I think Ali Jackson’s solo is great! Completely appropriate and idiomatic; which is more than can be said about Clapton’s. Yikes! A little out of his league I think. Re drum solos in general:
Wether we like drum solos or not there is a certain “jazz dynamic” that I think should be considered; it may not make everyone start to like drum solos but may put things in better context and perhaps help dislike them less . pryso alluded to this in an earlier post and Rok’s Wynton clip is a great example. It’s sort of an unwritten rule that in certain situations everyone gets to solo; everyone gets to tell his story. This goes to the communal element in jazz; kind of an old school respect thing.
During my college days in South Florida there was a weekly jam session at the local Unitarian Church led by the local jazz guru the great Ira Sullivan. It was open to anyone who wanted to play and also attracted an audience. At least every other weekend this guy who clearly had a few screws loose and who fancied himself a percussionist would show up to “play”. Horrible doesn’t begin to describe the sh&t this guy would play; completely out of time. He was musically clueless. Ira would NEVER say a word and always let the guy play as long as he wanted. Imagine a grooving band and someone hammering next door building cabinets.
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O-10, careful now! In the current social climate comments like that can could get you in a lot of trouble.
You know, as I think about it, why that is kind of goes with Rok’s clip. |
Pretty awful. Very telling, but irrelevant.
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Thanks for that, pryso. Love Mingus and love Mitchell. I am aware of the connection, but have only heard a couple of the songs off that record. I went through a period when I wanted to hear every single thing that Jaco Pastorius (another South Florida hero) ever did. I’ll listen to the album in its entirety tonight. Hadn’t heard the whale story. Difficult to accept as you say, but......
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O -10 , lighten up, please . My comment was a humorous one; a joke, JOKE! in reference to all the sexual harassment allegations in the news recently; nothing more. It should have been obvious especially being on the heels of my comment to pryso just before it. Moreover, I have not “engaged” in any subject except music with you, so please leave me out of this. Having said all that, my apology, I’ll try and remember to no bring humor to my comments intended for you. |
Nice clips, Alex. Ok, it’s time to lighten up the mood and to up the ante in the games dept. Challenge: Why is the following clip appropriate for the Holiday Season? Hint: Listen carefully. 😎 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5kiY9tKkvtk |
Here we go. Challenge v 2: But since the answer is in the responses, for a true challenge, can anyone identify the tune playing in the background as the dude in the clip sets up HIS challenge? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xc50FsGS2csAnd one more challlenge; if you can stop laughing long enough. Gotta love youtube. Actually, five challenges and identify your answers by #: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wJl7V5Y3grs |
Excellent! We have a winner. No coal in your Xmas stocking. |
I think Basie is tough to beat using the original criteria. But therein lies the problem; the original criteria were a little vague I think. What artist is saying the most at any given time is a strictly subjective thing. And when the facts are presented via actual number of notes played it may be dismissed as “playing technical games”. So, what to do? I can make a perfectly plausible (I think) case for why the SILENCE between two well placed notes in one of Miles’ solos says more than anything else; after all, while it may sound like a cliche, it is true that in a composition the rests (silences) are every bit as important as the notes. Take any tune and remove the silences and see what happens ☺️ Then we have the problem that for it to be a real challenge the provided clip should not identify the tune at all. So, for me the original premise is the best while still allowing for individual subjectivity. Iow, there will be no “winners”. I’m good with that. No reason to not have a few variations of the original game ‘though. Cheers all.
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Good work, Rok! Excellent, pryso! The aficionados are digging deep! Now, re the tune in the background. A hint (in more ways than one 😉): https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iNxujJGnbB4C’mon, O-10, (and all) join the party; ‘‘tis the season...”. |
Ok, since no one is biting re the identification of the background tune in the video clip, here is one more and final hint in addition to my unbelievably clever first hint 😊 which apparently no one got: the composer of the tune was a big band leader recently mentioned here in reference to his famous saxophone section whose members were not sisters 😉. His name is referenced (sort of) in the title of the tune 🤔. C’mon aficionados, show us what you got! |
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Happy and Healthy New Year to all! |
Two fantastic clips, acman3. Loved the Zorn album; had read about this collaboration, but hadn’t heard it. Zorn is a very interesting musician who is one of the stars NYC’s “downtown” scene which puts out some very eclectic stuff. Known as an avant-garde player he can, as you point out, really swing...in his own unique way. Great record. Who needs a rhythm section when you have Bill Frisell? He sounds amazing on this. Also enjoyed the Walt Dickerson. Talk about setting a mood! Thanks for the clips.
