o10, I think that video is mis-labeled. I was expecting something by the Blue String Orchestra! ;^) More correctly it is -- Paul Desmond, "Desmond Blue" with string orchestra. I know, not your doing.
Aside from that anal reaction, I just never get into jazz albums when featured artists are backed by string orchestras. That seems counter to jazz in my mind. Just yesterday my favored local jazz FM station featured the Charlie Parker album with strings!?!
Anyway, to step down off my soapbox, frogman's suggestion for the Monk/Coltrane concert at Carnegie Hall reminded me to pull it out to enjoy it again. In addition to the music, the liner notes show a copy of the billing for the concert. Just imagine if you could hear Billie Holiday, Dizzy Gillespie, Ray Charles, Chet Baker with Zoot Sims, Sonny Rollins, and Thelonious with Coltrane, ALL for only $2.00 to $3.95 PER TICKET!!! Of course that was in November, 1957! But still, what a bargain!
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That's funny frog. Before reading to the end of your post I started thinking of "Focus" as the sole exception to my "no string orchestras in jazz" rule. In fact, I was going to find a link and post it. ;^)
So you saved me the trouble. BTW, I've had that album for at least 40 years.
Back to Carnegie Hall, your being in NYC means you would know, but my impression is most concert or Broadway play tickets today can easily begin near $100. So that inflation adjusted $17.50 still represents a phenomenal bargain.
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Yes o10, back on your feet soon would be nice. But the important thing is that you get back on your feet again. So have patience, and stay positive. There is simply too much great jazz to enjoy yet.
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acman, I've not followed Dave Holland recently but I really enjoyed the Crosscurrents Trio. Thanks for introducing me to those.
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Another sampling of Smith, with more found on the right side column - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmFqNFqqoRUOf course I should admit I’d never heard of him. But that is explained in the beginning of the New Yorker article. |
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o10, we have a coupe of musical street fairs each year in an older neighborhood in town. Several years ago, about the time of the release of the movie "Frida", one of the performers on one of several stages was Lila Downs. In spite of a microphone problem she put on a great show and I've been a big fan ever since. There is such warmth and sincerity in her performances.
Also, I believe I posted that Gil Evens album previously. I somehow missed it when it was released but it became a favorite after hearing it a couple of years ago.
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ghosthouse, your comment "there's a lot of discussing and obsessing about the best hardware for audio when the critical variable that can make a mega $ system sound like trash or a mid-fi system sound great is the recording itself!" should be posted on audio sites, not this music site. Proof in point, a few days ago I wanted to test an old NAD 3020 I recently had repaired for a channel drop out. The NAD is connected to a pair of nearly as old Signet speakers I used to enhance the audio with my TV. I mention that only to identify the system as both old and inexpensive. The disc I played was "Louis Armstrong & Duke Ellington, The Great Summit". I was doing other things, only listening for background to see if an extended time would verify the repair was successful. But then I realized how great it sounded and had to stop and sit to listen directly, captivated by the music. The components were considered respectable in their day but certainly not great. And yet I was drawn in to appreciation by the playback! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEUKM-n3dq8 |
o10, if this helps you find it, my CD of Satch and Duke is a double album, as was done with many CD reissues. It includes "The Great Summit" and "The Master Takes", both recorded over two day's sessions. Mine is a Roulette Jazz label and remastered in 24-bit/96 kHz. I hadn't played it in years and forgot how good it is.
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o10, that soundtrack is a bit confusing. The link you provided doesn't include Monk or any of his songs. In the bio, "Thelonious Monk, The Life and Times of an American Original" there is discussion about Monk avoiding signing the contract for the score until the very last minute. When he finally signed and went to the studio to record the music he only did a few of his existing compositions rather than write anything new. The exception was his solo performance of the old hymn, "We'll Understand it Better, By and By". Most of the music furnished to Vadim for the film was done in those same sessions by Blakey and the Jazz Messengers.
I've never seen the film but the title and credits in your link leave me wondering.
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frog, thanks for filling in the blanks here. This makes me wonder how the Jordan album could be released claiming to be the soundtrack?
Oh well, C'est la vie.
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Well, that was clear, until it was not.
You suggest "the names of the tunes were changed." From my listening, o10's initial post was not Monk, and those tunes were not the same as listed for his recording date in the bio I referenced.
I didn't watch the film link beyond the opening two minutes or so. As you pointed out, that was obviously Monk. So without having watched the remainder of the film could it be that the Jordan music was utilized in the soundtrack for only the "party scene" while the remainder of the film utilized music recorded in that three day session with Monk and Blakey and the Jazz Messengers? That way both could be credited as from the soundtrack.
