Forget? Impossible. Fabulous clip. Joe Henderson was a genius. Thanks for that.
Jazz for aficionados
Jazz for aficionados
I'm going to review records in my collection, and you'll be able to decide if they're worthy of your collection. These records are what I consider "must haves" for any jazz aficionado, and would be found in their collections. I wont review any record that's not on CD, nor will I review any record if the CD is markedly inferior. Fortunately, I only found 1 case where the CD was markedly inferior to the record.
Our first album is "Moanin" by Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers. We have Lee Morgan , trumpet; Benney Golson, tenor sax; Bobby Timmons, piano; Jymie merrit, bass; Art Blakey, drums.
The title tune "Moanin" is by Bobby Timmons, it conveys the emotion of the title like no other tune I've ever heard, even better than any words could ever convey. This music pictures a person whose down to his last nickel, and all he can do is "moan".
"Along Came Betty" is a tune by Benny Golson, it reminds me of a Betty I once knew. She was gorgeous with a jazzy personality, and she moved smooth and easy, just like this tune. Somebody find me a time machine! Maybe you knew a Betty.
While the rest of the music is just fine, those are my favorite tunes. Why don't you share your, "must have" jazz albums with us.
Enjoy the music.
I'm going to review records in my collection, and you'll be able to decide if they're worthy of your collection. These records are what I consider "must haves" for any jazz aficionado, and would be found in their collections. I wont review any record that's not on CD, nor will I review any record if the CD is markedly inferior. Fortunately, I only found 1 case where the CD was markedly inferior to the record.
Our first album is "Moanin" by Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers. We have Lee Morgan , trumpet; Benney Golson, tenor sax; Bobby Timmons, piano; Jymie merrit, bass; Art Blakey, drums.
The title tune "Moanin" is by Bobby Timmons, it conveys the emotion of the title like no other tune I've ever heard, even better than any words could ever convey. This music pictures a person whose down to his last nickel, and all he can do is "moan".
"Along Came Betty" is a tune by Benny Golson, it reminds me of a Betty I once knew. She was gorgeous with a jazzy personality, and she moved smooth and easy, just like this tune. Somebody find me a time machine! Maybe you knew a Betty.
While the rest of the music is just fine, those are my favorite tunes. Why don't you share your, "must have" jazz albums with us.
Enjoy the music.
Showing 50 responses by frogman
Literally just landed back in NY after a 15 hr flight from Taipei. I will offer some thoughts on the conducting question and others after I regroup and get my inner clock turned around. As wonderful and interesting as traveling always is, and speaking of great singers, I will let this clip say it all for me: https://youtu.be/TRUjr8EVgBg |
It should be noted that Lucky Thompson was one of the very first to play the soprano saxophone in jazz; and he played it with a very sweet and relaxed sound not unlike his tenor playing. While Coltrane made a big splash with his recording of “My Favorite Things”, the recording most listeners associate with the soprano saxophone, Thompson was playing and recording on the soprano well before Coltrane did. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4SSc8N6jXE A favorite record by one of my very favorite female vocalists is an early (1948) Dinah Washington recording which features the Lucky Thompson Orchestra and some beautiful playing by Thompson in a style very reminiscent of Coleman Hawkins: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0RMt1QJQoZU |
I do mind and I will try once again to explain why. First, the thread is intended to be about music and I think that this is why most visit and participate. Politics and social consciousness topics sometimes relate to the subject of music and I think it is usually fairly obvious when it makes sense and is appropriate to delve into those areas as they relate to the subject of music. The problem is that not everyone shares the same political point of view and these topics can be very provocative since they sometimes touch upon issues that are very personal. It is highly unlikely that these complicated topics can be discussed in a productive and meaningful way on a forum such as this and that the limitations of a forum like this and limitations of our own writing skills can do justice to these important and complicated topics. So, it becomes little more than an exercise in self-indulgence, assumptions, and proclamations or insinuations about the moral superiority or higher level of compassion of one individual over another; as if it were possible, given how little we really know about each other, to make truly meaningful comments. The irony for me personally is that to not be able to recognize the futility of all this points to an absence of depth of thought on the very topics on which anyone of us may be trying to claim the higher ground. The end result of all this is, as I have pointed out before, that there probably has not been a single instance when going down that road has not resulted in arguing, contentiousness and deleted posts. Personally, I wold much rather spend my energy discussing the music. |
