Frogman, I liked the more 'mellow' things, the ones that have faster tempo are played well but I do not find them appealing. For what I can say, I miss certain 'sustain' in his notes. (Flanagan is someone with opposite style who I like) But, as Acman has said, I would never guess that these recordings were more than 40 years old, when I first heard them I thought that they sound like some contemporary jazz that is played recently. https://youtu.be/FnA-g9iw9tcThank you for your explanation, I certainly enjoy reading such notes |
Usually I would say they sound ’baroque’- esk, because of their ’grandeur’ caracter of production, but one could not attribue symmetry and strict regulations to any jazz music (as to ’baroque’), to be called it that way.
So, I kind of used that term to ’derogatively imply that the style was frivolous or merely modish’.
Is it ’superficial or just poor taste’, one has to conclude for himself.
Perhaps I would not say that they lack intimicy or warmth, but they sound over produced for me, with lots of ’extra’ added.
No matter that musicanship is often superb, still it sounds (imho) that work is result more of applied craft than of genuine inspiration.
When we look now at those recording in a context (as you allways say) of time when they were recorded, we know that they were made in a moment when jazz was in decline, so those musical arrangments had the purpose to bring or to hold attention of broader public.
I cant know for sure was there any succes in that atempt, but aldo I have some of those albums I do not consider them to be best representatives of jazz music in general.
I do not want to bring back that constant ’discussion’ but sometimes, at least when my simple taste is in question, I feel that ’jazz jazz’ had finished with its 'best' days some years prior to that period.
There is a guitar player, on lots of CTI albums, whose tone I like very much. Its Eric Gale. There is one his album 'In a jazz tradition' that I am curious to hear. Maybe somebody has it?
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Froman, some time ago there was 'discussion' here about influence od classical music on jazz.
Just watched some documentary, about influence of tempo (meter) on music, and it seems to me that there is no dobut (if there was ever, for some, at least) that jazz pianists draw influence from impressionists.
I wonder, do you think (hear) that when you listen to majority of artists or it is quality of only some?
I think, that if somebody could add rythm section on some of Debussy's music, that many could easily mistaken it for Bill Evans work...
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Ghosthouse, we have had that discussion more than once here , I am not sure have we made any mutual conclusions.
As far as I am concerned, if you ask, I have my preferences and most of them are from 50's and early 60's.
Honestly, even if such opinion may seemed limited, sometimes I feel that there is so much great music from that period, that often I am worried that I would not be able to hear all what I would like.
Perhaps, if you further develop your affinity toward some specific 'sound' of that era, you may find that your options and choices in music will become even more wider.
However, I am fully aware that all art once was 'modern', and maybe in some considerable future I might listen and like some of the stuff that today I find less appealing.
Furthermore, insisting than only some specific music can be called as 'jazz' I find amusing, but I can understand it. Maybe we should be more precise and name it as 'swing', 'bop' 'cool' or whatever.
Question for Frogman...as we all know, above mentioned (old) styles are quite recognasible and all have their names and meanings.
Why that is not (or is it?) the case with some new music that Rok so eloquently describe as 'noise making' ?