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Nice interview with the great Phil Woods, but it doesn’t really address the question posed by Rok.
**** I could not tell if he changed Jazz , or was he just the best player to express the change. ****
That’s actually a very interesting and important question. I think the answer is both.
First, I am really glad to see questions like that raised. When this thread was still young the notion of “evolution” in jazz was not only misunderstood, but was practically entirely dismissed as a pointless academic exercise. The significance and importance of “evolution” in jazz cannot be overstated. While it is true that some players come along that shake things up in a way that is radical, to a very large extent that new and radical change in the direction of any art form builds on what came before it. There is usually a certain logic to the evolution.
Parker’s music can be said to be a culmination of musical trends that were already taking shape with jazz players in general moving away from the typical swing style that was prevalent up until then. If one listens to what players like Bud Powell and Coleman Hawkins were doing before Bird came on the scene it is easy to hear and understand the lineage. When Bird went to New York (yes, NY) he found that many players there were already experimenting with musical ideas which built on and departed from the traditional swing style and that would lay the groundwork for bebop. It could be said that Bird (and Dizzy) put it (the new trends) all together in a way that was the most cogent and clear.
One of my favorite stories in all of jazz lore and one that makes the point about the inevitable “logic” of this evolution is the story of when Sonny Stitt met Charlie Parker in the early ‘40s. Having grown up and worked as a jazz player in Michigan, Stitt had never even heard Parker play. Yet, when they met they found that their styles were remarkably similar. This has been corroborated by many prominent players that knew them both.
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Absolutely true. Both genres are serious art forms and the best examples of each are on equally high levels, imo. But, Mozart performed by the Vienna Philharmonic is on an entirely different level than when performed by the Cincinnati Pops. And he didn’t need two drummers!: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ayNEiQvKqachttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pWFF1fYIkHYYou’re right about Killer Joe; on Q’s “Walking In Space”. |
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A musically pointless exercise in incredible instrumental virtuosity and equally pointless obnoxious showmanship.
..... you asked 🙃 |
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Rok, there is very little, if any, hype about Michel Legrand as a great jazz player. I agree with most of what you wrote and I think your description of him is actually spot on. The hype is about how he is, first and foremost, a great composer/orchestrator of great movie scores and beautiful tunes that often lend themselves to jazz interpretations. When I hear his music I often think of a hip little roadster speeding around mountain roads. I think his music should be judged for what it is and on those terms it’s great. His piano playing has that certain European sense of swing that to says “white” (sorry) and keeps him from the top tier of players.
I also agree about Phil Woods; perhaps the greatest...in many ways. The only caveat being that he would have been the first to admit that he copied Bird a lot. As was mentioned recently, he built on Bird’s vocabulary to develop his own voice. Technically, he was unsurpassed. Great player.
re Rachmaninov: forget what the reviewer said. How did YOU like his music? I can understand why you think “movie music”. Unabashedly beautiful melodies and masterful orchestrations. One of the greatest composers. Check out his “Symphonic Dances” and get back to me. |
I liked the rat fur story ☺️; but I thought you didn’t pay much attention to reviewers.
Time to bring O-10’s game back.
Riddle: What do all the songs in O-10’s Estrella Morente clip have in common?
Any takers?
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That’s right, O-10! All Brazilian songs and not a single Flamenco song. I like her. I’m a little mixed about the Flamenco vocal inflections in Brazilian songs, but I like her. |
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In case the veiled and good natured sarcasm of my last post was not recognized (I know it was by Alex) it should be pointed out that this topic was beaten to death (pun intended) here eons ago with much factual data submitted for anyone who wants to search the “archives”.
shadorne is quite correct.