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As mentioned, the Monk/Blakey & Jazz Messengers tracks were never released on a album. So even while I'd choose that, it is apparently a wasted pick. :^(
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mary_jo, you (and others) may enjoy this old radio program. The name of the show says it all. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4QiZbHlBMII have friends who are similar to this, it nearly always seems they are snipping at each other. But they are a devoted couple and have been married for nearly 60 years . . . so whatever works. ;^) |
Well, I guess I just proved it is foolish to offer comments on music I’ve not heard. :^(
As I admitted, I hadn’t watched the film so could only guess about the specific music beyond the first two minutes or so. However I based my input on what I’d read in the Monk bio. That stated that Monk as well as Blakey and the Messengers were booked into a studio for three days to make their recordings for the film. Apparently Monk laid down his tracks the first day. There was no suggestion that Monk recorded with the Messengers during that session. And so far as I read, Jordan and his band were not present. I believe all that fits within the information/suggestion provided by frogman.
Also o10, I should have said no recording release of Monk’s performance for the film. Obviously as linked here, both Blakey & the JM (I skipped over that) and Jordan do have soundtrack records.
Sorry if I added confusion. |
Regarding the "Hudson" track. Those who read Stereophile will know the album was recently selected as their recording of the month. When I first began listening I thought, OK, heavy bass line to propel it forward but nothing really grabbed me. But the review mentioned the resemblance with Miles from the "Silent Way", "Bitches Brew" period. I could hear some Mahavishnu Orchestra as well, which led me to the post above. A second listen, all the way through this time, was a little more fun.
The review also discusses the use of classic rock associated with the Hudson Valley as well as a few new compositions. "Woodstock" and other rock numbers can be found in the listing to the right for anyone else curious about how they were adapted.
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It may not have been jazz -- but this video shows the improvisation and interplay among the musicians of a very creative group from the early '70s. I may have mentioned it before but I saw them in concert around this time. It was in a small club, probably no more than 200, and we had a table up front. Watching the musicians trade off lines and feed off one another's energy was something special. Cobham was a coiled spring that released more and more energy as the night went on. Certainly one of my Top 10 concert experiences. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-0bMRcBik4 |
o10, Ry has such a variety in his recordings I think it is impossible to make an absolute recommendation -- it may all depend on what sort of listening mood you're in at the time. I will say I've only heard one of his which I didn't enjoy, "Bop Till You Drop". For all that, possibly his most popular recording and thus a safe place to begin is the "Buena Vista Social Club". He doesn't play lead, instead allowing a great group of little known (within the US) musicians enjoy the spot light. I believe he was the producer though so deserves much credit for pulling off the the whole thing. So yes, it features underdogs! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNYOVEXJBBM |
Lots to be thankful for today, including the wonderful heritage of jazz as it has progressed from its creation in America in the early 1900s.
I'll add my welcome to luizfcoimbra. Your country has made some nice additions to the lexicon.
I was going to offer "Way Out West" as another counter to inna's position but o10 beat me to it. ;^)
For a long time I had little tolerance for "country" music. Only a few artists like Willie Nelson and Patsy Cline interested me. And BTW I consider mountain music/blue grass/string band music to be separate from country. So Doc Watson, Alison Krauss, the Dirt Band, etc. have been on my playlist. That label applies more to the commercial Nashville product in my mind. But then I happened to attend a George Jones concert with a friend (I'm leaving out the longer story of how that came about) and was truly impressed. That opened my eyes, and ears, to some of the more traditional country artists who are worth listening to.
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Not to step away from Rollins, who I admire for both his musical talent and intellect, but I just stumbled across this nearly 30-year-old 60 Minutes interview with Miles. "I never suffered, and I can still play the blues." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sb6WIzRbCjo |
Luiz, interesting that a direct to disc master was reissued with a Japanese pressing. I don't pretend to have expertise with that but I'm surprised if a) WB was willing to let a D2D master out of their immediate control, and b) that a D2D master would be sent overseas.
Reading about Sheffield D2Ds years ago I thought they made a point that it was considered critical to create the stampers from the master as quickly as possible?
Can anyone more familiar with production shed some light on this?
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Yes o10, I'm waiting too, though it is not critical.
I do own a few D2D LPs, but all of them were produced by US companies. So it was just a curiosity about the Japanese pressing.
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Hi frog, thanks so much for all your follow up efforts on the direct disc process. I thought the master disc was the "mother" from which the stampers were produced? Saving the extra processing steps was key to their sonic qualities. So the issue was not with stamper degradation but the potential for problems before the stampers were created.
