Jazz for aficionados

Back at ya!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fEWHPM_xeE

Cheers

You guys aren't exchanging salvos, you're exchanging Tomes!!

Keep'em coming. :)

Cheers

Posting this for the benefit of the Great Unwashed,  so we can follow this 'ruckus'.


sub·jec·tive1/səbˈjektiv/ adjective

1. based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions: Contrasted with objective.
synonyms:personal, individual, emotional, instinctive, intuitive

ob·jec·tive1/əbˈjektiv/ adjective

1. (of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts: Contrasted with subjective.
synonyms:impartial, unbiased, unprejudiced, nonpartisan;  More

Don't see why there should be any disagreement.   Each point of view is valid.

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This Morning's Listen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CT37-5IE4yE


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Hiroshima Live EMMY WINNING VIDEO

In what 'category' did they win this Grammy?

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***** .'Thanks therefore, to what is harmonicus in us, we perceive harmonius composition of sounds, and we delight in them for we understand that we are made in their likeness.Similarity is pleasing, therefore, whereas dissimilarity is odius'.Boethius (480-526) De Musica*****

Sounds like the Subjectivity  O-10 is talking about.   "if I like it, it's good".  Of course, The OP was not as long winded and pompous as brother Boethius.

Cheers

***** those drumbeats are connected to movements in dance.*****

Well they must be doing the same movements over and over forever, because this stuff is just repetitive.

Think of the dancers as the soloists.   The drummers are just laying down a track.   Sort of like rap.

***** The dancing that accompanies this music is as structured as any European dance;*****

You cannot be serious!!

***** they have to practice*****

I thought you said improvisers don't have to practice!   You are confusing the Unwashed.

***** I saw dancers in the Kathryn Dunham school of dance where they are taught dances she learned in Africa. *****

Bogus.   Part of the pitiful attempt by Liberals and 'activists' to create things in Africa that don't exist today, let alone centuries ago.

I mistrust anything that can't be written down, or at the least, be perform over and over again with a high degree of fidelity.

Cheers

 

***** In doing so we should talk about history of music (jazz at least) and about of evolution of personal, cultural and social values that one needs to comprehend before can give a worthy opinion about the subject. I*****


This being a Jazz thread, I assume you will talk about the history of Jazz.   That means starting in the Southern U.S. in general, or New Orleans in particular.   That's where Jazz and it's history started.

Now, you should quote folks like Jelly Roll Morton and Louis Armstrong.

Cheers

If you just absolutely, positively, must have dance, try these.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc_DuM8h6wU   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmOFAtg9twM 

cheers

Well this is not a quiz show.  (what's my line?)   Tell us who he is.   Then we will know.  Checks from Blue Note?  That's a big time label.  You name him, and we will know if he practiced or not.

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O-10:

You don't have a leg to stand on.   ALL performers and entertainers practice their craft.  Even stand up comedians.

Your friend was just a Local guy.  Maybe he didn't practice because he knew his audience and their level of musical appreciation / sophistication.   Had he been trying to have a career in a p[lace like NYC, he would have practiced, or been on welfare.  

Medium-sized  fish in a very small pond comes to mind.  

Cheers

***** First Leon Thomas, and now Dave pike; do those people's estates get more money, or just the record companies see more profit?*****

One of the strange, and good things, about recorded Jazz music is that a lot, if not most, of the greatest Jazz ever recorded, can be had for less than $10 per CD, while the newer 'Jazz' sometime cost $20 or more.  Go figure.

KOB $6.99 on Amazon.

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If you were buying music, or anything else, based upon recommendations from 'Stereophile', you were indeed lost.

Now 'Stereo Review', they knew their music.   Are those howls I hear?

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I paid $40 for a CD once.  Oscar Peterson's "Girl Talk".   Some sort of Japanese pressing.   The only one I could find, and I had to have "On A Clear Day" on CD.

$40 is not a lot to pay for great music.   The key word being GREAT.

I would pay 40 dollars for these.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wG6Cgmgn5U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrRhkY9CIz8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F28X8--2dFU

Remember when music was always New and Exciting?  Lord, I miss those days.

Cheers

@learsfool 

***** Honestly, O-10, any good student musician, and certainly all professionals, can do what you are talking about here, no matter what type of music they play.  Your last sentence above is truly absurd for this reason.*****

You need to read Nica's book.   Quite a few of the Jazz musicians in her book, and we are speaking of some of the best, said being able to play what was in their head was  their most wished for ability.

When if come to arrogance, you are without peer on this thread. Calling a person 'arrogant', just for disagreeing with you, is in itself, the height of arrogance.

