Rok, **** define Classical training **** For starters, let’s try it this way. Just a few who had extensive Classical training: Oscar Peterson Phil Woods Eric Dolphy Freddie Hubbard Cannonball Adderley Bill Evans Donald Byrd Keith Jarrett Bob Berg Michael Brecker Chick Corea Phil Woods Eddie Gomez Nina Simone Anthony Davis Wynton Marsalis Some related comments from “your man” that you may appreciate: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oGo9_YSbPYINot as directly relevant, but this is why I love Wynton; great mind: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oUaLc1zabVo |
I really like the way he sings “Tenderly” (in fact, I really like the way he sings period) and would put it a notch above “Breezin” in the “good” from his later over-produced studio offerings. Less of that era’s disco vibe that makes me cringe; particularly on the title tune. For some truly good Benson: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3c6yArVkXgI |
I’ll get back to you with a more detailed (and obvious) answer. Re Wynton: Don’t blame me if you bruise your rump. C’mon now, go over any and all my comments re Wynton. I have always been very consistent. I feel and have always felt (and said so) that he is a great spokesman for jazz and music in general and a great educator; as well as band leader. Those aren’t the things that I have an issue with. Pretty amazing individual.
|
**** There is always the 10% that don’t get the memo. ****
I like Dee Dee, but what was she thinking trying to keep up with that knucklehead? Almost comical. Snow in New Orleans? 😉 |
Brilliant, acman3! That’s it! Impressive.
Rok, ok, Geller....maybe; although he has been discussed here and is pretty well known. I’ll give you that one. But, Frank Wess, Jimmy Heath??? Who the hell are they?!?!?! I hope I’m misinterpreting your comment 😎
Btw, it’s tenor, alto, baritone, tenor, alto; per acman3’s answer.
Thanks for playing. |
Very, very nice, lohe. Big Benny Carter fan here and this one is new to me. What a great arranger Benny Carter was! Thanks, and welcome to the thread!
OK, you jazz “Aficionados”, put your “money” where your mouth is; let’s see what you got. Five well known saxophone players in a typical saxophone section setting. They each take a solo. What’s the order of the solos? Hint: the players are: Benny Carter, Herb Geller, Frank Wess, Jimmy Heath and Joe Temperley (the picture accompanying the link is not of the players on the session).
lohe, sorry, you can’t play since you presumably have the record and hence the answer; but please confirm the answers. Contestants, don’t bother searching for clues on line, there ain’t any (that I could find) except for personnel lists. lohe, if my answer is wrong (it’s not), I’ll eat my copy of “Breezin”. Well, the jacket, anyway.
Take a shot. All in good fun. |
Fantastic! Required viewing; thanks.
”You can only drive one at a time”
”Coltrane practiced 25 hours a day”
”Every generation has great players”
|
|
|
And, btw, from left to right: Joe Henderson, Jerry Dodgion , Jerome Richardson, Eddie Daniels, Pepper Adams. Not a bad bunch 😎
|
I’m old school; my kids laugh at me because whenever an electronic device acts up I bang on it or kick it to see if it fixes the problem. I’ve tried kicking my iPad, but it keeps slipping into a different channel. Let me try it again....there, I think it worked....back to regular programming: I think I posted this once before. One of the greatest saxophone section features; this one demonstrating Thad Jones’ wonderful arranging skills. Roland Hanna sounds fabulous: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZLvqXFddu0(Btw, pryso, that is Eddie Daniels on fourth tenor; he is also a fantastic tenor and flute player) Studio version of the same chart. Very, very different approach, tempo and feel than the live version; this from the same musicians playing the same chart. For anyone who thinks that because the music is written down it’s always going to be the same: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lU-TsZ0XnRM |
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2H7NZ0GNIIEThere! It worked! Duke: Fabulous! 27 (!) choruses by Paul Gonzalves. Besides being a amazing musical feat, it should not go unnoticed what a feat of physical endurance it was. Special moment in jazz history. And you’re right about Duke’s reed section; very unique sound. What was special about the way that Duke and Strayhorn wrote for that reed section was that the writing was not generic. That is not intended as a criticism of other reed sections which were written for to emphasize blend and cohesion; like a vocal group harmonizing as you correctly pointed out. Duke wrote for his reed section in a way that capitalized on and highlighted each individual player’s unique tone and particular musical strength. One of the things that I liked most about that reed section’s sound was the prominence of the bottom as played by Harry Carney; whereas most other reed sections have an obvious emphasis on the high “lead” sound. |
One of Basie’s signature charts played by a band of Basie alumni (and others) and led by Frank Wess. One of the hardest things for a band to do is to be tight and swing at a very slow tempo. This chart has been done by many different bands and often they end up sounding ragged when trying to play it this slow. This rendition is amazing with beautiful blend. Check out Snooky Young’s trumpet solo; a model of simplicity and soulful tastiness! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RlX0b-AJWz4By the Count himself: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5_Mtgo9WOL0 |
Welcome to the thread bluesy41. I look forward to your comments on the music.
