Newbee, thanks for that; and Acman for the link. I had to chuckle when I read your post. I have an old Ford Explorer that we keep at our cabin in upstate NY. Last summer I loaded three brand new CDs into the cd changer as I headed out on an errand. That was the precise time that the cd changer decided to stop working, froze and would not eject. The last cd that I had loaded was the Buddy DeFranco/Dave McKenna. It was still stuck in the loading mechanism and after a lot of effort I was able to pry it out and scratched it so badly that it was unplayable. The others are still stuck in there. Long story short I had not replaced it nor listened to it until now. Great record! Buddy DeFranco sounds fantastic as usual as does McKenna; excellent and synergistic pairing and they seem to be really enjoying each other’s playing. It’s always amazing to hear a horn and piano duo generate so much rhythm and groove without bass and drums. Very tasty stuff. Thanks again. Great player considered to be the one that took DeFranco’s bebop inspired clarinet style to the next level. This from an early recording before he went into more of a fusion/pop style. Perhaps the next level as far as technical prowess and more modern vocabulary, but to me, there’s no one quite like DeFranco. Still, great player: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sfeoqVulAXghttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTTD5GCmj0Ihttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7SdCFoReTSY |
Unlikely. Great spirit, though. Check 1:07. "What?! Forgot the slide oil.....no problem, just spit on it. |
Please ignore my last post; something that I know is not entirely without precedent 😊. I must have clicked on one of the links in the sidebar and watched thinking that it was Rok’s clip; that is what my "slide grease" comment, in which the trombone player spits on his slide, was about. Now I can’t find the funny clip. Twilight Zone? Btw, glad to see intonation being paid attention to. Toussaint, New Orleans royalty indeed. |
Sorry to hear that, Keegiam. I too lost a dear friend recently; a very sad feeling indeed. Hang in there. Best to you and your friend’s family. Not usually my cup of tea, but my dear wife a country music fan recently introduced me to this interesting song writer: https://youtu.be/edH1zYNPPoU |
Eric Dolphy was a tremendous loss. Without a doubt one of the most unique voices in the history of jazz. This record is amazing. The rhythm section sounds incredible with that distinctive high energy and relentlessly forward moving feeling in much of Mingus’ music. You’re right, ATFW captured that era of playing perfectly. But what is really interesting to me is that, most of all, it captured the spirit of that style of playing while at the same time bringing it to a much more modern era with excursions into dissonance that are not part of the earlier era’s style. It does it seamlessly, and it strikes me that this is exactly like what makes Dolphy’s playing so unique; he is clearly coming out of a bebop tradition, keeps its spirit, but takes it to a different place with dissonance and inflections that are not part of the the traditional bebop vocabulary. Great stuff.
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Great high energy stuff. I am fortunate to have the two original lp’s that this "best of" compilation comes from; they were sent to me by a relative in Cuba. After years of practically prohibiting Jazz in state-sponsored musical groups, the Cuban govenrment decided to create an image, for propaganda reasons, that Cuba was a free and open society and created and funded what would become "Irakere". **** Chucho barely gets a mention. What’s up with that? **** This compilation was released in 1994. Both Paquito and Sandoval had already made well publicized defections from Cuba, were living in the USA and were well on their way to becoming stars. Chucho, the band’s leader and probably best musician of all, remained in Cuba. Less flamboyant as an entertainer then Paquito or Sandoval, it wasn’t until years later that he would become an international star with the Cuban government’s blessings. I agree about the Mozart thingy. The "Mozart theme" is the Adagio (2nd mvt.) from the Mozart clarinet concerto. I like Paquito’s playing, but this is kinda tasteless playing; have always hated it. The real thing: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fFEt10lDo2s |
"That was a time where jazz music was a four-letter word in Cuba – literally! After many years of that thought, in 1967, they decided to create the Orquesta [Cubana de Música Moderna]. There were a lot of left wing people going to Cuba, attending congresses and visiting. So the government decided to create an image that jazz was not forbidden and that nothing was forbidden there. So they created the Orquesta to play American music – that is incredible. It was to create a different image than what they had created all those years. So they created the Orquesta. I directed the band for two years. . . . When I decided that I wanted to play only jazz in the Orquesta, then I got fired . . . . and after a while, the Orquesta ceased to achieve the function that it was created for and it disappeared—D’Rivera 2011
What better symbol of freedom and individuality than jazz? |
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Rok, that would certainly be a disaster and one which I have thankfully never witnessed. I have been involved in probably 30 plus performances of Bolero over the years and the most memorable disaster, was a performance with a major orchestra (which shall remained nameless) while on tour in Spain during the World’s Fair in Seville (hint) in which the trombone player (substitute) got off by a beat during his solo. The headline in the following morning’s newspaper review read "A derailed Bolero" ("Un Bolero descarrilado"). Poor guy.
