know better and understand when a crappy drum solo will only detract from the communal story. Personally, I don’t remember ever going to see a major jazz act when the drummer soloed on every tune, or even close to it.
I guess the takeaway is that, just as the experienced players try to be more realistic about all this and consider the audience, it’s probably also of value for the audience to put the practice in better context and perhaps be more tolerant. In keeping with the often cited truism that the best place to perfect the craft is in front of an audience, if not given the chance to actually do it in front of an audience we would never have a good drum or bass soloist.
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**** Why isn’t this one of the great Trumpet solos? **** It is. Along with the solo on “Compared To What”. Monster player. Are you stealing my material again? 😊 **** 07-01-2019 2:49pm Eddie Harris was a genius. Lots posted here early on; and, in fact, I would venture to say that “Compared To What” has been posted here more times than any other single tune. Don’t have the time to dig it up right now, but there is video on YouTube of that very live performance; definitely worth checking out. For me, Benny Bailey’s trumpet solo has always been at the top of my list of most exciting Jazz solos ever. **** https://youtu.be/kCDMQqDUtv4 |
Always good to hear from you, ghosthouse. I’ve actually really liked that description of a (bad) bass solo since the first time you posted it; “bad”, my word, being the operative word. Very funny. I hope you nor your brother in law mind, but I have appropriated and used it at least once in conversation 😊. Re the article:
With respect to the author (I think)...what a bunch of cr*p!. Sorry to be blunt, but IMO it’s narrowminded and misinformed. For starters, his characterization of LaFaro’s role in the Bill Evans trio is totally cynical and unaware. The idea that Bill Evans would allow another musician in his trio to be heavy handed and dictate the musical proceedings is absurd. Worse yet, it ignores a very important “event” in jazz, the development of the “conversational” style in piano trios and in which the bass player is much more than just a time keeper and plays in a way that suggests a conversation with the piano. On one of the half dozen times or so that I saw Bill Evans at the Vanguard he was auditioning drummers. Two drummers sat in with his trio (Mark Johnson on bass) over the course of two sets and replaced Joe LaBarbera for a couple of tunes. One drummer was Bob Moses and I don’t remember the other. In spite of his very quiet demeanor, Bill Evans knew exactly what he wanted from the drummer; I doubt LaFaro was able to control Evans as the author suggests.
Bad solos are played by players on all instruments. I’ve heard plenty of bad saxophone and trumpet solos. I know that some listeners simply don’t like the sound or timbre of certain instruments, but I think it should be noted that it’s not unlike saying “I don’t like that Monet because I don’t like the color yellow”.
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Thanks, ghosthouse. I stopped after comment #100 and could not find a single comment supporting the author’s point of view. One musician did say he didn’t like to solo, but that’s an entirely different issue. Anyway, not much support there. Thanks for the clip, enjoyed it.
acman3, thanks for the Evans clips and the blast from the past. And, fabulous Tony Williams, btw. Total badas$!
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Very true, Schubert. It’s also possible to have a “great” voice and be a rotten singer. |
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Not at all, ghosthouse; just interesting discussion. You’re right, I didn’t take references to Tristano as “comments” in the blog eventhough you specifically said that he was“cited”. If you don’t know Tristano’s playing check it out. Makes sense that his very intellectual improvising style would prefer strict time keeping from the rhythm section and little else.
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Thanks for those clips, mary_jo. Very interesting and I really enjoyed them. The opening to the Esma Redzepova clip is one of the wildest things I’ve heard in a while. Vlatko Stefanovski is a wonderful player. Always fascinating to hear how musical influences crossed borders in your part of the world. Speaking of which, and not meaning to get too personal, are you of Romani extraction?
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Well, not “nobody”, Schubert. I agree; I don’t really get the adulation. Well, I do, sort of. Beautiful color in his voice. Plush, rich and creamy with enough power for when needed even if he often leans sharp. But, his phrasing and sense of line at times seems choppy to me without enough sense of the bigger picture. When I hear him I get a similar feeling as when I hear Carreras; almost, but not quite. Looks great, ‘though.
