Jazz for aficionados

Nice!

Yes! John Park on “Street Of Dreams” is amazing. I can’t believe I had never heard that cut. Just great. What a fantastic player! Thanks for that.

pryso, excellent post. “like an onion”; I like that and very apt. Why KOB remains popular is, for me, twofold. Its importance in shaping the direction of jazz is one and that doesn’t need any more documenting since so much has been written about that and the reasons why it did. The second reason is, imo, that in spite of the fact that “It’s not funky, doesn’t include a driving beat or something make the listener want to get up and dance. ”, the music is actually quite accessible. The harmonic simplicity of the modal tunes actually make it very accessible to the listener; as do the likewise “simple” melodies. An interesting byproduct of a compositional approach (modal) intended to give the soloist much more creative freedom of expression. That is part of the brilliance of the record; it has made for an easy introduction to “serious” jazz for many. Melodies and harmonic changes don’t get much simpler than that of “So What”, for instance. I would add a possible third reason to the mix. The interest in audiophile quality reissues which began about forty years ago or so put that record in the limelight again. The instrumental playing is, of course, as good as it gets.

Man, talk about straw man arguments (to use a popular phrase of yours); they abound in this discussion.  To reiterate what pryso pointed out, no one has claimed that KOB is the best ever; only that some here prefer it over SE.  Would be so much more positive and productive (and pleasant) if there were more focus in these discussions. Old story, I guess.  Speaking of old stories:

**** Let’s not forget the audience and / or marketplace in all of this. In the end, they decide. And they decided **** - rok2id

KOB: best selling jazz album of all time.  4 million copies sold.  5000 copies per week continue to be sold.  

pjw, did you see this?:

https://www.discogs.com/sell/release/4193584?ev=rb

In the meantime:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U1Pj9-3DDTc

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CSxRz1JjhYc

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=czW55U8-3mY

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iQO4n9pXWYM

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MqAwBq5wtlk

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vxDJQKFEtVs

Beautiful alto player!

Excellent!

Pretty good faking by Newman (actual tenor by the great Paul Gonsalves):

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UKGev0mYlvc

Another Larry Willis (and Fort Apache Band) fan here.  Thanks for the links and heads up about the 10/20 gig, pjw; I just may check it out myself.

One very funky dude:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ovMrlJroXcY

I find that request to be in bad form.  As always, hoping for reasonable dialogue; even if in disagreement.

Fabulous, acman3.  Billy Higgins!!!!!! Anyone who doesn’t like drum solos should listen to that.  I asked myself, “why would Cedar Walton be announcing the tunes when it’s a Sam Jones date?”.  That tune, as you know, was a bonus track on the CD reissue from an earlier Cedar Walton trio record.  Interesting.

The original lp.  One of my all time favorite bands.  A very young Bob Berg; what a loss.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JF9gsXC9IeE

Btw, I think you lowered Rok’s blood pressure several points with that post; nicely done 😉

Hey, no apology necessary; it is in fact on the Sam Jones reissue and is a Sam Jones tune. There’s often a lot of ambiguity and cinflicting info re recording dates and reissues; always surprises me.  What a great player Sam Jones was; truly one of the greats.  And great composer!  Two of his best known tunes:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vAdE3pLlMFQ

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rJuEk0J-7Mc

Unusual in jazz, along with Ron Carter, he was also a fine cellist:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mX4RhGL7zqA

Great Buster Williams clips! Let’s not forget his work with the band “Sphere”. Imagine a tribute band named after a great musician with the middle name Sphere (!!) which recorded its debut album on the very day that he (Monk) died....without being aware of that sad fact.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d0E6SVMsm90

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RHNZ5ZJR_MM

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=m2U_4UL_Pz4

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_1_OuG6jfJk

Pryso, I knew that Monk had adopted his middle name Sphere, but did not know about the connection with Speer.  What parent would make a child “Sphere”, after all?  Then again, we do have Moon Unit and Dweezil.  Zappa’s oldest daughter escaped being named Motörhead when Mom objected, so they decided on something more normal....Diva Muffin.

“make”= name

Interesting discussion about Armenian and other ethnic musics; thanks for that.  For me personally some of the posted music strikes me as “ethnic-lite” with the use of modern electronic instruments (non-traditional) and an overall “World Music” vibe; kind of what Smooth Jazz is to Straight Ahead jazz.   Just a personal feeling/preference.  