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Ghosthouse, here is another ’newer’ (he started in 70’s) artist and album that I have, that you might like. Its Rodney Jones, he played with some all time Jazz greats, as well album is ’Soul Manifesto’ https://youtu.be/2WzVpix59vUCharlie Hunter is another name that comes to my mind https://youtu.be/WXpUzsrMBC0Again, another trombone player (from the past),also posted it before ’Bill Harris and friends’ (again) and they are Webster, Rowles,Mitchell,Levey recorded in 1957 https://youtu.be/WXpUzsrMBC0https://youtu.be/au17d5LLSA8https://youtu.be/Ks4ebGaMDTQFrogman, question for you. I believe that today there is much less music that is composed for ’classical’ performing than it was in the past. Still, except from modern, disonant music, do you find that composed work is following some older patterns or it is created with some new influences, like the ones that are present in modern jazz? |
Orpheus, the one I got is Lucky Thompson, Impulse edition, recordings and line up as I mentioned them. It is on cd, as well as the 'Lucky Strike' Here is the link from Amazon https://www.amazon.com/Tricotism-Lucky-Thompson/dp/B000J3IHJO/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid...It would be nice to have all those albums on vinyl, but many that I look for are not or will never be printed again,(for some, lp-cd, is the opposite way) not to mention the difference in price. So, the cd's are best solution, for me. I am not fan of pc audio either, I like to have a 'solid' feel to records that I own |
Orpehues, I would bet that I have mentioned Lucky Thompson' album 'Tricotism' before, but if I am wrong, here it is again. Its recorded in 1956, and cd edition has recordings from two dates that he made that year,in January and December with Oscar Pettiford, Hank Jones, Skeeter Best (never made any album as a leader, as far I know) Hank Jones and Jimmy Cleveland. On ytube some of the songs are listed under Oscar Pettifords name, so unless one knows what to look for, it might be a problem to hear above mentioned album. Some links, first part are drumless songs, with Skeeter and Pettiford https://youtu.be/qa2Hs-nSX0khttps://youtu.be/n7gKcfKdeQ4https://youtu.be/_XrhG2956UoThan, compositions with Hank Jones and Jimmy Cleveland https://youtu.be/tCkhapYhebwhttps://youtu.be/RrwLp0tkckIhttps://youtu.be/j4jspWvxKMMAlso I like his album 'Lucky Strike' from 1964. again with Hank Jones https://youtu.be/fkKneiZNNXshttps://youtu.be/3694AGofxF4Lucky Thompson also(among others) recorded several albums as sideman for Milt Jackson, all in mid 50's if somebody wish to hear more of his playing |
Reporting from 'rest of the world'.
Imagine if all the people would listen to 'jazz jazz' and not the Jazz Pistols, for examp.
I bet some 'of us' would soon find some other stuff to enjoy....
I mean, all that 'plink plink' on guitars and 'doo boo daba dub' on horns, that got to become boring, at some point...
So, I say welcome to listeners of 'Jazz Pistols' or even Kenny G, or house or mtv music
Only with them around and their music, you got the chance to fully appreciate 'your stuff', what ever that might be...
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In some other time, this was called 'funky'. Gene Ammons jam session, album simply called 'Funky' from 1957. with great line up of Burrell, J.McLean, Art Farmer,Mal Waldron, Watkins, Taylor https://youtu.be/TXxFCCXXdDs?list=RDTXxFCCXXdDs |
Frogman I certainly liked the ’Groove Blues’ that you have posted, I dont have it, but will get it, strange, must admit that somehow I overlooked it. If you liked ’Funky’ you may try another of his jam sessions albums, called ’Jammin in Hi Fi’, with somewhat changed line up, but still with Burrell, Waldron and McLean, along with Idris Sulieaman, Chambers and Taylor. https://youtu.be/Es76Nsfr09sThere are couple more his albums,jamms, but I like the ones with Burrell most. Orpeheus, I must say that you have surprised me with those Enigma links. Never would thought that you may like that kind of music. Respect you and your taste, but I find their music to be very opposite off that how you consider it |
Perhaps somebody has hacked Orpheus profile?
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Frogman,hope you are not saying that my comments were personal? If there is any potential discussion that tends to be 'heaed' I alwyas put mark that my comments are in no way directed to the person, but to the opinion that one states. I am sure that in 'our debate' that was the case too. Further more, I strongly object that I ve expressed any 'innuendo' directed to you. No matter how much I disigree with something thats has been said, argumented and civil debate is a sign of good taste, measure and proper upbringing. If you really feel that you have been attacked personally, I offer you my sincere appology, but than I would ask for explanation of such thought or feeling
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Frogman and others,its quite true that we have not mentioned much clarinet players. In fact, must admit that I am aware of only few. Buddy DeFranco,as you have mentioned comes first on mind. Here are couple more albums. Art Tatum with Buddy DeFranco, from Tatum’s group masterpieces vol.7 https://youtu.be/wHG_Hpe64BQ?list=PLHrfyotDyFxJzsucdbZvIOISKkQ7s3pPCBuddy DeFranco septet ’Live Date’ from 1959. https://youtu.be/Hr2thPNb5_k Its going to be very hard to find that ’Live’ album, but it is published almost entierly on ’Generalissimo’compilation https://youtu.be/OBeA2RiFznIhttps://youtu.be/NihudzS3oM8There are many more nice Buddy DeFranco’s albums, from 50’s, few with Sonny Clark on piano Tony Scott’s albums are also little bit difficult to find, this one could be used as starting point. Copmilation,with Bill Evans, named ’A day in New York’ https://youtu.be/4WObMpeeDWsHere is another name, believe not very known any more, but he played with Ellington and Armstrong, among many others Its Barney Bigard Here is a nice swing album, with him Webster and Carter https://youtu.be/PtmQg7LBAsI |
Somebody said that when you go older you start to think that before the politicians were more honest, that prices were more reasonable and that young ones respected their elders. Well, I am 43 and already have that feeling. (except for politicians part)
But, truth to be told, somehow I do think that even in time when jazz was created, there were not many people who were devoted listeners.