Anyway, I appreciated the background on the LA4 recording. I have a few of theirs but not that particular album. |
Now, at the danger of repeating a recommendation posted previously, I offer this. It was among the first jazz albums I bought, I was still in high school. Mulligan has been a favorite ever since. I love his small group recordings and even appreciate some of his big band efforts, although in general I'm not much into big bands. He was an artist who excelled in creative output, whether leading his own groups or sitting in with a wide variety of other major jazz musicians. I just love his tone. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MX7BPKVjJbM |
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Nice Mulligan choices o10. Here’s a bari player I wasn’t familiar with while he was still alive. Fortunately the music lives on. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=degZcUFL9SAIt might require a couple of listens but I didn’t enjoy that Cherry as much as my albums with Old And New Dreams. |
o10, I have maybe 20 Brubeck albums and that one must be in my top 5. But no, I've never actually rated them all. ;^)
frog, that Mulligan/Getz album is the one I have. Also I should have known that Chaloff was one of the famed Four Brothers. My excuse is the Herman albums in my collection seem to be from the mid-60s onward.
And yes, Carney was another who had a beautiful sound. This may be true with any instrument, but the potential for the tonalities make both the bari and tenor sax favorite instruments for me.
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o10, not to discredit Adams (I enjoy him too) but Ronnie Cuber is given credit for the bari work on the Mingus album.
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o10, thanks for the Bley link. I wasn't familiar with that recording, but I like it. And while I had to also listen to "Ring Christmas Bells", your link reminded me of this brief Monk piece not associated with Christmas - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Gew5sD4CIY |
Thanks o10, I enjoyed that. I’d read the review in Stereophile of the "Small Town" album and was curious. This was an interesting video, I noted posted by ECM, apparently on a turntable shot outside so the cloud reflections could be captured. But who are "they"? Here is another tune from that album but this one is the studio version from the source acman3 posted - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1meUGGtYzoQuite different from the brassy Bassey version we’re all familiar with. ;^) |
Hi o10,
I’m not familiar with DOL, in fact never heard of it before. I did note from the link you provided they are from Russia and apparently they are all bootlegs. I would avoid them based simply on that. Plus some of the user comments below the listing were not very positive.
Due to my age and having been buying jazz LPs for so long, the majority of my collection are original releases. And most of those were bought new. In later years when I began infilling albums I missed I’ve been very careful about condition for used purchases -- clean, flat, scratchless.
In the past 10 years I have bought a few reissues, mostly of things I didn’t own, sometimes after giving up on finding clean used copies.
My position may be somewhat controversial but I do not buy new reissues to get remastered or reengineered versions. Whenever I’ve been able to compare an original against a reissue most times I prefer the original. That of course assumes the original plays quietly. I judge my records by 1) the performance, 2) condition of the LP, and 3) the quality of the recording itself. After #1 there is little separation between 2 and 3.
I’ve always been somewhat anal about record handling. ;^) My first stereo included a Dual changer, but I always used the short spindle and never stacked the records. Also from the beginning it was "fingers off" the groove area and records were stored vertical and dry in their sleeves and jackets. When less expensive cleaning machines than the Monks hit the market I bought a Nitty Gritty, replaced a few years later by a VPI. My reward for all that is playing 50 year old LPs that are still quiet.
Sorry, that’s a long response to a short question.
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o10,
As many have expressed here, we are sorry for the condition you face. Hopefully when you can sit down to enjoy favorite music, that carries you away to a place where the pain(s) is forgotten.
I won't speak against mail order buying, I've never done that for used records. But a couple of times I've been disappointed with new LPs that arrived warped. :^(
Fortunately I live in a large enough city where there are several used record stores and frequent yard/garage sales, although I no longer do the latter. The real treat is to drive to LA and visit Amoeba. But not everyone has that option.
My suggestion for you is to visit Vinyl Asylum and do a search for "used records". If that doesn't turn up enough recommended sellers then post your own question there. I believe that will reach more hobbyists than this Music site.
