Rok, I think you are either misrepresenting or misinterpreting what Duke said.
“There are simply two kinds of music, good music and the other kind”.
What he meant by that comment is that there is good and bad music in any genre or style. Duke was genre-neutral and much of his music reflected that.
Think about it. If that is not what he meant (as universally recognized), what would be the point of making the comment? That there is music of good quality and of bad quality is obvious. The salient point is that music is to be judged by its quality and one’s judgment of it shouldn’t be influenced by what genre the music is. The idea that “With some genres, it’s all “the other kind” is not supported by Duke’s comment. In my opinion, it’s just plain silly.
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**** Just say you prefer Eddie Harris over Grover ****
Nope. Sorry. I spelled out my criteria pretty well. The comparison to Wynton is not relevant here. Both Harris and Grover are fine instrumentalists, but Harris is the better improviser in a Jazz setting; much better command of harmony. Grover cannot play some of the material that Harris did (standards) with the same level of conviction and credibility. I like Grover, but his playing simply doesn’t have the depth that Harris’s does. His style leans much more to the Pop/Smooth Jazz side of things. In fact his album “Mister Magic” in some ways ushered in that entire genre. Jazz, especially the kind that Grover plays, is really not that abstract; hence the genre “abstract jazz” which is generally in another zone altogether as concerns abstractions. Post some Grover playing standards....if you can find any. Maybe one or two? I do like him.
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I agree. In the overall scheme of things, second tier players. Well, one of them, anyway. Grover, a tier or two lower. Harris did have a special thing. Funky as hell, but no Coltrane. |
Once again, you show your true colors, O-10. There was nothing directed at you (don’t flatter yourself) until you criticized my comment. In fact, I was supporting your appreciation of Harris. I could say much more, but it would be pointless. You really don’t know what you’re talking about. Get a life. |
pjw, you asked me for my thoughts on your three favorite guitar players:
Three great players. Also three extremely different players whose playing I admire a great deal. I say admire because I can’t honestly say that I always like (cover your eyes now, inna) MacLoughlin’s style. It’s not that I particularly dislike it, but I find his propensity for the use of those blazinginly fast note flurries to not always be my cup of tea; and not always appropriate for the style of music at hand. Sure, in the context of the high energy fusion style of Mahavishnu Orchestra from the 70s it definitely works and is very exciting, but when playing something not so high energy (acoustic) it doesn’t work for me. Still, amazing player and amazing technique. Just a personal feeling and preference. Of the three, the one with the most “jazz” chops by a long shot.
I have followed their careers to somewhat similar degrees although Beck remains for me my favorite of the three overall. Please note that I am not saying that I think he is the “best” of the three. I don’t believe in that kind of designating when you have players that play at that high a level. They each have their own voice and it becomes apples to oranges.
My point is perhaps better explained by pointing out that what they each do best, neither of the other two can do at the same level. Can you imagine Hendrix playing a duet with Paco? Or, Beck being able to get the same level of grunge and sheer R&R abandon that Hendrix could? Or McLoughlin backing Beth Hart and getting that perfect light touch and sexiness out of one note? I kind of doubt it.
While the styles of all three can be said to be informed by jazz, I would say McLoughlin’s is the most and Hendrix obviously the least. All three styles are rooted in a Rock sensibility more so than a traditional jazz sensibility, imo. In the end all three are Rock guitarists with different levels of comfort in a jazz bag or in a style leaning in that direction. For me, Beck straddles the line between the two styles the best. Very tasty player. Of course, just my opinion.
