Jazz for aficionados

In “jazzy” musician parlance a “monster” is someone with exceptional skill and who is very interesting.  Welcome, mary_jo!

btw, mary_jo, I agree with everything you wrote about Billie Holiday. Arguably (for some) the greatest and most influential jazz singer to ever live. As you say...the power to deliver.  And let’s not forget her song writing talents.  One of the most admired traits in a jazz artist is the ability to say the most with the fewest notes. In Billie Holiday’s case it was the ability to say the most with the fewest vocal resources. A voice that was dripping with soul and worldliness and which was barely more than one single octave in range; yet could say so much. This one kills me every time:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XK4tmKtpw54

I don’t disagree with Rok’s comment about context and how it might influence a person’s reaction to an artist; and I think I undertand where he’s coming from, perhaps not. One of the most interesting, controversial and debated topics in all of music and it’s history. Does one put ANY caveats in the appreciation of an artist because of personal issues and how those might relate to oneself or to the world at large? Do an artist’s personal controversies diminish the art? Food for thought.

I started to mention Wagner as an example in my previous post and didn’t for a couple of reasons. Mostly because I had a strong feeling that we would hear from you on the subject and that you could say what needed to be said much better than I. Regards.

Now, now, O-10! I don’t recall giving my permission.

**** Frogman, I have more stories to tell, but I will only tell them with your permission. ****

Just trying to lighten things up, O-10. All in good fun 😊. I hereby give my unconditional permission. Carry on. 

Sounds like it was a great night.

Alex, you are to be commended for continuing to post excellent forgotten or little known players.  Of all the ones that you have posted here Don Sleet is possibly my favorite so far.  Very nice player.  Reminds me a little of Blue Mitchell.  And what a lineup on those recordings!  Great rhythm section.  One of the most interesting things about those clips, aside from Sleet’s fine playing is the shades of Coltrane in Jimmy Heath’s playing; particularly on “Secret Love”.  That was recorded in 1961, probably at the peak of Coltrane’s notoriety so not terribly surprising from that standpoint; but I had never heard so much Trane in any of Jimmy Heath’s recordings before.  Thanks for the clips.  Very nice!

**** I think I should have been more silent... ****

No!!! Not at all.

mary_jo, as you are finding folks here are very passionate about music and it’s history and sometimes stubborn with our opinions. It is one of the beauties of great art that it inspires such strong feelings. Combine that fact with the imperfection in the written word’s ability to accurately express our thoughts and opinions (also an art) and it is easy to see how and why heated arguments can ensue; something that we thread veterans know much about. Sometimes only through heated debate can the road from opinion to fact become a little clearer....sometimes. At the very least there can be a bit of humor in it all.

So, don’t hold back. This recent bit of friction is very mild....trust me. I like your style and appreciate that you have a feeling for “continuity” in your posts. That kind of mental process is, after all, the way that a good jazz player creates a great jazz solo. I will say, however, that either by design or by innocence your choice of music to suggest “silence” is a particularly controversial (appropriate?) one due to, once again, the all-important “context”. If that last sentence is too cryptic, I have no doubt that your friend and veteran Alex can explain 😉

Very nice Blue Mitchell; thanks! And, very nice continuity.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JTEFKFiXSx4

**** To what, does ’The Sound of Red’ refer. ****

Rok, I don’t know this for a fact, but I would bet that Renee Marie is a Buddhist.

In Buddhism there is a concept called “chakra”. A chakra is believed to be an “energy center” in the body; there are several. One of the ideas behind the concept of “chakra” is the association of a chakra with a specific color. Additionally, there is a neurological phenomenon called “Chromesthesia” (or, more generally, “Synesthesia”) which causes some individuals to experience sounds as specific colors. This is not entirely quackery and is well studied and documented. The famous composer Alexander Scriabin devised a scheme associating specific notes to specific colors which he used in some of his compositions. Interestingly, the song “The Sound Of Red” is in the key of Bb (B flat). In Scriabin’s note/color scheme Bb corresponds with the color “Rose”. Coincidence?

Lastly, I mentioned that I had briefly chatted with Renee Marie when my wife and I went to see her. The CD that she signed for my wife was signed “With Joy, Renee Marie”. “Joy” is a term very commonly used in Buddhism and one of the four “sublime attitudes”. O-10, another of those four is....”equanimity”.

