Jazz for aficionados

In fairness to the ladies, while these "Funkettes" (meant to represent the Radio City "Rockettes"; an American institution) aren’t exactly "in the pocket", the video track is not in sync with the audio track. It is a little ahead of the audio track so the whole thing looks a little off. It’s also not a live performance. The music was recorded in a studio. Then, James, the band and the dancers were put on a stage for the filming of the "concert" scenes and they "performed" to their own studio performace trying to replicate, as close as possible, the movements of what they did in the studio. Look closely (especially the saxophone and guitar players), they aren’t really playing what you hear on the track. @:22, James sings, but his lips aren’t moving. The video producer oughta be shot. The audio production is excellent ’though and James and the band kill it, as usual.

Arthur Blythe, without a doubt one of the most unique alto sounds with that fast vibrato.  He was one of the first pre-"young lions".   Caused quite a stir when he came on the scene and I lost track of him and his work.  Interesting player.  I like him in limited doses. 

"Hackensack": one of my very favorite clips on all of YouTube.  I posted this here twice before; must have slipped through the cracks.  Two fabulous tenor players who could hardly be more different stylistically.  The other clip from the same performance:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8egSzCBCie0

"segue":  to transition smoothly from one topic to another.  In music:  to proceed without pause from one theme to another.  

In the "Groves Dictionary Of Music" one can find "segue" right  before "Señor Blues" which can be found right before Silver (Horace).  Nicely done, Rok 😊

O-10, you're up!

Nice clip, btw.

All his playing has that quality, but I would say that this is an even better example:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dUAu_3R0VPI

It could be argued that Horace Silver did not have the blazing technique of some other pianists; but, in his case, this was irrelevant.  He was, without a doubt, one of the most individualistic pianists and was very respected by other musicians.  In jazz, as we know, it's all about whether the player is "sayin something" in his playing; Silver always said a lot and his ranking among his peers is right at the top.  His playing was more obviously rooted in the blues than most and one could say that he played the piano with a drummer's perspective.  First of all, it was all about the rhythm with Silver and he often played percussively (like a drummer)  and if you listen closely you will notice much use of "call and response" between his left hand and right hand; the left hand, unlike with many other players, is given as much attention as the right hand.  Call and respinse, as we know, is a hallmark of the blues.  Great player, great composer!

You don't have to tell us where you heard it previously. Just point to some examples.  Thanks.

🐕🐩🐈

****Since I couldn't decide which one of these I liked best, I pasted both of them, and now you can decide for me.****

Silver's own version of Nica's Dream is my favorite of the two; by a long shot!  Blakey's version is too slow.  There is no law that says that a tune can't work played at a tempo different from the one the composer intended, but this is a case when the composer's tempo is so clearly the better one that it makes Blakey's version sound sleepy by comparison and lacking energy. Then, there's Blue Mitchell's solo on Silver's version; that alone makes it the better one for me.

****he expands this tune on this date, like nowhere else,****

Curious about this comment.  What do you mean by "expands".

Senor Blues and other Silver tunes have gotten a lot of attention and deservedly so; but, there's been no mention of what is probably his most recognized tune and, arguably, his best record:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=boVaez6rVNA

The composer talks about his tune:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NFjmWI-d6d4

I asked the question because on the clip you posted Silver solos (what I thought you meant by "expand") for about three minutes and on the clip from Newport he solos for about six minutes.  He also plays much more percussively (like a drummer) on the Newport; not a better or worse thing, just different.  The distortion doesn't bother me in the least; the music comes through loud and clear.

****The interesting fact is, the composer was on both versions; he just decided to play slower with the "Jazz Messengers".****

i doubt that the tempo on Blakey's version was Silver's call since he was a sideman on that date and I have not heard any version of that tune with Silver as the leader that is anywhere near as slow.  I don't think the tune works as well at the slower tempo, and"languid" is a good characterization of Blakey's drumming on that cut.   As I have said before his drumming strikes me lazy sometimes.

