O-10:
Drugs, and drug addiction, only become a problem for society if the people taking drugs and those hooked on drugs, CANNOT afford to buy them.
The implication being, they must commit crimes in order to support their habits. Then it's a problem.
What rich, or, well to do people do in the privacy of their homes, does not attract the attention of law enforcement. What street thugs do on the streets trying to get the money to buy drugs, or 'protect' their 'turf' to sell drugs, does attract the police. As it should.
I don't think any well known musicians were out robbing and killing to support their habit. The only people they hurt were themselves and their fans.
Apple and oranges.
Cheers |
Lord, Lord, my burden is great.
Where in my post did I say 'well to do' or 'rich' meant white? And it may be / is, unlawful regardless of who is doing it. We were talking of punitive measures for using drugs. And if the cops don't see it, they don't know it. Rich and well to do means privacy if nothing else.
And The Godfather. When was the last time you saw a mafioso on a corner pushing drugs?
I will bet all I have, that there were NO drugs being sold in the Godfather's neighborhood.
You do the math.
Cheers
And BTW, you go to Jail for intent to sell or distribute. Not use.
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*****Rok, what did Billie Holiday go to jail for? What did Art Pepper go to jail for?******
The laws / attitudes have changed. Back in the day, a guy was sentenced to 1500 years in prison for possession of one joint of weed. Happened in Dallas county, Texas.
The thinking then was that draconian sentences would stop the spread of drug use. They were wrong.
You have no valid argument.
Cheers |
*****
as is Billie Holliday's "Fine and Mellow*****
This video of her always makes me very sad. It's great, even if her voice is almost gone. Painful to listen / see. But she owns that song.
Speaking of drugs.
Cheers |
Grossman: 'Tunisia"
At :09 and 2:06 Was there anything amiss there?
Cheers |
moto_man:
I have the CD, and you are correct, the sound quality is much better than the youtube clip. Listening to it now.
This was recorded in 1957, during the golden age of Jazz. This made me wonder about the performers that appear on this broadcast.
Then I read the notes, and it seems that the artists were invited / selected by Nat Hentoff and Whitney Balliett.
Not familiar with Balliett, but Hentoff, is a well known 'know it all' and all around jerk.
I am reminded of the line by 'Fats' Waller, speaking of the NY elite, "they like Jazz, but in small doses".
But, it's historic, and after all, it does include some greats, it just could have included so many, more important figures.
Cheers
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******
Reading his bio I see a pretty accomplished individual who has done much for the health of jazz. ******
His Bio makes my point. NO ONE is that accomplished. He is a Country Music critic!! Really?? That's when he is not solving the problems of the Middle east, and being a critic of U.S. Presidents and their Foreign policy. This guy is surely the World's Foremost Authority.
Jack of all trades, Master of none. Another Tony Cordesman.
*****
I look forward to your substitutions.*****
First I realize they mnight not have been able to get just everyone. I should have said that. I started to, but I felt it was obvious. However,
There are 9 tracks on the CD. One is Holiday doing 'mellow' and two by the Basie All-Stars. That leaves 6 tracks to be filled. That assumes they could not accommodate more time wise.
So, if the intent is to showcase Jazz to the public, you start with Armstrong and maybe end with Mingus. With Ellington, Cannonball, Morgan, Peterson, Miles, Ella or any number of folks in between. You arrange the order.
Henry 'Red' Allen is a fine p[layer, but if you were given the task of selecting the performers, I don't think he would be on your list. I could be wrong.
*****
In keeping with my New Years resolution to be more direct, *****
What, no more Mister Nice Guy???
Cheers
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NYC:
I am going to state the obvious and say, Everything we Read, See or Hear concerning the arts, is decided by someone for us.
Too many of those decision makers are from a very small; group of people in NYC.
If taxpayer money is involved in the arts, and I am sure it is, Then it seems to me that the entire country should be involved and benefit from their investment.
My previous example was that, the NYPO has played in North Korea, but I bet they have not played in Nebraska. You would hard pressed to find a German City of any size in which The Berliners have not played.
Wynton does take JLCO on the road a lot. He stays true to the music and is the most effective promoter of Jazz. He did not change his concept of the music because he is in NYC. His body is in NYC, but his heart is still in Nawlins. Thank You Jesus.
Cheers
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moto_man:
I stand corrected, somewhat. Great players abound, but it would have been better if they had been leaders of groups. Monk was wasted backing a singer.
My CD does not include some of the tracks you listed.
Thanks for the info.
Cheers |
*****
Much of the disagreement on this thread is due to a both narrow minded and arrogant mind-set*****
You are beginning to sound like that creature from Minnesota. |
The Frogman has gone psychoanalyst on us.