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***** who's motivation is as transparent as Rok and Orpheus. They are what they are, it is readily apparent to the most casual observer, and they are not going to change.******

Could you elaborate?  This is not an 'audiophile' thread, here we say what we mean.   No need to beat around the bush.  I look forward to you explaining my 'motivation' to me.

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Mercy Lord, Mercy!!
Read my posts.  I told O-10 that all entertainers must practice.  Here it is.

***** O-10:

You don't have a leg to stand on.   ALL performers and entertainers practice their craft.  Even stand up comedians.

Your friend was just a Local guy.  Maybe he didn't practice because he knew his audience and their level of musical appreciation / sophistication.   Had he been trying to have a career in a p[lace like NYC, he would have practiced, or been on welfare.  ******

Do I have to say everything twice.  You people need to pay attention.
Now, if O-10 says his friend did not practice, who are we to say different.   Does not mean that can be applied to all musicians.

BTW, I don't practice either.  Wanna hear me play?  :)

Cheers

When you argue with God, that's arrogance.    I will assume neither of you claim to be The Lord.

The idea that Jazz is some intellectual exercise, is what is destroying, or has destroyed Jazz.  Brought about by folks with degrees from 'elite' schools, that are very competent playing their instrument, have loads of book learning, but have absolutely ZERO feel for the music.

Their sole mission is try and make Jazz something that ANYONE can play.   As Seven of Nine might say, "They Will Fail".

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***** Study the origins of Bebop, then come back. They were studying everyday what the classical composers of their time were doing.*****

This is what is called 'wishful thinking' .

(1) Name me some classical music that you can point to and say, "this is the origin of be-bop".   If anything, 20th century Classical Composers stole from Jazz.

(2) Jazz was around long before Be-bop.    Study that, then come back.

Cheers

***** Tell Armsrong, Parker, Ellington,Miles, ect, it was not about intellect. *****

Tell the boys down in New Orleans it was about intellect.   They were the creators, lest we forget.   You misspelled Armstrong, That was the Lord's way of saying, 'don't you put Pops on that list"!

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I read the article again, and now I know who he is, A first class jerk!

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Well, if my leaving meant that you would participate, I will gladly leave.   I can always read the thread.  I don't have to post.   I did leave once, and waited on the deluge of new posters.  Nothing happened.

I wish there were more posters, if I am the problem, I'm out of here.

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O-10 it is not a good idea to bring personal relationships into this thread.   You knew this player and he was your friend.   The rest of us didn't know him, and we look at him  in an entirely 'objective' manner.

When I posted a guy I went to school with, you said he sucked.  I didn't protest because I always thought he was somewhat of  a noise-maker myself.

As pertains to all outstanding disagreements, I have declared victory, so, as Jafant says, Lets get back to the music.

Cheers

reference the newbee  post:

I am always amazed at the number of people who claim they depend on The Frogman to enlighten them about Jazz, but never make any input themselves.

They never ask any questions.   Never make any comment,  except to criticize the OP and me.  Always In the sense that the OP and I are keeping The Frogman and Learsfool from educating them.  We stand in their way!!

Well, this is an open forum.   You have as much access to our gurus as anyone else.  Nothing to say in over three years!  How much interest in Jazz could they really have?

But I think they are like comets of doom, that come this way every so often. They will soon return to  the land of audiophiles, never to be seen for another three years.

Allow me to state the obvious.   99.999% of what The Frogman and Learsfool post on this thread is in response to something or some subject introduced by The OP or myself.  There are several more regulars that post less often.

I don't know where we would be, without The Frogman and Learsfool's  knowledge and their ready willingness to share it.

I do know where we would be, if this thread depended on someone like newbee.   Like, nowhere man, nowhere.

Cheers

Listened to David pike. The entire album.   Hard to find fault with Brazilian music.   This was pleasant enough,  but nothing exceptional.  Clark Terry was very subdued.  If you weren't paying attention you may not have noticed he was there.

If they don't really bang on the vibes, the notes will seem to run together.  Guess Hampton and Bags have spoiled me.

One thing about finding new music.  No only has it got to be new to you, but it has to be exceptional.   I liked this music, but I would not feel compelled to order it.

Speaking of Clark Terry, I was going to post him today, but the 'Ruckus' erupted and I was distracted.  Today's Listen was supposed to be -- 'COLOR CHANGES'.

Includes your boy  Yusef Lateef.  Check it out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36aF7B5hzv4&index=1&list=PLp2dpqr8nszQCnZ907ZEhA8GqBtHIgOvf

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This may not be Jazz, but it's beautiful.   She should be a Jazz singer. :)    I listen to her a lot.

Female Jazz singer could be the part of Jazz that's in the worst shape these days.   Once you get past Dee Dee and Salvant, pickings become very slim.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFdQoYaijoU  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOT0jjkhTkw 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFJRX2DkHzQ  

Cheers

Well, now that our so-called, 'condescending teachers', have had their say, lets let the 'students' speak.