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Glad you liked it, pryso. Danny Kaye and so many of those Hollywood stars from that period were so amazingly talented; “triple threats”. Louie, of course, was amazing. I can’t think of many musicians who were both major shapers of a serious music and very popular entertainers.
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Wow, Marija! Very soulful singing (and playing). I’m very impressed and what a great surprise! Thanks for sharing.
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mary_jo, I have posted this around Thanksgiving time. My favorite “thank you” jazz tune. Jerry Dodgion’s best known tune. Sounds like something Billy Strayhorn might have written: https://youtu.be/iIjKV1M8kqM |
Catching up on some great piano clips. Thanks all.
nsp (and acman3) loved the Stefano Bollani clips! Fantastic. What a great player and what a great attitude in his playing! Incredible left hand!!! I was not familiar with him at all and that needs to change. It’s interesting to me how ethnicity often creeps into a non-American jazz player’s approach and attitude in jazz. I hear similarities in both Bollani’s and Enrico Pieranunzi’s playing that I attribute to their ethnicity. Of course, it is a generalization, but there is a quality that, for instance, Latin players bring to jazz just as there is with any nationality. Jazz is, fundamentally, an American art form and just as a non-American’s spoken English will have an accent that “accent” can be heard in their approach and attitude when playing jazz. Some jazz purists consider this a “disqualifier”. I totally disagree; it can make for very interesting jazz. Loved Bollani. Liked Pieranunzi as well, if not as much. Good fit for Chet Baker with a gentle touch.
Acman3, its interesting, when you wrote “Most European players have that crossover between Jazz and Classical.” I thought I understood exactly what you meant; correct me if I’m wrong. To my ears there is a GENERAL quality to many European jazz players in their sense of swing and harmony that very much evokes Classical music. Not surprising given the centuries old Classical music tradition in Europe. It’s a subtle thing but it’s there.
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Glad you enjoyed the video, Alex. Very interesting indeed. Wynton is one of the most insightful and knowledgeable figures in music today; and very erudite.
The disagreement has to do with, among other things, the origin of Jazz and the influence of the music and culture of countries outside of America on that origin. They are universally (not Rok) recognized ideas on how those multi ethnic influences shaped Jazz as we know it today. No art form is created in a vacuum, independent of the ethnic and cultural influences of its creators; whether direct or handed down. |
nsp, it’s from the album “New Life”. Great record. The record was dedicated to Max Gordon who was the owner of The Village Vanguard and great friend of musicians for decades. TJMLBB has had Monday nights at TVV for many years. Pepper Adams sounds incredible on that tune. Awesome contrast between Jerry Dodgion’s gentle Johnny Hodges-like alto and Adams’ very exuberant baritone. https://youtu.be/o7quash4Cichttps://youtu.be/UtxVbcx4Mj0I’ve posted this before. One of my favorite YouTube live concert clips. Sir Roland Hanna on piano swings his as& off! https://youtu.be/4ZLvqXFddu0 |
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I would say it a little differently. There are plenty of important subjects to bring to the public in a constructive way; especially right now. The media often CHOOSES the unimportant ones, because the media is no longer as concerned with conscience of purpose and objectivity. Seems appropriate to post it again; my favorite version of the tune: https://youtu.be/xepnRbEK0lkWhat I really wanted to post was, coincidentally, this by the great Ray Charles. There is great time and then there is GREAT TIME. Ray Charles was one of those performers who could to dig so deeply into the rhythm that it takes on an extremely commanding feel. Louis Armstrong had that same quality. Check out Ray’s “stop time” singing @ 1:51. Kills me every time. Nice tenor by David “Fathead” Newman. https://youtu.be/v_tcBVXnCU4 |
Schubert, not too many listeners know about Tony Pastor, one of the more obscure heroes of the Big Band era. Not only was he a terrific saxophonist as you point out, he was a good singer often featured as such in Shaw’s band. Shaw’s was one of the greatest of the big bands. A very demanding leader there were no weak links in Shaw’s bands. As you have pointed out, his saxophone section was always a model of great ensemble playing. Benny Goodman was crowned the king (of swing), but in my book Shaw the better clarinetist.