In case anyone is wondering, I dated a Buddhist all through colloge. Didn’t work out too well.

Since the door of judgment re what determines worthiness to be called a true jazz aficionado has been flung wide open, I will walk right in.  More than anything, and short of total unlistenability, should be the ability to listen to and at least appreciate a great performance regardless of recording quality.  IMO.

mary_jo, I have gotten to know a bit about your beautiful country by way of a wonderful young lady who was my youngest son’s babysitter for many years. She and her family immigrated to the USA and were our neighbors for many years and my family was fortunate to have gotten to know them; wonderful people. The parents are actually planning on moving back to Croatia next year to a property in the countryside that looks absolutely beautiful from pictures.  Every family has that irascible uncle who is extremely opinionated and prone to aggressive behavior and name calling. Of course, the best course of action is to simply roll one’s eyeballs and say “there he goes again”....and can serve as a great source of humor if one looks below the surface. I look forward to your posts.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0rEsVp5tiDQ

Sorry if this disappoints.  It was I who deleted my own post.  In my haste I misread pryso’s post.  I thought, at first, that his “aficionado challenge” was to be able to identify a band....any band....not just the one in his link.  I had responded with a resounding “Amen!” when I realized just what he meant.  Way too easy 😊

Thanks for the excellent clips, mary_jo; two great artists.  That Turrentine recording is one of my favorites from one of my favorite tenor players.  He had a wonderful way of telling a story with his solos; great tenor sound.  As you say, it is indeed a great pity when people do not nurture and preserve the beauty around them.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LLn3FT9BsRs

As with Billie Holiday the power in the delivery of the song makes the vocal imperfections mostly irrelevant.

Thanks for the clips, O-10.  Nice Billie.  You may find this interesting:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haitian_Vodou

From that article:

*** Today, Vodou is practiced not only by Haitians but by Americans and people of many other nations who have been exposed to Haitian culture. Haitian creole forms of Vodou exist in Haiti, the Dominican Republic, Cuba,[48] some of the outer islands of the Bahamas, the United States, and other places to which Haitians have immigrated. There has been a re-emergence of the Vodun traditions in the United States, maintaining the same ritual and cosmological elements as in West Africa. ***

👋

Food for thought:

If “there is no past”, how can there be a future?  So...why the “doom and gloom”?

VERY nice alto player in that Wynton clip; very inventive.  I enjoyed that clip.  Thanks.  Now, I hope this is not taken the wrong way and I hope it simply points to why it’s important to be careful about how perception influences us all in our reactions to music sometimes.  I have a strong suspicion that had Wynton not been sitting there next to that alto player, given that young player’s style of playing which is clearly harmonically very modern and had the tune not been “A Train”, that he would have been lumped into the “noise maker” category.  

Wow!  And I thought I was pretty good at being purposely cryptic.  Thanks for quoting me ps, but you’ll have to explain this one to me. 🤔

Rok, that Cab Calloway clip is unbelievable!  No words to describe how good the Nicholas Bros were. Thanks for that!  Amazing dancing all the way around with great and tasteful choreography and the band sound fantastic.  Just great!  

A humorus footnote: at 3:50 check out the two saxophone players in the front row with the Bros dancing on their tables.  The alto player on screen left is cool as a cucumber.  The tenor player on his left is a little freaked out as if saying “Holy sh#t , don’t hit me”.

No Bird, no Trane???  Interesting question.  However, I have a hunch it wouldn’t be all that different except for the “sounds”.  Conceptually, the instruments are just a means to an end; which is why I am always a little bewildered when some listeners say “I don’t like this instrument or that instrument”.

Btw, the alto player on that great (!) clip of Wynton’s band is Sherman Irby who plays the amazing alto solo in the tune “The Sound Of Red”.  One of my favorites on the scene today; few notes, great feel, great story telling.  No doom and gloom as far as I can see. 

mary_jo, I am duly impressed.  Few people even know of the existence of the slide saxophone.  A relic and curiosity, but a real (and strange) instrument.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bPz85Ie2CdM

”The man with the funny little horn”.  My wife has used that phrase...well, never mind 😊

Nice accounts, ps; thanks for those.  Btw, this year marks what would have been the great Leonard Bernstein’s 100th birthday.  Lots of his music being performed everywhere this year.