Its a great pitty and maybe even a mystery to me, but its just the nature of things. That can be said for many different styles. Rock music is dead too. I am sure it had much more followers than jazz. Other music subgenres are better not to mention. Its same with many other art forms.
Much of ’grumpiness’ here I find to be a part of ’charm’ of this thread, hope everybody are all aware of it and doing it in for fun of it, not for malice
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Frogman, I find it very interesting how music affect us all differently and how origins of 'taste' could be very elusive. For reasons that I still try to understand,the sound of clarinet and accordion (even more) are the ones that associate me with almost instant and complete sadness, no matter what music is played. (slight exception is jazz on clarinet) Here are couple of links of music played on clarinet and accordion that are not jazz, but you may find them interesting, if nothing, than out of pure cuorisity. The music itself is from Balkans region, that was ruled by Otoman empire (as well as other powers) for couple of centuries and those influnces can be heard. I'll be interested to hear your comment, as well from others, if you find it interesting https://youtu.be/0cvKvd6HynAsame guy, playing composition of A.Shaw, some 30 years before(would not guess it, by looking at cover,ha,ha) https://youtu.be/OzD2Y9rI50I https://youtu.be/nhiZ8lDhSJM |
Frogman, its good to know and understand some 'tricks' from the trade. Aldo, must add, that origin of music might have some influence (even if its not from the parts or 'culture' where I live) I have the same (sad) sensation even when I hear or listen to classical music played on accordion.
Who would know the exact reason?
I was 'exposed' to jazz as a child, by my parents, but did not start to listen it untill I was 23.
Needless to say, been digging it since and still it looks like there is sea of unknown music and players, all within one decade.
Will that feeling change, I cant say, will let you know all, here perhaps
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Rok, eastern europe is a such vast area, any generalization is impossible. But, if you are curious, take a look at this. This is considered to be ’traditional music’ or at least one sort of it, from parts where I live. It is in fact recorded in a streets of my hometown, in a old centre. https://youtu.be/naJsH5SPzlUProbablly all started from such gatherings, around the kitchen table. This form is quite alive today, in many versions, some better than others https://youtu.be/fBU7qg-W3kMFemale ’group’ (its caled ’klapa’ ) https://youtu.be/ZIl9myYxuGkSometimes its possible to see some of those groups singing on streets, at summer usually, ’sotto voce’, just for fun of it... |
Frogman, glad you like it.
I believe that such sorts of accapella singing can be found in different parts of world,do you know has anybody made any comparations?
Rok, I really would not know, always I go to ytube. Why its spellled that way, with a dot between, its beyond me. Maybe it has something to do depending from which part of the world you log onto it?