Btw, I second pryso’s sentiment re O-10. Interesting, I was going to say much the same thing in my previous post. While searching for the YouTube link for the Ray Charles/Betty Carter “Baby, it’s...”, I came across a link for a version of the tune supposedly by Charles and Nina Simone. I had no idea that they had recorded it and intended to post it with O-10 in mind. Alas, it was a mistake by the poster. Not Nina Simone, but Betty Carter instead.
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So what is it about that Ellington record and Goodman in general that does it for you? What is your preferred genre(s)? Are you saying that you have listened to a lot of Jazz and those two artists have been the only two that turn you on? If not, maybe you are an aficionado. https://youtu.be/pA059SzhWpY |
Pryso, great Basie clip. Very relaxed Count; and lesson in how to say the most with the fewest notes. Hard to have “Basie” and “relaxed” in the same sentence and not think of this chart: https://youtu.be/nqn4nyZz0toEven more relaxed (and in tune) version. Basie “alumni” band. Can any solo be tastier than Snooky Young’s on this? https://youtu.be/RlX0b-AJWz4 |
Two great examples. Please forgive my bit of hyperbole re Snooky Young. Still, beautiful muted trumpet. Nothing Clifford Brown ever played was less than tasty.
Btw, Snooky Young was that rarity among trumpet players, fantastic lead player who could also play great jazz. |
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Great clips all; thank you! Not exactly your typical “sleigh ride” kind of vibe, but one leaning more to the serious side of Christmas. One of my favorite Christmas song renditions. For me, McCoy’s playing simulates the way a composer uses an orchestra in its sheer size, weight and variety of color. Amazing playing: https://youtu.be/TdGuxP8BzsYMy favorite current jazz clarinetist. Sleigh ride time; or, at least a stroll 😊: https://youtu.be/abnwSXusocwEven when his voice is not having a particularly good day, the singing and story telling is wonderful: https://youtu.be/Dla_RC2XBzoMerry Christmas everyone! |
Today is the birthday of a pianist that hasn’t been looked at. In many ways the quintessential West Coast Jazz musician. Fine Jazz pianist (and accordionist) with a solo recording career and who was a Grammy winning composer ensconced in the LA studio scene. We’ve all heard his music many times without realizing it; he wrote the themes for popular TV shows “Mash”, “Dallas”, “Get Smart”, “”Mannix”, and many others. Definitely one of “the cats” during the heyday of the LA scene. A style which can be said to be classic West Coast; cool, light swing reminiscent of Vince Guaraldi’s. His favorite format was always the piano trio . The personnel in his trio remained unchanged for decades and it shows; they played with a particularly high level of cohesion and musical telepathy: https://youtu.be/ms_j6Y_-h1ohttps://youtu.be/n6qCJsPuPekhttps://youtu.be/1jAZ9a400x8https://youtu.be/tNRR18F_51chttps://youtu.be/4r6WOHP2lJ4 |
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Rok, re Concertgebow: THE (unanswered) questions for orchestras and their players right now. First, a couple of things as part of the always important backdrop: Fabulous orchestra and one which can play Beethoven 7 in its sleep; and I mean that in the most positive way possible. This is important because were they playing a newer and/or unfamiliar work it would be a different story in some important ways. Also, there is a reason that players in an orchestra normally sit the way that they do (did?).....strings, two to a stand and everyone much closer together. The reason for close seating is it allows maximum musical integrity. More on that later, but goes to follow that not seating close together would not allow maximum musical integrity. Yes, they sound pretty “normal”.....playing a very familiar work. Still, and taking into account the effects of individual conductors’ visions for the music, right off the bat one can hear two subtle musical details that could possibly be attributed to the “social distancing” seating arrangement. Listen to the accented chords that open the piece and compare to this; same orchestra, same hall and presumably same recording arrangement: https://youtu.be/-4788Tmz9ZoIn the “COVID” version