I think that this thread, in the scheme of internet based and disseminated 
information/discussion, can be a small but not insignificant contribution to the education of listeners new to jazz.  The OP should be commended for starting it.  Thank you, O-10.  However, to continue to promulgate an idea that is not only seriously mistaken and that goes against not only the opinion of every authority on the subject, but the practitioners of the art form itself does a major disservice.  This mistaken idea goes to very core of what is probably the most fundamental and important aspect of this music:  its rhythms and where those rhythms came from.

First, the fact that any one listener cannot “hear” African rhythms as the listener knows and understands them in jazz does not mean that those rhythms are
not there; or, at least, serve as the foundation for those jazz rhythms as they are understood.  It is like insisting that European based chord progressions and harmony do not exist in the music because the listener cannot hear them as such.  

**** The folks that are beating on drums these days in third world countries, are doing so in response to Hollywood, not the other way around.****

We know about the distortions of so much by Hollywood: but, sorry Rok, and with respect, that is one of the most ridiculous comments I have read in this forum; second only to a recent comment about the irrelevance of Sonny Rollins.

There is so much written on the subject that it almost seems silly to post links to very interesting and educational information and commentary easily available.  I encourage all to do a little reading on the subject.  

A couple of pretty good musical examples and  demonstration of African rhythm in jazz for anyone who cares.  I guess Wynton doesn’t know what he’s talking about after all 😊

https://youtu.be/bkyOFkBAMDg

https://youtu.be/w3XsrJpaUXI

Nice Don Scaletta clip, thanks. Very good player and new to me.  You also got to see another of my very favorite alto players, Charlie Mariano; good for you.   

This has always been one of my favorite records, and the record that introduced me to Charlie Mariano:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3Sj9IVxajjM

Just some friendly food for thought: I think it would be most positive and productive if ego and defensiveness would not so completely trump a willingness to at least consider the possibility that there is something new to learn; especially in the face of so much evidence to support the opposing point of view. As an alternative, how about presenting evidence as a rebuttal; or, comments re why it is ok to misrepresent an important and fundamental aspect of what the thread is about to be begin with? If none of that is possible for any reason, how about simply keeping the dialogue going forward free of sarcasm? In other words....reasonable and mature and just moving on.

Just food for thought. Regards.

Fair enough, O-1O,  but I could not imagine that “giving the floor” referred to an invitation to comment (again) on clips that have been commented on God knows how many times previously.   Nothing necessarily wrong with that I suppose, but not exactly the first thing that comes to mind.  Very good and classic recordings (again).  

O-10, I did read your post. I did not comment on the clips (not that I thought it was a requirement 🤨) for the simple reason that with the African rhythm dispute so fresh I did not want to add any fuel to the fire by pointing out that the “Moanin” clip that you posted three times does not have Pepper Adams playing on it. The baritone player is Ronnie Cuber, the player that pryso will likely hear when he goes to hear “Mingus Dynasty”. The last “Moanin” clip that you posted by itself is with Pepper Adams. Btw, I don’t know why Rok thought they were better than the originals; I’ll let him speak for himself. Pepper Adams could not have been the reason for why he liked that Moanin better since it wasn’t Pepper. Btw, with so many versions of Tunisia, which do you consider the “original”? For me it would have to be Dizzy’s original, no?

Rok, you leave no recourse but to be blunt. Think about all the times that you have, in a rare moment of magnanimity (unsolicited), said “I just love it when the Frogman points out the fine details in music”; or something to that effect. When you don’t need to have those things pointed out to you and you, yourself, can hear and point some of those details out to others here is when you will be able to hear the African influence and connection to jazz. Or, simply be less cynical and have some faith (not blind) that there are some (and I don’t mean me) who study this kind of stuff on a very high level and know what they are talking about; then use that as a starting point for learning to hear those details. Wynton’s demonstration is actually excellent. If you can’t grasp what he is pointing out, I don’t know what to tell you; it’s pretty clear.

**** Wynton was saying what was expected of him. Nothing more. ****

Pathetic. Again no recourse but to be blunt; you don’t know what you’re talking about.

Btw, I never referred to you or O-10 as amateurs; I wouldn’t do that.