pryso, re your game. Cover of another tune from KOB. As in your G Russell clip (which I really like; very funky) in which the horn section plays Miles’ solo from the original “So What”, on this one each of the solos on the original “Freddie Freeloader” are scatted by a different singer. Bill Evans’ solo by Bobby McFerrin, Miles/Al Jarreau, Trane/Jon Hendricks and Cannonball/George Benson: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=blOHUcM The original: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RPfFhfSuUZ4 Another cover that I like. Manhattan Transfer’s cover of the classic and Coleman Hawkins’ milestone (pun intended) recording of “Body And Soul”: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ofbnfmlhw4o The original: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zUFg6HvljDE nsp, thanks for your comments re Thompson/Hawkins. I chose “Body And Soul” in part as part of my response to those comments. First, I think we should consider which Coleman Hawkins we are talking about. Like most great players his style (and Thompson’s) evolved quite a bit over the years. His solo on “Body And Soul” is considered a classic and a very important solo because it points to the move in the evolution of jazz toward bebop and away from swing which is where Hawkins’ style was rooted. His handling of the fairly complex harmonic changes of that tune was revolutionary at the time. That solo was recorded in 1939 and his career had started in the early 20’s. He was firmly rooted in the swing tradition. While much has been made of his stylistic move toward bebop after losing popularity due to his dated style (swing), to my ears he never became a great bebopper and always retained the sound and rhythmic feel of the swing players. Lucky Thompson was a younger player who came up during the era that bebop was already firmly grounded as a popular style. Your point is well taken in that Thompson never really followed the Charlie Parker bebop mold and instead developed a modern style that was his own. Whenever I hear Hawkins (even his later stuff when he recorded with known beboppers) I always hear a player rooted in the swing style; whereas, when I hear Thompson I hear a player rooted in a more modern era eventhough there are fewer obvious “bebopisms” in his playing. I think Thompson was one of the most underappreciated players in jazz. You are correct in your comment about how Trane did more to popularize the soprano. That is kind of my point about Thompson not being appreciated enough. To me Lucky sounds much more modern than Hawk: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kTMmWaZf2Sc https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LORFZYMD6r8 |
You know. I have always liked that even better than the original. Another favorite co we: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LRbtvRQUi8w |
**** The OP should be able to say what is, and what is not, appropriate for this thread. **** He did....in his OP....jazz. Now, while I would disagree with the idea that a thread started on a public forum with a stated purpose has a sort of built-in rule that the OP determines the path of the thread no matter what and concerns of others be dammned, even when that path has title to do with the stated purpose, that certainly is one way to approach participation in a thread; so be it. However, is it inappropriate for participants to disagree with that approach and to say so? I don’t think so. As you say...freedom of speech. No? **** I feel obligated to show him the light. **** Exactly my point. |
Exactly, no one is stopping anyone from anything and you state the obvious. As far as the “strawman” allusion goes, I fail to see your point. Your fallback “straw man” thing is getting a little tired, btw. **** The OP should be able to say what is, and what is not, appropriate for this thread **** Who said he can’t? Want to talk “strawman”? If all the bs that ensues when the thread gets derailed by the controversial comments does not constitute “altering the path of the thread” then I don’t know what does. Perhaps you enjoy the controversy and the ensuing negativity. I don’t. |
Gee, thanks, O-10, that certainly was OP-like of you. See, and there we have it. An opportunity, as the “OP”, to rise above the fray; but, no, a choice is made instead to add to the nonsense and unnecessarily escalate the negativity with a sophomoric reaction. Nice! $400/hr, btw. Rok, you are missing the point. Besides, it’s all been settled 😊 : **** Alex, you and Frogman are 100% correct, posts of that nature on this thread are a waste of time.**** - O-10. |