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O-10, that was actually a very conservative estimate; wouldn’t want to be accused of braggadocio 🤗. Moreover, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if Wynton has never played Bolero. Well, maybe at Juilliard, your favorite institution of higher learning, maybe once or twice. It’s not what he does; that’s all. Now, I know you have often said that you are not interested in learning "one single iota" about music; no problem. Perhaps you are interested in learning a little bit about the music scene. If not, you need read no further.
Symphony orchestras program Bolero, on average, probably once or twice a year; the piece is a staple of the orchestral rep. Every time that it’s programmed it receives three or four performances. If it’s programmed twice a year that is 6-8 performances. As a freelance saxophonist for 35 years I have played with at least a dozen different orchestras at one time or another. If you do the math, 30 Boleros is neither terribly unusual nor record breaking. Also, most saxophonists who play Classical music also play jazz. Recently retired bass clarinetist with the Philadelphia Orchestra, Ron Reuben, is also a very fine jazz player who also played saxophone in the orchestra for decades; he probably holds the record. Glad to inform you (if you’re still here). Btw, you may recall that I once posted on this thread a very funny story about Gerry Mulligan playing Bolero (on soprano) with the NY Phil. Not what he does (did); we can leave it at that 😉
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Coltrane/Hartman: Whose name appears first in the title of a record or movie credits or.. is a big deal, contractually and ego wise. How often does one see the name of a well known singer follow the name of an instrumentalist in the title of a record? Not often. Such was the stature of Coltrane by the time this was recorded. Gorgeous record with gorgeous singing and playing; a real classic. It is interesting to note that Hartman was reluctant to accept the gig with Coltrane because he did not consider himself a jazz singer (!?); he thought of himself as a balladeer. **** what happened to all the male Jazz singers? **** Probably the best right now: https://youtu.be/LLZwOOEFFKshttps://youtu.be/iXprs8-U5nAOn a funny note, and on the subject of dropping drumsticks, all the songs on this record are reputed to have been done in one take except for one which had to be restarted because Elvin Jones dropped one of his drumsticks 😎 |
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rockadanny, we welcome new posters and their contributions. I am certain that the last thing that anyone here needs is to be spoken for and this comment is not intended that way. Having said that, you are making a mistake with your assumption and reaction.
First, consider that this thread has been active for seven years! All the regular contributors’ posting styles are well known and, believe it or not, humor is a big and welcomed aspect of many of the posts. Had you been paying attention you would have noticed that Dolphy’s virtues as a player was being well acknowledged around the time of your post and certainly going back years as well; and probably more so by the contributor you quote than anyone else. If one loves Dolphy, one loves the bass clarinet. Point is, don’t take it personally. It was a bit of humor and nothing more. So, please post some music and have a cookie. |
Hah!!!
Was about to post this, but changed my mind and deleted (all in good fun):
“acman3, you out there?”
