Jazz for aficionados

It IS easy and it’s been done here time and time again. You just can’t grasp the concept of hear the proof. Reasons why? I’ve got a pretty good idea by now; some are obvious, some not so much, but best not to go there. ONE article, ONE intelligent comment supporting your point of view ANYWHERE in print or sound record. JUST ONE.....ANYWHERE. That vs. all the hundreds of writings and statements by musicians and musicologists, all the books and text books on the subject....just ONE, Rok. Surely you can find one. Who knew you were such a groundbreaking and myth-shattering genius on the topic?  Just who is being arrogant here?  Just ONE, Rok. Lay it on us, please.

About that challenge?  I suppose it's safer to grab at straws.  

I have posted several clips of commentary and articles and how it all relates to everything (well, almost everything; not Bolero ☺️) that has been posted here many times.  Actually, your man Wynton did a pretty good job of explaining it all and it applies to most of what has been posted here.  So, take your pick of the examples.  Why don't you start with Wynton? What is really fascinating here is how you personalize all this.  It's not just me that is saying this.  It's everyone else too; except you.  I believe the onus is on you; if you want to go down that road.  Either way, fine with me.

Thanks, Ghosthouse.  Right back at you:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zPQdXN7wZcM

Hey, could this be traced back to Africa? 😉:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Acc_QHJ9Rvw

Rok, what did you think of the Billy Taylor, Duke (2:40) and Wynton comments?  In case you missed them the first time:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2qteYQy_8qk

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmvaZqr6RFY

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=p5nU82xdMjA

Btw, I hope they don't forget to put some hot sauce in the pot 😛

More interesting reading for the inquisitive:

http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/g/gioia-jazz.html

More for the inquisitive.  Fascinating:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LBYpYCPUX-M

You guys can go ahead and keep living in your fantasy worlds as concerns the history of this music; too bad. Now, to some of the more personal stuff; and, I bring this up only to point out how convoluted and disingenuous your chains of thought and reasoning tend to be. In order to illustrate what I am talking about lets look at some facts; all verifiable. Shall we?

For four years, and multiple times, Rok, you have quoted and/or linked to Wiki. You, O-10, not only did the same (and still do), but did so in a manner that often made it seem like you were the author of the comments. What your real intentions were don’t really concern me. I pointed out that when quoting Wiki it was appropriate to disclose this. After considerable indignation and sarcasm you stated that going forward you would disclose the source of your comments if they weren’t your own thoughts. Over the course of the same four years, NOT ONCE, did I quote or link to Wiki. Now, fast forward to the present:

I made TWO recent references to Wiki for the first time ever, and AS I POINTED OUT in one post, these were two (!) Wiki articles that I felt had merit. What happens? You guys, since you have little of substance to say on the core topic, attack me for the use of Wiki. Now, THAT makes a lot of sense, no? Given the aforementioned and the sheer amount of informed opinion that disputes your positions there can only be two possible reasons as to why you behave this way as far as I am concerned: it’s all a big put-on on your parts, or there is some kind of deficiency in the ability to reason and process information. Still waiting for thoughts on the clips of comments that I posted and most recent article (not Wiki, btw 😅)

Ghosthouse, very nice clip!  Great electric bass player with a sound clearly traceable back to the Jaco revolution.  A little research showed that my initial hunch was correct about the guitar player on that cut.  Frank Gambale is probably my favorite fusion guitarist and I first got to know his playing from Chick Corea's "Elektric Band" projects.  Killer electric guitar sound!  Love his singing tone and formidable technique which he never uses for pointless "thrashing".  Thanks for the clip.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLuQwmUf5lFVBSJJyqG4-CRBXHZ8fz7xmP&v=XCFQEBLFI4w

I posted some (not the overproduced stuff) Trombone Shorty about two years ago.  This narrow-minded "Aficionado" will gladly offer some thoughts if the "O-10 Exclusivity Restriction" is lifted 😉

More interesting and thought provoking reading for the inquisitive:

http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/10/31/how-ken-burns-murdered-jazz/

Thanks for the proof, Acman3 😉. Great tune!