**** I knew personally, professional musicians who played "Hard-Bop", and they would have laughed at you, coming up with this African crap. Like they were playing it but didn’t even know it. ****

Total bs. There probably isn’t or wasn’t  one single “professional” bop musician that doesn’t acknowledge that the basis for jazz rhythms, the underlying influence (and that’s the concept that you guys don’t seem to be able to grasp) is African rhythms; the unique feeling of swing, among other things, which comes right out of those drumming traditions. With respect, O-10, you’re grasping at straws and digging your heels in: not to mention making stuff up.

Over and out on this one. Too bad.

O-10, aside from the generally better sound quality of the first clip, both clips are identical; the exact same recording, strings and all. I think you may be mistaken about the “enhanced strings version” thing. Gorgeous record and one of my desert island records.

Btw, I’m a little confused by your confusion. You wrote: “I think now there is another one (version) with enhanced strings”. The clip you posted (both, since they are the same) DO have strings. That IS the one (and only) version.

Two records mentioned make for interesting parallels. Two completely different genres and styles of both the music and production values; the focus here being the production values.

Quincy Jones’ “Back On The Block” has been one of my “guilty pleasure” records. It showcases the talents of possibly the best pop producer that ever lived. The fact that he was first and foremost a great jazz composer/orchestrator (and trumpet player) was undoubtedly one the things that make him such a great crossover/pop producer. A master at using all that modern studio techniques had to offer to create funky ear-candy that had a lot of musical integrity. Regardless of what one thinks about the music, what he did with the production serves that music to an extraordinarily high degree. Taken on its own terms “BOTB” is a great and fun record which happens to also be a great audiophile showcase; it SOUNDS great.

”Desmond Blue” is also a great record.  One of the first things that I posted here.  Desmond’s playing is superb as always. IMO, this record’s production values are also extremely high and the use of a string orchestra and woodwinds in beautiful lush arrangement serve the music extremely well. Very tasteful orchestrations that match Desmond’s playing style beautifully to the degree that Desmond reacts to and shapes some of his improvisations around those orchestrations. This interplay can be heard easily. In that sense the orchestrations are essential for this record. Beautiful record. Btw, I don’t believe that the strings were “added”. The record was conveived with the orchestrations and I don’t believe there is a version without strings.

Alex, keeping the attention in forgotten players.  Thanks for the great clips.  Forgotten on this thread as well.  You posted Leo Parker a couple of years ago when the focus here (short lived as usual) was baritone saxophonists.  Good to revisit that player.  

Impressive list, mary_jo.  From the list it is clear that Alex is a friend.  

Great Lorez Alexandria clips, O-10; wonderful singer.  Have you heard these?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5LbY2EANfe4

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0MG1dY-A9Ec

Btw, Lorez Alexandria recorded two lps with King Fleming.  Can’t find them on YouTube. 

O-10, there was no malice intended in my post; and you did ask me. So, please, no need for defensiveness nor sarcasm. I am genuinely curious ‘though about what it is you heard that was different in those two clips. Please tell us; perhaps I’m missing something. Btw, I believe acman3’s comment was in reference to Rok’s question re Ornette Coleman.

mary_jo, the pairing of Stan Getz with Bill Evans was one of the most logical and beautiful in jazz.  Two of the most sensitive and introspective players to play this music; the two together was magic.  Their first recording together from 1964 (I think), simply “Stan Getz and Bill Evans” was a studio recording and also a beautiful record.  I first heard this record years ago when it was reissued as part of a two record set.  It was paired with another Getz recording which I would strongly recommend; this one features Chick Corea instead Bill Evans.  That recording with Chick Corea is the highlight of that reissue set and the interplay between Getz and Corea makes for an interesting contrast to that with Evans.  Gorgeous recording which makes the set one of my desert island favorites.  One of Stan Getz’ very best.

Is it still raining over there?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4uujTgF9j10

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IMm8sMB0Y00

Killer bebop session and definitely a must-have record.  One of the best and a testament to Stan Getz’ greatness; he could do it all.  The story behind the title has nothing to do with any kind of distinction between musician and listener.  Rather, it was to suggest a distinction between the real players (musicians) and the wannabes.  Bebop was, to a great extent, a “test” of a jazz player’s “stuff”.  With the blinding fast tempos and intricate melodies many bebop tunes posed a great challenge for players and not all of them could pull it off credibly.  In fact, during jam sessions players would sometimes call tunes that were especially intricate and would count them off at really fast tempos in order to keep lesser players from joining the jam session.  The title’s meaning is akin to that of this other record; one of my favorite jazz record titles as well as favorite record: Hank Mobley’s “No Room For Squares”:

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0C6579B036180F3A

Good to see you back, O-10.

