Again frog, thanks for your explanations.
I didn't intend to suggest that Garland's specific style was like many other pianists, simply observing that many now use some combination of block cording and single note lines. And I have the "Milestones" album so have heard that "Billy Boy" many times.
My basic point here is that after listening to jazz in general for several decades, and having heard many of the linked numbers posted here multiple times, because of my lack in musical knowledge, I'm even now learning some insights on structure and presentation. That provides an avenue to listen anew. Much of the musically technical information you posted quickly went over my head. But grasping just the basics of it should expand my listening.
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Similar to classical music, there seems to be a fair bit of discussion on where jazz is headed. Is it fading with an aging audience? Are young people picking up on it? Are there any new musicians with something to say? Following my recent Mingus kick I happened across a video of BBC Proms 2017 with a performance dedicated to his music. The entire video runs just over two hours, but I also found this from the last 20 minutes. It raised the point for me, can this be the direction of "new jazz"? It seems more show than substance but this young guy certainly seems to be athletic and have good wind! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krLYZmPRtncI think I see why Leo didn't make our recent list of top bari players. ;^) |
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alex, my thoughts . . . "Motherless Child" was OK simply because I like the song. But the other two? Not so much. As a personal note, I don't care much for jazz with strings or chorus added. I never bought that Charlie Parker album with strings for example. But there can be exceptions. There is a longer story behind this but I still enjoy this Swingle Singers album I've had since it was released. For my ears and tastes, a wonderful blend of jazz and classical. Maybe not strictly Third Stream, but I like it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rH6vCuV-e6g |
o10, has my list of "killers" included that link to Leo? I don't quite see him in the same way as your favorite bari player Pepper or mine in Mulligan. ;^)
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mary jo, try this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNYOVEXJBBMrok, I'm not familiar with anything done by WAR for a couple of decades. Are you saying whatever may have been done recently pales in comparison to their early efforts? If so, I can believe it. There are many bands (jazz, rock, blues, whatever) that started with something creative and interesting but were never able to sustain that. |
rok, thanks for bringing that forward. It remains one of my all time favorite do-wop numbers.
Now, this conversation seems to continue to reach back to "Elevator to the Scaffold". When I started college there was a foreign film series run on campus every Friday night. Not only was it a cheap date, it exposed me to many classic French, Italian, Swedish, British, and Japanese films. That was a huge awakening for me since my experience had previously focused on American westerns and comedies. Still, I somehow missed "Elevator", although I suspect it could have been included sometime.
But yes o10, I will make time to watch it online. |
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Now, "All the loud noise, drugs, absurd dress and conduct". For me, that was the description of the '60s. And while I certainly agree with rok that many times with music it covered up a lack of talent, I believe that is too much of an oversimplification.
The "loud noise" developed from a couple of things. First, the transition to more electronically amplified instruments. Second, as rock grew in popularity it commanded larger and larger venues for performance, which in turn demanded more electronics. That wasn't only rockers. Young folks were demanding to be heard. Consider the evolution of Dylan.
"Drugs" were certainly a contributor to the development of R&R during the '60s. That had been some part of musical development and presentation previously but not to such an extent. But was that not a "chicken and egg" situation of the culture of the times? Tune in and drop out was not a musical expression.
Similarly, "absurd dress" was part of the search for identity among young people in the '60s. So dress, speech, and hair (facial and otherwise) were simply outward manifestations of separating youth from their parents. Music and musicians went along with that, but they were far from exclusive.
And "conduct" of young people may be considered as an overall manifestation. Free speech, sit-ins, flower power, question authority, don't trust anyone over 30 did not evolve from R&R. Those attitudes utilized music as one other form of expression.
The fact that jazz partially evolved during that decade, but still survived intact decades later is a testament to its underlying worth.