Btw, thanks for those Carlos Oliva clips. You have no idea what a warm blast from the past those were. I worked with Carlos Oliva during my Miami college days when he produced/directed a couple of the early Miami Sound Machine records before the band became "Gloria Estefan and The Miami SM". The band used to record in a little Miami recording studio named "Miami Sound"; hence the name.

BTW, as an "antidote" to lack of friendliness and basic civility, I am hereby lifting the "Exclusivity Restricition" to anyone who wants to comment on any of my posts; regardless of the addressee 😔

**** not just Black, but the most unique race of people to ever exist on planet earth ****

Now, if that isn't racist I don't know what is.  The crazy thing is, O-10, you then go on to support everything that you argued against for the last several days:

**** because they have drawn from the most infinite gene pool to ever exist: all the tribes of Black Africa, plus all the European genes as well; ****

A pretty good ethnological/musicological description of the roots of Jazz, I would say.  I thought your argument was that there was no African influence; never mind all the other ethnic influences?  Moreover, for whatever it's worth, Rok argued AGAINST the genetics factor and described it as an indication of racism.

I will concede that describing ideas in writing is not easy; however, the best we can do is take written words at face value.  However, as is often the case, there is a stunning, let's say, "fly with the wind" quality about much of what gets written here with dramatic contradictions for the sake of supporting and buttressing a point of view, however ill-conceived, that one is entrenched in.

**** Presently, that same resourcefulness, will be the only thing to get the working class out of poverty that has been created in the last 30 years.****

Agreed!  The solutions ultimately have to come from within.  Can't keep blaming wh*+tey forever.

pryso, Mahler is certainly not to everyone’s tastes; not all his works are favorites of mine either. However, Das Lied is without a doubt one of the greatest orchestral works. I don’t know who the performers you heard were, but since you seem to be Mahler curious you owe it to yourself to hear a great rendition at least once. If you get a chance check these out:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLsaBW0gXwADeVz15u904MIx91hgFcLe-c

https://youtu.be/idRevTkIPts

As usual, in the absence of a sound argument, ridicule becomes the fallback position.  The shame in all of this absurdity is that, because of an inability to accept and deal with one's limitations, the real greatness, complexity and depth of this art form and it's history is missed.  How ironic is that?

There are two kinds of people, and as concerns this thread, listeners:  one type of listener loves the music and embraces the fact that how much there is to learn about this music is practically endless; and, understands that only with this attitude can the deepest appreciation of this music be possible.  Humility in deference to the music.  The other type of listener loves the music, but loves the fact that he loves the music even more.  He identifies with it in a way that lets personal issues color (sorry) the reality of everything from the actual qualiy of the music to the obvious significance of the fact that every serious commentator and practitioner of that very music holds a viewpoint different from his own.  Duke, Armstrong, Coltrane, Bird, Wynton and everyone else are wrong and he's right because he knows better;  HE "knows the truth".  

O-10, if history is any indication I have much reason to be suspicious of your desire for a "truce".  Ultimately, not much to lose except a few minutes of typing and, as always and contrary to assertions elsewhere, I hope I am wrong.  

"The Final Comedown":  What do I think?  Pleasant enough.  VERY 70's.  Had I not known it was music written for a movie I would have guessed as much.  Nothing to criticize and nothing to particularly dislike.  Both pieces do a good job of eliciting a "mood" as movie music should and I liked "Luanna's Theme" best.  Well performed studio recording with a little too much reverb all the way around as was typical of the 70's movie score sound.  I found it listenable and pleasant, but not exactly music that I would call beautiful nor buy; but that's just me and I'm glad you found more to like than I.  