Hah! Just yesterday morning I was awakened at around 5:00 AM by one of the most amazing sounds one will ever hear, the sound of one hundred frogs in the throes of ecstacy during their annual mating ritual in my upstate NY pond. Talk about "noise makers"! Nature’s noise makers, so all is forgiven. The poor little bast@rds must be confused as hell since their mating orgy was followed by six inches of snow! In late April! Normal weather cycles have been very erratic this year and not only do I have confused frogs, but a very disappointed wife since her precious daffodils may not survive the unexpected snow. Still, beautiful as heck up here. With all that is going on and in NYC in particular, all live performance coming to a screeching halt, schools closed and my wife getting the go-ahead to work from home we decided to "get the hell out of Dodge" and hunker down at our place up state. Internet service has always been dodgy up here and due to the "non-essential" work stoppage mandates our scheduled FIOS installation was cancelled. After a lot of prodding I managed to convince the local provider to let me do the indoor connections myself since they will not enter homes, so we are finally up and running. The previously very limited bandwidth has been reserved for mostly my wife’s work and son’s remote schooling. I must say that it has been refreshing staying off the internet. My time has been spent practicing, cooking, riding my tractor and digging in the dirt. Speaking of (band)width.....all that cooking!! ☺️ Thanks for reaching out guys....and babe. Hope everyone is well during this crazy time. Thanks for the music; I’ll be returning the favor shortly. Speaking of babes. Rok, that is Camille Thurman. Her stint with Wynton’s band as the first full-time female member was the talk of the town. Not sure it is permanent. Nice player. Not sure she is on the level of the rest of the band (yet?). I like her singing best. https://youtu.be/4QZ7xb5_e6k Think she likes Ella? https://youtu.be/jC4Ecn7eDuU Best to all. |
You guys crack me up. The transparency is really kind of funny. I appreciate the fact that you guys think so much of my influence over the goings on here, but sorry to disappoint you, I have none (of that kind, anyway). O, you do a fine job of drawing yourself in; and, no, Rok I have never called the censors on you. Now, do either of you guys have anything interesting to say about music? Pryso’s game? Give it a whirl. Ozzy!!! **** On this forum, the person that answers or responds to an attacking post gets censured. Never the attacker. **** Hmm, interesting comment. Let’s see.... whose posts is it that have been censored lately? |
pryso, I enjoyed that “Round Midnight”. “Film Noir” vibe. Thanks. Here’s an unusual cover of a jazz classic. This band sizzles! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pQJGeKWNDis Couldn’t agree more re Rahsaan. My favorite Rahsaan recording. Different, but pure genius! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=n8k3baNeGZo |
Schubert, everything is connected indeed! I know Delhi well; less than twenty minutes drive from where I am on top of Palmer Hill in Andes. Nice little town, Delhi. Interesting you should mention hunting. Been talking about it with my son. Turkey season starts May 1. Deer will have to wait till the Fall. Never hunted deer, but working on getting up the nerve to do so. Still have memories of those two big beautiful eyes looking at me as, after one hour, I managed to pull in that seven foot swordfish when fishing off the bay in Zihuatanejo. I felt awful....for a little while. Delicious! |
Yes, good to see you back mary_ jo. And, yes, a few hiccups. I think they have stopped; for now. “Hipo”, “hiccup” in Spanish. Interesting how both words can be onomatopoeia in two different languages while still sounding similar and with similar rhythm. Great Louie/Sinatra clip; no hiccups there. Same language from both singers, but two different rhythm feels. Fascinating how at 1:13 when Louie starts to sing the tempo of the music seems to slow down. It doesn’t really, but Louis’ singing is so relaxed and “in the pocket” compared to Sinatra who sings slightly ahead of the beat of the band that things seem to slow down. On the dance floor and according to the Urban Dictionary that would be a classic case of “WMRD”; and Sinatra had it less than most 😊. Thanks for the great clips. pryso, you have no idea what memories that Jeff Beck clip brings back; some better to keep private. He was still using a pick back then. What an amazing and expressive player he is. bluesy41, great stuff. Like Jeff Beck, another amazing player who did things on his intrument that shouldn’t be possible. How is it possible to slide from one note to another on a B3? It isn’t, but Jimmy Smith somehow can create that illusion. And what a great feel-good sense of swing. Love it. jkittlesen, one of my very favorite records. How sad for a player like this to be gone at age 25! Another favorite from that great record: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oQvsXgfEdo0 |
Bowie, “Papa’s.....”: First Bowie clip posted here recently that didn’t do it for me. Somehow, being used to the “seriousness” of the kind of groove that James Brown and his band could set up doesn’t mesh with the humor that Bowie tries to bring to the tune. We don’t need no stinking humor!!! : https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QE5D2hJhacU |