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moto_man
*****
any academic trying to impose intellectual analysis on a visceral experience like jazz *****
I meant to comment of this earlier. This is an outstanding point. Explains so much. It is the answer to much of the disagreement on this thread.
Thanks
Cheers. |
*****
I think you're referring to someone trying to equate "soul" in mathematical terms.******
It's more like a certain segment trying to make / remake jazz in their own image. Most of these people study 'Jazz theory' in school, and what they are taught becomes the definition of Jazz.
In school they learn how to improvise the 'correct' way. Sort of like learning the rules on how to be creative. Read a book and learn how to be a musical genius.
Wanna play like Coltrane or Miles? Sign up for our 6-week course.
Wynton nailed it. They are now in a position to call anything and everything Jazz. They now control all media associated with music, and they are the sole critics.
Cheers |
*****
No it isn't.*****
Yes it is |
*****
that assumes that the ability to analyze intellectually and the visceral experience are mutually exclusive. *****
Once again, we are into straw men. They are not mutually exclusive, but they are certainly not the same thing. In listening to, and enjoying a Jazz performance, the visceral trumps any 'intellectual' considerations.
In fact, I don't understand why 'intellectual' has any place in the playing or appreciation of Jazz. Or any other genre for that matter.
That intellectual stuff is for the noise-makers in the school house.
Cheers |
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*****
Which do you like best?******
I loved them both. I think we just had a similar conversation, which you declared this sort of thing apples and oranges. You were right.
One the one hand, we have the composer playing his tune on solo piano.
Then we have, the same tune being played by a Jazz group consisting of Cannonball Adderly, Paul Chambers, James Cobb, John Coltrane, Bill Evans, Wynton Kelly and of course Miles Davis.
This tune as played by solo piano falls into the category of something like 'autumn Leaves'. A beautiful tune that has been played by everyone.
Miles played a Jazz interpretation of OGDS. His performance was Jazz, the other was not. Miles' performance was to the solo composer's performance, as Cannonball's version of 'Autumn Leaves' is to the version by Ferrante & Teicher.
But both were beautiful.
Cheers
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*****
What are some of you're favorite tunes that you have multiple version? ****** In response to your question: Ran across this interesting chart. The tunes that have been recorded by Jazz musicians the most. The left side lists Jazz tunes written by Jazz composers or written as Jazz tunes. The right side lists tunes written as non-Jazz tunes, but recorded by Jazz musicians / groups. http://www.umsl.edu/~owsleydc/tune_rank.htmMingus is no where to be seen. :) I will attempt to answer your question in a little while. Cheers |
They all attended Julliard.
AAUGH!!!
et tu Wynton??
Cheers |
Delilah:
And it's Abdul-Malik by a nose, over Brown / Roach.
Cheers
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Read a review of 'The Sound of Jazz' on Blu-Ray in the latest issue of BBC Music Magazine. Rushed to Amazon. They have it, but only for Region 2. This is AMERICAN Music isn't it? WTF!!
O-10:
I cannot think of any Jazz tune of which I have multiple versions. I know I must have some, I just can't think of them. Other than war horses like 'autumn leaves' and 'Sweet Georgia Brown'. etc.....
Cheers |
*****
What's your favorite version of "Around Midnight"?***** This is the second most recorded tune in Jazz, according to the chart I posted. So it's almost impossible to know them all. It's hard to go against Monk under any situation, but if he is also the Composer, it should be a slam dunk. But, not so fast my friend. There is this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIgLt7LAZF0With that lineup, and that album art, sorry Monk. Cheers |
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It sounds as if The Frogman was running barefooted and stepped on a nail. Should we dispatch the Jazz medics?
Cheers |
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I never understood why you guys think Jazz has to keep getting newer. Hell I think LvB's 9th is around 200 years old. Bach older than that. Great music is timeless. But if you insist, check out the you-tubes of this young lady. The latest rage from the United Kingdom. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5qCRWR4kTwI like her. I like her appraoch. Always have a soft spot for female Trumpet players. Cheers |
Laura Jurd:
Better enjoy her before she ends up at Julie-art, and they teach her how to play the 'correct' way.
Cheers |
And make sure you package my 'Oh Yeah' very carefully. |
*****
Uh...., still waiting for the acronym translation 😄******
The censors erased it. Because of the F word I guess.
I got it all correct. And you got Jurd wrong.
Laura Jurd was named one the 'New Generation Artists' 2015-2017 by the BBC. Previous recipients of this honor have been:
Trumpeter ... Alison Balsom
Pianist ...... Benjamin Grosvenor
The Belcea Quartet
Being a Classical player, I will assume you have heard of these people.