Traditional Armenian folk music is particularly insteresting.  As Inna alluded, it is based on a tonal system very different from that of the European tradition which is what our ears are more accustomed to.  It does not have the same and more familiar sense of tension/release that we are used to.  

This is a young Armenian artist who has been getting a lot of attention.  Fantastic piano player and composer who brings those Armenian folk music roots to his compositions and playing with music that looks forward instead of backwards.  Whatever one wants to call his music, this guy can play.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pVN36Ou4BUU

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-6R4kCQk6XA

Interesting how there can be disagreement about something when there is truth to both sides of the argument.  What is being missed is the connection to the earlier (barely) discussion about the mystery of the influence that genetics may play on what type of music resonates with each of us.

One of the first and recurring debates here concerns the origins of jazz. One camp claims that, contrary to just about every scholarly and pacticing musician’s opinion on the subject, jazz sprang up in America independent of and immune to any possible influence by the ethnicity (genetics) of its “creators”, or influence by the societal circumstances around them. The other camp believes that jazz is an art form that is a big melting pot of influences; African, European and Middle Eastern. A closer, and less emotional, look at what defines jazz gives credence to the second viewpoint, imo.

Django Reindhart famously said, upon hearing Louis Armstrong play for the first time (as acman3 points out) “My brother!”. To my way of thinking that comment says it all. If one looks at the makeup of Jazz and the many influences that came to bear in its creation, it is no mystery to me why jazz would resonate with a Gypsy guitarist who had never heard “it” before, but whose more familiar music was in some ways, however removed, one of the ingredients in the pot.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IW0nOgrwwy4

And, of course Armstrong would have been impressed upon hearing Django for the first time. For starters, no one had played guitar like that before.

Funny how we tend to see what we want to see, and ignore what doesn’t fit our political agenda. From the same Wiki article:

**** all linked by the common bonds of African-American and European-American musical parentage ****

Parentage:

a : descent from parents or ancestors : lineage

And, as with most Wiki articles, this is just scratching the surface. Btw, the person who was “right” (Not!), was the same person who incessantly ridiculed the person who was “wrong” (Not!) for being foolish enough to quote a Wiki article. I hereby hand over the coveted and previously held title of “Wikiman” 😊

inna, the quote is:

”If you have to ask what jazz is, you’ll never know” - Louis Armstrong

Btw, not at all surprised that you thought Hamasyan’s playing was “gibberish”, given what your tastes seem to be. Maybe next time.

And who is it that has “left” the thread a few times huffing and puffing due to disagreement? 😖

https://youtu.be/jKPbB-C0qjQ

Rok, nonsense, find me and post ONE reference from a credible source to the notion that “black musicians never criticized other musicians when asked to comment”. Musicians have always been each other’s toughest critics. Rok, you make stuff up to support your personalized and very rigid notions of, among other things, the history of this music. I realize you have anointed yourself a “world renowned authority on jazz” and are unwilling to change your views about any of this, but a lot of what you espouse is simply not true. Every credible writer and/or historian on these topics, not to mention musicians, have a different viewpoint from yours and yet we are supposed to consider the views of someone who can’t (or won’t) even grasp the concept of influence in music. I see. You like to rewrite history almost as much as arguing about it; including the history of the “pouting episodes”. Try posting music instead of antagonizing. And, please, we don’t need the same clips for the third, fourth or more times.

O-10, you are correct, we are all entitled to our tastes in music, but not to our “tastes” in the history of it; or other aspects of it which are well documented and/or factual..

**** Show me ONE example of a big time black Jazz player making negative comments about a white player, when asked to comment by a media or Jazz critic type. Just ONE example. ****

Easy!

####
(Leonard) Feather (for Downbeat):

It was Don Ellis. Have you ever heard him?

(Miles) Davis:

Yeah, I heard him. He’s no soloist. I mean, he’s a nice guy and all that, but to me he’s just another white trumpet player. He can’t play in a chord, can’t play with any feeling; that’s the reason I guess they use all that time s&it.

####

Let me know if you need more.

It’s alright, Rok; straight ahead.  I have no illusions about your willingness to recognize that your “truth(fullness”) is just that...yours, and yours only.  I could offer other references in further rebuttal, but it would be pointless.  What has been striking for me since this thread’s inception is how its possible for an individual to go year after year alienating others that he interacts with and never appear to contemplate the possibility that maybe, just maybe, there is a problem at his end; either with his views, his social interaction skills, or both.  Anyway, as I said, straight ahead.  Peace.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hnLO1iqQjp8

Birelli Lagrene is a Django disciple who, as the above shows, is actually much more than that.  Very versatile guitar player who can play just about any style.  His Django “”hot jazz” thing is great:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RCMvIBVpy8s

Tap dancing, anyone?