Can you tell I was young in the '60s? ;^)
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Interesting comments. The term "rock & roll" became common in the mid-'50s. Many attribute it to Alan Freed, a radio DJ in Cleveland (ever wonder why the Rock and Roll Museum was located there?). He used it in reference to the combination of blues, country, and rhythm and blues he played on air. Along the way over time it became abbreviated as R&R in print and simply "rock" when mentioned verbally as well as in print media. The term rockers referred to both musicians and youngsters who favored that music. My point in breaking down rok's comments was to dispute that list of elements as the cause for bad music. I consider the music of the '60s (rock) to have evolved from society, not the other way around. A reflection as it were. Now if rok has strong dislike for music he/she labels rock, fine. Personal opinions should always be welcomed. But I take issue with those elements as being a cause for bad music. Like all musical categories, I would hope we can agree there are both good and bad examples. As I said, it is personal. Reviewing mary jo's list, for me it offers a good selection of rock. The main exception was the second Deep Purple song. That borders on heavy metal which is not my favorite. In fact for me heavy metal and acid rock are two sub-categories which could fit rok's list of elements. But someone else might choose to defend those. ;^) Least we forget that o10 began this post with the subject being jazz, I'll offer this example of jazz-influenced rock to tie this together. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImxM4Rj5pOQ |
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Actually, I've heard that Amos Milburn was credited with the first recording referred to as rock and roll. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amos_MilburnThat too precedes Freed, which was why I said "many attribute", rather than suggest absolute authorship. But hey, this is all for fun anyway. Now, back to your favorite jazz programming. ;^) Music for a Sunday, a different version that what I posted previously - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXijK-JlULg |
acman, your Trio link was blocked, sorry.
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frog, thanks for your well-considered comments, as always.
o10, are you, or anyone else, surprised that Yma's estate didn't sue Simon and Garfinkel for "stealing/copying" "El Condor Pasa"?
Actually, the whole musical plagiarism thing escapes me. It has been such a long-standing tradition, and not only in jazz, to copy/lift/modify/be influenced by all or part of songs created or performed by others that I just don't see a case for it. |
Catching up with the rest of you again. And glad to be back on track with the OP -- jazz. Let me offer this as a possibly surprising and under appreciated jazz musician, Andre Previn. I say that knowing his "My Fair Lady" album was alleged to be the top selling jazz record for some period of time. But after that died off, almost no mention again. He focused on Broadway show tunes with several albums devoted to individual shows. Of course it helped that he was accompanied by top flight musicians. To me he was certainly more than a classical conductor. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNBy1fxdZjEhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCSQlmUnMFsRegarding Romero, know it started with Celedonio, then his three sons, and are now into the third generation. (Yes I know not jazz, I'm just replying to earlier comments.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrJWS8YLhwEAs for Satie, I doubt I'm the only one initially exposed to his music by Blood, Sweat, and Tears - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6f_uj6qCFMRegarding QJ, possibly his greatest talent was surrounding himself with first rate players, whether on his own recordings or as a producer? |
o10, yes it would be fascinating to compare our respective jazz collections. However, I'm not into computers enough that I have an inventory list to share.
But you struck again. I also had that "Like Young" album. Now if you remember my comments not too long ago you'll know I'm not a fan of string backgrounds for jazz, Getz's "Focus" being one exception. So I didn't keep that particular Previn album. I still have 4 or 5 of his trio albums however.
My greatest amazement is that you can remember buying "My Fair Lady" in the fall of '59. As I commented recently on an audio site, I can't remember where or when I purchased hardly any of my music collection. That has been spread out over several decades, in three separate metropolitan areas, with purchases from record stores, department stores, audio stores, audio shows, record clubs, swap meets, yard sales, on line, and having friends and family give them to me. I know I've owned "Kind of Blue" since around 1960 for example. But if that was '59 or '60 or '61 I really can't say. It may have come from the Columbia Record Club, but I'm not certain. So I admire all of you with better memories. ;^)
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A little more on the jazz/classical mix. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wo_5D-Bg44But I believe I read somewhere that Gunther Schuller, credited with originating the term "third stream", intended it to represent a stand-alone musical category. He felt the use of third stream jazz was a misnomer. |
frog, your comment suggests I share a little personal musical history - "If the listener doesn’t like Classical, Baroque music in particular, chances are he won’t like it." As mentioned previously, I grew up in a house with a fair bit of recorded music. Dad played records of jazz from the '30s and '40s while mom listened to pop singers of the day, mixed with only a little light-classical. My own interests in music began with rock and roll (Bill Haley, Little Richard, Elvis), then folk, then jazz, but I had practically no exposure to classical music. Early on in college I happened to hear some of Bach's Brandenburg Concertos and was fascinated by it. To me the polyrhythms were similar enough to some jazz lines to make a connection, as well as the "call and response" element. So I began listening to other music by Bach, and that lead to other Baroque composers such as Vivaldi, Telemann, etc. Eventually that lead me to Beethoven, Mozart, and many others. My point in sharing this is to suggest there can be a tie between jazz and classical, as well as my own wonderment that my appreciation for classical evolved from jazz. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HSRIDtwsfMAll this contributed to my appreciation for a wide variety of music, even some opera and country western which I once discounted totally. Today I can find something to enjoy in just about every genre, the exceptions being rap, hip-hop, and heavy metal. ;^) |
rok, I have that album among my somewhat large Monk library and play it fairly often. I always thought Overton did a great job transcribing Monk's music for the larger group. I knew the recording time on a single LP would not likely include the full concert, so I always wondered if it had all been recorded and if so, were the remaining numbers available elsewhere? So looking for more along the right side of your first link I see one for (Full Concert) with a time of 1:05:30 which got my hopes up. But going to that link I found it contained several screw ups, i.e. not really all from the concert - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTbiNwwbQhoSo if anyone has a lead on more from Town Hall please post. Also, interesting about Art Monk. Never heard about that before. |
rok, you may have later seen this, but in case not -
In 1961, Schuller defined Third Stream as "a new genre of music located about halfway between jazz and classical music". Schuller insisted that "by definition there is no such thing as 'Third Stream Jazz'"
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Well frog, is this famous Miles' number classical or jazz or Third Stream? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvcU_v8ruGECurious minds want to know. ;^) And yes, I'd heard of Eddie Daniels, possibly even heard one of his recordings on my local FM jazz station. But I couldn't say I was familiar. I rather liked that though. |
acman3, that was totally new to me. That is interesting since I've commented a couple of times on connections I found between Baroque/Bach and jazz.