**** I think he (OP) decides what is appropriate. ****
I don’t think so. And certainly not when the comments are unrelated to the thread’s topic. That topic is the reason that readers visit the thread; not to read rantings on unrelated topics and especially when the comments are so provocative and rooted in personal agenda. This is a thread about music. Once again, in spite of all the prior commentary about how the reason that there aren’t more posters here is that we “aficionados” are somehow special and have some special appreciation for this music, here we have a new contributor who is not being welcomed. The name calling is probably next. That has also been very effective at driving new posters away. It seems that the unrelated comments surface when there is nothing interesting to say about the music.
|
Basie/Ellington. Very different bands with very different sounds and attitudes. Duke Ellington used the big band much more like the way a great composer uses a symphony orchestra. A much more varied musical palette than Basie’s sound where the emphasis was the infectious feeling of bounce and swing that pryso mentions; although Duke’s band were no slouches in that department. What do you get when you cross a Duke with a Count? : https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLw8upf1Ky3VNwKkBl2syU2en5e_l-G-iB&v=P1DKL_LE_8I |
|
|
**** Once again, here we go with the straw man stuff. No one said the posters on this thread are special. No one said Bluesy41 was not welcome. You just make this stuff up, so you can tear it down. ****
Nope; not at all. And I don’t agree with you re the purpose of the thread. Your memory is short and you don’t take well to anything resembling criticism. Now, here is the thing that makes all this so absurd in that the answer could not be more obvious. Can you think of one instance when the thread has deviated from its original stated purpose and gone to provocative and deeply personal commentary that has not resulted in contention and/or posts being deleted by moderators?
**** bluesy41 who you? Identify yo self.****
**** you are addressing the OP of this thread. I think he decides what is appropriate.****
Thats quite a welcoming party.
Fire away. Over and out. |
|
Very nice clips, Rok. Intrigued by:
**** the Orchestra does not seem to have that Ellington sound ****
??? |
O-10, this will be my last response re this issue. The history of this thread proves handily that nothing is gained by instigating this type of discussion and that the main motivator for doing so is no more than a selfish personal need to show to “the world” how righteously “compassionate” you are. To my way of thinking, and since it could not be more obvious that those who want to engage are in the minority, combined with the fact that there is opposition to straying from the thread’s stated purpose, the answer is obvious: discuss it privately. But, no! You want to make sure that everyone knows about your views and about your “compassion”; views that I and others strongly believe are off the mark and not rooted in reality. Bottom line: by all means continue to do this if you feel a personal need to do so. Obviously, no one except the moderators can stop you or anyone from going there, but don’t be surprised when reading opposition to going down that path instead of sticking to the subject of music.
**** My posts pertain to things that should be important to citizens of this country who value "Democracy", ****
Have you no idea just how arrogant and condescending that comment is to someone who simply has a different view from yours? Your posts are of value to me (and probably others) precisely because I value democracy. In my book much of what you post is further proof of the dangers TO democracy as things stand currently. However, do you really think that this thread is where the problems will be solved? Where common ground will be found? On a music forum, with all its limitations of expression; especially when there is zero indication that there is at least some willingness to consider a dissenting point of view? Right!