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o10, so many great drummers in jazz, from Blakey to Dejohnette and many, many others. But aside from basic time keeping, for my money Morello was the most lyrical and thus interesting drummer when it came to solos. I may have posted this previously here but I'll offer it again so others won't need to search back. It is the singularly best drum solo I've experienced - so varied and inventive. Talk to me baby! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbR8G6YNuUM |
I agree that most drum solos can be boring. They seem like token efforts to give some spotlight to the drummer. Something I found irritating was local musician concerts (which I otherwise heartily endorse) developed a trend where every musician seemed to take a solo on every number. I could never understand how that got started? But since it wasn't fair to expect the creativity of a Morello or Roach (or many other accomplished drummers) among our local talent that simply increased the boredom. Speaking of a jazzy Christmas, out local college FM jazz station sponsored a concert last evening with their recently formed jazz band playing the respective scores from Duke Ellington and Shorty Rogers recordings of The Nutcracker Suite. They did a great job and I particularly enjoyed the Rogers' version, something like this - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXzrbaE7M-jL86Zk2_wJQxRMFeowfDgqK |
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Well o10, we know Oscar Peterson is out of contention in this game. And while I agree the Timmons selection is great, here is the most "economical" pianist I know of. It seemed like on some tunes you could "Count" his notes on two hands. No matter if he simply sat at the keyboard, his band was always swinging hard! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FcWW-fMt90 |
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o10, complying with your "revised" rules -- ;^) -- I offer this. If jazz aficionados of a certain age don't recognize the drum intro then the fist four notes on the piano should do it. And yes, it is pretty spare all the way through. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zkH-d0IoAU |
o10, yes, frogman explained my confusion. I was thinking of the whole tune, not just the opening stanza. Still I admit my post was not the example I wanted, just because there was so much else going on with the band that Count’s few but well placed contributions were mask over. What I really had in mind were examples from Basie’s recordings on Pablo in small group settings rather than big band. They offer many examples of Basie’s use of "space between the notes", but were also outside of your stated timeframe. So from an overall perspective of basic style, I can’t think of another musician who better fits your description. But I do stand by my suggestion of "Blue In Green". Now this is a mixture of space and runs, just as Monk frequently played. But it is difficult not to toss it into the ring for consideration - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xC68NtEmAcc |
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Also, that Miles/Monk story sound familiar. Which album came from that?
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frog, if I’m the one you had in mind when teasing about the "one single drum solo" that was not boring then I need to correct two points.
First, I’m just an average jazz fan, not any sort of authority. Second, the Morello example I promoted is not the "only" drum solo which I don’t find boring, just the best example for me of those which are not. That Art Blakey guy wasn’t bad either, or Philly Jo, or Shelly Manne, or DeJohnette, or . . .
Now if that was intended for someone else, forget all this. ;^)
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Wow, stay away for a few hours (I normally only visit once a day) and now so much to comment on. Good show guys!
First I must clarify that I don't consider most drum solos to "suck", I merely fail to find them interesting. They don't add anything to the story of the tune as frogman so aptly describes. I agree with adding many bass solos to this rant. And luckily I never heard that jerk in Florida. ;^)
Then rok, thanks for that link. As expected Wynton and his band really swung. But I would call that a "percussion" solo rather than a drum solo.
o10, yes, Miles is nearly always identified in just the first few notes. But unless someone heard that version of "'Round Midnight" I doubt they would guess the tune by the intro. But at 0:30, five notes and every jazz fan should know!
frog, I have that album by Sullivan and Rodney -- good stuff. Now how many know the story when Red Rodney was in Charlie Parker's band, when they toured the south he was called "Albino Red" since mixed groups were not allowed to perform together or stay at the same hotel in many places?
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frog, forgot to mention I had no idea Sullivan was so versatile and talented. I'd only heard him on trumpet and flugelhorn. Thanks for all those additional links.
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rok, thanks so much for that link. Mingus is one of my favorite artists and I will watch the entire program. But at 2 hours that will likely be after returning home from a holiday family visit.
For anyone interested in Mingus if you've not read his autobiography "Beneath The Underdog" it is certainly entertaining. Part must be categorized as fiction -- but that was just Mingus!
o10, I'm also a big fan of Silver. When in college I made a feeble attempt to learn playing an upright bass to jam with friends more musically talented than myself. My buddy who played piano was primarily influenced by Silver so that was the style of what we played. He had natural talent and was self-taught and (fortunately for me) played everything in the same key -- C I was told. One of the other guys showed me a basic walking bass pattern on the piano so I found those notes on my bass. I had just enough of an ear to find other notes so I was close to being in tune. ;^) That lasted nearly two years and we developed a repertoire of jazz classics with a few popular songs thrown in. We played a few parties (for food and beer) but my lack of talent held us back so it didn't go any further. But that focused me on bass players which is why Mingus remains one of my overall favorite musicians.
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Hey frog, that Mingus album is among his in my collection. Do you know about his connections with Joni Mitchell? They had a correspondence over his last year or so, which led to her album in tribute to him - "Mingus". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Za0-OAMyAewHe died at 56 from ALS in Mexico. There was a story that 56 whales mysteriously beached themselves on the Pacific Coast that day but I find that difficult to accept. |
The rules of the game changed, or at least my understanding of them. But at my age I'm easily confused it seems. ;^)
Anyway, I thought o10 was originally suggesting submitting songs/artists where the musical message was conveyed by the fewest notes, i.e. with significant space between them. That's why I nominated Basie.
But if I now understand things what he was really asking for is submission of songs which can be identified by the fewest introductory notes. Nothing wrong with that, but it is a different game.
Carry on all . . .
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