First I would like for our OP to list all, or at least some of the things he has learned from The Frogman and Learsfool.  Learned about music.

I will do the same.   I'll go first.  Acman3 feel free to weigh in also.

(1)  I learned about the functions / duties of a section leader / Principal in a Symphony Orchestra from Learsfool.

(2)  From Learsfool, I also learned a bit about the financial side of Symphony Orchestras.

(3)  From Learsfool, I learned a bit about the World of Orchestra Conductors.  How they are hired, how does a person train to be one etc.....

From The Frogman, I was 'taught' That Stravinsky ranks right up there with Mozart as a Composer.  This went in one ear and out the other.

The Frogman also informed me that a certain clip of the Trumpet player, Tom Harrell, that I called 'noise', was actually the 'perfect' bebop solo.
I have never in my life ever heard or read of any performance by anyone being called 'perfect'.  I took that for what it was worth.


That's about it for me.  Not a lot after three years.  Looking forward to hearing what all the other 'students' learned from these self-appointed, 'teachers'.

I think they are both  full of themselves.   But that could be just one man's opinion.

Newbee did make a wonderful suggestion to The Frogman.   Why not start your own thread, then you can teach all of the 'pedestrian' Jazz Lovers of Audiogon.

BTW, If you have a few moments, could you list some of that 'misinformation' that O-10 and I put out?      Thanks.

Cheers

Too late.  I Have had it for years.  I think Solo and Cookery are two of her best.  Esp when you consider the quality of the recordings.

Cheers

Acman3 & O-10:

Karrin Allyson!!   WOW!!   You guys hit back to back home-runs.

Did you noticed the instruments on 'So Danco Samba' were very similar to the Dave Pike clip, but much better playing on Trumpet, Guitar, and much, much better Vibe playing.  Love that Brazilian music.

'Everything must Change' just had me motionless.   Fantastic.   Being from KC is good.   Great Jazz town.

Now this is the kind of 'New Music' that increases your collection.  Always good to meet new talent.   At least new to me.

Thanks for the clips.

Cheers

Learsfool:

Speaking of musical instruments.   Where does / did the impetus for creating or developing new musical instruments come from? 

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Newbee:
 
Seems like I have seen or been in this movie before.   A certain person throws a hissy-fit, and storms off the thread.  Then we have all these previously unknown and unheard 'supporters' 'coming forward' to say things like "you did your best", "they are beyond help", "why do you even bother", "you fought the good fight", etc........ oops   almost forget the most dreaded of all  "they are arrogant".

Now I have asked this question before, with no answer.   There is never an answer.   But, since you are sort of new as a poster I thought maybe you could answer this question.

Exactly what is it that certain people are trying to teach us, that we, because of our ignorance and / or arrogance just don't seem to get?

If I knew the answer to this, perhaps the whole thread would be different and more civil.  Please answer if you feel you can.   And in DETAIL with examples.

Thanks

Cheers

Speaking of Jazz divas.   Miss Wright made the cover of Downbeat in Jan 2016.   This CD, (Dreaming  Wide Awake) made it to number one on the Contemporary Jazz Charts.   For what that's worth.

She is sort of hard to put in any box.   Sings blues and gospel also.  From Georgia, sang in the church, father was a preacher, College in Atlanta.  So far so good. 

Then near disaster.   Attended  the New School in NYC and also 'studied' in Canada.   But, she seems to have survived the experience with her musical sensibilities intact..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FobnjdYOnyw

Her Gospel CD is pretty good also. (Fellowship).

Cheers

Shostakovich's music :


One thing to keep in mind about this composer and other Russians from his era.   Their music had to meet the approval of Stalin and the Communist Party (NKVD).   A bad review could be deadly.

Cheers

***** One of the things that I most enjoy about both Frogman and Learsfool is their continuing interest in the music itself without a chronological anchor. A trait I think most musicians share.*****

I think the opposite.   All musicians have a chronological anchor.   Which is different from being stuck in the past.  Some may venture way out there (miles, trane, mingus) but they always knew where they and the music came from.

The problem might be that many modern player's anchor point is only a few years ago.  Long after the Golden age.

Cheers

@onhwy61 

***** You would have a better chance of changing the mind of a creationist regarding biological evolution.******

Or changing the minds of audiophiles that can 'hear,' fuses, or cable lifters, or speaker wire, or bricks on top of their CD players, or green magic marker on their CDs, or....I'm beginning to feel 'unclean', so I think I'll stop now.   You get my drift.

BTW, I always consider  these beliefs held by Audiophiles when listening to comments or advice from people on this forum.  Puts them and their thoughts in proper perspective.