As is usual in human nature we see what we want to see; and how we want to see it. I have not “blamed” you nor Rok for anything. I have previously pointed out, from my perspective, what I believe an honest look at how some of the unfortunate interaction here has affected posters’ participation would show; and I don’t absolve myself. Go over the posts on this thread, early and recent, and you will easily find that many stopped posting because of negative, provocative or insulting comments on the part of some. The facts bear this out. Why this should be a surprise is beyond me. Who would want to subject him/her self to that nonsense? Moreover, your recollection of the number of participants during the periods in question is also inaccurate. Again, go over the post history.
**** If we can not discuss music and other things important to this Democracy, maybe it's time for this thread to die. ****
Now we get to the crux of the matter. Really?! All the talk about being an “advanced aficionado” and how unique and insightful we are (yes, Rok, go over the posts if you don’t remember). All the proclamations about how important this music is to you and on and on....and you are willing to let it die because you can’t discuss your views on social justice? I see. Of course, one of the main problems with that expectation is that there is seldom any real “discussion”. A lot of statements and proclamations, but little discussion. Nobody is stopping you O-10. As far as the thread dying? I doubt it. The thread will survive ANYONE of us. That’s a good thing, no? Regards.
|
I believe that was 1957 and the band’s “sound” was pretty well established by then. I know what you mean about the prominence of the reeds and you’re right:
****I guess with a singer, the arrangements are different.****
More “generic” in order to feature the singer. The band’s distinguishing traits are a lot more subtle in that arrangement, like Harry Carney’s huge baritone sound leading on the opening chords and Jimmy Hamilton’s clarinet with that beautiful “classically trained” tone that he had. Ella sounds sublime. Love that recording.
|
Part of the genius of Duke Ellington was the way his music was able to paint a picture or tell a story; not unlike the idea behind the “tone poems” of some of the great Classical composers. Very evocative music which demanded listening in a way that was different from that for the more visceral music of other jazz composers/leaders. Great quote, Alex; pretty funny. **** However prior to discovering this post I never would have called myself an "aficionado" anyway. ;^) **** pryso, for some reason for me the word “aficionado” has always conjured up an image of Hugh Heffner smoking a pipe and wearing a silk robe while saying “Yeah, baby” 😎 Very interesting topic, “rediscovered” records. Oliver Nelson’s “BATAT” was the very first recording that I mentioned in my very first post on this thread. Wonderful and classic record. Great and very interesting choice of personnel on the record which was discussed a couple of times subsequently in the context of a discussion about arrangers. Nelson was, of course, one of the best. On that record’s title cut is quite possibly my favorite Freddie Hubbard solo on record; great example of thematic development in a solo and swinging like mad. However, I am not sure that this record would qualify for “rediscovered” as I think is what you mean and was certainly never forgotten by jazz fans in general. This record has consistently placed on “must have” lists pretty much since its release. In more direct answer to your question I think that the difference is that records like KOB and Time Out (to a lesser extent) were records that influenced the direction of jazz whereas BATAT, excellent as it was, was not a “milestone” recording. KOB and TO set a pretty high bar in that regard. Again, a very interesting topic worth exploring. Here’s my first nominee for classic “rediscovered” recording. This record created quite a stir when first released and seemed to be forgotten for a while and then got a lot of renewed attention over the last few years. One of my favorites: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IwOIVQVVhwghttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GYQNsuzMXiQhttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_vVHT-wSLik |
“Corner Pocket”: Fabulous! One of my favorite Basie charts. Wasn’t aware of that record. Didn’t know Basie had recorded at The Sands except for the great record with Sinatra; a favorite. Wonderful drive as you say. That’s gotta be Lockjaw Davis on tenor. What a sound and I love his use of note inflections. Quiz time! :
