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Jazz for aficionados
Jazz for aficionados
I'm going to review records in my collection, and you'll be able to decide if they're worthy of your collection. These records are what I consider "must haves" for any jazz aficionado, and would be found in their collections. I wont review any record that's not on CD, nor will I review any record if the CD is markedly inferior. Fortunately, I only found 1 case where the CD was markedly inferior to the record.
Our first album is "Moanin" by Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers. We have Lee Morgan , trumpet; Benney Golson, tenor sax; Bobby Timmons, piano; Jymie merrit, bass; Art Blakey, drums.
The title tune "Moanin" is by Bobby Timmons, it conveys the emotion of the title like no other tune I've ever heard, even better than any words could ever convey. This music pictures a person whose down to his last nickel, and all he can do is "moan".
"Along Came Betty" is a tune by Benny Golson, it reminds me of a Betty I once knew. She was gorgeous with a jazzy personality, and she moved smooth and easy, just like this tune. Somebody find me a time machine! Maybe you knew a Betty.
While the rest of the music is just fine, those are my favorite tunes. Why don't you share your, "must have" jazz albums with us.
Enjoy the music.
I'm going to review records in my collection, and you'll be able to decide if they're worthy of your collection. These records are what I consider "must haves" for any jazz aficionado, and would be found in their collections. I wont review any record that's not on CD, nor will I review any record if the CD is markedly inferior. Fortunately, I only found 1 case where the CD was markedly inferior to the record.
Our first album is "Moanin" by Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers. We have Lee Morgan , trumpet; Benney Golson, tenor sax; Bobby Timmons, piano; Jymie merrit, bass; Art Blakey, drums.
The title tune "Moanin" is by Bobby Timmons, it conveys the emotion of the title like no other tune I've ever heard, even better than any words could ever convey. This music pictures a person whose down to his last nickel, and all he can do is "moan".
"Along Came Betty" is a tune by Benny Golson, it reminds me of a Betty I once knew. She was gorgeous with a jazzy personality, and she moved smooth and easy, just like this tune. Somebody find me a time machine! Maybe you knew a Betty.
While the rest of the music is just fine, those are my favorite tunes. Why don't you share your, "must have" jazz albums with us.
Enjoy the music.
Showing 50 responses by frogman
What is it about human nature that causes some of us to see only what we want to see in order to buttress our personal points of view? Why, in spite of all the great advances in medicine, life expectancy, personal liberties, general world wide standard of living and on and on, do some of us insist on seeing the present state of affairs as so much worse than in the past? Of course real problems still exist and there still is much room for improvement; but, really?! I would like to read a good answer to why it is meaningful and/or fruitful to continually decry the death of jazz (as anyone of us might define it), the whole while putting down and shutting ourselves off to potentially great music simply because it is different stylistically from what is our personal musical comfort zone; especially in the face of the obvious time proven and verifiable tendency of jazz to evolve. Just what is accomplished other than to stroke our personal ego for being so “uncompromising”; especially when so many others feel differently and make an informed case for a different viewpoint? No other than the great Duke Ellington said that he didn’t like the word “jazz” because it is so limiting. This is all such a tired argument here that it almost doesn’t deserve any further comment. There is actually little that is “interesting” about the use of the term “improvised music” in pryso’s linked article. That is a term that is used by some jazz heads to refer to simply “jazz”; there is no other real or implied meaning or suggestion. The reason some use that term is simple: contrary to a recent assertion here improvisation is one of the most (if not the) most important elements in jazz....and it sounds kind of hip, like actresses now referring to themselves as “actors”. Now, one could argue that it is bad use of the term since it is true that not all improvised music is jazz. However, in the context of that article this is what is meant. Btw, one use of the term “improvised music”....over fifty uses of the term “jazz” in the article. Me thinks we are seeing what we want to see 😎 On a different note, a friend’s recent interest in the clarinet reminded me of this clip which I listened to recently. One of the greatest players on the instrument today and a freak of nature technically. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O_JkhFuzEoo Speaking of Duke and the clarinet: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ej29CkjSt-4 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dkgTv8M_yj0 |