Beautiful Frisell! That’s another piece of NYC; stoop concerts. Thanks, acman3.

Listened to this tonight. It’s no secret how good the JALC band is. Great players with a great leader; although he (Wynton) is not present for this performance. This clip knocked me out. A real and great Latin rhythm section with the great JALC brass and reeds. Almost a revelation to hear some of the vintage Machito and Tito Puente arrangements with brass and reed playing at such a high level. Just as impressive is that they play the charts with the same authentic swagger as the great guest Latin rhythm section; but with sounds and intonation not always heard from early Latin big bands.  

Rok recently asked if Dan Nimmer was the greatest piano player today. I don’t know about “greatest”, but he sounds fabulous playing this style. Great solos from all.

One of the most enjoyable things that I have seen on YouTube. Leader for the night, mc and JALC bass player Carlos Henriquez does a great job talking about the music performed and the history of Afro-Cuban music and Latin Jazz.

Yet another piece of what is NYC and its very diverse musical culture. Highly recommended!

https://youtu.be/1Laj1BHoEaI

Some thoughts on the subject of the “forgotten” or “undiscovered” musician:

I think that there is at least some truth in just about every comment so far re the reasons why some players remain obscure; but not every reason cited is relevant to what I think the core question here is. For example:

Yes, it is true that some players are “young and just getting known”; but the focus of this discussion is mostly musicians from the past who stopped being young a long time ago and had ample opportunity (years) to be better known.

Yes, it is also true that there are and have always been musicians who have wanted to stay home and not go to “the big city”. There are many fine players in towns other than the biggest cities. However, I think we are talking about musicians who make, or are capable of making, significant statements and not just musicians who are good or very good. Musicians are each other’s toughest critics. Just as they can be ruthless by keeping lesser players from playing during jam sessions, they are extremely committed to seeking out those players who, by reputation, are known to be truly great. The news of the young phenom in “small town, USA” who is truly “saying something” new and unique spreads like wildfire in the jazz world; consequently, it is highly unlikely that this player will remain obscure for long.

Yes, it is also true that because of the nature of this music, music in which interaction with other musicians is a more important component than most other genres, being around other players who will challenge and raise the bar is a vital ingredient for becoming a player that is truly great. Being the biggest fish in a small pond is unlikely to result in being one of the big fish in the ocean. Moreover, I think that a player’s willingness and emotional drive to be where the action is and put up with the difficulties that come along with that says something important about the ultimate potential of that player.

Now, let’s put all this in a certain perspective. A quick internet search of “the most underrated jazz musicians” resulted in several lists (opinion, of course) of the top ten most underrated:

http://www.jazz.org/blog/6-underappreciated-jazz-artists-you-should-check-out/

https://www.learnjazzstandards.com/blog/top-ten-underrated-jazz-musicians/

http://toobbox.com/blog/the-10-most-underrated-jazz-musicians/

I am sure that it will be obvious that what is striking about the names on these lists is that with one or two exceptions all of the musicians mentioned have been well covered, or at least mentioned, on this thread. The point is that when assigning “Underrated” status we are digging pretty deep here. Johnny Griffin underrated? Really?!

For me the bottom line is that it is easy to be seduced by the romance of “the undiscovered/underappreciated artist”. Have there been players who are worth hearing and who didn’t get their due? Well, worth hearing, yes; and there have been several posted here thanks mostly to Alex. That didn’t get their due? That’s a little more complicated, imo. What does that mean, exactly? One of Alex’s recent posts was trumpeter Don Sleet. Probably my favorite of all of his “forgotten/undiscovered” players. I was glad to hear and learn about this player. Is Don Sleet a player that brought anything new to jazz or shaped it in any significant way? I don’t think so. Do I want to add Don Sleet recordings to my collection when there are still so many records by Blue Mitchell, Art Farmer, Fats Navarro and others that I still don’t have? Unlikely. Have there been musicians of the artistic caliber of a Satchmo, Bird, Miles, Sonny Rollins, Trane, Bill Evans and, yes, Ornette Coleman, or even the “tier” below (Johnny Griffin) that slipped through the cracks and were never discovered or have been forgotten? Not a chance in hell.