Thanks for the great clips. |
**** Why are the women allowed to strut their stuff, fashion wise, while the men are stuck with the penguin outfits? **** Well, I have a strong suspicion that mary_jo is likely to look a lot better wearing gold lame than Rok would. Consider the ensuing visual mayhem if it wasn’t ONLY the “Ladies of the orchestra: Concert Attire Memo” that read “Colorful Formal Gown” 😱. Only for some special (non-subscription) performances, btw. **** What determines the length of the pause between movements? **** The conductor decides, based on musical considerations; not unlike how fast to conduct the music itself. Of course, way too often it’s determined by the knucklehead in the audience who decides that then is the time to have a coughing or throat clearing fit; then the conductor is forced to wait. |
inna, thanks for the clips; very nice. McLaughlin’s playing on “Mila Repa” is about as restrained as I’ve ever heard from him. I liked it. I also liked “Django”, a lot. But the clips don’t change my mind about him nor how I feel about him vs Beck. For me, “Django” is a great example of what I tried to say in my response to pjw. As you pointed out, Beck plays the first solo. But Beck also plays the melody of the tune in the opening. Two notes and I could tell it was Beck. Had it been McLaughlin (without my knowing who the players were) I would not had been able to tell. That is one of the things that for me separates Beck from a lot of other players; so much personality. We all listen for different things in players and you obviously like the speed and intensity in McLaughlin’s playing. However, his solo sounds fragmented to me without enough musically logical connection between the melodic bursts that he plays. Beck’s solo has more musical coherence; more melodic connection from beginning to end. Still, neither plays over the changes of the tune with the kind of control of the harmony, nor melodic development that a great jazz player does. That may seem overly critical; but, as always, different players have different strengths, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rLWzIsT4-o0 |
pryso, your link didn’t work for me so I am reposting in case anyone else has the same issue. Great recording and very important recording. Several years ago I had the pleasure of playing a new composition for large ensemble that Ornette composed for a performance by a dance troupe. He oversaw the production and I was thrilled to get the chance to have a couple of conversations with him. I will never forget some of the interesting (some would say “off the wall”) things that he spoke of re his and music in general. My favorite comment of his was his indication to the ensemble to play one particular passage “ahead and behind the beat...at the same time”. Very unusual and brilliant musician. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OIIyCOAByDU |
Wynton at his best. That trombone solo kills. |
Not even close. Maya Plisetskaya!
First, the instrumental playing is infinitely superior on the Plisetskaya. With the Proms it gets off to a rocky start from the very beginning. The solo flute players’s rhythm sucks; it’s all over the place. The bassoon sounds very weak and like some of the notes are in danger of not coming out. It doesn’t get much better all the way to the end. On the Plisetskaya the playing is first rate (I suspect it is the Bolshoi Ballet Orchestra). I’m sure there will be disagreement about which choreography better suits the music; but for me, in spite of the attempt by the Proms to Spanishize it, the Plisetskaya is the one. |
Water under the bridge. It’s a tense and difficult time so all is forgiven 😘. A friendly reminder that the bottle of isopropyl clearly states: “For sanitizer use. Not for human consumption!” 😊 Today is the great Fats Waller’s birthday! Innovative piano player whose “Stride” playing style would lay the foundation for all modern piano styles to follow. Amazing contribution to the music. Composer of some of the most popular tunes in Jazz and charming entertainer/vocalist to boot! https://youtu.be/-7zm8v9reDohttps://youtu.be/EVDChx0HRjEhttps://youtu.be/dv2ktr-yc3ohttps://youtu.be/caR2t2H4OMg |
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“Over the top” aka “tasteless”.
Yeah, “stars galore” usually means over the top. Somebody should have told Tania Maria to not chew gum when on camera. And what’s up with Benson and those facelifts? I wonder what Herbie was really thinking? |
Well, O-10, no sense breaking the streak; since you want to keep track. The live Sarah/“Misty” wins hands down in my book. Don’t get me wrong, she can practically do no wrong in my book, but those two renditions are practically apples/oranges. The live one is jazz trio only, and far more relaxed and evocative; much more in the spirit of jazz. The studio version...just that. Studio produced; faster, with A LOT of “sweetening”, less intimate. A bit Muzak(ish); what some refer to as elevator music. Different performance environments and as always, she knows the tape is rolling. But, who can argue with Sassy?
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Rok, she’s no Dan Nimmer; you’re right. Not too bad, though; and I like her composition. What makes the piece is the arrangement by one of the biggest talents in that band, Ted Nash. One of the best solos I’ve ever heard Wynton play; completely idiomatic and creative. He sounds great on that. Thanks for that. Great band.
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O-10, there is a long history here of that kind of double standard on your part. Most times I’m in the mood to let it go by and simply say “There goes O-10 again”; sometimes I’m not. No need to escalate matters now, just as there was no need to start them. If you need to feel the way that the latter part of your comment states, I’m fine with that and would never make a similar comment; if anything, for the sake of civility. Let’s just say that the assertion is news to me now just as it was every previous time that you have felt the need to make that comment; and, in keeping with your initial premise I could not disagree more.