Swinging amoebas? 😄 Kinda silly comparison/analogy if you ask me and with all due respect. I realize you won’t agree and that you think he says these things because of political pressure (Not!), but your man Wynton himself will tell you that the earliest roots of jazz are the influence of things like the European music tradition and African rhythms; with a dash of things like Irish reels and Middle Eastern chants thrown in. The musical soup; or, more geographically appropriate, the gumbo. Those are the amoebas of jazz; the common origin. Those happened way before Jelly Roll. Homo sapien has been around for about 500, 000 years.....jazz, for about 100. We are still calling homo sapien “man”. Talk to me in half a million years and let’s see where “jazz” is at then; and “man” for that matter. **** Same with improvising noise makers, and Jazz players. The differences are just too great. They no longer have anything in common. There is no longer any audible connection. **** I don’t want to believe that you really can’t hear any “audible connection” and that you honestly believe they “don’t have anything in common”. If you really believe that then either you don’t want to hear it or......So, in order to not do what happens in this thread all too often: lack of focus, chest thumping and talking in circles while usually not being really sure what the other person is saying, which “noise makers” exactly are you referring to? Surely, you can’t be referring to ALL the examples of new jazz posted here. Are you saying, by extension, that there is no audible connection between your fave Ludwig and Igor? Same principles apply. Please post a couple of new things that were previously posted that you consider to have no audible connection to classic jazz. Make your case so that it stands (in court) 😊 ——— The Ellington band having fun. **** He composed music that was not Jazz, and he did not call it Jazz. **** Some wonderful footage in this clip sequence. Sounds like jazz to me: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Iw_MpMTbj7I You recently mentioned a possible comparison of Duke’s and Basie’s band. Lots and lots to mention re differences in overall vibe as well as the specific details. pryso is a Basiephile and I would love to hear his as well as everyone’s thoughts on this topic. I think it would be very interesting and might expose some to this really important music. To get the ball rolling using this clip here’s an interesting and unusual specific. The sound of Duke’s reed section was very “bottom heavy” (a good thing in this case). The great Harry Carney’s presence in the sound of the section was very prominent with his huge sound and he even sometimes had the written “lead”; very unusual in big band wrtiting. Duke (and Strayhorn) orchestrated very much with each player’s musical personality in mind. |
Rok, this is what I mean about lack of focus. Of all the possible examples of new jazz that have been posted here you choose as an example that Charles Lloyd clip; something which is more in the category of world music/fusion; or something like that. That type of music would be the last thing I would think of as an example of new jazz although I suspect I know who posted it. So, what does it prove? I don’t suppose the music of Brad Meldau, or Fred Hersch, or Pat Metheny, or Seamus Blake, or Joe Lovano, or Dave Douglas, or any number of others crossed your mind? |
Very funky tenor player, McMurray. I like his attitude. New to me, Thanks! Was listening to this today and it occurred to me that this tenor player has not been even been mentioned here (I think). How is it possible that John Gilmore has never even been mentioned? One of Trane’s influences and what a great tenor sound! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H6JFiXeoqcA With Blakey and Lee Morgan. Wonderful footage: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=s53kWQSWidI |
Thanks for the clips, O-10. I remember the first time I heard “Enlightenment” and being shocked at how “mainstream” and beautiful that cut is; not at all what I was expecting from Sun Ra. Ra was without a doubt one of the most unusual and interesting personalities in jazz; many would say a genius. He always kept you guessing. That is Pat Patrick featured on baritone on the cut, btw, Gotta love his sense of humor: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v7seJ8O13a4 |
Fun. Reminded me of this for some reason. From one of the strangest films I’ve ever seen; and animated to boot: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X-KChYBFiB0&index=2&list=PLU4p_ynZ6GCtCC-i1-oMD3ylWu6z9DYSM&am... |
The music is wonderful. I found it strangely dark the second time around. Courtesy of my son: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h61QG4s0I3U |