I don’t have a problem with your reaction eventhough I don’t agree with it in the least, but what is the point of making a comparison to Mr. DATA if it is not applicable to Lagrene?

True. Amazing how much Django could say with just two fingers. On the other hand (pun) one can say a great deal with just one. I think Django still had the use of that one 😉

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ308aOOX04

So, Rok, what will you be teaching.....in English?  

Great!

Great clips!  Thanks.  And what a blast from the past!  I was there for that date at the Vanguard!  I’m showing my age.  Had just moved to Fla to go to college and was back in NY for a family wedding and a HS buddy took me to hear Dexter on his big return from Europe.  Fantastic night.  

One of my very favorite trumpet players with a very distinctive style that always struck me as “saxophonic”.  Almost Coltranish in the way he used a lot of wide intervals in his phrases; less linear than most other trumpet players.  I posted this a while back; Kenny Garrett sounds wonderful:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QNLLFmGL6y0

On the Blakey big band clip (great!), besides the featured players I recognized:
Trumpets:  Randy Brecker, Mike Mossman
Bones: Robin Eubanks, Slide Hampton 
Saxophones: Bobby Watson, Billy Pierce, George Adams, Jimmy Heath (?)

pjw, I figured out why your recording (I have the original lp) doesn’t include “You’ve Changed”.  At first I thought that the clip you posted may have been a bootleg and the reason it wasn’t on the record.  The answer is that I made an error in thinking it was from the Vanguard date that I attended and was recorded for the Columbia, “Homecoming” lp.  As the info for your clip shows, it was from a Village Gate date a few weeks earlier.  My bad.  I had completely forgotten about that record from the Village Gate date.  The Village Gate has been gone for a long time; out of sight, out of mind I guess.  Great and legendary place, though.  The last time I was there was to catch Nat Adderly’s group shortly before it shut down.

Btw, Woody Shaw and Freddie Hubbard recorded two albums together.  “The Eternal Triangle” and “Double Take”.  The clip I posted (”The Moontrane”) is from the lp “The Eternal Triangle”.  The album cover pic with my clip is of the rerelease of the two as a double album.

The original “The Eternal Triangle” with original cover art:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WTpho8u0_Gc&list=PLyHn3f7-9IUJ6s13cKFFG-5BdBOZXJmYi&t=0s&i...

The original “The Moontrane”, title tune on Shaw’s earlier solo lp.  In some ways I like it even better than the version with Freddie; slightly slower and relaxed:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tgjTnRcxOJA

One of my favorite versions of the great tune from one of the greatest little known records.  “Unity”, Larry Young, Elvin Jones, Woody Shaw, Joe Henderson.  NOT the original cover art:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IwOIVQVVhwg

Another from that same record with correct cover art:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GYQNsuzMXiQ

Btw, I agree with the reviewer re Tal Wilkenfeld.  I know her from her work with Jeff Beck and I don’t get the appeal.  Even her time keeping is just ok.  And, in the company of a tone master like Beck, even her tone is bland.  As you say, he champions young players and I’m sure she’ll continue to grow.

**** How did we get from this, to ’Stellar Regions’. ****

Along with “influence”, another concept that you will teach in your Jazz Appreciation 101 course (in English, of course)...”evolution”.

**** Since this is a musical contest, ****

Explains a great deal.  😊 Joke, O-10.

pjw, The Allmans were my favorite rock band all through HS and beyond. Their love of Jazz was one of the most intriguing things in Allman lore and their sound reflected it.  Interesting that KOB was a favorite record, but not surprising since it was KOB that opened the door to modal improvisation for many Jazz players. The whole idea of modal improvisation was to free the player from the constraints of complicated chord changes and allow extended improvisation over a single chord; precisely what Plant describes about Duane’s playing.

Great Jeff Beck clip. One of the most expressive players on any instrument. One of those players who could say so much with a single note. Check out his playing on this; a model of simplicity when some other player would be playing a million notes (just ignore Barack’s bad rhythm in his “grooving”. Who woulda thunk?):

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fALdOkf_eCM

Dee Dee sounds good on ”All Blues”; but a little too much affectation for me.  In my book this is the one:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iOwgPEQbgkQ

If there’s one very important (and, yes, influential....extremely) player who hasn’t gotten enough attention here it has got to be Lester Young:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fPHj9uNZOgk&list=PL4ypuAMic-GhO9negHTY3ZNPjMXL6ZQaO&index=2&am...