****", I didn't know we were through with Mr. Silver****

Wasnt suggesting we were, nor that you were the only one giving Señor Blues attention.  Just surprised the tune hadn't been mentioned by anyone.  No direct reference to you.

Leon Thomas sounds great singing the tune until he starts the yodeling thing; a bit much this time.  Thanks for the clip.

O-10, I like and appreciate clarity in communication; I think the lack of it has led to a lot of silly bickering here.  For that reason, these and any other related comments/questions are in that spirit and an attempt to avoid miscommunication going forward; nothing more.  Having said that, and so that I can be more clear and concise in the future, what exactly about my comment caused you think that I thought that

****we have covered everything there is of significance about Horace Silver****?

  On the other side of the coin (so to speak), while I am well aware that the "yodeling" is a "signature thing", I wrote:

****; a bit much this time****

Iow, I don't particularly dislike it, just think he took it too far in that performance; to the point of distraction.

Nothing kinda vague here. One of my favorite Silver records, but strangely obscure and unknown. Horace Silver/ Eddie Harris; a match made in heaven (Ralph Moore is not too shabby either):

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XTdCMqHbwbM

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LWaOV2U5vyc

Don’t know what to think of this pianist; need to hear more. Very strange YouTube clip, however. I listened to it and I heard what were clearly two (not so subtle) edits at 1:35 and 3:07 and heard what I thought was her quoting "I Remember You". It wasn’t untiI I saw the credits at the end that it became clear that this clip was excerpts from thre different tunes (including "IRY"); but way too close together. Keith Jarrett overtones in her playing and while this is not meant as a dig AT ALL, what little I heard makes me feel that in many ways she is the "anti-Horace Silver": cerebral, dreamy, non-percussive and rhythmically kinda vague. Please report back when you find the CD.

Here I was, thinking that over the last two days you were compiling a comprehensive list of albums and clips by Horace Silver; little did I know that you were ruminating over my comments 😊. O-10, I appreciate you striving for clarity and, more importantly, striving to be "a more astute listener". I think that there’s still work to be done. My thoughts why:

****especially since you and Rok said I don’t want to learn anything, and you’re the master musician. ****

No, O-10, we didn’t say that, YOU have said that; and you remind us every chance you get. And, no, I don’t consider myself a master musician, not even close; I will leave that designation to the likes of....well, I’ll leave it at that.

****I’m still trying to pick up Art Blakey’s sloppy drumming that makes the messengers version of "Nica’s Dream" sound sleepy. ****

I never said his playing was sloppy (on this cut); only that, imo, Blakey’s version was too slow. My commment:

****Blakey’s version sounds sleepy by comparison and lacking energy. ****

Your comment:

****but Blakey’s was "languid" meaning slow and relaxed; this was due to the slower pace, ****
-----------------
From Miriam-Webster dictionary:

"languid":
1
: drooping or flagging from or as if from exhaustion : weak
2
: sluggish in character or disposition : listless
3
: lacking force or quickness of movement : slow
------------------
So, where’s the problem; where’s the disagreement?

Re Thomas:

"Yodeling" for over a minute?! Way too much for me. Why does someone who puts so much stock in "subjectivism" have an issue with my "subjective" opinion on this?

Re Mitchell:

**** I also think you stated that Blue Mitchell’s solo sounded better than Donald Byrd’s solo in the same spot. As good as Blue Mitchell is, he’s no Donald Byrd, and that’s not a subjective evaluation, it comes under objective evaluation, as almost any jazz aficionado will tell you.****

I didn’t say any such thing. I wasn’t comparing the two trumpet players; I compared, AS YOU ASKED US ALL TO DO, AND "DECIDE FOR YOU", which version was better. I said, that Mitchell’s solo alone made Silver’s version better for me. Now, please, pray tell, tell us where it is written that "almost any" aficionado thinks that Byrd was the better trumpet player; this aficinado certainly doesn’t. First of all, he’s not; and, moreover, does this not also fall under the heading of "subjectivism"? Just as a possibly interesting aside: one of the more curious little factoids about Mitchell’s career is that he looked (physically) so much like Freddie Hubbard and played so much at a similarly high level that he was sometimes confused for Freddie; someone who, I hope, we can agree was at the very highest level in the hierarchy of great trumpet players and a level where neither Mitchell (and certainly Byrd) were not quite at.