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**** I'm too busy playing. When I'm playing I don't pay attention to who's listening. When I was listening I listened to symphony orchestras, Beethoven, Bach, Brahms, Stravinsky. You don't listen to one instrument; you listen to music. ****
Charles Mingus
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pryso is exactly right about the way that Hollywood distorted Native American drumming. Are we surprised? However, that unfortunate fact should not be taken to mean that drumming was not an integral and very important part of the culture; it was. Same thing goes for African cultures. Its a fascinating topic and there is a ton of interesting reading on the topic available on line. |
Rok, out of curiosity are you using an Apple IPad or IPhone to post? I’ve been experiencing the same thing and wondered if it had anything to do with the recently publicized deliberate slowing down of devices by Apple.
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What do you get when you combine the innately “feel good” and “up” musical personality of one of the greatest jazz improvisers and most gorgeous alto sounds that ever was with the music of Brazil?....magic: https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL7C6B5ED9CF45686AHere’s the original album cover. The YouTube poster’s turntable was running a little slow. The first clip is correct, but a different track order for some reason. Love this record! : https://youtu.be/UQYqzGn8lzY |
Nice Baden Powell clips, O-10. I enjoyed those. Thanks! The Getz/Gilberto is a classic and I love that record, but I don’t get your comparison to the Cannonball/Mendes other than the fact that they both feature the bossa. Totally different saxophone styles, very different feels overall and one vocal one not. Glad you liked it ‘though. I have a somewhat different take on the rhythm pattern/religion connection in African cultures. I don’t think it’s any more of a mystery why this has survived than why any religion, including my RC, has held on to its religious music traditions over thousands of years. This goes to the previous discussion about drumming and its place indigenous cultures. Very important to the culture and something that is held on to generation to generation for centuries even when the people are displaced. A cultural staple if you will. One of my favorite contemporary Brazilian artists is Milton Nascimento. Wonderful song writer: https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLDFA679254DC1F603&v=pn_xs6EIG4EThis collaboration with the great Wayne Shorter is a classic: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GTAIjxoSKLk |
Very nice clips, Alex; thanks. Charlie Rouse playing Bossas; what a surprise! Had not heard that record nor knew of its existence. Not the style of playing nor music that I have associated with Charlie Rouse. I have always thought of Rouse: dry tone, clipped phrases, somewhat aggressive rhythmically. All good and individualistic traits (perfect for Monk’s music), but not the style of playing that immediately comes to mind in association with Bossa Nova. And it works! He sounds wonderful on this. This is one I have to find. I was intrigued by the credits on the Dave Pike album cover; another I didn’t know. Clark Terry has always been one of my favorite trumpet/flugelhorn players and he hasn’t gotten enough attention here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_30XmNMsKvYWelcome back! |
I thought the topic was rhythm in religious practices; not the blues per se. Still....
I suspect that it’s probably safer to not to open this can of worms again; but the origin of the blues, because of the importance of the blues in jazz, is a subject that deserves to be better understood by anyone claiming to be a jazz enthusiast. It is not well understood at all. There is much material available on the subject that clearly points to what is something that is acknowledged by practically all authorities on the subject; perhaps except “authorities” here. The blues clearly has its roots in Africa and understanding this will open the door to better understanding evolution in jazz. I encourage all to do a simple internet search on the subject; fascinating stuff.
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Has nothing to do with elitism, but simply factual ethnomusicology; however, I do realize that sometimes big hard to pronounce words carry negative connotations for some 😕. I find great irony in the fact that I can’t think of a single jazz musician that has been mentioned here that would dispute the notion. Re the distinction made between Delta blues and blues in general: Why the broad distinction? Still blues, no? Sure, it has some traits unique to the Delta, but still blues; same roots.
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Reconsider? Not at all. In fact, I would submit to you that their terrible hardships are all the more reason that they hung on to those traditions. They had little else besides those traditions.
O-10, in the Caribbean the religion which was practiced by slaves of African descent and a religion which lives on today even in the USA is called “Santeria”. Look up “Santeria” and what gave birth to it. You’ll find the answer there.