Nice clips, mary_jo. Really liked the David Benoit clip. Really nice feel. Not very familiar with his stuff, so glad to hear it. The tenor player on the classic Pink Panther is the great Plas Johnson. One of my favorite tenor tones. https://youtu.be/_9FVQVVbjUY |
****You people are not Jazz aficionados at all. If you were, you would post some Jazz, at least every now and then. You are ruining this thread.**** Last two days: O-10, Alex, Acman, pryso, mary_jo, frogman: Duke Ellington, Benny Goodman, John Gilmore, Freddie Hubbard, Art Blakey, Lee Morgan, Sun Ra, David Benoit, Plas Johnson, Clifford Jordan, Roy Hargrove, McCoy. Rok: Bach, Baroque duet 😊 |
Fabulous! I recently almost posted some Chestnut as an example of piano player with “soul”, but decided to leave the subject alone. Mahogany sounds wonderful. In case anyone didn’t pick up on it, the “tune” is lyrics added to Bird’s famous solo on “Parker’s Mood”. Thanks for the clip; this one I’m buying. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6Wa7El-k3jQ |
There was an interesting study done a few years ago that showed that what makes a player’s tone recognizable to a listener the most is what in audio might be referred to as the “leading edge” of a note. In music, the way a player starts the note. If you record a musician playing one single note and then electronically remove the start (leading edge) of the note it then becomes very difficult to tell that player’s tone apart from another’s. Of course, when listening to a player making music the player’s style is recognizable by much more than tone. Still, interesting. Imagine Brubeck’s “Take Five” with Eric Dolphy on alto instead of Desmond 😱 |
Rok, in Classical music a “Fantasy” (usually seen as “Fantaisie” in French or ”Fantasie” in German) is a musical work written in the style of, or meant to convey the feeling of, an improvisation. One of the key ways that a composer tries to achieve this is by not adhering to traditional “forms”. The composition then doesn’t follow many of the traditional compositional “rules” and so it conveys a sense of freedom. However, there is no actual improvisation and it is entirely pre-composed. As with all Classical works there is still much room for personal interpretation and expression in the performance. In Jazz there is, as we all know, spontaneous improvisation (spontaneous composition). However, unless we are talking about “free jazz”, the improvisation follows the “rules” of the specific form and harmonic chord progression of the tune. One of the most important aspects of the concept of “evolution” in jazz has been that the more modern the jazz the more those rules were broken or certainly stretched; particularly in the realm of harmony or the way (note choices) that players improvise over each harmonic change (chord) of a tune. |
“Beauty is in the eye of the beholder”. Likewise, “chaos” is in the ear of the listener. The problem with generalities is that there will inevitably be examples to debunk them. Not only are good examples of free jazz, in fact, improvisation, they are the ultimate expression of improvisation since they do away with the constraints of traditional form and harmony. Isn’t freedom in self expression supposed to be one of the main tenets of jazz? Please notice I said “ultimate” and not “best”. What is best is too personal and limited by the listener’s own sensibilities, sense of inquisitiveness and willingness to be challenged by art. Our personal limitations in those regards don’t apply to anyone but ourselves. In good examples of free jazz even if the traditional ideas of form and harmony are done away with, there is still interaction between musicians, development of ideas, tension/release, etc. and many other things that characterize jazz improvisation. Moreover, and especially for listeners who are tuned in to social issues and change, the relevance of free jazz in that context is huge and definitely worth learning about. One of the most important recordings that pointed the way: https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLVOYDgXAn1KLppLy-ZWM9DfEFPsX2u6MM |
**** One of the most important recordings that pointed the way **** “THAT POINTED THE WAY” free jazznoun
Ornette’s “The Shape Of...” definitely fits that classic definition. And that makes my point. You assume that “free jazz” has to be chaotic. That may be your definition, but it does not have to be “chaotic”. Much of it may sound that way to any given listener, but then we’re back to the “in the ear of the beholder” idea. How about an example of where you would draw the line, O-10? I prefer to not draw those kinds of lines, but that’s just me. That record POINTED THE WAY to: https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLCA8B2A8554D832CC&v=dtiSA2RKDzc And, of course: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xbZIiom9rDA |
