Hard feelings? No way. You are a treasure on this thread. A man who truly knows and loves music, and wants to share that with others. Where would we be without you.
But, Fusion still sucks, unless, it's not considered Jazz, then it's just another genre.
The reason? It's not a natural progression of Jazz. It's creation had more to do with the amount of money being made by Rock groups on tour, versus the amount of money being made by Jazz players, esp as the popularity of Jazz declined. Like the Frankenstein of music.
Rock damaged or destroyed a lot. Jazz, Rock&Roll, Soul, R&B, Country. Criminal.
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*****
does it not follow that you should perhaps, just perhaps, give some (just a tinzy wins y bit) of credence to what I am now saying about this music? Makes sense to me. ******
If I were deaf, I would give you complete credence about how this music sounds. If I couldn't read, I would wait with bated breath for you to tell me about the origins of Fusion. If I had been born yesterday, I would hang on to your every word to bring me up to date..
But sense none of that is true, I appreciate the things you point out in music, and I am glad you do it. BUT, that does not mean your opinion cannot be challenged. Learsfool's admonishments notwithstanding.
Makes sense to me.
Cheers
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****
A soloist picking up where the other left off was an example of just ONE solo in that JALC example. It is ONE way that a soloist can start a solo, and a good and interesting way, but NOT the only way ****
I see you are still in the 'Strawman' business. I was responding to a comment by "jzzmusician" that he thought Fusion and other Jazz tunes develop as the tune is being played. I used your example, as an example of tune development and said I didn't hear any similar thing in the fusion piece. I was supporting my argument that the fusion piece had no continuity at all. No one ever said all soloist have to do that. No one ever implied it either.
Nice try.
jzzmusician
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Close.
Brown singing Opera, is not Opera. it's a joke.
Domingo Singing Funk, is not Funk. It's a joke
ANYONE playing Fusion, is Not JAZZ. It's a joke
Fairly simple. At least for those who want to see it.
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Sorry, left off the most important part.
Close.
Brown singing Opera, is not Opera, or Funk. it's a joke.
Domingo Singing Funk, is not Funk, or Opera. It's a joke
ANYONE playing Fusion, is Not JAZZ, or Rock. It's a joke
Fairly simple. At least for those who want to see it.
Cheers
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18 Musicians:
I stuck with it for about half the length. Not that bad really, if the atmosphere and environment are right. Probably much better to see it live.
Could be the best example of 'Advancing the Art' posted so far. I can see this being an example of the ultimate fate of human music. Complete 'Fusion' into something that is beyond description. Something that will appeal to all humanity. Totally inoffensive.
One of the comments said they played a wrong note at 23:47. I had to laugh out loud. But, it appears they are correct.
One of The Frogman's favorite composers, so I think it will be well received.
I think I might buy it. I think it will sound great on the main rig.
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Today's Listen: Duke Ellington -- NEW ORLEANS SUITE There is just something that's just so right about Ellington giving us his take on New Orleans. The cover art has the perfect effect. Looking down from Mount Olympus?? This was recorded a few days after the death of Johnny Hodges. He joined Ellington in 1928. Died in 1970. That's 42 years with the band. Most guys these days can't stay together for 40 days. Wild Bill Davis on Organ. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=890IdiOOVKM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRgbBsby_qg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdL5h5vWeTk On the Atlantic Masters label. The notes list other albums in the Atlantic Masters series, including: Herbie Hancock's --- FAT ALBERT ROTUNDA hahhahhaha The People Rest. Under the heading of "Signs of the Times", This album came in second in the Downbeat best Jazz album of 1971 poll. Sandwiched between Weather Report and Miles' Jack Johnson. There will be a reckoning someday. These clips may sound 'funny' to some. Fear not, it's just real Jazz. It won't harm you. Cheers |
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*****
Now it's apparent why I know so little about this great artist; he couldn't get anybody to record his music. *****
aaugh!!!!
Well, I have 9 CDs by Weston. One big difference between the ones I have and the one you posted, is the album cover art. In the days of pre-internet, I would not buy "African Cookbook" based on the cover art alone.