But, if others are opening and listening to clips that I post, I guess you should have no fear either. I assure you that I am not trying to hack your pc
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Frogman, if you are interested to find out more about it, here is the link on english from Institute of ethnology and folklore research http://hrcak.srce.hr/file/68112In it, its in fact been said, how the origins of 'klapa' singing are from northern Italy (Italy is just across the sea,with strong influence, during many centuries) But, we kind of drifted away from the jazz, dont want to be rude If you have any questions, please ask |
Rok, that was a great clip from 'The Thomas Crown Affair', with McQueen and Dunaway. The remake, with Brosnan and R.Russo is not bad either, but 'happy end' spoils it. Maybe we should start a movie thread, or at least point to some works of art (paintings as well) who we consider to 'have soul', as it seems that we are constantly going back to that issue Any thoughts? My proposition, one of my favourite painters. He portraits loneliness, isolation, solitude and silence, all things that aching soul might express with jazz music too. Edward Hopper https://youtu.be/ByxRQMCitJo |
Rok, I never use generalizations of any kind, as you can read in my last post as well. But, we can certainly discuss are the 'loneliness and isolation' really antithesis of (some) jazz... I am sure that you know how easy is to find examples which support my thought (and vice versa, of course, so much jazz with exact the opposite feeling) So,just a few links on some jazz standards... https://youtu.be/B7R6dp74fR0https://youtu.be/6XEoZ0YiMPshttps://youtu.be/IKayR1oqC7whttps://youtu.be/OCqZE6oBSsQhttps://youtu.be/IIQc20cK5Vchttps://youtu.be/fXZR4zxMDeAFrogman, Bakers music is (to me) always first beautiful, than sad. If it was the other way around, I am not sure how could anybody endure much of it. Also I have few reproductions of E.H. at my home, prints, but on canvas, they look quite 'real' that way. |
Frogman, I agree, of course, only wanted to say that sometimes its a must (for me) to look (listen) first from the perspective of ’beauty’ , rather than melancholy, because otherwise it would be too emotionally overwhelming.(sometimes is, depending how much of it we let it affect us, in certain moment.)
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If you do not mind, I would like to recommend couple of films. I find them both to be excellent. If you guys find the time to see it, would be courious to hear your coments about it. The Oscar winner for 2014, foreign language film, 'The Great Beauty' https://youtu.be/koxRDhAQOpwMaybe the best film ever about
pressure society places on us to find a soulmate. 'The Lobster' from 2015.
https://youtu.be/vU29VfayDMw
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Pryso, you might be interested to hear this, Mokave trio with Glen Moore. https://youtu.be/7Qb7MRDcPRkhttps://youtu.be/pBWYdG9VSashttps://youtu.be/h30YPfkISg4I ve got three their albums, almost unintentionally, got first at the hi fi shop (its audioquest production) more than 25 years ago, liked it, gor the other two. Once when I was in london out of curiosity even went to a teching performance of their percussionist, Glen Velez and funny enough, there were 20 people perhaps...somehow I expected bigger crowd, so maybe that was the point that I changed my mind about pursuing a creer in jazz... |
Well, Orpheus, guess we can all say that 'Things aint what they used to be' https://youtu.be/rRK0AQX9rhohttps://youtu.be/9ux3HxLcEjIMel Rhyne, organ player on many Wes Montgomery albums, from 1960. album 'Organ-izing', together with Blue Mitchell, Johnny Griffin, Gene Harris, Albert Heath and Andy Simpkins Its possible that I have posted that abum before... |
Orpheus, check the Amazon, there is one edition for 7.5usd.
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Orpheus, I have no idea, why there aint more participants on ’our’ part of forum. From my experience I can say that Frogman could be right, I remember when the tone and words written here made me make a long pause.... Than again, now I tend to look to funny side of some of the posts, so instead of making me wonder about one’s sanity, more often I laugh.... But, I believe that people in general should not take themsellf so seriously... Perhaps, with more empathy would come more understanding... In that name, one song that I like, its not jazz or country....hope you all will like it....Solomon Burke and the Blind Boys of Alabama....’None of us are free’ https://youtu.be/88mEX5zv7JwThis one is good too...Ben Harper and the Blind Boys of Alabama....11th commandment& Well Well Well https://youtu.be/RPn8ivGUVG0?list=PLEB46B84DA0CD65DE |
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Orpheus, that is a really sad story, did it end well for you, somehow, somewhere, at the end? If you dont mind me asking? Ghosthouse, I could not open first Orpheus clip, to check whose on guitar, but some time ago I have posted first two albums of Vince Guaraldi, where he is joined with Eddie Duran on guitar. Here are couple of songs from that two albums for you to check and compare is it the same guy playing. https://youtu.be/-XWAqEG_uwkhttps://youtu.be/g0AiG4zFEMkIf he is the guy that you like, than you could check his music as well, from the same period. 'Jazz Guitarists' from 1957
Duran was 32 when he recorded Jazz Guitarist, his first album as a
leader in 1957. His sound and approach were deeply rooted in the bebop
tradition, with echoes of Tal Farlow. With Duran on this debut was
Howard Dudune—a cleantoned young clarinetist and Getz-derived tenor
saxophonist—with support from bassist Dean Reilly and drummer John
Markham.