Can anyone name the tune that the trumpet player quotes at the very beginning of his solo? Hint: the tune was a big hit for (speaking of big bands) for a Cuban band leader from the 40s/50s whose last name sounds like the name of a famous fashion designer and whose first name is usually a last name 🤔
|
|
You rock, Rok! Excellent! |
Researching that great Basie ”Live At The Sands” recording that pryso posted I learned that this recording is from the warm up sets that the band would play before the “The Chairman” took the stage for the famous Sinatra At The Sands concerts. Here’s an earlier (1962) performance of the same chart. What a band! This time it’s Frank Wess playing a beautiful tenor solo. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8IVX8BayOCAAmong the many great things that one could point to two stand out for me. One of the, if not exactly unsung, but certainly more subtle heroes in Basie’s band was guitarist Freddie Green. In practically every chart they played, subtly in the “mix”, one can hear Green’s acoustic (!) rhythm guitar chomp-chomp-chomping on every beat. It’s the kind of very important musical detail that is not fully appreciated unless it were not there at all. It added so much to the sound of the band and to that sense of drive that pryso mentions. He was also the author and arranger of “Corner Pocket” which leads me to the second point: Check out Thad Jones’ trumpet solo! He plays first and is followed by Al Aarons. When was the last time we heard or read anything about what a great trumpet player Thad Jones was? Like Oliver Nelson his fame as a great orchestrator/band leader has made many forget what great players they were. The recognition that the arrangers deserve puts things in a different perspective for me. Not to take anything away from the leaders or headliners, but the reality is that without the great arrangers the leaders would not have nearly as much to lead. Although I’m particular fond of Neal Hefti’s arrangements for Basie, Sammy Nistico was another great arranger who helped define Basie’s big band sound. This is one of my favorite charts of his: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TS-UNkdyyvg |
|
pryso, yes I did see your comment re Green: **** Just a steady foundation to each tune. **** Exactly! And we all know what happens when you take the foundation away. re Thad Jones and Monk. I think whoever posted your link originally screwed up. Did you mean this? Great record. Thanks for the reminder. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oRDxZpwJwks |
You know how the audio rags do “retrospectives” of old reviews of classic audio equipment? It would be interesting to occasionally go back to old comments and exchanges. Some of the “exchanges” we can probably do without revisiting, but that’s a different story. It’s really not hard to do. You go to the “Search Forums” window, type in the name of the artist or whatever, then select the “topic” (music) and it’s fairly easy to then narrow down all the hits according to the thread’s timeline.
|
Totally agree re Lester Bowie; and all great clips. On the hunch that acman3 had posted “I Only Have Eyes For You” previously I did a little search of the “archives” and came up with this, one of the better exchanges of opinion (this time about Bowie) and one of Rok’s more memorable comments about his own trumpet playing background. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/jazz-for-aficionados/post?highlight=Lester%2BBowie%2B&pos...**** don’t know why I put them in the noise maker box. **** In my book that’s what it’s all about. Not so much the why then, but the why not now. I appreciated the Bey sisters a lot more this last time around. |
A very disturbing post (twice). I hope he is ok and I wish him well. Rok, did you get my pm?
|
Nice description of Lage’s style and I enjoyed the clips. Whenever I have listened to him (not very often) I always think Bill Frisell, but not as “heady” or intellectual as Frisell. I like the attitude in Lage’s playing and he’s an interesting player. There’s a certain easy and understated vibe that is very appealing, but the guy has some serious chops when he cuts loose. The subject of bluegrass came up here recently. For me, Lage seems to find a comfortable spot between the way some of the great bluegrass/country swing players (the “pickers”) improvise and the jazz players whose playing is more rooted in the blues. A lot of words to say what I think acman3 meant by “Bill Frisell Americana Route”. Great clips all around.