Far more interesting than the music (for me) is the story behind that recording,  First of all, it's a bit of a mystery why this is credited as a Grant Green project,  None of the music was composed nor produced by Green and he appears only in a supporting role as a player; and minimally at that on most cuts.  While we are not concerning ourselves with music genre, the film itself is an example of a very controversial film genre and I suppose that these clips are fitting given recent conversations here.  The film is part of the genre known as "blaxploitation" or "blacksplotation" that arose during the 70's and was widely criticized by organizations like the NAACP for perpetuating negative stereotypes of Blacks.  

Ok, so this may come across as suspect; but, here goes.  In my comments about O-10's David Weiss clip I was going to make the point that the composition sounded like something Wayne Shorter would write.  Finally having a moment to write I noticed Acman3 had posted a clip by Weiss: "Endangered Species/The Music Of Wayne Shorter".  Ha!  He is clearly a Wayne Shorter fan; and it reads in his compositions.  

I like David Weiss a lot.  Frankly I had only heard the recording he did of the music of Herbie Hancock and liked that a lot.  As a trumpet player he is excellent.  His post-hard bop style is clearly coming out of the Miles school and I find his ideas inventive and logical.  As Acman3 says, it may be necessary to put on one's thinking cap as this is not music with the usual familiar harmonies and comfortable cadences of most modern bop; but, very interesting.  The band is excellent and besides Weiss , I particularly liked the guitar playing and drumming.  The only thing that leaves me perplexed is the ending of the tune which sounds as if the pause button was hit a couple of seconds too soon.  I found one other clip on line and it ends the same way, so it must be as intended.  Curious, and a little jarring; but, that is what music is intended to be sometimes.  Good stuff.

Thanks for that clip O-10.  I must say that while I may be reading too much into this I find your putting the word "jazz" in quotes to suggest that you may not think that this is jazz.  I would also add that this is clearly current and "latest" jazz, but just one example of many new voices in current jazz.  

I never did like the term "jazz-jazz" and often thought to write about my objection to it, but didn’t so as not to "stir the pot" of contention. The term suggests that music from said time period is the only true jazz; obviously not so.

**** in hindsight it was a mistake, because jazz evolves like everything else.****

Couldn’t agree more. But give yourself more credit re evolving; with respect, I don’t think you would have made that comment three years ago.

https://youtu.be/UnPMoAb4y8U

....and probably best to be leave others out of your diatribes. Tense time, so I’ll overlook this one 😊

Btw, you really think Corea will be forgotten before McBride (great as he is)...if ever? Not a chance.

Have always loved Patti LaBelle. Great singer and voice! That song always takes me back to High School and my summer job at a local grocery store and how the woman in the deli section would always sing that song when I was around. I was pretty sure (or hoping) that she was sending a message 😉. I was mortified.

Trombone Shorty is a very talented musician who has carved an interesting niche for himself. As O-10 points out, he has a lot of energy and he combines a New Orleans vibe with a modern R&B sensibility. He sings, plays trombone AND trumpet; and, reportedly drums as well. I particularly like his trombone playing and love what I have heard of him as a guest on records like the Tribute To Fats Domino. But,........a lot of his stuff like "Here Come The Girls" doesn’t do a lot for me. This stuff is certainly fun, but no aspect of it nor the whole package hold up for me compared to other music that I would put in the same general category. Starting with the title of the song (and lyrics) there is a quality that puts it too far over the line into "pop" territory for me and the production and execution of it is good but not great. Btw, Trombone Shorty has done very well commercially and is a multimillionaire. When I want music that pushes similar buttons FOR ME (urban funky horn-laden r&b songs) I would much rather listen to something like this (two of my favorite records):

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oAatPPEaZDA

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UrxRJ9HlfZk

Check out the drummer on this; ALL he plays is the snare, amazing! Trombone Shorty sounds awesome.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5IAhAXRXyas

"Lurking"?

Nice to hear from you, Learsfool; and thanks for the kind words.  Hope all is well with you.