https://youtu.be/r690ZKDfZaUhttps://youtu.be/Tt8_78NL-dAAlso,album from 1955. trio session with Ron Crotty and Vince Guaraldi. Crotty was a part of Dave Brubeck’s early groups and
trio produced some relaxed and swinging jazz.
Modern music from San Francisco https://youtu.be/lfNpRmod4eYhttps://youtu.be/gEEJNPuHb3QHope you will like it |
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Frogman, I am glad that you have so eloquently pointed some of the high points of West Coast Jazz.
For what is worth, I have noticed that I am buying more and more of such music, it has many hidden gems. Will post some as well.
Regarding Chet Baker, I did not like the article very much, but thats not important. Imho, aldo his playing had its ’limitations’, he has menaged to produce some of the most beautiful and haunting music in jazz, perhaps in music in general.
Furthermore I belive that that fact alone stand as something that cant be overlooked and also that cant be accidental.
So, for sure that my opinion and taste are subjective, but his music (or his interpretation) in some points stand above of anything simmilar that I might have heard
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Yes, it was surprise even for me, I had to take the cover to check who is playing on clarinet, first time I listened that album at home. Here is another album, I would dare to say better, in such style, from the same year. Bud Shank and Bob Cooper 'Blowin Country' https://youtu.be/V4SSjjrR2tE?list=PL35krVjjy6og4VV0DIKi730hYUUzwZgYijust in case if somebody cant open it https://youtu.be/yTk6NRSEQRwAs for the tv and papers, it may seem odd without them, at first, but if you try it for a week, I guarantee you will feel better. After all, if a man have love for facts,and knowledge in general, will not find them there... If I a may return the joke, hope you are not suggesting that I should watch Fox news to get the latest opinions on politics? As for the comments, I agree with you in sense that all participants should find a 'good measure' when expressing their views that might cause a bitter polemics with others who have different opinions on the same subject |
No matter which bias we might have, there is something called 'Ethics'.
We are lucky enough that some great minds took lot of time and effort to come up with some principles. So, if you dont mind, I will post some, from one 'German guy.' (perhaps Rok new the dude.....joke)
Kant characterized the
' Categorical Imperative',
as an objective, rationally necessary and unconditional principle that
we must always follow despite any natural desires or inclinations we
may have to the contrary. All specific moral requirements, according
to Kant, are justified by this principle, which means that all immoral
actions are irrational because they violate the CI.
Furthermore, he describes two subsidary principles...
The Universal Principle of Right, which governs issues about justice,
rights and external acts that can be coercively enforced, holds that
“Any action is right if it can coexist with
everyone’s freedom in accordance with a universal law, or if on
its maxim the freedom of choice of each can coexist with
everyone’s freedom in accordance with a universal law”
The Supreme Principle of the Doctrine of Virtue, which governs
questions about moral ends, attitudes, and virtue, requires us to
“act in accordance with a maxim of ends that it can be
a universal law for everyone to have”
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If we put obvious written prejudices about Germans a side, do you talk about 'American system' as something that exists in praxis?
Unfortunately, it seems that many Americans would object the way the systems is treating them and beter not to start what woud people from many different parts of the world would have to say about that 'system' as well. Not only in present time....
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Frogman, we obviously come from a very different background. It is interesting for me to read some of your thoughts, believe that they are said in good intention and spirit, but fortunately (if i may say that without any offense to you or to anyone else) the secularization (at least in Europe) has become constitutional standard.
We may share some thoughts for pro and con, certainly I would be curious to hear more from you, as you seem to be educated person, so in a way it is surprise to me.