|
|
I hope he’s doing ok. Since we’ve been on the subject of guitar players, how about this? Probably the OP’s favorite player and who, after Miles, probably the most discussed musician here. While Grant Green’s recordings Idle Moments and Green Street are generally considered his “best”, my favorite work of his was with Sonny Clark: https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLea9tj3kSsQZtVj0-CkwSc5__ymviBDTC&v=_ZnpcbnXSes |
|
Very eclectic trio of clips! The first two are two of my favorite records. The third by Hanrahan is new to me and by one of the most interesting producers out there. I didn’t know much about him except as the producer of Piazolla’s “Zero Hour” which you posted and some comments about him in the press. That will have to change based on what a little research “Pinero” has revealed to me. Very interesting personality in music and very worth checking out. Thanks! |
Great Mehldau, acman3. Love his playing. Thanks! |
I find a certain irony in the fact that eventhough Chinese made audio products receive so much attention (good and bad) from the audio community that the Chinese government blocks posting on Audiogon and access to YouTube. After six days in Shanghai I am now in Osaka, Japan where there are no such restrictions and am catching up on the goings on here. Interesting discussion and comparison of Ella and Sassy and thanks to all for the great clips. I find ghosthouse’s description of their relative styles and sounds to be excellent and spot on. No way I could proclaim one “superior” to the other since their styles were so different. Clearly a case of personal preference and while I enjoy them both I find Sarah’s singing more interesting and the sound of her voice far more complex as ghosthouse says. I love Ella’s singing also, but as in a comment that I read (I wish I could claim to have said this): “ it’s as if she’s searching for a tube of lipstick in the bottom of her purse at the same time”. As much as I like his playing it’s a little like the feeling I get when I listen to Oscar Peterson play. Great in every respect, but there’s just something that leaves me missing the introspection and character of some other favorite piano players. Rok, I know you’re a big fan of Ella as am I, and I find your reference to the “Met Opera folks” interesting since it was Sarah that was often thought of as having the skill of a great opera singer. She had a four octave range which was much wider than Ella’s and she also had great intonation and control, but made the stylistic choice of not always landing on notes squarely on pitch. I will concede that there are times (especially in later recordings) when her singing gets a little too ornate for me with a little too much character Anyway, two fantastic singers. Operatic (almost) Sarah: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4U6xJ0gKT9sSome favorite Sarah: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-RJ9PNYxr9Qhttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fDePdW8aP60https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=prIb53T3IFMSome favorite Ella: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VqOaQgD_2KAhttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=P1d4NHsyQgs |
|
|
Very nice to hear indeed. Curious...was the comment in reference to the tennis playing or to someone else’s comment?
|
Beautiful performance of “Old Folks” by Wynton Kelly, Alex. Beautiful player and one of my favorites. Too bad he had such a crappy piano to play on that night. A player like that deserves a better instrument. Here is another live performance with a much better sounding piano, but mediocre recording quality unfortunately ...oh well. “Old Folks” is at 32:00. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u5qSayYcdP8Possibly a little peek into the personal dynamics that come into play between players during a music project. “Old Folks” was one of Wynton Kelly’s “signature” tunes. On this project he was a sideman to a leader of well known ego and opinion; same rhythm section as the above. Yet, they recorded Kelly’s signature tune for possibly the best known rendition of the tune. Perhaps Miles’ ego was not as huge as it is purported to have been; or, perhaps his respect for Kelly was also huge: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=W7QY-Kh5QMY |
pryso, I enjoy that O’day clip more each time I see and hear it. Great singer! Not prepared to say it’s as good as it gets, but certainly excellent. We’re lucky to have so many to choose from depending on the mood. Here’s another favorite female vocalist along with one of my favorite male vocalists (possibly my favorite if forced to choose): https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1IM3weosOTYghosthouse, Tim Garland is a very talented player who has obviously had serious study on the bass clarinet. Thanks for that clip; I enjoyed it. A very unwieldy instrument the bass clarinet is quite a challenge for any saxophone player to play only causally. I suspect he spent a lot of time listening to Dolphy’s work; and these recordings in particular. Of the five versions the Copenhagen concert is generally considered the best. “Let the bass clarinet play” indeed! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VD-s3des8VU |