Now to clarify my position since I commented on likes and dislikes by identifying musical categories. In fact, I basically agree with frogman and Duke Ellington, "There are two kinds of music. Good music, and the other kind."
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rok, you're on a run. For my taste at least. ;^) While I listened to a lot of folk music in high school, it was not until 20-30 years ago that I learned how much I enjoyed bluegrass/string band music. Your "Bluegrass Breakdown" sure had some hot pickin'. And the "Rhythm, Country, & Blues" was a great video introduced on PBS some time ago, after which I bought the CD. No argument with any of your choices. Considering similarities between jazz and bluegrass, the latter does include a fair bit of improvisation. True there are favored runs or riffs that are inserted, but to my untrained ear, those are done spontaneously. In addition, compare the rhythm guitar backup with Grant Green or other jazz band accompanists. Then too, even the banjo was common in jazz groups up to WW 2. Look at Louis Armstrong's Hot Five and Hot Seven. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfORYuSJXTY |
Sorry folks, I relied on my memory which failed me again. I intended to reference Freddie Green as Basie's rhythm guitarist, not Grant Green. Just a steady foundation to each tune. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVwB7_CS6rkfrog, I have that Richard Greene album in my collection but haven't played it in years, so I'd forgotten about it. Do you see a thread here? ;^) |
Improvisation -- for me that can be expressed several ways.
The classical pianist may read the notes on the score for a Beethoven sonata and play every one of them without error. Still, their rendition will not likely sound like another pianist. They may vary the tempo, either overall or by intervals. They may insert pauses or hold sustain. They may play some passages (or notes) louder or softer. They are following the score (at least the notes) but they are performing with their personal emotion and thus interpretation. Are they not improvising for self expression?
Similarly a jazz pianist will play notes familiar enough that the song is recognizable, at least for the opening and ending bars. But they may also take the same personal interpretation steps with those segments, while adding more spontaneous intervals of some length through the middle. And unless it is "free jazz", those spontaneous intervals will follow certain "rules", the strict and predetermined framework of form and harmony frogman referenced. Otherwise the other musicians in the group could not follow them, nor could the audience. Still, there is great freedom within that framework, and the best musicians create something new and exciting with each playing. That is their improvisation.
And this is why I find some connection with bluegrass. The lead musicians are following a somewhat similar format as the jazz artists. The main difference may be their frameworks are more limited or restrictive. The still improvise, just not to the wide extent or with as many variations as jazz musicians.
More than speaking English, Previn and Peterson conversed easily because they spoke a similar musical language. So it flowed, had cohesion and energy, and was entertaining. Jazz artists communicate the same way musically. One does not know exactly what the other will play (say) next, but if it follows the predetermined framework then they can respond in a way that makes sense and hopefully builds upon that. I think it was simply Miles' talent that allowed him to carry on following Hancock who'd broken the rules of that framework, so that was a testimony to him. Not every good musician could have done that.
At least as a non-musician that's how I see it.
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"The Young Rabbits" was a great choice. Their music had drive!
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o10, I hope you don’t read this as my joining frogman and "piling on". As you’ve noted more than once, you and I share many musical tastes and appreciations.