Probably the most famous trombone feature ever.  Smooth!:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cKQc-cbAvdQ

Amazing!:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8nd-Hb63O1U

The more the merrier:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Uq-OJT9GtO0

My favorite:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RFMfcE5NAL0

Different:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vZhD30lMieY

By far? Tough customer! 😉 Hard to compare Dorsey to Hampton or JJ; different eras and totally different styles. Slide was also a great aranger as that arrangement for trombones shows. I don’t think anyone can touch Watrous for sheer vistuosity or JJ for swing feel.  Great to have so many different flavors.

Great clips!  Gorgeous Brookmeyer/Scofield.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Xo30HzzUt3k

Beautiful clips, O-10;  thanks.   That Art Blakey clip is particularly beautiful.  Lee Morgan sounds amazing and even though he doesn't solo, Benny Golson's accompanying lines are a model of tastefulness.  Has anyone seen the new documentary movie about Lee Morgan yet?  Supposed to be great and at the top of my list:

http://m.imdb.com/title/tt4170344/plotsummary?ref_=m_tt_ov_pl

Schubert, A couple that come immediately to mind:

The must have box set: Art Tatum "The Complete Pablo Solo Masterpieces"

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8Fj7Ny6lx5w

One of my favorite piano players and one who doesn’t get enough attention: Hank Jones "Solo Piano"

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RK9QEL07sck

I find Keith Jarrett to be a bit of an acquired taste and depending on my mood I sometimes can’t stand his playing and other times I think it is the greatest thing on earth: Keith Jarrett "The Melody At Night With You".

https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLRtmaGr16fz0YRAFCzOww_42cM-IiysdX&v=a9RnH9YQ5-w

Thought or another one, Schubert.  Can't think of a more "sparse" piano player than Monk.  Unique player with a quirky time feel and overall approach which may or may not appeal to you,  Genius, imo.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6H6DjPBFOo

Interesting and beautiful; very poetic.  Thanks. That trio was the rhythm section for the great Thad Jones/Mel Lewis Orchestra.  The Village Vanguard in NYC was (and still is) their home base.  That would have to have been sometime around 1975.  Very swinging rhythm section.  Check out Pepper Adams on this.  Smoking!:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1e-q25bk3UI

Thank you for that link Learsfool;  some wonderful kernels of wisdom in there.  I particularly liked the advice about practicing with emotion even when its practicing rudiments.  And, of course, this:

"It takes practice to learn a language, cook good meals or get along well with people."

Brilliant musician.

https://youtu.be/X2zpbq8mr7w

Listened to this today.   Wonderful and very elegant playing.   With the exception of "Lover Man", not an album of standards,  but of blues originals.  His playing may be more to your liking, Schubert.

https://youtu.be/TuVqhA9fpOE

It was recently pointed out by Schubert what a great player George Mraz is. Amazing ability to ground the rhythm section and with unusually beautiful bass tone and intonation. Has always been a favorite. This is a favorite record that he plays on. Beautiful time feel through out and Pepper Adams is, as always, a master storyteller. Mraz sounds fabulous.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tOCZddFI1tU

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y8PjvxET91U

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LlDMfIjB8Ps

Nice clips!

**** Amazing how he makes the best better ! ****

Interesting comment. Some players have the ability to raise the overall level of the players around them. This is a quality that, when present, is usually most obvious coming from horn or piano players and usually less obvious when from a bass player. There is a saying among musicians that: "things happen from the bottom up"; iow, as that silly pop song says, and no matter what genre: "Its all about that bass". If the bass is out of tune, it’s ALL going to be out of tune. If the bass’ time feel is not happening, it’s ALL going to sound like a mess. So strong is Mraz’ musical contribution and musical "grip" that everyone’s level is lifted. Another favorite with Mraz:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XfU3cLoldng

(Getz, Kenny Barron, Mraz, Victor Lewis)

Mraz lets the note "ring" longer than most bass players which is a big part of what gives him that beautiful singing tone.  As a result there is more connection of the notes in a bass line.  That could definitely result in what you describe.  Of course, we would then have to identify what "slips" you refer to.  What I am talking about is when a player's musical "purpose" is so strong, and this has nothing to do with he loudly he plays, that it forces the other players to rise to the occasion; sometimes to levels not possible with lesser players.