All of my CDs look 'serious', with titles like 'Plays Ellington' and 'Plays monk'. I do have volcano blues.
Maskekela:
I think 'Stimela' is on every album this man has ever recorded. He is my favorite player from Africa and maybe the best player on Flugelhorn ever / anywhere!!! His music is always easy on the ears. He also has a terrific voice. Excellent, dare I say it, Fusion, of western and African music.
I will post my Weston later.
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Weston said in the notes that the South Bronx or Bed Sty, where he lived, reminded him of an African village!! YIKES!!!! Hence the name of the tune.
Cheers
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Deodato:
Generic '70s percussion exhibition. A little goes a long way.
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Today's Randy Weston: Randy Weston -- AFRICAN SUNRISE (selections from the Spirits of our Ancestors) This is a CD comprised of tracks taken from the 2 CD set 'Spirits of Our Ancestors'. But these clips are off the youtube posting of "Spirits" I heard more Monk than Africa. I liked these two best, but I like it all. Dizzy Gillespie and Pharoah Sanders are special guests. Arrangements by Melba Liston. She and Randy have done quite of few albums together. She arranges and plays Trombone. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ie6WT8JaDfs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URkLE6GerP0 Cheers |
Full Disclosure:
I own 4 Weather Report LPs, 2 Al Di Meola LPs, and 2 Pat Metheny LPs,
The good news is, I don't have an operational turntable.
All these were purchased in Europe, where often times the good stuff was hard to find.
A load has been lifted.
Cheers
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*****
Is that applause I hear?*****
That would be a big fat No!
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*****
I don't care for his brand of Africa meets West music which often ends up sounding like mediocre Smooth Jazz to me. *****
No caring for his music is legit. Calling it "smooth" is just incorrect.
Seems as if Most of his stuff is rooted in the Anti-Apartheid movement. Smooth it ain't. But it is easy on the ears. That's the nature of the music. Gentle swaying rhythms. Makes you grove even when the lyrics are saying the most serious and profound things. Flugelhorn is the perfect instrument for this music.
Art farmer is the only player I can think of, off hand, that plays the Flugelhorn consistently. I would be interested in knowing these other great Jazz Flugelhorn players. And, I would not say Jazz is his first musical priority.
'Stimela' is to South Africa, what 'Katrina' is to New Orleans.
Whining song.
Cheers
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Point Of Order:
*****
Why listen to Wynton's band playing this music when I can listen to Duke; just not on the same level. *****
You cannot use logic, or a line of reasoning, to make a point, that you previously lambasted, ridiculed or deemed silly / stupid when used by others.
(1) I think I compared three different performances of Donna Lee.
(2) I asked, why pickup Harrell, when Hubbard is right there next to it.
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My point is when I compared three different players playing Donna Lee, you call it silly and ridiculous. When I suggest Harrell was a noise maker, and why would anyone buy his CDs when right next to them in the 'H' section, was Hubbard. Again silly and stupid.
This has nothing to do with the talent of anyone, has to do with the type of examples used to make a point.
Of course, you know this.
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First of all, I Love Barry White. The Frogman's comment is valid. It's within the realm of reason. Before the vocals start on "Stimela" it could be a Barry White type song, and when the guy starts singing, that deep voice, talking not singing, is reminiscence of Barry's style. Of course Barry is 'Smooth' personified. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=br-Dy3puDoc'Stimela' is supposed to be a whining song about folks on a train being taken to work in coal mines, but the fact that he used the phrase "choo-choo train", lessens the impact of the message. To appreciate the song, you must keep in mind, that, in some circles, the absolute worst thing humans can be required to do, is work in coal mines or pick cotton. Cheers |
Hubbard and Harrell:
Two top Jazz Trumpet players playing a tune on Flugelhorn. Maskekela plays the Flugelhorn all the time, and he is more 'Popular entertainer' than H&H. He has to sing, dance and play.
The best comparison would be with someone like Chuck Mangione.