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Nice Lou Rawls, All around agreement re Lou Rawls. What a voice and what style! I'm sure Rok would approve of the impression that whatever he sings has the feeling of the blues. Great singer. I love Stanley Turrentine and have posted quite a bit of his stuff. I'm afraid that "The Man WTSF" doesn't do it for me. Beautiful and very distinctive tenor playing style; sexiest tenor sound ever. I'm afraid that "The Man With The Sad Face" just doesn't do it for me. IMO, this was the low point in his recording career and the reason that there was so much criticism around that time of the move by him, Benson and others to that style of over-produced "disco-jazz"; in a word, saccharine. Everything that I don't like about much of the CTI stuff, on steroids. Might there be some hidden meaning in that title? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v-rtDIbCZTkhttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GLP9osh3Z1ghttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2HWKdQEnfcI |
Great example of why many have said that young Wynton, and to quote Miles, "ain’t saying shit". To be fair, the same can be said of all the horn players on these cuts. Also to be fair, and to give some credit where credit is due, 1981 was a time when many wondered where jazz was headed and whether it was dead, and a lot of the young lions’ brand of "retro" jazz was welcomed by the jazz traditionalists as a sign that there was still hope. The problem was that the real hope was in the new directions that jazz was taking. Blakey’s band was always a training ground for young players and here it sounds just like that; a training ground. Beautiful and impressive trumpet playing with lots of fireworks by Wynton, but where’s the jazz? Where’s the story? Don’t want to just blindly bash, but I don’t hear it. I will say that his jazz playing has grown more convincing over the years, but still not on the level of his many other talents. I have always felt Bobby Watson was a very overrated player. "Album of the year"? Really? Compared to this from the same year?:: https://youtu.be/zJplKSrRbxQ |
O-10, I don’t believe that’s the case at all, that quotes about Wynton are misunderstood. It’s very clear to anyone who is a at least a moderately astute jazz listener understands what Miles meant. That, as I said, and you reiterated, Wynton is a great trumpet player, but simply not a great jazz player; especially as a young man. Anyone who can’t appreciate what a great trumpet player Wynton is has no business commenting on music, imo. Wynton’s cred as a trumpet player was not questioned. Remember, a big reason for why he made such a big splash initially was because of the Classical music recordings made in conjunction with the jazz recordings. Pretty impressive by any measure. He has grown a lot as a player since that record was recorded and I think it’s important to be fair and reasonable about a person who is so important in the jazz world. Miles’ quote goes to the core of what is jazz: you’ve got to be saying something in your solo. To my ear he does this best with the Louis Armstrong and Ellington style material.
You are correct about the different moods re Blakey/Peterson, but I don’t see what subjectivity has to do with anything. Mood doesn’t factor in when a "best of", "album of the year", Grammy, etc. is awarded. The criteria used are more general or objective than that. Let’s put it this way: you go to the fruit shop and you see a mealy overripe apple and a perfect juicy and firm orange. Is it not fair to say that the orange is a better piece of fruit? |
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**** Universal World Blues ****
My point precisely. That is the most beautiful thing about music; no matter the country of origin it ultimately goes to the same place in all us. We tend to forget or fight that truth and sometimes want to make music OUR music; and ours only.
**** while slavery beat the Africa out of the Africans ****
No way. Maybe a little (or a lot, depending on one’s point of view), but I’m not African American and I would leave that call to one who is.
Had a feeling you would like "Afrocubism". |
While I am making absolutely NO judgment, one way or the other, about what I think you seem to be suggesting, I need to point out that when I responded "No way", in my mind I was going in a totally different direction. I would suggest that, were O-10’s comment about "beating Africa out...", true there would be no jazz as we know it; for one thing.
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Everything that I am referring to is musicological and there is a tremendous amount written on the subject and it frankly always surprises me that there is so much misunderstanding about this. I understand that you feel "your kind" of jazz began with Parker, but to suggest that he "created it" (bebop) without the lineage of influence that preceded it, all the way back to Africa and other places, is simply scratching the surface of the reality of it all.
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Pure class. I have no doubt you know all about that subject. If it weren't all so pathetic I might thank you guys for making it so easy. |
If course it is. Unless, of course, you believe that every nuance and aspect of a person that can be attributed to his heritage, can be completely erased. I don’t. Besides, the musical proof is there to be heard.
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Yikes! X2
Re "the information": the web is an amazing thing; just simple searches required.
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Glad to see the interest in this music. Honest question: I would genuinely like to know how it is that some of you process the obvious fact that, probably without exception, every respected jazz historian and musicologist believes and has written about jazz’ roots in African (and others) cultures? Or, the fact that most jazz musicians believe this firmly? The fact that a tremendous amount of information has been provided to show the link? Aren’t you the least bit curious as to what is behind all this? Have you read anything on the subject? Just wondering.