Yes, great clip! Great player who could play traditional and “out”. **** How did I overlook Jordan? **** Did you? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Fhe6cW3ho_s Gonsalves/Ellington: Epic! |
What a bunch of self-serving nonsense. First, accusations about destroying Classical music while using as an example music that not only isn’t “Classical” music at all, but doesn’t pretend to be nor was, as far as I can tell, posted as such....right. I guess that since a cello is used and it’s referred to as “chamber music” then it must be “Classical”. Can’t we do better than this? And then, of course, and once again, followed by condemnation of ALL new jazz. As my wife likes to say, “Jeez Louise!” Anyway, was listening to this this morning. Kills me every time. I just love this guy’s sound and attitude: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RhB5PO2gc-U&index=4&t=0s&list=PLE1SK0O9FkE6WskguWMTWEFvrz0... |
O-10, I like learning the history of the relationships that musicians had with each other. This is the first time I hear about Newman leaving Ray’s band on bad terms. Their relationship was known to be one of fast friends and I had always thought that he left because he was becoming a top session player. Is this something that you opine or that you know to be fact? Would love to hear more details. Thanks! https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLYRD7YbW1Ncoe8RwitQwU6EXbPYFIXESx |
Thanks for the Steve Turre clips. Good and funky player with a really nice feel. Interesting on shells too. Here’s some more current players who are playing some very good new cra....I mean, jazz 😎 They all have something to say: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3yLbb2VTk9M https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xDjS3Wmwpw8 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BeDOV7y7vFw https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vTZbyI7MfQg https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M00pv_STdfo |
Glad you all liked the clips. I’m sure it did no go unnoticed that all those recordings were made by younger jazz players. In my book all that music is “new jazz”. Straight-ahead jazz to be sure, but definitely with a conceptual approach that is more modern or “newer” than what was heard in the fifties and sixties; including the ones that are not new compositions and are covers of standards. There is so much great new jazz out there by very talented young players that if anyone thinks otherwise they’re simply not looking or don’t want to see it for some reason. |
Igualmente, Schubert; que Dios te bendiga. Bit of talent in Spain indeed: https://youtu.be/hElfsRm6_NI https://youtu.be/p5KC0aRFJyY |
No time to write, but a little time to cut and paste. This subject has come up previously. This is from two old posts of mine: ———————————— Orpheus10, as you point out West Coast Jazz is difficult to define. But, it does have some general defining characteristics. It can be differentiated from East Coast Jazz and other styles by the fact that West Coast players tended to play with a "cooler" approach; generally speaking, with a lighter and softer tone. There was an emphasis on the composition and arrangements as opposed to the improvisation; and sometimes classical music compositional techniques such as fugues were part of the mix. The fact that there was great demand for arrangers in Hollywood surely helped some of these stay employed. I already mentioned one of my favorite recordings in this style (the Previn/ Shorty Rogers). I mentioned that one because it is lesser known, as well as being a favorite. I am sure you already now some of these, but a few other favorites are: Miles Davis "Birth Of The Cool". The title says it all. What can be said about this recording that hasn't already be said. Other than to note that this session is really considered a Gil Evans session; which further highlights the clout that the arranger had. Dave Brubeck "Time Out". Good example of the use of classical techniques. Paul Demond/ Gerry Mulligan "Two Of A Mind" Zoot Sims "Quartets" "Shelly Manne And His Men Play Peter Gunn" Henry Mancini arranger "Art Pepper + Eleven" Vince Guaraldi "Charlie Brown Suite" No kidding, one of my favorites ——————————————————————— ****Why were all the East Coast guys black and all the West Coast guys white?