I don’t think we even need to go to the issue of the popularity of jazz relative to other genres. First, many ( most) of the artists we are talking about predate R&R and were active when jazz was, in fact, a popular genre. Those “top ten underrated” lists are intended and considered by listeners that already have an interest in jazz; and, sadly, most pop/rock listeners today wouldn’t have a clue as to who Rollins or Coleman were. The point is that longevity of popularity of artists from the heyday of jazz is determined, more times than not, by the ultimate level of their contribution to the music.

mary_jo, I don’t disagree with anything you wrote and I don’t see where there is any real disagreement between our respective general positions on this based on what we have written.  On a general scale, the big picture, history speaks for itself.  On a smaller (personal) scale, who “is worth of the attention” of anyone of us is a personal thing and for me it comes down to the simple fact that there are only so many hours in the day ☺️.  Just so we understand  each other, what specifically about what I wrote do you not agree with?  

mary_jo, thanks for your comments.

**** It is as if you are saying: If the unknown one had been good enough (meaning great), we would have heard about him for sure. ****

Well, that is exactly what I am saying.  Now, to be clear, we are talking about comparison to the greatest.  Was there some unknown player in some little town that was of the exalted caliber of Miles or Trane that chose to remain anonymous, or ”didn’t get the breaks” to become well known during his lifetime or at some point after?  I suppose it’s possible that there has been an example or two of musicians with that POTENTIAL who, for personal reasons didn’t want the limelight; but I seriously doubt it for the reasons mentioned previously.  A player needs to be in playing settings that push him to full potential; staying in obscurity doesn’t allow that.  Moreover, part of what drives a creative artist is the need to express himself; so.....
“if a tree falls in the forest and there is no one there to hear it, does it make a sound?”

Let me try and explain what I mean this way, and let’s try and look at the issue in concrete terms and not just the abstract.  Again, I am always glad to learn of some lesser known player.  It’s always interesting and sometimes adds to the historical context.  This is not a reflection at all of how I feel about Alex’s focus (sometimes) on lesser known players. I appreciate the posts very much and have enjoyed much of the music.  However, to be frank, I can’t think of a single one that has been posted who has caused me to think, based on MY feeling about the quality of the playing relative to most of the well known players of the same instrument, ”hey, he could have been a Miles or Morgan or....”.   

Concrete, not abstract, question for you or anyone else:  who and how/why?

You are quite right, mary_jo, I agree with what Alex is saying. The only thing I would disagree with is that I don’t believe for one second that jazz will be forgotten. It will always be here. Different; it always changes. The reason it sometimes seems that there is nothing new to hear is that jazz evolves; but we don’t always keep up.

Very nice King Fleming clips, Alex; I enjoyed those.  Shades of Ahmad Jamal...big time.  

pryso, I do indeed know most of those guys; some of the top young (ish) jazz players in NYC. Terrific players. For some perspective, and certainly not to take anything away from any of them, but simply to highlight the following point: an ongoing project like “Mingus Dynasty” has a pool of players that is drawn from for each “chair” based on individual availability. A lot of the players in that pool are very busy with other projects and touring. So, some players like Ronnie Cuber who is a particularly great player may not have been available to travel for those concerts. My point is simply that jazz is not dying and will not die. There are so many great players out there, and many more coming, that are committed to the art form. I firmly believe that the decline in jazz has bottomed out. It will certainly not return to the level of popularity that it once had, but it will be with us for a long time. I think that part of the reason for the negativity about the future of jazz is that many listeners get locked into a very narrow range of style “likes”. It’s also one of the reasons that sometimes they feel they can’t find new music. The amount of good jazz to discover is practically endless. Imo, listeners who are completely closed to the styles of the past (ragtime, hot-jazz, swing) can not possibly be a good judge of where it’s headed.