Nah, plenty there! And, there I was, thinking that you would flattered that I quoted you. I thought it was pretty funny 😊 . Now, re the Bowie clip, and speaking of quoting. I recently quoted someone who said, on the subject of musical quotes in a solo, “I don’t want to hear Woody Woodpecker when I’m trying to channel Trane”. Hey, btw, and speaking of Trane, I’ve been meaning to post this. This solo by Trane has got to be on my list of top ten solos ever. Pryso’s “So What’ clip has led to my listening (again) to KOB a few times lately. When thinking about Trane there is a tendency to think of him as a ferocious and often “notey” soloist; he had a whole lot to say. His solo (@2:27) on “Blue In Green” from KOB kills me every time I hear it. Beautifully expressive with an amazing simplicity. When he enters it’s like the sun rising in the morning. Incredible. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PoPL7BExSQU |
But, how did you like “Blue In Green”? Disqualified? Anyone who likes George Russel and Teagarden is alright in my book. If only I knew just what an aficionado is. I don’t like silk robes and I don’t smoke a pipe. I do like bunnies, ‘though 😊. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=46hd6DZS0ww |
pryso, your record prioritization “system” makes sense. **** variety is the key word -- enough difference in other releases to make more than one worthwhile for me. **** And sometimes the variety goes to places we don’t like. Curious, do you consider this record to be an “earlier recording” and pre-“sheets of sound”. I find that Trane fans draw the line at different points of his evolution. https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PL4ypuAMic-Gjk5uhLk2jxg acman3, nice record. The most that I have ever enjoyed Cecil Payne’s playing. Thanks! I am hoping when you have the liner notes you can solve this little mystery. At first I thought there was an uncredited alto player on the session eventhough Cecil Payne is listed on alto which is rare unto itself. On the second tune one can here an alto along with trumpet and baritone playing the melody. Then later, at 20:14 the alto starts to play a one chorus solo before the baritone finishes his solo (several choruses). They overdubbed the alto unless there was a mystery alto player. mary_jo, that’s quite a challenge! I would take you up on it, but here there is only one person with a reputation for dancing skill and that would be our OP. O-10 has been known to bust a few moves while hanging with Saharan tribes. Even so, I would much prefer to not dance seperately. I don’t have big feet; much to my wife’s chagrin 🤔. |
Thanks for your comments on Trane and SOS (😉), pryso. As I mentioned I have been revisiting KOB lately; not that very much time ever goes by without listening to it. What a great record and deserving of all the notoriety! Too bad that George Russell does not always get credit for inspiring this music. There is a certain mood throughout the record that to me is a little mysterious and melancholic even in the uptempo tunes. Nothing is perfect, but this record is nearly perfect. Of course, and as always, our own individual tastes and points of reference dictate our reactions to artists. There is one aspect of KOB that has always been like a little voice in my head saying “if only Miles had chosen X player instead”. This is a very subjective observation and reaction and surely there will be disagreement. There is one player in that record’s amazing lineup that, as great as his playing is, plays in a style and with a mood that somehow doesn’t always quite fit into that feeling of mystery and melancholy that permeates the record. To be clear, if forced to choose, I would probably pick this same player as my all-time overall favorite on his particular instrument. Yet, on this record when he plays his musical persona seems to cause a change in mood (hint...somewhat less so on the uptempo tunes) that I’m mixed about. Some listeners would consider this a good thing and another example of Miles’ genius when choosing a lineup. Sometimes I appreciate the change in mood and sometimes I don’t. Wondering if anyone has a similar reaction. No right or wrong. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qNcPwrfK9tY |
Good question, Rok. The one that always come to mind and my other favorite alto player, Charlie Mariano, but probably not enough of a star around the time KOB was recorded: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B-WOZA-sIJo https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5tqN5R0h-0o https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd-THvFsTbE Great comments, pryso and I don’t disagree; and “reflection” is a better description. Still....sometimes Cannonball’s “perkiness” seems a bit out of place for me. |
Miles whispers, Evans broods, Trane searches and Cannonball preaches 😎 As bluesy41 points out Cannonball and Trane worked well together. One of my favorite records and one which gets little attention: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OgdnbJ5smR4 |