**** While it is true that most practicioners of "West Coast Jazz" were white, not "all" were; Buddy Collette, Benny Carter, Chico Hamilton and Red Callender, to name a few, were black. ****So, if I were a second rate horn player where would I go to earn fame and fortune? I could go to LA where Jazz had no history or establishment**** The idea that only second rate players were found in LA is absolutely not true and very unfair to the many great players who hailed from LA and were part of a movement in jazz that reflected a different stylistic aesthetic from that of the East Coast and not a reflection of lesser quality. Additionally, it is not true that in LA jazz had no history or establishment. There had always been a vibrant Jazz scene in LA with traditional jazz playing a very prominent role. Even your fave Jelly Roll lived in LA for many years. LA was, in fact, were many great musicians went to "gain fortune". Many of the great LA jazz players were also very successful session players in the LA movie studios recording for the countless movie scores being produced. Unfortunately, that scene was racially segregated during the 40s and 50s, but players/arrangers like Benny Carter were able to change that situation for themselves and all that followed. There is an interesting connection between the existence of the Hollywood scene and the West Coast Jazz style. In keeping with, and perhaps as a result of, the demands of the movie industry for very well crafted and extended compositions for their movie scores, the West Coast Jazz style highlights the compositional elements of the music much more than the East Coast (hard)bop style which is typically that of a simple pass through the melody followed by improvised solos. The West Coast style features more intricate compositions with elements of Classical counterpoint and it was the first time that the very demanding concept of a jazz ensemble without a chordal instrument (piano, organ, guitar) was implemented; all this with a typically softer ("cool") instrumental tone approach as opposed to the harder edged East Coast style. Does this make it jazz that is less "real" and the other more real? Since when do the French decide what is real jazz? 😊 |
West/East: Sorry guys, but you’re conflating several issues and painting with way too broad a brush. First, while I’m glad that you thought my descriptions were complete, O-10, I don’t agree with your comment that East Coast jazz, because it often (not always) has more of an emphasis on improvisation than West Coast jazz, is more emotional. This relates to the recent question re “soul” and which music or which player has more soul than another. One simply can’t make generalizations about this. I can easily give examples of musicians playing music that is written down who play it with much more emotion and “soul” than many examples of improvised music which can come across as emotionally dry and even mechanical. That kind of generalization simply doesn’t work and doesn’t answer anything about the question of the differences between the two styles of playing. To say that East Coast jazz is “more real” is doing West Coast players a disservice and is simply not true. We are talking about two different STYLES of playing. Yes, East Coast jazz is GENERALLY harder edged and less cool. Does that make it “more real” or more emotional? I don’t think so. Different, yes. I think acman3’s post and question go a long way toward shedding some light on this: **** I wonder if music is like language, in that while going up in Texas, and working on farms and ranches as a teen, then working in Dallas for 40 years and losing my twang, for the most part, when I hang out with my East Texas friends, I actually hear my twang come out more pronounced. Do musicians develop a sound like the people they play with? **** First, the answer to the question is, definitely. The broader point goes to the important fact that the parallels between music playing and basic human experience are many. Think of it this way: Think about that cousin that we all know who always seems to be on an “emotional” roller coaster; who is loud at parties and wears loud attire. Then there is that other cousin who is quiet, perhaps even shy, and wears sensible shoes. We then get to really know and understand each of them only to find out that the loud one is always late, is unreliable, cheats on his wife and just declared bankruptcy. The quiet one would never tell you this, but he is the one who donates his time at church, takes his kids to soccer practice (in his sensible shoes), chooses to keep his problems to himself and is a great listener when you really need him to listen. Is the loud and extravagant cousin “more real”? Does he have more “soul”? Not in my book. Are people on the East Coast more “real” than people on the West Coast? O-10’s Nica’s Dream comparison: First of all, I don’t think that those recordings are a good example or indicative of the differences in the styles, There is no more improvisation in the Horace Silver version than in the Curtis Counce; so, there goes the notion that because there is more improvisation (there isn’t) it is more “real” or more emotional. Then there is what Rok describes as “more in your face, more of an edge.” The main reason for the difference and why it made that impression is simple (you want “nuts and bolts”?): Horace Silver’s version is faster. They play the tune at a faster tempo; much faster. Just because the music is played in the West Coast doesn’t necessarily mean that it is played in what is typically considered “the West Coast style”. There was and is a lot of “crossing over” in the styles of playing which is why those generalities just don’t work. The recently discussed music of Dave Brubeck or Gerry Mulligan are much better examples of what can be considered classic West Coast jazz. Generally much more compositionally intricate and a generally more laid back attitude. **** The mismatch in talent could have been the difference. I would not have been able to say one was East Coast vs West Coast.