However, I’m always for escalating matters as concerns the discussion of the music and its details. So, just what about what I wrote re those two “Misty’s” is incorrect in your opinion and why? I welcome your thoughts, and peace. |
O-10, only for the sake of the music since there is so much there there as they say.
I don’t have a problem with nuance and feel at all. Quite the contrary; and, the discussion leading up to your comments about Sarah Vaughn are a fine example of that, had you been paying attention. Moreover, the details of nuance and feel can most definitely be put into words. Now, not being able to put those things into words is a separate matter altogether; some can and some can’t. I am not at all suggesting that the ability to put these things into words is what determines a listener’s ability to perceive them; I would never make that kind of judgment about another listener. However, since you insist on continuing to make judgmental comments of a personal nature if you open that door I may be more than willing to walk through it: You feel I have a “problem with nuance and feel” in spite of the fact that I use those very words in my posts very frequently and far more often than you do. That is your perception and I am fine with that. However, the issue as I see it is that you have a problem separating the details of your life and personal experiences as they may relate to any given music with the reality of the music in a more objective context. I’ll try it again...peace.
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Great clips, acman3. For me, one of the most interesting things about Sarah Vaughn is how the timbre of her voice changed as she aged; it deepened and got thicker sounding...a lot. All three “Misty’s” posted so far and this next one make a good example of this. The studio recording is from 1958, the live in Sweden trio version is from 1968. I could not find any date info for the clip you posted, but I would place it at around ten years later or so (1980?). This next one is from 1990, the year she passed. Each one shows a progressively deeper and thicker sounding voice. The earlier recordings sound almost as if she is singing the song in a higher key. She’s not; same key every time. Aside from the change in the timbre of her voice it is interesting how much the live recordings differ as far as interpretation and delivery. Fantastic artist. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vrc3awPUZgY |
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Inna, your observation is even more interesting than at first meets the eye. “Vaughn and Violins” and “Lift To...” were recorded six months apart and both in Paris. It is interestting that they both share a similar studio production sound typical of the era and which was due in part to the generous use of reverb. It is likely that both were both recorded in the same studio. What is verifiable is the fact that the drummer, the great Kenny Clarke who was living in Paris at the time and bassist Pierre Michelot, then the busiest bassist in Paris played on both sessions. It’s a small world in the music scene.
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O-10, will you please take a deep breath and chill out. No one is trying to “denigrate” anything. The sound of that record is what it is and is a particualr aesthetic. I will not refrain from pointing out or discussing what to me are interesting details about the music just for the sake of somehow not upsetting you or your need to win an argument. I will not walk on eggshells like that. Please hear this and put the issue to rest:
I LIKE “VAUGHN AND STRINGS”. I LIKE IT. I REALLY LIKE IT.
Is that clear enough for you? The argument which you started (as usual) was around which was the “best” of the two versions. This is something that you are always trying to do, “best” this and “best” that. When one is talking about music on such a high level there is usually no “best”; only different and appealing to the different aesthetic sense and sensibilities of different listeners. The reasons why that may be so is interesting to me and many others. It appears it is not be to you.