**** Mariano may have been a good choice not sure he would have been better than Cannonball; **** nsp, I’m not sure either, but the mood of most of his playing is closer to what I feel is the overall mood of the record; if that were to be a priority. Always hard to argue against Cannonball. Loved “Smoke Gets In Your Eyes”. Beautiful and very expressive playing. Thanks for that! Toshiko’s “So What”, didn’t do much for me. That drummer.....!?! Great clips, Alex and your description of Getz leaves little to add and I agree about he and Desmond re melancholy. Very familiar with that great Cannonball/Evans record, but the Getz clips and “Horizon” is new to me. Loved it! I have to look for that record; one of the few by Getz that I don’t have. Fantastic player. |
Post some of your favorite music. Btw, to be clear, I have no objection of any kind to Tidal or streaming in general. We are creatures of habit I suppose and with a couple of thousand LPs and Cds including some I haven’t listened to yet, it’s my comfort zone. Frankly, I am more than a little intrigued by streaming services. Alex is good person to recommend some other great Chet Baker. |
**** ...the what ifs **** Exactly. Desmond Blue is a gem. Speaking of musical attitude in a player (Cannonball), for me the reason that this record is so good is that the musical attitude of Desmond works very well with the production. Not surprising being a player who said he wanted “to sound like a dry martini”. I love the orchestrations and the way he interacts with them in his solos. The Getz clip is fabulous! Thanks. One of the best live things posted here. “I Remember Clifford” killed me. Amazing story teller. pryso, **** That may have had some influence for his habit of making introductions with more than simply the song title. **** I like that. I know his history, but never made the connection. You’re probably right. In a way this goes hand in hand with his musical attitude. Gorgeous Bill Evans that definitely could fit into the KOB vibe. Another great live clip: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HE9bRhUwELE https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=beCGdmrP8Xc |
nsp, Wynton Kelly is the piano player on the first clip. Then on Hackensack one can see Kelly get up and hand the piano over to Oscar Peterson. Re Coltrane. Clearly we all have a favorite period in his career, but I enjoy just about everything he did. I may not want to listen to his out stuff very often, but every once in a while I’ll be in the mood for it and I find it puts his other work in a certain perspective. Btw, one of the things I like about those clips with Getz is that for whatever reason his tone was incredible at that point in time. Maybe a great reed that day 😊 |
Love Zoot! What a beautiful and effortless tone and swing feel. I hear Lester Young more than anyone in his playing as well as Webster as nsp points out. Another of Woody Herman’s “Four Brothers”. I started to post “A Time For Love” which I posted a while back (one of my favorite Johnny Mandel tunes) but nsp beat me to it. Gorgeous playing. Anyone remember this, or is it me just me getting old? Fantastic debut record by one of the most unusual pop singers that ever was; featuring Zoot on some tracks: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UNnwUQ8Z-nc |
nsp, yes he was. The Four Brothers consisted of Stan Getz, Zoot Sims, Herbie Steward and Serge Chaloff. Unusual saxophone section in that it was three tenors and a baritone (no alto). All except Herbie Steward has been discussed here and all played in a generally similar style; Lester Young influence with that that light vibrato at the end of phrases. Here’s a possible little mystery. Two different downloads of the same 1950 recording. The second (with better sound quality...not a hint 🤔) is noticeably faster and a full half step higher in pitch (gotta love analog!). Which do you think feels correct? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QHkdPQWG7fk https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=znQ6bCQhcc0 Here’s something did Steward forty years later (1992) showing a move toward a somewhat more modern style with a little more edge in the tone: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X8oHMZIuUyk pryso, as you may know, I like big bands a lot. That Jones/Lewis is a favorite and that is Thad Jones’ best known composition. Beautiful tune. When I saw the link to you San Diego jazz station my mind went to Newark’s Jazz88, WBGO 88.3. A treasure of a jazz station it is another worth checking out on line. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=F1jTqWLrzjI |
Great clips all; thanks! nsp, nice Chaloff! Definitely someone I need to listen to more. Re the two H Steward clips: I wasn’t sure. I was tempted to think the one with better sound quality was the correct one, but it sounded too fast; rushed. The slower version is in the key of C and the faster one in the key of Db. Both are viable keys for the tenor saxophone, so that doesn’t help much. I think the answer can possibly be found here: Tubby Hayes playing the tune on flute in the key of C (likely to be the original key of the tune). So, the correct one is probably the slower version; inferior sound and all: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uK5TKEhYlQY More Tubby Hayes: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WjNKsGaPxzE |
Waldemar, no rules broken. IMO, since you are concerned with the finer points of the sq then a speed corrected version should be a priority. Some good info on choices here: http://forums.naimaudio.com/topic/best-sounding-digital-version-of-kind-of-blue?nc=1 |