**** Ray Nance on Trumpet and Violin!!!   wtf! ****

Old school thing.  It was not terribly unusual for wind players (although usually reed players) to double on a string instrument back in the day.  Nice clip.

Great clips.  Love Betty Carter!  Very unusual singer.  A favorite record with a favorite piano player who we sadly lost recently.  Killer rhythm section:

https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLr6i6H4_tzQV5C3cBrcCHqArLJmQBlgy-

Hah!  Memories.  Great tune.  With Duane and a 21 (!) year old Greg Allman.  Not at all bad for a bunch of young Southern boys:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=szdKx9O31A0

Speaking of wealth of riches, more riches. We’ve heard Pres with Oscar Peterson and Pres with Nat Cole. Here he is with another great piano player who has gotten short shrift here, the great Teddy Wilson:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tDesCGeGLL4

Quiz time:

The clip starts with four seconds of some other music. Who can identify it?

I love Eddie Harris. I put Harris in the same very broad category of tenor players as Grover Washington Jr......only much better and far more interesting. No dig on Grover; I like his playing. Their playing shines on funky, groove based tunes and both have a softer edged tone concept than the Coltrane influenced approach of most post-50’s tenor players. No “Giant Steps” for either player, but Harris sounded much more credible improvising on tunes with complex harmonies as opposed to the repetitive vamps of most funk tunes.

Speaking of Harris and of Miles, Harris’ best known composition was popularized by Miles:

https://youtu.be/yJ11cArknek

The original:

https://youtu.be/kf7FB4ilX5w

That unique tone which on ballads sometimes sounds to me like Paul Desmond on tenor:

https://youtu.be/xU8uitaeFQw

Plays standards (great rhythm section):

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLyHn3f7-9IULB7-S8nQbAgubB7mTkSUSG

His comfort zone:

https://youtu.be/CsHtO_i4qzM

Ding, ding, ding!!!  We have a winn....!  Well, almost.

mary_jo is correct; it is Miles.  Excellent!  However, the question was who can identify the music; not just the player?  Aside from the sound of Miles’ trumpet, the music and the way it was recorded has a very distinctive vibe which was an immediate giveaway for me.  

Hint 1: That music was recorded somewhere geographically closer to mary_jo’s stomping grounds than to the USA.

Hint 2:  “5th floor, ladies’ lingerie!” 😊

**** Why didn’t she come back in after the trumpet solo. Seems like something is missing. Part of the tune left off. ****

I get what you mean, but it’s simple; it’s the chosen arrangement. Dealer’s choice, so to speak. I suppose we’re used to having a vocalist sing to the end of the arrangement, but that is certainly not always the case. She sings the song (lyrics) in its entirety; there is no more to the lyrics than what she sings. For her to sing again after the trumpet solo would mean she would have to repeat some of what she already sang, or write new lyrics; not a good option in either case. In fact, they used the old Count Basie arrangement with the addition of an extended trumpet solo toward the end. THAT is probably why you had the reaction that something was missing. The trumpet solos for several choruses followed by the band’s final ensemble statement to finish the tune which makes it all seem like an eternity since the vocalist last sang. This is Basie’s original recording of the same arrangement, but without the long trumpet solo at the end; we don’t miss the vocalist nearly as much:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WEua4jhCBRo

Hope that was enough “agenda” for you 😊

We have a (co)winner!

pryso, that’s it!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Wc4tT-55ZzI

I think Beth Hart is great. Soulful, and very sexy! Glad you enjoyed that.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bOQ07fVVDJQ

Fabulous.  Probably my favorite diva.  Check out her Schubert lieder.  How’s this for sounding and looking gorgeous? 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_IzI0vn8egw

No, just rolling of the “r” on the word “rufen”.  

Welcome to the thread bebopperaz. Dexter has been very well covered here; a few times. Great compilation record, “Ballads”.

Having a tough time believing that you are suggesting that Malmsteen is a better player than Beck.  We all have different tastes and there’s no accounting for taste; but, let’s see....

Beck: beautifully nuanced expression, great control and variety of tone, tasteful and overall great musicianship with a lot of subtlety.