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....and, of course, we all know that a double high C on the trumpet would never attract attention 😊 (that was for rockadanny) https://youtu.be/47uuEYv-C7o |
The stubborn refusal to accept or even consider this information simply because it flies in the face of what one has mistakenly believed for a long time would actually be a bit humorous if it weren’t so unfortunate and ...... Don’t you ever say to yourself: "hmm, I never thought of that. That’s interesting; maybe there’s something there?"
**** How did people who couldn’t even write music know all this brilliant stuff? ****
Why is being able to write music, now, all of a sudden, an important factor for you when you have so often expressed amazement and admiration for the talent and skill of those jazz players who couldn’t write music? What we’re talking about has nothing to do with writing music, but with influence and tradition.
How is it that some Canadians speak with a French accent?
How is it that many of us speak with voices that resemble our father’s voice; or, have his mannerisms?
And, on and on....
**** I would rather put the pieces together for myself. ****
Ok, let’s hear (read). Care to share?
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O-10, how you or anyone else feels about Wynton's jazz playing has nothing to do with this. I don't understand what is so difficult about this. You may feel it doesn't apply to you, but to understand some of this from a more credible stance and not one that is simply "because I say so", is, imo, vitally important if one is to claim any credibility or authority on the general subject. I believe the last six words or so are the definition of "Aficionado".
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O-10, with all due respect, your logic is flawed. First, who said we had "narrowed it down to bebop"? That’s the first flaw; one cannot discuss jazz with bebop as the "beginning". Moreover, this is not "Wynton’s" point of view; it is a universal point of view. Except, O-10’s, of course 😉 A little more for the curious: (Go to 2:40) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmvaZqr6RFYhttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2qteYQy_8qkhttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=30LDSn5uioSo, obvious question: who should the person wanting to know about and understand a little about the history and roots of Jazz believe? Duke, Wynton, Billy Taylor and Dizzy? Or, O-10? ☺️ |
Rok, why do you dance around this issue? The worst racist is he who sees racism around every corner. Now, no one is suggesting that race doesn’t have an important role in the history of jazz. But, what is at issue here is whether and how THAT VERY RACE is reflected in the music. You are contradicting yourself and don’t seem to know it. Put aside what he said to Ken Burns for a moment. How do you explain away what he said in the clip I posted? More importantly, why can't you see anything good in (your?) African heritage? Before you jump all over this last question, go over some of what you have written.
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**** Transport any or all of the players involved in these Jazz ’interviews’ to present day America, and you get an entirely different answer to all the questions. **** Wrong. What they talked about is as accepted today just as it was back then. You must have missed this; from your own Wynton: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=p5nU82xdMjA**** What about racism and segregation in NYC? **** Huh? Oh, you must be referring to the ironies of ironies of a few years ago: Wynton was threatened with lawsuits for wanting to fire all the white players in his LC band in order to have an all black band. The issue being discussed here is not slavery or racism. IT IS THE DEVELOPENT AND EVOLUTION OF AN ART FORM. The shame is that understanding this is one of the keys to becoming better listeners. I know, I know..... oh, well. It remains as much a mystery today as it did four years ago (!) why someone can prefer to continue in a fantasy "reality" about something they purport to love so much in spite of so much opposing data and informed commentary. |
O-10, I understand how deeply you feel about and from this music; very admirable and kudos to you. I will say this again, as before, in the hope that this might spark some curiosity in you to dig a little deeper about all this. You are simply mistaken with some of these assertions and I would strongly encourage you to read more on the subject and develop a more sound basis for so much confidence on these topics. My motivation in pointing these things out is simply the belief, based on a lot of experience on the subject and the corroboration of many, that this will heighten your appreciation of the music. Perhaps the comfort of believing that you know all there is to know is the most important thing for you; I would hope not.
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O-10, sorry, but you've got this wrong also. That is NOT what Rok is saying; I believe that is what you are saying. He has already given us a list of things that were not stripped (and some he wished were). But, I don't want to comment to you about what he said; I would prefer to do it more directly. With all due respect you are simply not understanding how influence in the arts plays out over time. Also with respect, not surprising for someone who proudly proclaims that he doesn't want to learn anything about music. You may have your own notions about the sociology of it all, but while I may disagree with some of that too, I am referring to musicological issues. Frankly, I don't see how there can be any common ground about all this with someone who feels he can discuss jazz history in any capacity while holding on to the view that it started with Bird. Now, your clip. How do I like it?