**** The difference was the tempo and the reason you wouldn’t be able to tel that one was West and the other East was that there was very little difference other than the tempo. Another generality that doesn’t hold up is the recurring idea that because some musicians couldn’t read music their playing was somehow “more real” than that of those who could. Simply not true. Art Pepper, as good an example of a West Coast alto player as there is was a terrible reader. Conversely, there were many East Coast hard bop players who were great readers. #### Hollywood, Movie themes, CA life style, (they were and are different from the rest of the US), little if any influence from black music. The question is: The jury is still out. #### I think the jury is very much “in”. As with those two cousins, our impressions and reactions to each have as much to do with who we each are as individuals and how we judge that sort of thing as does the reality of who they are. The generalities don’t work and our personal criteria in judging may not be and probably aren’t anyone else’s. Besides, I thought you recently wrote that you didn’t think that genetics (black music) should be the determining factor for “soul” (“more real”). I agree with you, it shouldn’t. |
O-10, you argue against a point that I never made. I clearly said that there are important differences between East Coast jazz and classic West Coast jazz. As with all music the two different styles reflect their “birthplace” in many ways. My disagreement is with your suggestion that West Coast jazz is “less real” and “less emotional”. I don’t agree with that characterization. The style of playing is different and it resonates more with some listeners than with others for the reasons that I tried to explain. Moreover, not all jazz played on the West Coast falls into the stereotypical West Coast “cool” style; especially currently today. LA has and has always had a bebop scene, a swing (traditional) scene, as well as a “cool” scene. I’m also surprised that you don’t think that players influence other players; especially when they work together. Much has been discussed here on the topic of players’ influence on other players and the idea of evolution in jazz. There is much in print or video interviews in which players who have played with Miles speak about how much they learned from Miles and how much Miles influenced their playing. Art Blakey’s Jazz Messengers were referred to by some as “The Hard Bop Academy”. Rok, seems to me it is not I making the straw man arguments re the Nica’s Dream comparison. I never said that tempo was the “ONLY” difference. Please reread what I wrote. I clearly wrote “main difference” or that there was “little difference” between the two.... especially as concerns a West/East comparison. Remember we are talking about differences in the general style of playing on the two versions since we were talking about East/West. Obviously, since there are different players involved the playing will be different and one could argue that any one player’s playing is better than on the other version; but that is not what’s being discussed, the style is. The general style of playing is very similar on both. They even play the same arrangement of the tune and even have the same order of solos. You yourself said that you would not be able to tell that one was West and the other East. THAT’S THE POINT! That’s why that particular comparison is not a good one. You wanted to know about the “nuts and bolts” differences . In this example, aside from the faster tempo, there is very little. (Personally and subjectively, I like Blue Mitchell’s solo better, but much prefer Harold Land’s to Junior Cook’s). Don’t underestimate the impact that simply the difference in tempo can have on the emotional impact of music; it is huge. Avid audiophile that I know you are (not! 😊) you’ll appreciate the fact that many feel that the reason that the well known Rega 3 turntable is so popular and thought to be so rhythmically exciting is the fact that the motor runs less than 1% fast. What are the big differences in STYLE that you hear besides the faster tempo. West Coast style: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JbYUFD3spTM East Coast style: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=duMc7RCZoME mary_jo, I’m flattered. Apology to your printer 😌. Nice clips. |