the players (strings especially) dig in a little more; a little more aggressive. I think that this is an attempt to compensate for the fact that there is more space between them. When that is the case one doesn’t hear the other players’ dynamic expression as clearly as when one is sitting closer together which in turn allows one to play with more dynamic nuance. Listen to the overall sound of the orchestra in the “COVID” version. To me, it sounds a little less “concentrated” and is a little “airier”; as one would expect from having more “air” between the players. What is the French horn player to do now that the trumpets, which he may have unison lines with, cannot be heard as clearly now that they are farther away? It can be a problem. With unfamiliar music, a big problem. Professional orchestral players are very flexible and adaptable. As you note they still sound very good (normal). This is all uncharted territory and there is a tremendous amount of anxiety as to all the possible known and unforeseen effects of all this. What about larger (many more players) works which require extremely close seating in a stage’s finite amount of space? Will this affect orchestras’ programming? Probably; certainly in the near future. Time will tell. BTW, do you own the Beethoven violin sonatas? In my book some of the greatest music ever written. |
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Not at all. When you stop wanting to listen to Jazz, then I’d worry. |
Well, you guys beat me to my two favorites! Two more that I really like. One of my favorite piano players that we don’t hear enough about: https://youtu.be/klHZuEo0YbAOne of the most insteresting CTI’s, imo. For sheer instrumental ability, probably the greatest jazz flute player ever. Here on flute and piccolo (!) on the Sonny Rollins tune “Airegin” along with session ace Steve Gadd, perhaps the most recorded drummer in history: https://youtu.be/2NaXlmDSDcw |
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Yes, it is; the clip was meant for the OP. Timmons was a badass. |
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Yes, I have. I played it years ago under Zdenek Macal; one of my favorite little known conductors. Lovely symphony with, as you suggested, some nice clarinet writing. Doesn’t get performed nearly often enough. The opening to mvt.3 is particularly beautiful. Not exactly my favorite clarinet section in this orchestra, but the Kondrashin recording with the Concertgebouw (Phillips) is great.
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Interesting clip with the great Wayne Shorter and Wynton Marsalis’ JALC Orchestra in a tribute to the great musician. Features arrangements by band members of many of Shorter’s compositions with some really interesting commentary by Wynton about each composition’s genesis. Wayne is 87 (!) years old and certainly not at the peak of his playing ability, but still with that rare and elusive ability to pour an amazing amount of emotion and meaning into a single note. Wonderful to watch the band’s players all intently hanging on every note that this idol plays. Fantastic section playing by the band in arrangements that, with one or two exceptions, are great: https://youtu.be/Db8wyrpxdDo |
“probing, contemplative”. I like that and I agree. He has always been one of my very favorites; not only as a player, but also as a composer. It’s always been fascinating to me how his style got more and more economical through the years even though he has always had technique to spare.
Thanks for the correction re his age. A slight correction of my own, if I may. Although not quite on the same level of overall importance, but there is still a handful of greats in that general age group who thankfully are still with us:
Benny Golson, 90
Jimmy Heath, 93 (heard him lead his big band just a month ago)
George Coleman, 84
Charles Lloyd, 80
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Right you are, pjw. Nice post. Fierce tenor playing: https://youtu.be/VNCX8zVuu-IThanks for the Ted Nash clip, acman3; one of the most talented players on the scene today. https://youtu.be/cOQ9A5MEV2IGreat Wayne Shorter clips, btw. Thanks to all. Haven’t heard the new one, but it’s on the top of my list. |
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