Malmsteen: bombastic, gratuitous speed with a technique that is not clean, no nuance or variety of tone; what players call a “thrasher” (and that hair! 😳)

Nice Nino de Pura, ‘though.  Thanks for that.

Not a whole lot I could say about Monk that hasn’t been said many times over; I think “genius” pretty much covers it.  Very eccentric piano playing, but genius.  

Wonderful clips acman3, enjoyed everyone one.  Biggest surprise was Toshiko’s; probably the best thing by her that I’ve heard.  Can’t say I have heard everything she’s done, but I’ve heard plenty and she always left me kinda cold.  That was great!  Beautiful Segovia.

Without a doubt our tastes in music are a reflection of personality traits. The way I see it, one of the most difficult things for most people to do is to be comfortable “in the gray”; there is a tendency to want things to be either black or white...so to speak. The same idea applies in our personal search for a sense of identity; especially as we enter adulthood. I think researchers put individuals into three basic categories when researching this subject: “empathisers””, “systemisers” and those who are comfortable in the middle (the gray). Empathisers tend to like mellow sounding music and systemisers tend to like music that is more aggressive or more complex and complicated such as modern or avant-garde jazz; the group in the middle (the gray) tend to be reluctant to draw those lines and are more genre-neutral.

Not meaning to get too personal and this is not about judgment in any way. Alex, your comment “like children trying to be adults” is particularly interesting to me and suggests an extremely defined and “serious” sense of what being and adult means to you. As a parent of two children (one now an adult) one of the greatest personal positives of having children has been for me how it serves to pull me back to that kind of wide-eyed, non-judgmental attitude about certain things; the “gray”. Music is one of those things. I generally love being around children. Does this make me less of an adult? I hope not 🤪. You have often mentioned that you are very keyed in to the “sound” of your music and you seem to prefer the mellower sounds of West Coast jazz and others. I regret giving away my Allman Bros. records years ago when, as I got into music that I felt was “more serious”; I started to feel that the music was not “sophisticated” (adult) enough. When I listen to some of that music now I realize that some of it was pretty darn good music by any standard. Certainly not all of it has stood the test of time for me, but there is certainly a lot of jazz that for me is at a lower level of overall musical value; eventhough jazz is, overall, a preferred genre. I would encourage you to not give your records away (sorry, pjw), you never know.

Pryso, thanks for Monk’s “Dinah”. I hadn’t listened to that record for some time eventhough it’s a favorite, I love Monk’s “stride” playing ; great left hand.

I’m sure you know that your clip is actually Take 2 from the session. The reissue which I have includes alternate takes of some of the tunes. I always find it interesting how and why an artist may decide which “take” to put on the record. This example is interesting in that Take 1, which was not chosen for the original release, is actually a technically cleaner version. Monk was not known for the kind of flawless technique that other players have and sometimes one hears some “flubbing” of phrases as in Take 2. However, Take 2 sounds more “Monkish”; a little more percussive with even more of his quirky time feel and more accentuating of those great and unexpected dissonances from his right hand. Take 1 also sounds a little be-bopish toward the end; obviously not what Monk (or the producer) wanted. Some folks don’t like alternate takes on records. I think they are fascinating.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PRzIgAbxlsg

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x2RTXiMuuHc

Which version would other aficionados have chosen?

Not that simple. Depends on what exactly about the various “things” you are talking about, There is a lot of commonality in all music in spite of the obvious differences. Those who don’t get that are just scratching the surface; it’s much easier (and comforting) the other way.

pjw, I’ll comment on the guitarists a little later today. Why apologize?  Well said.  

I’ll give it a shot.

Ce soir je t’ai perdu, perdu
Je n’avais plus que toi
Ce soir je t’ai perdu, ô perdu
Mise à nue, j’ai froid sans toi, sans toi
————
Tonight I lost you
I had nothing else besides you
Tonight I lost you, lost you
Laid bare, I am cold without you, without you

Inna, I think you are more of a romantic than I thought 😍

Here’s an interesting question:

You’ve just gone on a hot date and, as you said earlier, you’re feeling romantic and sense an opportunity. After a wonderful dinner out you say: “Hey, baby, do you want to come up to my place and check out my lp collection?” She agrees and goes back to your place. You want to set the mood. You slap an lp on the table. Which lp do you suppose will better help you get to “third base”; or further if you’re really good? One of your ten copies of Mahavishnu Orchestra “Birds Of Fire”, or Oscar Peterson playing “Moanin” (your ultimate goal, after all) ? 😊