First, I've been here long enough to able to smell a troll. No problem, I'll play. I hope I am mistaken re the troll part for reasons that will be explained by my comments:
I love Bird's playing; always have, poor sound quality and all. I love Dizzy the composer of the melody in your clip. I love "Night In Tunisia", the tune. I love educating children about music; the purpose of that recording. Having said all that, and since you asked, imo, it is musical bulls**t. Played and sung with a lame feel; very square and not idiomatic at all. I am sure that, if asked, you would point out that they didn't even use a real saxophone, but a sampled alto sound played on an electronic keyboard as well as other sampled horn sounds. The "alto" "solo" sounds the way a Junior HS band student would "play jazz", and the electric bass sound is awful. How do you like it?
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I think it's safe to say that, as far as I can tell, "all" means 2. Rok, kindly explain how it is that I "have lost the argument"? Not that I bother with all this to win an argument, because as you correctly point out the truth always wins and of course it has won again. Now, re the "correct critique": practice what you preach and keep your own comments to "I like", "I don't like" and we'll see. Moreover, everything I wrote about that clip is absolutely and factually correct. You are welcome to prove me wrong about any of it , including Wynton. It's time to stop beating around the bush with some of this stuff: if you can't hear what I described (which is so obvious) then I think ....actually, I think you can and are just too bent out of shape because you know deep inside that it is you who has lost the argument. Cheers.
Btw, and I know you may not understand this, but in my book this comment says it all as far as where a person might or might not find truth. There are limits to everything:
**** I thought this clown was dead. Dang!! ****
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Rok, you really should quit while you're only this far behind 🙁. You're just grabbing at straws now and using the usual convoluted logic. Please stop digging your hole deeper. What is the point of comparing a performance by children with all the charm of such with a lame performance by adults FOR children? That the music is written for children does not preclude artistic excellence; nor should it. Have you heard Britten's "The Young Person's Guide The Orchestra"? There are many works along those lines and recordings by the greatest orchestras on the planet as well as smaller projects. I have been involved in more Children's Concerts than I can remember and regardless of the simplicity of the music the most effective and educational (for the children) are those performed with artistic integrity; this, as demostrated by the kids' reactions and follow up. Re your tasteless comment:
Your explanation might have been believable (somewhat) had you not followed it up with:
**** This ruckus has already revived one unpleasant, moronic corpse from the past. ****
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Acman3, thanks for that Averhoff clip; had not heard that before. Carlos Averhoff was the tenor player in Irakere and if you listened to the clips of that band that Rok posted he is the person announcing the band and musicians (he was the only English speaking member of the band). Smoking performance. Gonzalo Rubalcaba sounds amazing. What I particularly like about that clip is that, while it sounds similar to some of Irakere's stuff, it has the intensity but not as much nervous energy as a lot of Irakere. I found a little info about this recording and it appears this was Rubalcaba's rhythm section and Irakere's (post Paquito and Sandoval) horn section. Would love to hear more from this album which appears to be Averhoff's project. Great stuff, thanks. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gYqHFs1N5lk |
Beautiful clip all the way around. What a player he was! Tasty and classy story telling. One of the best things I've seen on the Tube. https://youtu.be/D457b9QZ0RY |
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Yikes! You're being kind. Sort of off.
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For the record, it is not true, and a distortion of what the "debate" was about that "a majority of Aficionados concluded that African music had nothing to do with the origination of" bebop. Lets look at the facts: three regular contributors and one new commented at all on the topic. Of the regulars one said NO, one said MAYBE A LITTLE, and one said YES. The new poster suggested that the answer was YES. We don't know how the others who did comment feel about this. Why is this important? Because it is important to have clarity about what goes on here; but, most importantly, and regardless of what some may think, this notion goes completely counter to everything authoritative that has been written or said on the subject. Now, back to the regular programming of fake musicology. |
There is absolutely nothing ridiculous about what I have said on the subject. You disagree, fine; but, as concerns this, you are living in a reality of your own making that has no backing nor credence. That you guys can't hear the musical connections nor make the associations to the various ethnic influences in jazz that are there to be heard does not validate an alternate reality.