Maybe the correct acronym should be
TFDNKWTFHITA.
I want my Mingus!!
Cheers |
*****
You sure you don't want saxophone lessons? 😉*****
To be in NYC under the tutelage of The Frogman??
AAUGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BTW, Jurd is just starting. They looked like a teenager garage band. But they played a Jazz tune, didn't just make weird noises like most young 'jazz' players do. She should be encouraged. Comparing her to an old Geezer like Brecker is not fair.
Cheers |
@moto_man , Thanks for your offer, but when it comes to computers and downloads etc..., I am as lost there, as The Frogman is when it comes to spotting new talent.
@calvinj , +1 on Salvant. I have the Woman child CD. She also appears on the latest Christmas recording from Wynton Marsalis and the JALCO (big band holidays). If we could only do something about those glasses.
@orpheus10 , Ray and Milt. Could be your best ever recommendation. I bought it, and listen to it often. Great CD.
@The Frogman, Sticks and Stones may break my bones, but snide remarks from The Frogman will never hurt me.
Cheers |
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@alexatpos , Comments? You said it as well as it can be said.
*******'they were too involved in musical device gleaned from their classical teachers, device that they tried to adapt to the jazz idiom in an attempt to somehow extend its parameter in a wholly mechanical, methodological fashion.*******
That is the HOW, now, the question is, WHY? Why the obsession with making Jazz something, other than what it was?
The WHY will be the most interesting part of all.
Great post as usual from a very insightful observer of Jazz and it's history.
Thanks
Cheers |
@moto_man , 'The Sound of Jazz' has been in my player since you posted it. This is great stuff. I did not give it it's just due in my first response. Part of the reason was the sound quality of the you-tube. The CD is light years better.
'The Train and The River' by The Jimmy Giuffre Trio, for some reason reminds me of Stravinsky's 'The Soldier's Tale'.
I guess with that lineup, how could the results be anything other than exceptional.
Cheers
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*****
You think Jazz is a was, when Jazz is an is! ******
Just barely, once you take away the recordings of the players that are dead.
If you are a Jazz lover, just like the Classical lover, be prepared to listen to music by players / composers long dead.
Cheers
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*****
Personally, I find it ironic, and more than a little pathetic, just how much resistance there is to the idea that at ANY point in time there is, in fact, good music being made; that what determines whether it is good or bad is how well the music reflects the time of its creation along with the skill level of the performer.******
The best to find out how much good music you think is being played today, is to take a look at the stuff on your shelf. The stuff you paid good money for. If you have no Armstrong, a few by Miles, maybe one Coltrane, but tons of stuff from current day players, then you are true to your 'beliefs', and I can only respect that.
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When a person writes a long, seemingly well thought out post, that you disagree with totally, the most likely reason is:
(1) He is right and you are wrong
(2) His premise is wrong.
The Frogman's premises are wrong.
The incorrect premise is to a logical argument, what cheap unreinforced concrete is to a building's foundation. It won't hold up.
First:
*****
There exist two different mindsets:*****
When it comes to music and all art, there are almost as many mindsets as their are people. You are trying to define / limit the parameters to fit your point of view. The foundation of your argument is in error.
...............More in a minute have to change to music before Shepp drives me nuts!
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*****
And that's when I discovered what that noise in the background was; what's Frogman trying to do to us?*****
I think he got his hands on the CIA's playlist from Gitmo.
We could say that Roach's drumming was Jazz drumming in search of a Jazz tune.
Cheers
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GOOD GRIEF!! AAUGH!!!!!
I know The Lord would not put more on me, than he knows I can bear. (no pun) |
Lord my Burden is Great.
The question was, who was MLK referring to when he used the term 'modern Jazz'. He was referring to all the guys you just listed. So Miles attended Julie-art. So what. So the others went to a music school. So what.
When I say , the Julie-art people, you know who I mean. And it's not the people you just named. I mean the people who are destroying Jazz.
Nice try
Cheers |
O-10:
Thanks for your support. |
*****
Rok recently commented: "the visceral always trumps the intellectual". That is simply not true******
For the listener, it is absolutely true. In Jazz and esp in Classical. Listen to very early Blues, R&B and Rock & Roll. Music that changed the world. Where is the intellectual? At Julie-Art. :)
*****
For that there needs to be, at least, an openness of mind to the reality that in order to discern skill level one has to rely on a little more than simply visceral reaction *****
Who buys music based solely on 'skill level'? If that were true, the only Jazz Trumpet you would need would be Wynton.