Btw, with respect, you really should try and learn a bit more about the role of a producer in music production. I assure you that the producer and orchestrator (Q) on that record, not Vaughn, were the primary determinants of the “sound” of that record. |
All this talk about studio recordings and pjw’s Zappa posts reminded me of one of my favorite and one of his most Zappaishly cynical tunes. His parody on the studio-musician scene (no “denigration” of Sarah intended) 😉 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=snetMOvbqRQ |
Inna, I assume you’ve heard the original version of that Inuit fol.... I mean, pop music hit. I actually like its catchy and feel good vibe: https://youtu.be/TIC9wgt4X_E |
acman3, I was intrigued by the title of Chris Roger’s tune “Whit’s End” and you may find this little factoid interesting. I know Chris from the music scene in NYC, but didn’t know much about his background. As you say, good player. There is only one “Whit” that I know that I can connect to music. So, a little internet check revealed that the Whit in the title is the same Whit Sidener that I know from my Miami days, where Chris spent some time. The same Whit Sidener who was friends with Texan Bobby Meyer who you know and Whit invited to play in his band in Miami. As I said a couple of posts ago, it’s a small world. Thanks for the clips. |
Excellent post, pryso. Of course, I agree as I said previously with what you wrote about the folly in deeming any one performance “the best”. A couple of additional points and why I sometimes find it so frustrating to try and discuss some of this. At the heart of my position is what you correctly point out: to deem something ”the best” presumes that EVERY other example of same has been experienced. Highly unlikely and usually not the case. Even more importantly, the unfortunate byproduct of this kind of grandstanding is that in taking this kind of inflexible position and personalizing it, truly interesting discussion of the details around the merits of the performances being compared don’t happen. Not only does it not happen, in trying to justify one’s position sometimes silly things get said. For instance:
**** It’s absolutely impossible for a trio to compete with that musical lineup. ****
That is such a nonsensical and silly comment. So, all those great trio and quartet performances that we have discussed here and revere are, by definition, inferior to heavily produced and orchestrated versions. Really? It’s like saying that a solo piano performance cannot possibly be better than a trio performance. Huh? This is what I wrote in response to O-10’s assertion that my choice for a good example of singer with acoustic ensemble version of “Misty” was not the best choice. Let’s remember, my comment was in response to Rok’s post of Dee Dee’s likewise acoustic version which I felt was “over the top”:
**** Don’t get me wrong, she can practically do no wrong in my book, but those two renditions are practically apples/oranges. The live one is jazz trio only, and far more relaxed and evocative; much more in the spirit of jazz. The studio version...just that. Studio produced; faster, with A LOT of “sweetening”, less intimate. A bit Muzak(ish); what some refer to as elevator music. ****
As I’ve said already, I like that recording a lot, strings sweetening and all. Simply not as much as the trio version that I posted and others like it. Apples and oranges. Moreover, not only do I generally prefer Sarah (and most jazz singers) in a trio setting, but this was a very young Sarah and I feel she became a better and more interesting singer as she matured. And incredibly (more silliness), the assertion about it being Sarah’s “best” is in comparison to a live performance that isn’t even on a record. So, with as long a career as Sarah had and the probably hundreds of times that she sang that song, THAT 1958 recording in a studio was “THE BEST” she ever sang the song. I kind of doubt it. Ironically, my favorite version of “Misty” by Sarah is on the “Live In Japan” record. I didn’t post that because it is not available on the Tube. Most music lovers have never even heard most versions besides the Vaughn/Strings, so what exactly does any of this prove?
I stand by what I wrote as shown above. No joke.
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Interesting that jpw should bring up Zappa; another fan here. I sent this to my son a couple days ago after coming across it on the Tube. Don’t necessarily agree with some of his politics, but a great insight into what was undoubtedly a great and very interesting mind, musical and otherwise: https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL16288D6466FD7EDE |
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Thank you, Schubert. Good to hear from you! Speaking of Tosca, Di Stefano, films and Al Pacino (thanks, mary_jo), that very “E lucevan le stelle” is heard in one of Pacino’s scenes in “Serpico”: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Pdc3tLmo4XMWhat a great actor Pacino is! Notice how long he takes to answer her question “Is that Bjorling?” He has to wait for, as he listens, for Di Stefano to end the phrase. How many men would wait that long to answer a beautiful woman’s question? |
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acman3, trick question, eh?
Coltrane on alto @ 4:27. Same concept, but a fifth higher.
Nice clip; and Alex’s!
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Good to hear from you , Ghosthouse. Don’t be a stranger.
And thanks for the great clip. My budds! |
Interesting Hammond history pryso, thanks! Love the Hammond B3. The account about the shootout in which 1/3 in the panel of “experts” couldn’t tell the difference between the Hammond and a pipe organ made me chuckle and reminded me of the infamous Henry Kloss demo where the “experts” couldn’t tell the difference between the Kloss speakers and a live string quartet (?)....yah!
Back around 1980 or so, Yamaha introduced the soon to be ubiquitous DX7 synth. The first digital synth, it was compact and offered a tremendous number of sound options for the keyboard player; just about every pop and jazz-fusion band on the planet used one. It was considered to have a “better B3 sound than the B3”. Huh!? Never could understand that comment. If it is a “better” sound then it’s no longer the B3 sound, no? Shades of “Perfect Sound Forever”....sure!
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-Stax ELS F81 electrostatics; amazingly natural midrange, beast to drive.