Very interesting article, Alex. Thanks for that and I am looking forward to seeing the film. Almost too difficult to absorb just how much "life" some of these great artists experienced; and, sometimes didn't. Along with the great art so much of it was disfuncional, dark and even unethical; and, sobering as it may be, perhaps that was part of what made the art so great. Ain’t life interesting?! I like the article author’s writing style and this is a great description of Morgan’s style that perfectly describes my take on Morgan’s playing; the "strut" and the "story"!:

**His sound was bright, brash, and sassy: like James Brown’s early work, it had the seductively strutting arrogance of youth. Morgan was a funky, down-home player, with a penchant for “smeared,” dirty notes, but he was also a subtle and calculating musical thinker who constructed his solos as if they were stories. **

No fireworks, just great storytelling:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xlAwFV0clcM

Speaking of perfection:

https://youtu.be/RRKP-qeJvVU

No reflection on how I feel about the content of your post, O-10;  but, that was perhaps your best post here.  It read like a good jazz solo; but, I digress.  I hope that you are, ultimately, not one who is capable of pulling the trigger.  The flaw in your argument for clemency for the Queen Bee is that those who are, in fact, capable of pulling the trigger are too self-absoberd to deserve clemency.  Their "love" is not what it should be...selfless.  Imo.

Not sure that his solo on this recording is what "gave (Coltrane) a hit record", but Lee Morgan sounds amazing on this; a real classic:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=S1GrP6thz-k

Great call!  Very, very interesting player.  I understand, given what you have described as what you're looking for in piano players, why you like him; economy with authority.  He uses very interesting harmonies and there is a lot of melodic counterpoint in his solos, so I would bet that you are also a fan of the music of Bach.  

I'm almost embarrassed to admit that I didn't know this record.  I've been listening to it for the last couple of days.  Fantastic record!  Love the way this guy phrases.  Not as economical as Tristano and more obviously rooted in the blues, but what a great time feel!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hgN6rl6Kkyk

Re Blakey: In spite of all his talents and very important place in the history of Jazz, Art Blakey had the reputation of being a hustler and a voracious junkie.  This is well documented and verified by the accounts of his sidemen; many of whom were users themselves.  Sometimes it's difficult to reconcile the positive images that we have of some of our Jazz heroes with the simple reality that some of them lived according to questionable ethical standards and did some questionable things.  While it's tempting to attribute it all to the grip of the drugs and influence of the nightlife, it should be noted that not all jazz players who were junkies behaved the same way and some even made a point of advising young players to stay away from drugs; as opposed to paying them with bags of the stuff.  

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8KL1pbN9Gj0

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ma-E5GudCzA

The infamous Charlie Parker "Dial" recordings! That recording is almost painful to listen to. Reminiscent of Billie Holiday’s later recording when she, like Bird, was being ravaged by drugs and alcohol. Bird is in bad shape and faltering ; but, the emotion in his playing (and Billie’s singing) is extraordinary. He never finished the session and it was finished without him as a quartet recording with Howard McGhee as the only horn. He then went back to his hotel, set his room on fire, was arrested and was admitted into a mental hospital. Now, THAT is a story; as sad as it is. Incredible player and, like O-10 points out, idolized like no other. That session produced the famous version of "Lover Man":

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oNJpes0XFGU

Glad, you're ok, O-10.

Speaking of Jazz harpsichord and one eyed raccoons....sounds like a nightmare.

https://youtu.be/-W59FzOwYIs

I think we need to be a little more precise in what we are trying to establish. We need a better historical context.

****Lee Morgan was to the trumpet, what Charley Parker was to the alto sax****

Are we talking about who is our favorite or who was the most important and influential? And how do we make a comparison like that when Morgan and Parker were active during two different periods in the history of the music?