Nah! Not “hung up” at all, O-10. I could just as easily point out that you get “hung up” on the “feeling” without taking into account that our feelings about things are always influenced by more than the reality of it. Some even let cover art influence how they “feel” about music. As usual, you mistakenly think that understanding the technical means that there is no appreciation of the feeling. I have a different take on what is at the root of the disagreement, O-10 and it doesn’t have much to do with what is actually heard or not heard. Best to leave it at that and not argue about it. Personally, I don’t think you dig deep enough when you try and discuss these things and paint things with way too broad a brush. I think that to “go only by what I hear” is a great thing....when it’s accompanied by a modicum of respect for the fact that none of us understand all that there is to understand. Peace. |
Gee, thanks, Rok. First you ask for an explanation because. Then, you don’t like and criticize the answer. And, best of all, you then accuse the very person who you ask an explanation from of being illogical, agenda driven and dishonest. Nice. I asked for your explanation. Why don’t you leave the personal stuff out of it and offer something cogent on the subject instead? Familiar tune. |
pjw, you asked what I thought of Ginger Baker playing jazz. Like you, I have always thought that Baker is a great drummer and I concur about the supergroup Cream; fantastic and epochal music. I have loved the group and Baker since my high school years. More about that group (Clapton) in a moment. The first of your Baker/Frisell/Haden Trio clips was posted here about two years ago by contributor ghosthouse and this is what I wrote then: **** 09-22-2016 3:33pm The Ginger Baker clip I didn’t like; sorry. Thank god for Charlie Haden! He was the rock in that trio and sounds fabulous. Baker is unquestionably more than just a great rock drummer; but, he’s no jazz drummer. He does ok, but he just doesn’t have the chops and comfort in that language to really contribute on the level of the great jazz drummers and seems to be tagging along Haden’s amazing pulse. Speaking of great jazz drummers, some of my favorite Frisell was with Paul Motian: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6jFZ3X9CFuA **** I have to say that aside from hearing that clip back then and again now (in addition to the others you posted) that those are the only times that I have heard Baker in anything other than a Rock bag. Ok, all that was for full disclosure. After listening to the other clips that you posted I have to revise my feelings a bit. My feeling about the first of the trio clips have not changed and I would repeat what I said two years ago. On slower tempos and certainly on stuff that is “swingy”, while he certainly sounds competent, to my ears Baker just doesn’t quite have the finesse and touch of a great jazz drummer who can coax a lot of different colors from the it and, as I said before, he sounds a bit like he is tagging along for Haden’s drive. I feel he redeems himself quite a bit on the up tempo tunes and is much more in his comfort zone in those. I’m tempted to say he sounds really good “for a Rock drummer”, but that wouldn’t be fair since he’s a lot more than that. He is much more in control and at home with material that requires more volume and not as light a touch, imo. Really not that surprising considering his background. Playing slower tempos is fundamentally much harder than faster, more aggressive tempos. Frisell sounds amazing, btw; incredible player. Baker is a monster drummer and he has a much wider range than the majority of players that came to jazz from the r&r side of things (I know he has played “jazz” since early in his career), but ultimately, when compared to great jazz drummers I don’t think he sounds any more convincing than Clapton sounds playing with Wynton’s band. Good, but...... For further full disclosure, I have to admit that when listening to players who are well known as rock players play jazz, I always think about the time I went to see Charlie Watts “play jazz” at “Sweet Basil” in NYC years ago. Embarrassing. He had the great British alto player Pete King with him who was almost able to save the day. Thanks for all the great clips. I just noticed that the above link is not working. Here is some favorite Paul Motian Trio. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YaY1GVeHqKw https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JaCCxBIoEZc |
nsp, good question re Art Pepper since, as you say, he played in Kenton’s band. I didn’t read that factoid about his reading skills anywhere. I heard about it from an old friend, Joel Kaye who played saxophone in Kenton’s band in the early 60’s and was himself a great arranger and disciple of Johnny Richards who arranged for Kenton. The road (and other 😉) stories about Kenton were many and apparently there were a couple of players in the band including Pepper who struggled with the reading of the charts. There are readers who need to slowly learn what’s on the page, players who are decent readers and then there are players who are phenomenal readers who can read anything perfectly the first time through. I believe my comment about Pepper was in the context of the studio scene in the West Coast. Studio players can and are expected to be crack readers who can play just about anything the first time through. Pepper as wonderful as he was was not that kind of reader. |