For all that, I think you look at classical performances in too much of a constricted view. If you really believe "when some guy played the same identical "Bach Concerto" as another guy the night before, and someone else the night before that, I don’t see any latitude for improvisation", then I suggest you read, or re-read, my post at 10:46 PM yesterday. Even as a non-musician I easily hear different interpretations by different musicians of the same written score, be that for soloists or entire ensembles. How else would classical conductors or orchestras develop such individual reputations? There can be and are improvisations in both genres.
Yes jazz and classical are very different, but those apples and oranges can all become "juice" for those open to the tasting.
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And now back to our regularly scheduled programming -- the music itself. This is offered to all those who ask about Afro-Cuban, the Buena Vista Social Club, Santana, hispanic jazz, or drumming. Just see what five percussionists and one bass player can create. Can't say I could hum along, but I enjoyed it. ;^) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPvMEZoZoZU |
rok, would that have been in or near Oxford? I had a good friend who was on the faculty of Ol' Miss there for several years and I visited once. I liked the town. I thought it was one of the best in the South.
But I can't imagine how you would have been disappointed in a "scrubbed up" Hollywood version of rock and roll . . . ;^)
The Platters caused me to search for a link to the parody of their "Smoke Gets In Your Eyes" but I couldn't find it. It came out after they were busted for drugs.
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"I think the Mississippi intellectuals, folks who could read, write and figure, lived up around Oxford." Great line! ;^)
When I visited my friend and his wife in Oxford we took a side trip to Clarksdale. I just had to see the famous blues "crossroads". But the devil was nowhere in sight. We had lunch in a funky old bar where I'm certain I would have heard some great blues had I been there any evening.
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rok, you keep posting treasures from my youth. ;^) And I fully agree about the importance to the young.
But as I attempted to explain previously, I don't differentiate Rock and Roll from Rock musically. But maybe that's just me. Apparently you view it differently |
Categories? We don' need no stinkin' categories!
For me, a problem arose when too many categories were identified. Many of those were actually sub-sets, not stand alone for example. Some viewed blues and rhythm and blues as individual identifiers, some put them together. Others considered blues as a sub-set of jazz while calling R&B a sub-set of R&R. Then within blues you can find Delta, Chicago style, Detroit style, urban, country, East Coast, where does it end? Further, Chicago may have Southside and who knows what others?
For me the only time defining categories is meaningful is when arranging my music collection, and that is to simplify by major musical type and then sort alphabetically to facilitate finding what I'm looking for. So I defined eight categories for that. With a smaller music library I could live with fewer categories.
Musically I agree with Duke as I quoted recently, but that is not helpful when searching through hundreds of choices.
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In addition to music I've been a film fan my whole adult life. With movies I particularly enjoy the Cohen Brothers so bought the DVD of "O Brother, Where Art Thou?" early on. Later I was delighted to find the soundtrack on a 2-LP set.
I'm a huge fan of Alison and love almost all the music there.
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o10, it is interesting to call up popular music from the '50s. Things were still more regional at that time. If you could find Top Ten record lists from Boston, NYC, Philly, Detroit, Chicago, New Orleans, and LA for a given date I believe you would find quite a variety.
I remember listening to AM radio late evenings from south-central MI in the late '50s and enjoying different music from stations in Boston, New Orleans, Chicago, and a big favorite, WLAC. (Yes, the AM band could travel long distances at night when there was less interference.) Chicago was very similar to my local station's music but the others were all different. But I liked WLS so often listened to that in addition to locals.
I think TV and Dick Clark changed all that. The hit lists became almost universal.
For all that, I remember and even owned 45s of most of the songs offered here from that era. Lovin' it!
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Yes o10, you posted another winner. Which reminded me of the wonderful "Doo Wop" show presented by TJ Lubinsky and aired on PBS. Dating back to 2000, this may have been the first of what has become a long series of "oldies" music with his productions on PBS. I was fortunate to find a DVD of that program which included more music than was aired. This link accesses much of that. And since it was cut into individual songs you can scan through on the right side to find your favorites. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rWRQQYFZfA&list=PLDb0WKMQo3Ux0ooXEOR1GgMqFFrSKGHA2It's funny to think back to those times and wonder what ever happened to some of those young girls? I moved away after finishing school so lost track of most of them. Guess I am a real sentimentalist since hearing some of those songs again does tug at the old emotions. |
Thanks frog, I've been intending to post Super Sax for some time but always get sidetracked.
And rok, that is my favorite Ellington album. I admit to not enjoying his music as much as many jazz fans do, I prefer Basie. But that Newport record is too much to resist.
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Perfect examples frog. I don't diminish Duke's talent or all that he created, I simply prefer listening to Basie.