Regards. |
O-10, Coltrane/Hartman on vinyl is a gem; can’t recommned that Impulse/Vangelder recording enough. One of my faves. If you are patient hold out for an original Impulse, the mono version is also very good. If you have to get a reissue the Speakers Corner reissue is excellent. Personally, I would go for the original mono which will be easiest to find. Good luck. |
Btw, per a recent comment by Rok, that’s Wynton Kelly on bass. That’s right, bass! |
+1 pryso for the appreciation of ghosthouse’s link; beautiful stuff. And thanks for that Etta James clip; fabulous. Love Etta James (and Jones, too). Very soulful singer. Beautiful piano by the great Cedar Walton and tasty obbligatos by Red Holloway on tenor. Here’s another favorite rendition of that great song. This time with a little less grease and a little more vocal polish; a little “Hollywood” perhaps, but great. Also, the seldom heard introduction. Not better or worse, just different: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=g1-j6RcNup8 |
O-10, you wouldn’t get an argument from me with that pick. I know I’ve posted this at least once before. For anyone who hasn’t heard this. Kills me every time: https://youtu.be/QBmrDS2Zhaw |
Love the tune. Love the playing. Love JB. Love the band. Love the sentiment........the title? Yikes! 🤪 |
O-10, well that was certainly a less complicated answer....”Yes”. I still think she’s a Buddhist. Buddhism, Zen; you know...that stuff 🤔 |
Great clips of Julie and Christy; thanks O-10 and Pryso. Aside from the pure enjoyment, two things “jumped out” at me when I listened to those great clips of those two beautiful singers. First, like the influence that Charlie Parker had on practically every player that followed is the sometimes subtle but clear influence that Billie Holliday had on singers of that era on phrasing and vocal shadings The other is bewilderment, once again, over the attention and adulation that a singer like Diana Krall receives today when there are so many practically forgotten singers who were on an entirely different artistic level. Here’s another from a gem of a record that I have: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hIowseyFdEkhttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yiW0ANvFpKA |
Rok, amazing Wes Montgomery clip. Swinging like mad and lots of heat. Loved it! Thanks for that. Wes Montgomery is brilliant as always and Johnny Griffin sounds amazing.
I love the way great players “communicate” during a great performance and send musical cues to each other that then influence the way the other player plays; players are glued to each other musically and taking in everything that each other does. There’s a great example of this in that clip. Listen to what Montgomery does in his solo at 1:39, he plays a phrase by sliding from note to note in a way that is actually very “guitaristic”, but stands out in the context of the entire solo. Now, listen to what Johnny Griffin does at 4:45 in his solo. Griffin is one my favorite tenor players and I have many recordings of him as leader, as sideman and I heard him live twice (Village Vanguard, 90’s); I have never heard him do what he did at 4:45. He mimicked what Wes did at 1:39. If one listens really closely, in the background one can hear who I would bet is Wes Montgomery saying “Yeah!” after the first time Griffin makes those note slides, as if to say “You owe me a beer”. Love that stuff! That’s a record to buy.
btw, what is that voice at 2:40. Some strange Satanic message? 😳
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pryso, shame how careful one has to be with what is said about a woman, and just about anything, these days. Oh, hell.....yeah, easy on the eyes....kinda; she has skinny legs.
rok, after going gaga over “The Sound Of Red” and playing it constantly several months back when I posted it here, my wife bought me tickets to see Renee Marie at The Jazz Standard in NYC for my birthday. Fantastic show! During the break my wife and I wandered over towards the bar near which she had a small table in the corner with her CDs for sale; none of which I had heard except for “TSOR”. My wife picked one out and had her sign it; it was “The Voice Of My Beautiful Country”. We chit chatted for a minute. The woman has THE THING in spades. You know, that hard to describe quality that makes a woman beautiful and very sexy and which has little to do with her looks. Style and attitude. Great singer. |
**** don't remember ever seeing Krall's legs ****
Exactly. I rest my case 😊 |
I’ve never seen Elvis’ legs (😱), but he’s a much better singer and artist than Diana, imo. |