Cheers

***** Rok,    If you are interested in 'jazz' vocalists you might be interested in the music of Laverne Butler, Rene Marie, and Mary Stallings. All contemporary vocalists.  All have recorded on the MaxJazz label. *****

I first became aware of Rene Marie when she performed on the Jazz at Lincoln Center Christmas CD/DVD. (Big Band Holidays)   She did "is dat you Santa Claus"  Loved it.

The others I will certainly check out.   I have a lot of Shirley Horn.  I need to revisit her.   Sometimes you have gems on the shelf and don't even realize it.

Thanks for the post

Cheers

***** Do you think your questions will get answered?*****

They say doing the same thing, over and over, and expecting a different result each time is a good definition of insanity.

I ain't crazy.  So no, there will be no answer, there never has been one, and for a good reason.

That reason is,  the real 'problem' here is that some people just resent not being  treated as Oracles.  Oracles were beings in human form, thru whom the gods spoke.   No discussion,  No disagreement,  and no opposing opinions allowed.   You just listen.

This is in spite of the fact that we always deferred to their musical expertise on matters of an academic or factual nature.   But even so, on occasion, we still had the temerity to think for ourselves.  To express our opinions.   We just weren't submissive enough.   It's as Simple as that.

That is what we don't / didn't  'get'.

Cheers

Julius Watkins:

Learsfool, I like his albums, but I am not sure how much playing French Horn adds to the effort.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V208GIEE85Q

Seems like you would get a similar sound / effect from trombone, and it's a lot more nimble.

Cheers

The more I hear her, the more I like her.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcNE85-aD6s&index=14&list=RDMMtBt9DQJOO-4

Does the Violin and guitar play a very prominent role in French Jazz, or is it just my imagination.
The legacy / influence of Grappelli / Django?

Cheers

The best of Mary Lou Williams that I own.

Solo Recital at Montreux 1978 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o4shDwmFI4

Live At The Cookery
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C61m3BNnhP0

All good.  No Filler.

Cheers

BTW. for anyone in need of computer speakers to listen to all these clips; I just received the Logitech Z623 set.  Even better than my old Logitech Z2300.   Recommended.

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It ain't necessarily So:

Williams by a TKO.   The big band sort of took away from the performance by Miles.

Cheers

BTW, stay with Rene Marie  at least to around 2:47.   You will be surprised.

Cheers

Courtesy of Newbee:

Seems as if Newbee knows his Divas.

LaVerne
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AohP-y6zCPs  

Rene
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10WyOp7r8W4  

Mary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5Mj4fCFp3o  

Thanks for the tips.

Cheers

*****  actually, the horn is quite a bit more "nimble" than the trombone. *****

I stand corrected.   Why do I have this strange feeling someone is smiling in NYC.

Learsfool, Thanks for info.

Cheers

*****  here she is with Wendy Gordon having fun.*****

My immediate impression also.   Fun, that's what Jazz is suppose to be like, and was, before everyone got 'angry' and / or 'intellectual'.

Very nice clip.

Cheers

O-10's invisible and nonexistent friend:

Have you guys seen the Jimmy Stewart movie 'Harvey'.

Cheers

Sartre:

Had to read this guy in college.   Back then I thought he was full of crap.  But now, I know he is full of crap and himself.  Europeans should not try to write about things they don't understand. (Jazz)

Cheers

***** Rok you were "property" of the US government, you could have gotten court-martial for getting frost bite in Alaska. You were not paid to think; but that's the way all military's have functioned since time began.*****

Wrong, wrong and wrong. 

I was not 'property'
MY career would have been if jeopardy if one of my soldiers had suffered from frost bite.
I was paid to think.

BTW, if you were a real estate agent, you guys were the problem.  Not the Fed.

Cheers

***** I know this is completely off subject, but I do that occasionally.****

Not only off subject, but dead wrong.  The interest rate on "
fixed rated" mortgages never changes.   Your monthly mortgage payment will remain constant for the life of the loan.  Some people pay their property tax monthly with their mortgage as one payment.  An increase in property tax can result in an increase in your monthly payment, but that's due to tax increases not interest rates.

If you have a 'variable rate' or a mortgage with a Balloon a payment, it can increase.  But all of this is explained when you sign the loan.  Don't blame the Fed.  There should not be any surprises here.

Basic problem:  There are two types of people in the world.

(1)  People who think if it's possible for something to go wrong or bad, it will.
(2)  People that always think everything be all right.  The best possible outcome will always be THE outcome.  They go through life just a wishing and a hoping.  They also think that everyone in the world should look out for them, and their best interest.

I am of the first type.  Folks who took out mortgages on houses they could not afford are of the second type.

As the folks in the military always say, don't make plans based on what the enemy might do, plan according to what he has the capability to do.

Cheers