We recently discussed favorite female jazz vocalists. I didn’t mention nor post Elis Regina since she is technically not a “jazz singer”; although much Brazilian music comes very close to being able to be considered to be “jazz”. I know, I know, Rok. I have posted her previously as she is on my “top three” favorite female vocalists. There is an honesty and absence of affectation in her singing that I absolutely love: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FKVOaHa4jl8 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zS64Qy6774Q Btw, pjw, James Carter has been discussed here previously, but you’re right, not as baritone player. Please post some favorite Carter. |
pryso, wonderful Mulligan clips. Thank you for those. All interesting and all great with one possible exception (for me); and I stress “possible”. The pairing of Monk and Mulligan is certainly a very interesting one and Mulligan rises to the challenge and plays in a way that is not quite what I’m used to hearing from him. Two very different concepts that only in comparison to the musical “simpatico” in the pairings of Mulligan/Baker or Mulligan/Getz does it become apparent. Still, great playing from both. A little like bit like the tofu sauté that I made last night 😊. I decided to throw in some pears that were about to go to waste. It worked!, but definitely unusual and, it could be argued, not quite right. Great clips! Along similar lines, acman3. Never could understand the attraction of Ernie Watts in a straight-ahead setting. Fantatstic studio saxophone player and soloist in a pop-ish setting, but his straight ahead playing drives me up a wall with that nasal and whiny tone. But, I love Charlie Haden who is one of my favorite musicians and he likes Watts. So, who am I to say? There is obviously something there that I’m not hearing. I’ll keep an open mind about it. The kind of thing that I think he does best, imo (on alto this time): https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZB0Hf7p4zvI |
Rok, in case it wasn’t clear you my comment was only meant to be humorous. Apology if it came across differently. More Elis and to your comment re Brazilian music and jazz: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cJTiRh3sNS4 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0A3Eui7JaA8 |
Well, Gato started his “jazz” career in the avant-garde jazz scene before he became popular with his fusion meets world music meets smooth Jazz whatever one wants to call it-recordings. Definitely not jazz in my book although I rather like some of it. I may have posted this recently: https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_l7jQIUt0xolyL1v0m4tEvLfwJ-Hu3qiPg |
Love my tractor, mary_jo; and I’m the cook in the family. You’re right. Actually, there are many parallels between playing music and cooking. Haven’t tried frog legs ‘though.....can’t do it 😊 https://youtu.be/hkyJQcmVtZQ https://youtu.be/rTEb5cKQOg0 https://youtu.be/ovaY1KlQRi4 |
One of my favorite “newbies”: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=obKaDCZitNs https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kEupMJujIVY |
pjw, thanks for the recommendation and clips; I enjoyed them. I heard JC live at the Village Vanguard early on and enjoyed his playing. He is even more impressive now. No question that JC could hold his own with some of the old timers. In fact, I believe he is a traditionalist at heart more than anything. When he plays he evokes the style of “old timers” like Arnett Cobb, Don Byas and Hawkins with that highly stylized and very robust tenor sound. What is unique about him is that he combines that style and sound with “techniques” on the saxophone that hadn’t been explored nor mastered to that degree by the old timers. He has great control of the extreme high register and it’s almost odd to hear playing in that range combined with the “old timer” tone approach. He double and triple tongues; practically unheard of back then. He growls and slap tongues. He plays with a tremendous amount of exuberance which, as you point out, is considered by some to be merely “showing off”. I’m not quite sure what showing off means, but that level of exuberance practically at all times is why I am mixed about his playing; eventhough he is a very exciting player and certainly knows how to appeal to an audience. A lot to be said for that. I like JC; a lot. I just wish he would do a lot less of that stuff. Moreover, I don’t believe he has the fluidity and command of complex harmony that some of the “newbies” have. A lot of what he plays is relatively simple harmonically and he is not the kind of player that can rip through “Giant Steps” the way that a player like Eric Alexander can. Different players bring different things to the table. I enjoy most a less exuberant and more harmonically disciplined way of playing. Still, I like that a player like JC is keeping alive a style that is not always screaming “Coltrane!”. Another “newbie” with a sound that evokes some of the old timers, but with a modern harmonic concept: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4gTzj1EicAU https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8wnETzFQ2ok https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YebOyztBhwA |