A couple of the guys you heard that night:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dF2zLBHtdzs

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Dkx_UxgUFEs

pryso, excellent account of the music and the players at the Mingus Dynasty concert.  I agree with you about Cruz.  Fantastic drummer.  If you like modern jazz with a dose of Latin check out his work with pianist Danilo Perez; excellent.  Interesting observation about the two Russian born players.  I would say that a few decades ago there was some truth to the stereotype about jazz players from Europe and the East (with some exceptions, of course).  But I think it is no longer the case and it’s a testament to the fact that jazz is gaining popularity and not going anywhere.  Glad you liked the show.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-KK__zBHnSc

O-10, my intention was not to make an assessment about your musical tastes. I think you may have misinterpreted what I wrote. My point was that, if anything, some jazz fans don’t go back far enough in time; or look to the future. Not quite sure what the Julliard thing has to do with the subject at hand. I would just point out that the recent clip of “Moanin” which was deemed “better than the original” was of a performance by players many of whom are conservatory trained. An asset not a liability. On a more personal note, I would sincerely encourage you to not be so pessimistic about the future of jazz. It will persevere and benefits from our support for its future.

**** one foot in the past and one in the future-**** ps

Exactly!

O-10, thanks for your response. For the sake of hopefully interesting discussion:

What makes you think that Cuber was imitating Adams? He was not. He was improvising around the music AS WRITTEN by Mingus bringing his own style to it. He sounded very different from Pepper. Also, why do you assume that the “new generation” of players are not improvising? You seem to be suggesting that only the players from the past improvised. Obviously, not so. Different, yes; and in some ways more harmonically advanced. Anyone of us may not like this newer, harmonically thornier style, but it is certainly spontaneous improvisation and it is the nature of this music to build on what came before it. I look forward to your comments.

Excellent clips, acman3. Sonny Rollins “A Night At The Vanguard” is a classic. Amazing player with one of the most powerful sense of rhythm of any jazz player. I am always amazed at the way that he becomes the rhythmic focal point. Instead of the usual sense that the horn player is playing over the pulse of the rhythm section there is the sense that it’s the other way around; the rhythm section plays to his pulse. Few players convey that feeling. And very nice seque to that great Ornette clip. Your comment about it being a natural extension of bebop is spot on. A very influential record that would lay the groundwork for what is generally referred to as “post-bop”. Fantastic solo by Ornette.

Great clips appropriately followed by pryso’s Jaco clip. As you point out, pryso, a very influential bass player. Actually a bit of an understatement I would say. Jaco turned the electric bass world on its head doing things on the instrument that players hadn’t even considered. Unique tone in part due to his choice of the fretless bass. Amazing technique and rhythmic concept that would be one of the main ingredients of a whole new wave in jazz informed by not only the past, but the new sounds of fusion and world music. He was a pretty good drummer too, btw. One of my most memorable experiences while in school in South Florida was that Jaco would occasionally bring his big band charts to be read by the school big band and would sit in on drums. Very raw drummer, but great! Did anyone catch the fact that Othello Mollinaux (steel drums) quotes Coltrane’s classic solo on Giant Steps (@8:00)?

Nice to see some focus on the new(ish) in jazz.

O-10, loved the MJQ clip; thanks for that. Great and very charming composition played with their usual finesse and class. One of the things I find interesting about the clip, particularly in the context of our previous discussion about what is improvisation and what is not, is that there isn’t a single note on the clip that is improvised. It’s all “through-composed” and in keeping with a lot of what is generally considered “Third Stream”. Beautiful clip.

Something new from one of my favorite current pianists. Beautiful touch and introspection. One of this year’s Grammy nominations:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PL9tsD2Q6tx6vQg2uJ9N6P3gi0CxOoWefV&params=OAFIAVgB&v=UMw5z4...

Classic record!   And I completely agree.  He was one of the first (possibly the first) to have the courage to play without a harmony instrument (piano, guitar).  He didn’t need it.  His command of harmony and creativity was so high that the listener “hears” the underlying harmonies of the tune as if there were a piano or guitar playing.  There is, as you say, the feeling that there is more there.  His solos were concise with very choice notes that clearly outlined the chord changes is an extremely logical way.  Take most jazz performances by other players, even many great ones, and somehow edit out the harmony instrument and the music is not nearly as effective.  He is also a master of note inflections and color; little note bends and subtle growls that add variety without relying on a lot of notes.  Great observation!

O-10, a couple of things that you may find interesting about the brilliant Fred Hersch.  First, there is not a single one of his ten plus records that is not worth hearing.  In 2008 he was in a pneumonia induced coma.  When he came out of the coma he wrote a performance piece about the dreams that he had while in his state of coma.  On this record, “Though The Forest” is completely improvised and “of the moment”.  Amazing musician!