Got any Silver? Or, thoughts on Silver/Harris 😄
,

Alex, classic, and imo one of the very greatest trumpet solos on record:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RbaGDDbpcQ4

Alex, thanks for that clip.  Great Freddie! Had not heard that.  Check this out; Freddie in his prime (weird audio quality, unfortunately):

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QnWRV_X5bKQ

O-10, we'll simply have to agree to disagree re Mitchell.  As much a I lile Byrd,  I like Mitchell more than Byrd.  You like Byrd; I'm cool with that.  Now, as far as your "yardsticks" are concerned, it would be helpful if you would tell us and explain what musical yardsticks you are using and how they each apply to the two players in question; that would bring some relevance to this discussion.  

Re Thomas (again): with all due respect, you're grabbing at straws.  I like Thomas and I have said so.  I wonder how HE would have felt knowing that his yodeling was the only thing there was to like about his singing; according to O-10 of course.  This is a ridiculous discussion.

Now, O-10, this is your thread and I know you want to maintain high levels of integrity here.  This is just a gentle suggestion.  It is in good form, when quoting someone else's writings (Wiki or others), to make it clear that they are someone else's words.  

**** What happened to the complete, detailed, in-depth, comprehensive, time no object, thorough, and exhaustive review of the music of Horace Silver? ****

Excellent question!

O-10, if your question about Blakey's drumming style is an honest one, I would be glad to go into more detail; and, you could also explain your "yardsticks" comment as I asked you to previously.  But really, I think it's time to stop this silliness; I will, anyway.  I think it's obvious our personal agendas here are very different and, unfortunately, diametrically opposed; so, I would prefer to not distract you from your work on your exhaustive review of Silver's music. 
Regards, and I look forward to your review.

O-10, I asked you for musical yardsticks; iow, pertaining to the playing of the two trumpet players in question.  Stylistic, command of the language of jazz; harmony, rhythm, inventiveness etc. You have provided none.  While things like the number of recordings as a leader are certainly important, that fact says nothing specific about a musician's  playing.  Still, let's  look at a yardstick you are using anyway:  Blue Mitchell recorded 27 records as a leader and more than three times that many as a sideman; a pretty impressive recording resume by any standard.  Now, here's the punchline:  Mitchell died at age 49 and Byrd at age 81!  Makes whatever leg up Byrd may have had in number of recordings pretty irrelevant as far as far as I am concerned.  This still says nothing about who the better player was; a contention that you raised, I simply said that I liked Mitchell's solo on Nica's Dream and you went on to compare it to Byrd's solo on a different version of the tune.  Importantly, FOR ME, Byrd recorded many records, particularly late in his career that were....well, let's just say, as Rok would say, that "left the farm".  A term that I frankly is rather kind; I would say a lot of those funk/disco records were simply jive.  Your own words about Byrd:

****Once I accepted the fact that it ain't jazz, I listened to it for what it is. While most of this new music is geared to someone much younger than me, I'm not so old that I done forgot what it's like to have wild hormones****

Not much of an endorsement for some of his "body of work".  I can't think of any Mitchell recordings as a leader that were as ji......er, that left the farm as much as some of Byrd's 😉

Ok, the Blakey thing:

O-10, with all due respect some of your comments are simply not focused enough to have a substantive dialogue about some of these topics; to be blunt, they are sometimes all over the place.  Example:

IT WASNT I WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT BLAKEY PLAYING BEHIND OR AHEAD OF THE BEAT.  Once again, it was YOU who said that, in reference to something you said someone else altogether said.  I have said only that Blakey's drumming sounds lazy sometimes and that I like a different style of drumming better; drumming which is more crisp and organized and with more forward motion.  As concerns Nica's Dream, I said that it was the choice of tempo, NOT NECESSARILY BLAKEY'S DRUMMING, that made the tune sound sleepy and was too slow (something you agreed with: "languid").  Still, if you want to know what is meant by playing ahead or behind the beat all you need to do is read some of my comments of about two weeks ago.  However, I will repeat myself:

Playing ahead or behind the beat applies mostly (not always) to players other than drummers since it is usually the drummer who has the main role in establishing the pulse (beat) in a jazz band.  In some bands the player most in control of the pulse can be the bass player and the drummer plays more TO the bass player's pulse.  Still, in some other bands it is more democratic and the rhythm section establishes the pulse together without anyone player having the upper hand.  Blakey, to my ears (especially when he plays brushes) tends to play in a style that is very relaxed and which doesn't propel the pulse as much as other drummers.  Hence my use of the term "lazy".  I prefer a drummer who plays more incisively and with a lighter touch and more forward momentum.  At the opposite end of Blakey's style is a drummer like Buddy Rich who played with an almost manic sense of forward motion; I dislike that as much as the lazy approach.  I love drummers like Max Roach, Tony Williams and Roy Haynes; crisp, light touch, lots of forward momentum; but, controlled.

"The beat" is the pulse that an ensemble establishes during a performace of a tune.  A horn player has a certain amount of latitude on the front side of "the beat" as well as on the backside and a little latitude is not perceived as behind or ahead of the beat, but as a stylistic choice to play in a relaxed fashion or in a rhythmically aggressive fashion.  At a certain point too much deviation from "the beat" established by the rhythm section is perceived as  obviously behind or ahead of the beat and COULD be considered objectionable:

Behind the beat:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Znm88X3BVSI

Ahead of the beat (Paquito's solo only):

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=C6lKkQzCntI

No, O-10, that may be what you feel; but it is not the case.  Why, then, do you ask the questions; if you don't want the answers?  I'll make you a deal, don't ask me questions directly and I won't give you any answers directly.  I am sincerely sorry if our interaction causes you to not have "fun"; that is certainly not my intention.

The "problem" can be boiled down to a couple of basic things, and this has been discussed (argued) before: Jazz and any other serious music is high art with a tremendous amount of very interesting "stuff" going on; it resists being kept only in the realm of "fun".  I think that your idea of "fun" in discussing jazz is, in part, to be able to postulate and present things in a manner that conveys a certain sense of "authority" and ignore much of this interesting stuff; and, then, you recoil and take matters very personally when there is disagreement.  The disagreement leads to attempts at discussions  and these "discussions" lead to the opening of many "cans or worms" (those pesky things called "facts").  Underneath all this is the basic conflict created by your stance that it is one's subjective impressions that tell the whole story and the stance that considers subjectivity as only part of the story.  I do have to say that I find irony in our recent discussions and your refusal to accept my subjective opinions while demanding answers to why I feel that way (Thomas' yodeling).  Lastly, when there is disagreement, there is a tendency to lace your comments with a certain amount of sarcasm and provocation.  This last thing is relatively unimportant as we are all, hopefully, big boys and girls, but this doesn't promote good dialogue.

So.... there, that was my analysis of the "problem".  Once again, what you may feel is another long-winded anti-fun comment.  From my perspective, if one can't identify a problem and see it for what it is there's no chance in hell that it will be solved.  And, I am truly interested in solving the problem because as I have said many times before, this is your thread and I respect and commend you for starting it.  As before, and in deference to you, if you want me to simply go away I will do so; just say the words.  In the meantime, I encourage you to return to your retrospective on Horace Silver; as Rok said, there is much work to do and I look forward to your comments.