And as much as I love the guy, I can't see that. Now we assume if the guy has a CD he can play his instrument{intellectual}, what we wanna know is, what is he saying when he plays(visceral)
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*****Rok asked the question: "I don’t understand why you guys think that jazz always has to change". Again, ironic. Ironic that someone who leans so much on the "history" of the music doesn’t see the obvious: Jazz has been evolving since its birth and it will continue to do so whether we like it or not******
The important words here are "Always Has To Change". Natural progression / evolution is one thing, that it MUST or HAS TO change is something else. That is not what has happened. What has happened is, the Music has been changed/distorted/redefined to the point that Anyone and Everyone can now play "Jazz". And although the Great unwashed decide, they can only choose from the people the critics and power brokers put forward.
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*****that we all like certain styles of jazz, that no one style is better than the other, and that the only consideration that is subject to intellectual analysis is the skill level of the performer; THAT is what determines what is good music or bad. ***
If this were true, we would all have thousands of CDs / LPs full of music we hated, or did not like, but bought because of the skill level of the performer. Just like right this minute, I am sure you can analyze Shepp and point out a hundred things he is doing correctly. To me it is just so much sound. Incoherent sound. Noise?
So YOU may think this is GOOD music. If you do, I can assure you , you are in a very tiny minority.
BTW, both are capable of playing good music, this just ain't it. Esp for Roach.
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*****
but, to be blunt, a listener that is not even aware (there’s that intellectual thing again) that the overwhelming majority of music that he refers to or posts as examples is simply twelve bar blues has no basis for making grandiose comments about the superiority of one era over another. ******
"SIMPLY Twelve Bar Blues!!! Surely you jest. What do you think Jazz is. Is there no place in your Jazz for 12 bar blues? Your school house training is showing. It's gotta be complex? Incomprehensible?
I have every right to make any comment, 'grandiose' or otherwise about what I like. BTW, I only post what I own, or put another way, I only post what I spend my real money for.
No Blues, No Jazz
Know Blues, Know Jazz
*****
Personally, I think that this thread would be far more interesting and positive if there was more openmindedness and more willingness to explore ways to assess skill level. *****
You are going to be known as the Grinch that took all the fun out of Jazz. Skill level can only be discussed in a serious manner by some Jazz players or a Jazz instructor. That would be The Frogman.
We are not at Julie-Art, we are in the club / barber shop. :)
I'm wore out. Later
Cheers |
MLK's comments were made to say that Jazz serves the same purpose for urban black folks as the Blues did for Blacks in the rural South.
What did he mean by 'modern Jazz'? MLK died in 1968. Just to name a few of the many guys playing then, would include:
Miles,Monk,Coltrane,Rollins,Mingus,Hubbard,Morgan,Cannonball, Basie, Ellington and too many more to mention.
Now the question is, was he speaking of folks like these, or the grads of Julie-art. Think people, Think.
@jafant , Me too.
Cheers |
The last time I was in NYC, my whole life flashed before my eyes. However, if I ever make it to the Big Apple again, I will look you up for sure.
Thanks for the offer.
Cheers |
@orpheus10
"attack of the Negatrons" -- BRILLIANT!!! I wish I had said that!
The root of the problem?
The phrase "Irreconcilable Differences" comes to mind. I had already decided to throw in the towel. I too, am tired of the negative. This thread is getting to be a little too 'audiophile' in character for me.
I was sitting here, trying to 'see the light', as I listened to some of their clips on the computer speakers, then I noticed one of the CD players in my rig was playing, so I turned the volume up, and there was Billie singing "Fine and Mellow" (Sound of Jazz). I just laughed out loud, for real. I asked myself, can this 'new' music even be of the same genre? No way!!
WTF was I thinking? To each his own. Am I living in the past? Of course I am. All Southerners are. Down here, past is not only prologue, it's present.
Cheers
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Sorry for the delay. I was stunned into immobility.
New Jazz vs Classic Jazz:
When Thomas Edison invented his cylinder player, he didn't realize it, but one of the consequences was that, Musical Artist would forever have to compete with, and be compared to, all players that have lived and been recorded. They all became immortal.
Now, you do the math, fill in the blanks, think about it, apply your logic, and this is what this 'discussion' is all about.
You can't cut the line of merit, just because you are recording now, and it's New. So think of any player, on any instrument, and then place these New guys in their proper / deserved place.
For instance: And this is just for the sake of discussion:
If on Trumpet, Pops is 1, and Miles is 2, and Hubbard is 3, and Morgan is 4, Buddy Bolden is 5, and so on, .....you know the candidates.... Now, where would you place Randy Brecker? Who would he be in front of? What about Tom (perfect bebop solo) Harrell?
If you would answer this, then we have a place to start a discussion.
Cheers
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