Personal taste and preferences are not always easy describe. We may know where we are but not necessarily how we got there. ;^)
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Thanks rok, that's what I'm talking about. There is just that bounce and rhythmic drive in Basie's music that pulls me along. Doesn't matter if the tempo is fast, slow, or in between. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCmcoZktZG4 |
frog, I had the pleasure of hearing Basie and band on what may have been his last tour, sometime in the early '80s. He came on stage in a small electric scooter/chair. But once he transferred to the piano bench there was no limitation. The music swung hard and steady all evening! ;^) Regarding Cherry o10, this is from one of the Old and New Dreams albums I have. They are high on my list. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUSVOADQObM |
Well o10, here's an album I bought in the early '60s. I considered it "pretty far out" at the time but soon came to enjoy it. So you can see that Old and New Dreams's recordings were a natural progression for me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNbD1JIH344Also it was my growing music collection that led me to becoming an audiofool in the hopes of enjoying it more. That happened over the years and decades, but the music is still the basic catalyst. |
At the bottom of one of the Chico links was this one, certainly worth including here if it never has been - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbaGDDbpcQ4Which raises an interesting point. An album can be released, sell moderately well, then sort of disappear. Somehow, years later it is "discovered" and becomes a classic. If it was later featured in a movie soundtrack I could better understand it, but otherwise how does that happen? Quite unlike some such as "Kind of Blue" or "Time Out", classics which have held their popularity since their introduction. And yes, not only true with jazz. It certainly has happened with pop/rock albums too. So maybe a poll, name your favorite "rediscovered" jazz album. ;^) |
rok, often I appreciate your recommendations here. But I must admit I was a bit taken aback by your statement, "You will be amazed at the number of 'so-called' Aficionados, that just don't get it."
Not to start another controversy here but that suggests we should all like/approve the same music or else we get excluded from the club.
As an example I've admitted to here earlier, I don't hold Ellington in the same esteem as most jazz fans. I certainly appreciate his talent, what he created, and what he means to the world of jazz. But I simply don't enjoy listening to his band/orchestra as much as many, many other artists. I think it is called personal taste.
However prior to discovering this post I never would have called myself an "aficionado" anyway. ;^) |
So, a little more on my feelings about Ellington, not that any of you might or should care. ;^) I'm not much of a fan of big band jazz in general. By necessity too much must be charted out. Yes there are solos within a number but the ensemble playing just seems to lose something in spontaneity for me. A bit of big band jazz (Basie, Herman, Ellis, Evans, etc.) I can enjoy, but most others I can easily skip. As I tried to say, that's just me, nothing negative about the Duke himself. rok, "We are all entitled to our own opinion, just not our own facts." I was not aware I was presenting anything as fact, just stating my own position. alex, as it happens I'm a big fan of Groucho, and have been known to quote him myself. So excuse me if I offer a slight correction to your quote, "I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member." acman, I have posted a bit of Basie, but will add this, it is representative of the drive that draws me in - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cc0nDETJlbYfrog, I guess my perspective on Nelson's "Blues And The Abstract Truth" was more in the sense of reduced popularity/general awareness, not that it was forgotten by the jazzbos. It was released to acclaim, then was seldom heard or talked about (outside of the dedicated jazzbos) for some time. Now with the reissued vinyl craze over the past 10+ years it became well known again. So (shudder) maybe I'm only thinking of sales. Other candidates for rediscovered albums I'll offer are Mingus' "Tijuana Moods, two or three Julie London records, and June Christy's "Something Cool". Those were all records I heard practically nothing about for years and now with the reissued vinyl they are in demand again. That is different from other jazz albums which continued sales on CDs in the intervening years. |
Thanks frog. I have the "Live at the Sands" recording on CD. I love the entire album except for Sinatra's monolog. That smacks too much of the old white guys doing the Amos 'N Andy routine. I could just imagine members of the band cringing while he did it. Luckily with CD it is easy to skip to the next track. I agree about Freddie Green. Did you see my comments on him during the mention of bluegrass and the importance of the rhythm guitar back up? Speaking of Thad Jones, this has long been a favorite album (easy since I love Monk so much anyway) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoSoCj3DWhc&list=PLbQSo5KOStyvpPfvrQy4Kvyt1q_genUbS |
frog, yes, "5 x 5" was what I intended. Don't know what happened, so thanks for correcting. o10, I did enjoy those. But that's an album I don't have, so a rare time we are out of step. ;^) Now, not jazz?, maybe jazz?, certainly jazz? o10 and rok since you still appreciate doo-wop, here's a revision - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQCtBIBcPpE |
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