Good question and I personally agree with your criteria. However, as concerns this particular discussion, since it was pjw who first used the term and who suggested that aficionados were stuck with players from the 1940-1970 era ........ **** many jazz aficionados seem to get "stuck" in the 1940-1970 era sax players and never give the up and coming modern players a listen. Sure I agree that Coltrane, Rollins, Dexter Gordon, Sonny Stitt et al were masters of their profession but besides a handful like Lou Donaldson (who I have seen 7 times), Wayne Shorter (2 times) they are all gone now and I don’t think Rollins can play live anymore. Give the newbies a listen you may be impressed. **** |
**** When I posted this brother Clarke a year or so ago, everyone started cries of outrage, boo!!!, hiss!!!! etc....... even worst than with the Bey Sisters. Now he is beloved by all. Go figure. **** I recently mentioned how much I love Elis Regina for the absence of affectation in her singing. Rachel Ferrell’s singing is the opposite of that. I seem to recall that the issue back then was not Clarke; it was Ferrell herself with her over the top vocal histrionics. From the archives: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/jazz-for-aficionados?page=39 Also in that page from the “archives” can be found commentary about how musical tastes change over time. So true. Back then (the archives) this comment (re Wynton) would have been unthinkable: **** Greatest Jazz trumpet players? The list would have to be very long for him to be on it. **** There was a time that ANY criticism directed at Wynton’s jazz playing was met with a lot of resistance. Rok, not picking on you, but just using this to make a point about the “old vs new” (old timers vs newbies) issue and that of changing tastes. If anyone of us thinks that our individual assessment of a jazz artist’s ultimate worth or standing in the grand scheme of things (overall history of the music) is not influenced to some degree by what that that artist REPRESENTS in ways other than strictly musical I think we would be kidding ourselves. **** But he is so much more to jazz than a trumpet player **** Exactly. As nsp pointed out: **** We all hear differently , have different life experiences and come from different backgrounds. **** Music from different eras represent different things to each of us due to the above. A certain era in the music’s history may give us a sense of nostalgia. It may remind us of what our parents listened to (could be a negative or positive) or what was going on in society as a whole at the time which may be something that has special significance to us. We all know that jazz is sadly less popular today than it was in the past. However, I submit that if one considers today’s level of overall activity in jazz to that during its heyday, the number of players making “significant contributions” (to quote Rok again) to the music and who are pushing the envelope of its evolution is, percentage-wise, about the same as it ever was. As has been pointed out many times jazz evolves whether we like where it’s going or not. Some of us like where it’s going and some of us don’t; this based on the factors mentioned above. Nothing wrong with not liking where it’s going or with being “stuck” (I don’t mind) in a certain prior era. I think the important thing is to not be dismissive of the current era and its great players as necessarily “inferior” to those of the past when in many cases it is a matter of their being different and appealing to a different sensibility. Imo, to not appreciate and embrace this simple fact is, ironically, to not understand something very basic about what the art form is about. Players like Stanley Clarke, Chick Corea, Joe Lovano and others are phenomenal musicians who in some ways are or have taken the music to places that the greats from the past never did nor could have and I frankly don’t see the point in always comparing the new to the old at the expense of appreciating what it is that the new are bringing to the table. Again, re the issue of what players REPRESENT: **** Miles once said, there is nothing a person can do on trumpet that Louis Armstrong has not done already. This means, making a significant contribution gets harder as time goes on. **** It probably does get harder, but it continues to happen. However, Miles’ admiration for and understanding of Armstrong’s huge contribution as one of the grandaddies of jazz and all that this REPRESENTS caused him to utter one of the biggest bits of hyperbole ever. We all know how great Louis was. His playing was like a distillation of all that is what jazz is ultimately all about: telling a story with music and he did it with a simplicity (“absence of affectation”) and swagger that still sets the standard for some. But, the truth is that there is much that players have “done on the trumpet” since Louis that he could not even get close to doing. He couldn’t have played bebop like Dizzy, nor the blues like Lee Morgan nor abstract like Miles himself. It sounds nice to suggest that he did, but it’s not so. Music reflects the time of its creation and in many ways it was a simpler time back then. Rok, send me the royalties bill for quoting you so many times 😊 |