O-10, I am afraid your thought process at times like this is no more clear and accurate than your grammar. I would love nothing more than to not get entangled in these stupid arguments. But, in my book this topic matters. It is so basic and important to the general topic of this thread that gross misstatements and made up sh*t need to be called out. Moreover, if you can't understand why I would not want to take you up on your "offer" to lead the discussion about Cuban music after the series of taunting and provocative comments by you and your (for today) cohort, then I'm afraid you are in the dark about more than just music and its history. Go back over those posts; if you care. This will be the last thing I say on the subject (for now); perhaps some of it will sink in. Pay close attention, now:
**** you choose to point out where Bebop originated in Africa ****
That you would make such a statement points to the absence of any kind of grounding on the subject. No one has said that Bebop "originated" in Africa. The distinction between "originate" and "influence" is key. African music was one of the major influences in the creation of jazz. Bebop is jazz. Without the jazz (and blues) styles that preceded Bebop there would be no Bebop. Hence, Bebop was influenced by African music. What is so difficult to understand about this?
Btw, the suggestion that "modern jazz" ended in the 70's is equally non-sensical. So, then, are you saying that there has been no jazz created since the 70's? If you are not saying that, then what does one call jazz produced from the 70's to the present day, if not "modern"? |
I suppose I should be glad that you guys finally had the good sense to concede 😔; but, as always, it's too bad that you perceive the opportunity to learn something new as a "fight" or "argument". Who was it that often said, "Lord, lord, my burden is great"? ☺️ Well, "Lord, lord, my burden is great"; more fake musicology. While it is true that Bird was a leading exponent of bebop and probably the greatest, he was far from "the only one who could do it" and not the first to move in that direction musically. In fact, he was not the first to lead a bebop recording session; Coleman Hawkins was. In fact, in was Hawkins' 1939 recording of "Body And Soul" that "cracked the door" into the bebop "room". In the early 40's bebop was taking shape and being molded by the musical experimentations and contributions of several players who were coming out of the swing tradition and who sought to move the music forward with a much more sophisticated harmonic palette and emphasis on improvisation with great technical virtuosity. Bird certainly distinguished himself as probably the greatest exponent of the style, but to suggest that he was a lone voice is not true at all. An interesting footnote about this period in jazz, and one very unfortunate and ironic one at that, is that due to a two year long (1942-44?) musicians' union strike during which all recording was prohibited, there are no (formal) documents of the most important years in the music's development. This is one of the reasons that so many of Bird's recordings have poor sound quality; they were bootleg recordings. These particulars may not matter to some who want to keep their personal heroes on a unrealistic pedestal, but they truly are important to understanding and having an honest grasp of the evolution of this great music. I am not a huge fan of Wiki as a source of definitive information, but this is one of the best Wiki entries that I've read and is recommended for anyone who wants a more comprehensive look at what was going on at the time of bebop' birth: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BebopBtw, "Bird With Strings" (great record and thanks for the clip, O-10) was born out of Bird's deep interest in Classical music; Igor Stravinsky and Bartok in particular. He really wanted to record with a string section and blend elements of Jazz and of Classical. O-10, the following is not intended to provoke nor prolong any "argument", but to try to clarify (again) and hopefully pave the way to better and less contentious interaction on this thread. Contrary to your assertions, your comments about my motivations are off the mark. Let me put it this way and hopefully this will clarify where I'm coming from: I have no interest in "impressing" anyone nor win arguments. How can I say this? Because nothing I write or have written is anything new, revelatory, nor particularly interesting to anyone who has a truly indepth knowledge of this stuff. It is all out there to read and learn for anyone who has the interest and curiosity to do so. As I have said before, try speaking to someone like Billy Taylor or Wynton about this stuff; their level of knowledge and perspective is awe inspiring. Food for thought....hopefully. |
At its most basic, what you and Rok don't seem to be able to grasp (and, actually, at this point of the protracted "argument", I believe its more a case of not wanting to) is the simple fact that the evolution of music forms is a continuum; they are not discreet separated steps. As Alex correctly points out its all connected. Do you really think that Bebop simply sprung up without connections to what came before it? If you can't understand why something like Coleman Hawkins' famous and groundbreaking recording of Body And Soul with the departure from a traditional (swing) improvisation style, to the much more angular with advanced harmonic approach, then all I can say is that you have a lot more to consider; but, we knew that.