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*** how can anybody find humor in "Apartied" or the "Katrina Aftermath"***
What humor are you speaking of?
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*****
I'm still trying to get a handle on how the issue of ethics relates to aesthetic choices (tone?)*****
Aren't we all. Inquiring minds want to know.
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If memory serves, Johnny Carson also had Art Farmer on as a guest quite often. He was a real Jazz Aficionado. One of the greatest TV shows ever.
Compare his band and musical guests to today's TV fare. :(
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From a Jazz quotation site. I think you guys fall in the Wayne Shorter Camp.
- Wayne Shorter - "Music should not have any mandates. Jazz is not supposed to be something that is required to sound like jazz." [P]
WTF!!!! The truth of the matter:
- Jelly Roll Morton - "Jazz music is a style, not compositions; any kind of music may be played in Jazz if one has the knowledge."
What Morton means is, songs like "A closer walk with Thee", "Silent Night" "Shoo Fly" and Broadway Show Tunes, CAN BE Jazz tunes. It depends on how they are played. And since Morton CREATED Jazz, who are we to argue. :) Wayne's comment is ready made for 'fusion' and other Noise sources. It's really silly when you think about it. Esp since without SOUND, there is no music. How can what music sounds like be irrelevant to the music genre. I guess he was trying to be profound, or more probable, trying to justify his 'fusion' noise making. Cheers |
I was hoping that The Frogman would soon run out of straw. A very eloquent post that has absolutely nothing to do with what I posted.
*****
The irony is that Shorter and Morton are saying the exact same thing *****
Jelly roll did not say all Jazz players had to play like he did, he said, Jazz is a style of playing music, and that any kind of music can be played in the Jazz style. This would include Silver and Coltrane and everyone else.
Boy you are death on straw men.
So, Please explain how,
"Jazz does not have to sound like Jazz"
And
"Jazz is a style of playing music"
Are saying the same thing.
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Just read an article about some guy who wears his baseball cap backwards, bringing electronic music to Cuba. Not a good way to start the day. Luckily I had this antidote handy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2MVmC55T5sCheers |
Listened to all three. The Crave was the best by far to my ear. The other tunes were not compelling.
They all sounded like Jazz to me. The Shorter album has electronic instruments if memory serves. I have it on LP. But I didn't hear any on the tune you posted. It was OK. He has done a lot better.
I think I have to remember that the artist hear themselves everyday. People like me, hear them every now and then, and I mean on CD. The music is always fresh and new to me. But I think the players get tired of playing the same stuff, in the same way, and they like to explore and try new things. Some stuff works, for the Jazz unwashed, and some does not.
You call this the natural progression of the music. I don't consider it natural at all. I think of it as being forced. Natural is as easy as falling off a log. And, it takes time.
If all Jazz players retired when they felt they were out of ideas, there would be no fusion. But they have to earn a living, and of course they want to stay in the public's eye. Go with the flow.
Not surprisingly, Miles and Shorter sounded more akin to each other than did Morton.
Cheers
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*****
next time when somebody writes a critic thought, would be nice to say why somebody likes or dislikes something*****
I will, as soon as I am able to explain to myself, why I like Ice Cream, and Chocolate, and LvB's 9th, or don't like Rock or Stravinsky, or Berg etc.........
Cause I do. Or Cause I don't. If you can explain it, you are trying too hard.
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Nat Adderley:
Excellent! Just don't ask me why. "Loneliness" really expresses the title of the tune. I will have to get Little Big Horn.
One of the few Cornet players in Jazz.
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So, it appears as if you guys went from Jazz-Jazz to Fusion, while I went from Fusion to Jazz-Jazz.
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I have been searching and searching for some good fusion music. The Lord knows I have tried. I did find this. Fusion of a sort. My kind of fusion. The best kind of fusion. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bK0X9J_pX8wWynton in the Trumpet section, would have been perfect. Cheers |
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Fusion:
{a union by or as if by melting: as a : a merging of diverse, distinct, or separate elements into a unified whole}
My posts were examples of the FUSION of Spirituals, Blues, R&B, Rock, Jazz, Opera and Classical styles of music and playing. Also, a dash of Bluegrass. It's a shame you couldn't hear it.