pryso, if one can only have one album with Dolphy as leader this is the one. Classic recording which is generally considered to be his greatest. Amazing lineup playing perhaps the most coherent (non-bs) example of music in all of “avant-garde” jazz: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ln8naZpOJ0oThe first use of the bass clarinet in jazz was in the context of big band arrangements where it’s distinctive tone color can be exploited very much like it can be in a symphony orchestra. Duke Ellington did this better than anyone who wrote for jazz orchestra. His great baritonist Harry Carney was also a fine bass clarinetist and was featured on the instrument in some of Duke’s arrangements. “A Tone Paralell To Harlem” is one of Duke’s best known “suites”. Check out Harry Carney on bass clarinet @ 8:35: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k2x5ukuGPEEBill Holman, another (more contemporary) great big band orchestrator featured the bass clarinet on his arrangement of the beatiful Jimmy Rowels ballad “The Peacocks”: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eKv91DFhgS4Joe Temperley served as the low reed guy in Wynton’s JALC band until his recent unfortunate passing. Wonderful bass clarinetist: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M9uFP5vPSmIAnother player with “avant-garde” leanings. Have never been a fan of his tenor playing, but enjoy his bass clarinet: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=akz87TT1c5wAnd, of course, the funkiest bass clarinetist ever, Bennie Maupin on one of the funkiest and possibly best “fusion” recordings ever, Herbie Hancock’s “Headhunters”. Love this record: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mZy7v_-ss74 |
Well, I do declare! (in my best faux-Southern acceint....not very good). You like David Ware AND Lester Bowie! Will wonders never cease? 😉. Just kidding and yanking your chain of course. I believe there was a time when they would have been put squarely in the “noisemaker” category. Re marginal instruments: While I wouldn’t say “gimmicky”, it is true that players with a less traditional mindset will be prone to search for new and unusual sounds. **** I wonder if we would like it as much if this was the first and only "I only have eyes for you"? **** And that IS a good and fascinating question. In a way it answers the question re what is an “appropriate” instrument for jazz.... familiarity with the sound plays a big role in our reaction to it. And you thought the bass clarinet was marginal in jazz: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=riIWVv5u7Jgnsp, thanks for that Bennie Maupin clips. I wasn’t familiar with those and enjoyed them. There’s just something about Maupin’s playing that I always like. His soprano saxophone playing on Headhunters is also fantastic. Rough around the edges, but so funky! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hNlm-W3m1qcghosthouse, the chickens are coming home to roost 😊 |
|
YouTube is unbelievable! When I posted the clips of bass clarinet players it didn’t even occur to me to see if these two records might be found on the site. I could not imagine that records this rare would be there...they are! The first is by a clarinetist who is a legend in the NYC clarinet scene. A true renaissance man Ron Odrich is one of the country’s leading periodontists and great clarinetist (for fun) in a bebop/swing vein. Amazing individual. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wf7xSSIVrcQhttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NUCPbV2Dp3IThe other is someone who was discussed here recently. Eddie Daniels is probably the most accomplished woodwind “doubler” ever. Amazing player on saxophones, clarinets and flute. Has recorded with Freddie Hubbard, was a longtime member of the Thad Jones/Mel Lewis big band and currently plays and records in both the jazz and classical genres as leader and soloist. Incredible instrumentalist. This clip is from his very rare first recording as a leader with guitarist Bucky Pizzarelli. Putting aside stylistic issues and preferences, of all the bass clarinet players posted so far this is the best bass clarinet playing from the point of view of instrumental skill and refinement; and he swings his as& off! This clip should put to rest the question of any limitations of the bass clarinet as an instrument for jazz (not the real pic of the album jacket) : https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_5cX_S04ed4From the same record; same player (!). If you thought Dophy was a good flute player (he was), check this out; instrumentally, on an entirely different level: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Wv2Q2ivSA1A |
Rok, I don’t disagree with you and I know where you’re coming from. That was the reason for my caveats: “putting aside stylistic issues and preferences” and “from the standpoint of instrumental refinement”.
nsp, thanks for that clip. That is probably one of the two Herbie albums that I don’t own; for no particular reason, I’ll have to check that out.
|
I say, I say, Pryso!!! “A Love Supreme” on the pipes! You know, that was better than I thought it would be. The guy actually playe a pretty good solo. |