-Paragon “Regent” transmission line for when I get frustrated with the Stax’s bass limitations. Would never give up the Stax, haven’t heard a more realistic midrange.
In the basement, not used for a very long time: KLH9 electrostatics and very heavily modified Magneplanar MG3A’s from my pre-kids days when I had time to spend inhaling solder flux fumes (may explain a thing or two 😉); in need of repair that I keep telling myself I’ll get to someday.
Like Sonus Fabers a lot, Alex. |
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From the first clip that I posted above, I wanted to recommend in particular the great and very interesting interview (@10:40) with George Russell about his musical concepts and the (then) future of jazz. He touches upon many of the subjects and players that have been discussed on this thread. Highly recommended and with some great music!
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Glad you guys liked them. Hey, just one of those rare instances when my poor taste in music didn’t get the best of me, O-10 😄
And how about that Jimmy Cleveland?! There’s someone we’ve overlooked; he sounds wonderful. |
True, mary_jo. I try and not lose sight of the humor of it all. And, you’re right, “cosa nostra” is actually a good analogy. The one who wants to be the capo de tutti capos the most is the one who demands the most “respect”, claims the most “authority” and is often the most “devout” Christian and Church goer; and yet is the one quickest to order the hits on those who he knows are on to him 🤫 https://youtu.be/2X9E9n6GHC8 |
Curious, Alex, how can one tell who a deleted post is from? I’ve often been curious of the same thing myself.
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Got it, thanks. Luddite that I am I don’t use any “extra” Agon features. |
Great clips, mary_jo. Lovano is one of my favorite current tenor players. Rather unique for a contemporary player in that he shows little or obvious Coltrane influence; more Rollins and Henderson. And, Joey Barron! What a great drummer and one who doesn’t get mentioned much. Thanks for those. Btw, in case anyone cares, in the picture on the “Tenor Time” album he is playing a straight (!) tenor; a bit of an oddity. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9ngZFRisurUOn a more serious note: Another favorite tenor player and even more favorite composer from one of my favorite albums: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hi6nOr9MIqIhttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=evpn_2OhCes |
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**** I do not think Joe Lovano sounds like John Coltrane (JMHO) ****
**** Rather unique for a contemporary player in that he shows little or obvious Coltrane influence; more Rollins and Henderson. ****
Glad you liked the Cleveland clips, that set of septet/octet recordings is on the way.
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pjw, rare gem indeed! Thanks for posting that. One of my very favorite things on all of YouTube which has been posted here a couple of times before. That is such a great example of, and touches on so much of what gets talked about here: two totally different and equally valid stylistic approaches to the same music. Gotta love YouTube! |
Rok, you should know better than that. Having said that, I should probably have known that you don’t know better than that.
If you are having an issue with someone, or something he/she posted, keep me out of it; that was your first mistake. I challenge you to find and post one, one single example of a time that I wrote something that could remotely be construed as being insulting that was not in response to someone else’s (usually you, or....well, I’ll practice what I just preached) clearly insulting comment or attack. A disagreement about the music is not an “insult”; unwarranted personal attacks and comments on a music forum about a participant’s musical tastes are. As is referring to someone else’s musical offering as “noise”; even if it is to you.
Now, before you lash out again, please consider the hypocrisy and double standard that your post demonstrates; unfortunately, not an isolated instance. You are correct, I don’t need anyone’s “protection”; as you say, “no sacred cows here” (something that ALL should remember). So, why are you protecting someone else? Or, at the very least, USING someone else to attack someone that you may have your own issue with. Or, looked at a different way, if what you unfortunately advocate is true (and I couldn’t disagree more)...
**** People here pretty much say what they want. Don’t like it, move on. ****
....is that the sound of the door shutting behind you that I hear? Can’t have it both ways.
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Very nice Ike Quebec clips; thanks! Fans of Quebec may also like this tenor player. A contemporary of Quebec they both played with a somewhat similar style rooted in the Swing tradition more so than bop. Both had a big robust tone although Jimmy Forrest, to my ears, sounded a little more contemporary and with less breathiness in his tone. The first tune on this record is the theme song for Newark’s (Quebec’s birthplace, coincidentally) WBGO Jazz 88.3 FM’s “The Blues Hour” show. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cFNc3D_kCi4 |