**** Music can not, nor should it ever be approached from an intellectual stance. ****
False. The enjoyment of music, NO, you are correct; not entirely, anyway. That's personal and if a particular listener happens to like something I consider bad for whatever reason, then so be it. The analysis of music? YES, YES, and YES. And analyze is what we are doing with this topic.
**** Why would I speak to Billy Taylor or Wynton Marsalis about Bebop? When it was the first corner of jazz I explored. ****
BINGO!!!!! We are finally getting somewhere. Answer? Because, as someone no longer posting here (yes, one of those) once wrote: it seems that it is always about you, O-10. Why should it matter one bit that bebop was the "first corner of jazz that you explored"? Why is it that you think your own necessarily limited experience with this means that this is the universal truth about such a complicated topic? No offense meant, but....man!
Rok, nice try, but most of what you wrote has little if anything to do with what we are discussing. Beethoven? Really? Kindly explain where ANY significant African influence or exposure to, of any kind, would have existed in Beethoven'a sphere of influence to have, well.....influenced him. Obviously, none. Re you "logical point of view #2":
African slaves were NOT stripped of everything African. In fact, New Orleans, the birth place of jazz, was the only place where they were allowed to keep their drums. So......duh! You don't want to consider any of this? That's fine; believe what you will. Much more that can be said on the subject, but as Forest Gump so succinctly said: "I'm pretty tired, I think I'll go home now". |
Great record and deserving of all the hoopla around it. Very classy renditions of classic Cuban songs. Renditions so good, like O-10's bouillabaisse, that even it's one flaw (for me) couldn't do significant damage to the music. Why, oh why, did Ry Cooder have to play slide guitar on it?! Ego? Who knows. He deserves tremendous credit for conceiving this project and making it all happen, but to take traditional music like this and inject a completely non-traditional, non-idiomatic sound into the mix is a little akin to playing a sitar in a blues tune. There are times when things sound a little Hawaiian because of that slide guitar; weird. Still, beautiful record. Before the Cuban All-Stars simple trios of vocalists playing only guitar, maracas, guiro and perhaps one other percussion instrument was very common in traditional Cuban music. Founded in the 1920's Trio Matamoros, well before Buena Vista, played and sang "son" and "guajiras" (Cuban "country music"): https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LfdwBDo2jqAThe "rumba", with its more obvious African influence would be one more of the influences (there were several) that would blend with son and guajira to create the "fusion" what today many refer to as salsa or timba. It should be pointed out that "salsa" what many consider "Latin music" is really a product of the mentioned Cuban styles and American music: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=m-9JLuvoSPI |
Since all this is clearly becoming very tiresome, I would like to try and resolve it this way:
There is a huge amount that has been written and stated on these topics by (imo) legions (literally) of authoritative sources that supports my point of view; not difficult to find this info at all. It would defy logic that if there was any validity to the counter-argument that there would be, at least, SOMETHING written SOMEWHERE to support the opposing point of view. I hope that we can, at least, agree that our humble little playground of a thread is not the only place where disagreement has been expressed; if there is any. I pose a challenge: let's see that material; kindly post some of it. I don't have a problem with being proved wrong and would welcome it. |
I feel better now 😀 **** Same with the African slaves. They were taught Christianity. Had to speak English. Sang English church music Families that did exist were broken up. --- No African Music. No African language. No African Religion. No African families No African anything. **** Sorry, not true. Well documented in many other sources besides this one: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_VoodooFrom the same article: ++The enslaved community quickly outnumbered white European colonists. The French colony was not a stable society when the enslaved Africans arrived, and the newly arrived Africans dominated the slave community. According to a census of 1731-1732, the ratio of enslaved Africans to European settlers was more than two to one.[3] As a relatively small number of colonists were planters and slaveholders, the Africans were held in large groups, which enabled their preservation of African indigenous practices and culture.[4] Unlike in the Upper South and other parts of British Colonial American, where different groups were brought together and slave families were frequently divided among different plantations, in southern Louisiana families, cultures and languages were kept more intact.[5]++ |