Rok, please do not feel that I try to patronise you in any way or form, but its kind of difficult to discuss ethical principles if you put down the conversation as a ’conflict’ between the ’Germans’ and ’Americans’.
I assure you, that fact has no influence on substance we are trying to talk about.
Furthermore, my comments about certain ’injustices’ are pointed toward the system ( read money and power) that are creating them and I realy cant understand why any citizen ( you) has a need to identify himself with everything american when in fact he has nothing to do with it, except for the fact that you share same geographical origin.
Wrong doings are not ment to be compared or justified, no matter from where they come from. Just take a look on the list of all american foreign interventions in last hundred or more years, or at least try to imagine what could be done for your society if all that money was spend or invested otherwise
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Frogman, hopefully you know by know that I have no intention to offend you, or anyone else by that matter.
But, it seems to me that nobody has read that quote from Kant.Please, if you dont mind me saying that again, read that post above carefully.
To cut long story short, I have no objections toward any of your statements, or personal beliefs, but we should agree that they are 'personal'.
In that regard, looking at diversity of people (in some state) and diversity of their values and beliefs, we must agree that we can use only one universal rule as principle.
That rule (untill we come up with something better) is law.
It has to be univerasal and to provide equal and just treatment to all its citizens.
To acomplish that, we must put a side any particularity that might give 'better treatment' to some group over another, meaning, there are no 'priviliges' over race,religion, sex or political orientation. Even more those 'particularitys' cant be presented as 'higher ground' in goverment. Period.
You can be deeply religious or you can prefer this over that, but those views can not be implemented toward everyone as law or rule, because we are all different. It is very simple notion.
Of course, you might see my views as biased. I would call them ethical.
In any case I am ready to disscus it
Single malt is an excellent choice. I prefer at least three brands, Lagavulin, Laphroag and Ardbeg.
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Frogman, I feel obliged to furher explain my stand, so when ever you feel that you are in mood, or when your schedule allows you, would like to ’clear’ any potential missunderstandings.
Orpheus, since his (Frogman) last post is addressed to me, I guess I would be first to to react if I felt that he was ’off track’. But, I have to admit, that even when I desagree with his views, I have nothing to object about the way Frogman express them.
So, if your intention is not only pure provocation, I would say that there is nothing to be said about it.
With all honesty, if I did not know better, I could easily ’catch’ myself trying to answer to some of Rok’s posts, but in all this time I have learn better not do so, because I am not really sure is he joking or not.
So, no matter how ’close minded’ some of his(Rok’s)posts might look to be,
I must admit that sometimes he displays great sense of humor, which is always sign of intelligence and I have choosen to believe that he is always joking....
So,instead of picking on Frogman, I would appreciate your opinion on the subject, if you have something to add, or we should just continue with our usual affairs, as I am sure that this subject will arise before than later...
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Let’s try to see things from other perspective. Question for Orpheus and Rok, others are welcome to share their opinion too.... Do you think that jazz was influnced with music from some other part of the world? (if somehow, the notion that has african influences is bothering you) As
for myself, I could not say for sure, but only because I have so little
knowledge about african music, and having in mind that all art is
’conected’ in some way, I would not opose that thought so strongly.... Here is some great brazilian music, played by Dizzy, from 1975.....is that jazz? Somebody could ask the question what were the influences that helped create ’brazilian’ music as we know it.... Were there by any chnace some african influences? Could they find the way to jazz by that route? As you can see, evertything is conected, one way or another.... Back to music....Dizzy Album is called ’Bahiana’ https://youtu.be/PC1Y54_YR7Yhttps://youtu.be/iNl-UdAUvVAMaybe somebody should have explained some things to McCoy Tyner, as well.... Becuse, the title of this composition is 'confusing'... 'Afro Blue' with Latin Jazz All stars, album is from (think)1998. https://youtu.be/6rqIAWSorjs
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I found that article to be quite informative, saw nothing that could be considered as lie or perhaps someone's agenda?
Correct me if I am wrong?
Just a thought, I believe that nobody thinks that 'bop' or any other art form 'came out of the blue' ?
Or do you?
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