If we are looking for which trumpet player, like Parker did with the alto saxophone, ushered trumpet playing into "modern jazz", then it’s hard to not give the credit to Dizzy Gillespie who was there alongside Parker shaping the new music.

Moving on to hard bop: while it is true that Lee Morgan’s output was greater than Clifford Brown’s who sadly died at the age of 25(!), Clifford was, without a doubt, the more important of the two; he was, in fact, Lee Morgan’s main influence. If we are talking about a trumpet player who, like Charlie Parker did for the alto, had the most influence, not only on trumpet players, but on all jazz players by changing the very face of the music regardless of time period, it’s hard to not give that credit to Miles. As great and individualistic as Lee Morgan was, he did not have the overall impact on jazz that Miles did. Difficult comparisons.

O-10, no one can disagree with personal taste.  I guess I don't really understand what you mean by "was to the trumpet what Charlie Parker was to the alto sax".  While size of output is important, I think that size of output is a "technical" matter as opposed to a "looser artistic" matter.  I dont think that this is a matter of the "technical" vs "artistic".  Are you suggesting that Morgan was more artistic or more important to the music than Miles was?  I think few would agree with that assessment.  In fact, the "flip flopping" that you allude too is precisely one of the things that made Miles such a great artist.  Actually, he didn't "flip flop", he pretty much moved in a straight line of new musical styles.  Moreover, while I can't disagree with your comment about Miles' ego, I don't believe that ego was why he didn't talk about Morgan but did talk about other players; I suspect that he simply didn't consider Morgan a pivotal player.  Both Brown and Morgan were great artists without a doubt.  My point through all this is simply that one can't take the historical context out of the equation and if that is a "technical" matter, then "looser artistic sense" has to be considered personal taste and not much more.  Nothing wrong with personal taste.  

O-10, you make my point perfectly.  As you say, this is not about objectivity and yours is a subjective assessment; iow, personal taste.   I love Lee Morgan's playing; that is not at issue.  But, you seem to be suggesting that somehow he was greater or more important/influential musician than Miles was.  I disagree;  "the street" did not get stuck on hard bop.  Ask yourself this question:  how would jazz be different today had there been no Lee Morgan?  Probably not much.  How would it be different today had there been no Miles?  Hugely so, imo; just as it would have been hugely different had there been no Bird.  

Been without Internet for a week.  I survived just fine and it's always reassuring that it IS possible, still, to be without it.  

Good comments re Miles and I relate most closely to strateahed's point of view about him.  Miles Davis exemplified what is arguably  the most important aspect of the spirit of jazz; it's always evolving.  His conviction to that idea was, by itself, an important influence on other musicians and on modern jazz.  As far as the more directly musical influences are concerned there are probably very few young(er) trumpet players playing today that one can't point to while listening and say "aha!, that was a Miles'ism".  I don't typically hear nearly as much "Lee Morgan" in younger players.  While there have been many extremely individualistic players in jazz, I don't think there have been any who don't show the influence of players who came before at least to some degree.  

I love Morgan's very fiery playing and particularly that unique swagger that he had in his time feel.  However, he was squarely in and pretty much stayed in a hard-bop bag.  For Miles hard-bop was one rest-stop on his way to his next stylistic move.  My favorite Miles is with the classic "60's Quintet" and I find that music more interesting and more harmonically advanced than most of what I have heard from Morgan.  As an instrumentalist he was kind of unassuming.  His tone could be "casual" sometimes and without that always full and confident tone of Morgan's; but, that was an artistic choice imo and he could play with fantastic control and delicacy when he wanted to.  He didn't play with the obvious fiery quality of Morgan; but, was more subtle and much less predictable.  When Morgan phrases it's much easier to anticipate, at least to a degree, how he will end a phrase; when I listen to Miles the sense is that he is always surprising the listener.  Of course, his prowess as a band leader who encouraged inventiveness is well known. 