I guess it just didn't fit with what you learned in Jazz School.
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Down in Mississippi, the old folks used to say, "there is such a thing as too much education".
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****
Frogman, that was interesting and educative post. Thanks. *****
Does that mean you like Nat Adderley more or less than you did before the "interesting and educational" post?. Do your ears now bleed when you hear Wynton? What impact does it have on your taste in Jazz?
Allow me:
It has no impact what so ever. Music is an emotional thingy, just like all Art. Critical analysis does not change how it affects a person, it's just nice to know information, good for academic study, or conversation over drinks. Nothing more.
Damn, you people are hard headed!!
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*****lets say fusion, and you don't learn the language, because why should you; You HATE fusion. Years later you may miss out on a great guitarist like John Abercrombie, because the language sounds foreign, because he is rooted in the time you skipped, and all subsequent variations are also.*****
Actually at one time I had more Fusion than Jazz-Jazz. Looking at the printout of my Jazz albums on LP, I see that I had more Chick Corea and Crusaders than Ellington. More Al Di Meola and Pat Metheny than Horace Silver. More Dave Grusin Than Count Basie. More Weather Report than Lee Morgan. No Basie at all. I read the printout now, and can't believe it.
So, I didn't skip anything, I was just exposed to the real deal at a later date. In retrospect, it was probably better that way.
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By critical analysis, I was speaking of making a judgement of the tune and / or the playing.. BTW, I always recognized 'quotes', I just never knew they were intentional or accepted as a part of Jazz. I thought of it as plagiarism.
Cheers
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*****
What am I missing?*****
As Usual, everything.
*****
Not meaning to argue ****
Of course you are. That statement ranks right up there with "it's not about the Money".
*****
Making a judgment without explaining is simple opinion; no? *****
Making a judgement with or without explanation, is opinion. The Supreme Court hands down 'Opinions'. BTW, Explaining something does not change what it is..
I think it's possible, in the middle of playing improvised music, to play a few notes that have been played before in the same order in another popular tune. Intention would depend on the length of the passage played. A few notes might be an unintentional, subconscious 'quote', too many notes, and you are playing Mona Lisa.
Cheers
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*****
just who made you judge, jury, and executioner, of this thread?*****
I think he is self-appointed.
*****
you are responding, not in a reasoned way, but in a way that you feel somehow proves that you are correct and I am incorrect; and nothing more.*****
This is called 'projection' by the mental health folks.
Welcome back O-10. A thread needs it's OP.
In the Bible, Job got affliction and pestilence, we got The Frogman. But like Job, we will survive this testing.
Cheers
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Had to get my Cuban fix today. Heard this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoAbE3-u5poCheck at approx 2:16 and 2:35 on 'Memories'. Is that quoting? Sounded like it could have been taken from 'Mona Lisa'. I don't think he was quoting at all. The shorter the string of notes, the less unique they are. Esp since everyone plays the same notes. Cheers |
Hucklebuck:
That ain't "quoting", that's Grand Theft.
I used to listen to 'hucklebuck' when I was a child. Who did that version?
*****
how they settle it is up to them, I'm not in it.*****
Nice to know the OP has your back.
Cheers
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If some people are ever caught in an indefensible position, or find themselves proven incorrect, why then, they just go silent or change the subject.
It's called their, 'Modus Operandi'.
Cheers
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The only Dick Hyman I own. I think I got this one in order to fill out an order from the old BMG Record club. Buying at least four, brought the price down to about 7.50 per disc. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aXCy7yu0RwCheers |
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Today's Listen -- LAUGHIN' TO KEEP FROM CRYIN' Lester Young, Roy Eldridge, Harry Edison, Hank Jones, Herb Ellis Great Album by a bunch of up and coming players. Ellis seems to engage in some "quoting" on his solo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrXHu4elT5E
BTW, Led Zeppelin was taken to court recently for excessive "quoting".
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