pjw, enjoyed the story re Lou Donalson. And like his playing a lot. Nice clip with the little talked about Tommy Turrentine, brother of Stanley. I like the other alto player you met that night also: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nq73hVJ3Rfs https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-iQiHUrb-a4 |
nsp, your observations about the two versions of “Everything Happens To Me” are very good. As concerns the arrangements, instrumentation, form and general feel they are very accurate and I agree. My one correction would be that it is actually sixteenth (not eighth) notes that Desmond uses almost exclusively, while Woods also plays lines of thirtysecond notes like he does at 3:22-3:28 which gives his playing a generally more aggressive and busier feeling eventhough the tempo of his version is actually slower than Desmond’s. |
pryso, you’re exactly right re “Somethin’ Else”. That record has long been considered by some to really be a Miles session. There was a debate here a while back about the relative merits of it vs KOB. SE is a great record with a lot of fantastic playing. I can definitely understand why someone might prefer it’s overall fairly conservative style, but it wasn’t the game changer that KOB was. As concerns their relative importance in the history of jazz KOB wins hand down. Still, it is interesting to me that Cannonball’s very upbeat playing feels even more at home on SE than on KOB’s modal tunes with their more introspective vibe and the company of Coltrane’s more modern and “edgier” harmonic language. On KOB, as great as he sounds, Cannonball sometimes sounds to me a little bit like the odd man out. |
O-10, this is a little like the “what is West Coast Jazz and what is East Coast Jazz” issue in that there is a lot more nuance to the situation than is taken into account when discussing it. Miles was already someone of tremendous stature (and tremendous ego). Already twenty four records as leader. Cannonball was a newcomer and SIDEMAN in MILES’ band. Then there are the facts presented by pryso re the particulars of the material. Add to all this the fact that the producer has a tremendous influence in how it all goes down and it is easy to see that, at most, it was a collaboration. I would bet anything (and many others agree) that this power dynamic (which exists in all projects like this one) was much more slanted toward Miles than anyone else. “Leader”, “boss”, “sideman”, whatever; Miles had much more than the typical sideman influence on that record. And much of the feeling of the music reflects this. As far as the merits of SE vs KOB goes, I won’t get into a debate about that again. There is so much written about the importance of KOB in the history and evolution of jazz that it seems silly to debate it. SE was a great record. KOB was a game changer. I am not surprised that in some “circles KOB was barely considered an also ran”; time stands still for some listeners. |
Fitting for pjw’s post. Awkward to post this for reasons that should be obvious, but still one of the funniest bits: https://youtu.be/1Zn-P0ZH3_M |
Happy Holiday, everyone! Thanks for the link acman3. And great Stitt clip; nice segue to the Cosby bit! Notice how toward the end of his comedy bit Bill Cosby sings “Cherokee” in the same key (the original key) that Sonny Stitt plays it in. Very hard to pull that out of the blue and hear the key, especially in a context like that. The guy had (s?) some real musical talent as well. What a shame he has such a dark side. guswatte, welcome to the thread. Very eclectic trio of recordings. I’m intrigued by Anna Maria Jopek: Minione (collaboration with Rubalcaba), Haiku and will check it out. O-10, I am glad you hold SE in such high esteem; I do as well. I guess I am not a “true connoisseur of jazz” capable of recognizing what is the hippest. Since I am not, I will only sheepishly point out a couple of things about the comparison you pose: On SE’s “Love For Sale” Cannonball doesn’t even play the tune. The opening and closing statements of the melody are by Miles. Cannonball doesn’t even play at all for a full two and a quarter minutes. Secondly, I would respectfully suggest you listen to KOB a little more before passing judgment. Had you done so, perhaps you would have known that “Love For Sale” doesn’t appear on KOB at all. That recording is from a different record. What’s on the grill today fellows? Pork chops with a pineapple glaze over here. Enjoy! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H0pvrG3oMuA |