I understand why some listeners lost it when he went electric; although I don't agree that he lost all his previous listeners.  But, I think it's always important to remember that one's reaction to art from a great artist usually says something about ourselves as much as about the art; and, to "get it" one has to consider the complete evolution of the music and not just one or two evolutionary periods. Miles' electric music was exactly where he needed to go as an artist if one considers the sequence of stylistic moves that he made leading up to it.  Morgan's total output doesn't have that kind of breadth and, for me, even in a hard-bop bag his playing is certainly different but not "better" than Miles'.  Btw, a correction: Morgan was 33 when he died not 20.  Still and sadly very young, but not as young as Clifford Brown who died at age 25 and who is considered Morgan's main influence.  

Some listeners may prefer a more traditional and comfortable approach to playing a familiar melody; but, for me, what Miles does with this melody is incredibly beautiful and unusual and the ensemble playing is fantastic.  My favorite quintet:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NRHK9psKK7I

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x_whk6m67VE

I don't know where the idea that Miles never mentioned Lee Morgan came from (myth?), but here is at least one time when he did (not much, but he did 😎:

http://www.erenkrantz.com/Music/MilesDavisInterview.shtml

**** I guarantee he did not carry one original fan along on that trip.****

O-10, I "guarantee" you are wrong with that assertion.  He lost many without a doubt.  I don't know what constitutes an "original" fan.  Someone who was alive and listening all the way back when Miles was with Bird?  I'm not THAT old.  Someone who has listened to all of Miles' music including music from his period with Bird?  I'm one of those and, as I have said, that's far from my favorite Miles; but, I "get it" and I can tell you that there are many more who do and some of those were listening to Miles as he was coming up (older than me).  As always, nothing wrong with not liking something; but, that kind of absolutist comment seldom holds water.  

**** Miles was Miles ****

Thats the point.

Fabulous and classic Miles, O-10; those are two of my favorite jazz records.  

Strateahed, the Downbeat Blindfold Test has always been an interesting peek into the mindset of the musician being "tested".  No question, Miles sure was one supremely opinionated dude; and uncompromising.  It's also tempting to point out that, by today's political correctness standards, he was also more than a little bit racist.  However, tempering that and the key fact here is that this was 1967 and if one considers what was going on in this country as concerns race during that time it is not surprising and even understandable.  This leads back to the subject of Miles' genius.  

It has often been pointed out that great art always reflects the time of its creation.  Wether a listener likes what it is reflecting or not is besides the point and not what makes it good art or not;  how well it reflects the time is the standard.  It's hard to understand how a musician can produce the beautiful music in the clips that O-10 posted and then six years after that Downbeat Bildfold Test produce this record.  Panned by just about every critic at the time, "On The Corner" is now considered one of the most influential records of all time in all of music.  This was 1973 (!) and the problem was that it was so ahead of its time.  When listened to today, in the context of ALL the music around us, it sounds like it was recorded yesterday.  The mistake that "critics" made was thinking that it was a jazz record.  It was not; it was a record of "street" music recorded by a jazz musician trying to reflect what was going on during that time. The music, the sounds and the recording techniques were a precursor to the funk, hip-hop (I know, I know) and "world-music" that would follow over the next few decades.  It shouldn't be listened to as a jazz record.  Like it or not (I like it .....sometimes) it is without a doubt a great example of Miles' genius; or, at least, of his always-evolving attitude:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ps0ka1tY5yg

O-10, your lady friends should be commended for seeing Miles for the jerk that he was in his private life; he was verbally and physically abusive of the women in his life.  However, your friends would be the exception.  Miles had a reputation for being quite the ladies man and he had countless affairs even while married.  His aloof and smooth stage persona seems to have been a big attraction for the ladies and he was considered the epitome of "cool".  

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PzghKujSdhA

O-10,  I don't see what the problem is.  Perhaps you shouldn't look for one where there is none and not personalize things.  Perhaps you should try to be more clear with what you're trying to say?  Perhaps none of this matters so much that it warrants that kind of reaction since I am basically agreeing with your "clarification"?  Perhaps a chill pill?  That reminds me, hope Rok is doing ok 😎