Rok, I LOVED that clip. Had not heard that record and one of the reasons that I look forward to O-10’s retrospective; as much Silver as I have heard there’s a lot to catch up on. I think the title of this record is perfect timing for the recent squabbling; always good to keep one’s sense of humor. I find your comments interesting and I agree that Silver’s "loudest voice" is as a composer/band leader and, as individualistic as he was, less so as a player; just a few bars of that tune and one knows it’s a Silver composition. You’re right, Kisor went on to JALC and he sounds great on this record. Jimmy Green also sounds very good. To be frank, I am surprised how good both of these guys sound. Another testament to Wynton as a bandleader; he certainly knows how to pick them.

I am...lets just say..."intrigued" by your comment:

****It’s a sad indictment of modern Jazz that this was as good as anything else being played at the time it was released. You would have thought Silver would have been considered ’vintage’ by 2000.****

If we agree that this is good jazz, why the "indictment" of modern jazz if there is modern jazz as good as this (there is)? Moreover, much has been made on this thread about jazz "not needing to change". Here we have a great example of really good jazz in a more traditional hard-bop style and recorded in 1999. I don’t see the problem. I think the moral of the story is that "vintage" and "modern" can live side by side as long as the quality is good. Thanks for the clip and the introduction to the record; this is one I have to get. Speaking of vintage (very!) and "side by side":

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1oKBhSOjppc

****Sort of like Magic Johnson coming back into the NBA today and being MVP, leading scorer and average a triple double for the entire season. That would reflect badly on the current NBA players, or maybe, just reflect on the greatness of magic****

Good point and good analogy.  And as much as we may resist the simplicity of it, and as much as we have heard it, isn't it amazing how it always comes back to this simple comment?:

"There's only two kinds of music, good music and the other kind".  

Doesn't matter the period, style or genre; it either tells a good story or it doesn't.  

Batons:

Even before I opened the link I knew it was going to be of Gergiev and his infamous toothpick.  First of all, imo, and that of many many musicians, Gergiev is one of the greatest musicians on the planet; he is amazing.  I had the great pleasure of playing under him once performing Mussorgsky's "Pictures At An Exibition" and I can comfortably say it was possibly my most memorable musical experience ever.  The job of a conductor is far more than the waving of a baton.  Much of the work leading up to the performance happens in rehearsal and even conductors with less than ideal conducting technique can conduct a fabulous performance because of a particular talent in conveying to musicians his/her musical vision for a piece of music and this sometimes has little to do with the waving of the stick.  Some conductors don't use a baton at all and in the performance that I mentioned Gergiev didn't use a baton.  He is known to players as having a very idiosyncratic conducting technique; especially this little "shake" that he makes with his hand which can be maddening since it can give "false cues".  You mentioned "magic":

Some conductors simply have "the magic" to convey what they want from players and are able to establish a musical performance-relationship in a way that is hard to describe; sometimes they can put their arms down altogether and still convey a great sense of pulse with their bodies; the magic.  The toothpick:

Think about it for a moment.  If a player sees a conducting pattern that is, say, three feet wide in any direction, vs one which is only a couple of inches wide (toothpick), with which is the "margin for error" greater?  A smaller beat pattern is more concise, lets the player see exactly where the beat is and creates a potentially more concentrated rhythmic pulse; which is what the opening of Bolero is all about.  I will admit that his use of the toothpick is a bit extreme, but I believe that is his reasoning.  Of course, with certain music ("Pictures") or parts of a certain piece, the toothpick won't work; notice how in Bolero, as the piece progresses, his pattern gets larger and the fact that he is still holding the toothpick is pretty irrelevant.

Sorry, can't do.  Attempts at dialogue with you, O-10, are utterly pointless.  In my opinion you have shown that your intentions are not good.  Either you deliberately distort what has been said or you are incapable of understanding.  Either way, pointless. 

****I think it's foolish to get in a who is the best argument****

Your best comment in quite some time.

****, but I seem to get drawn into them sometime. ****

Correction, you don't get drawn into them, you create them.  

Fabulous! Thank you for that, Alex. How can music that documents the beginnings of everything that’s talked about on this thread be "off topic"? It IS the topic. To understand and appreciate the music of that period is the way to best understand and appreciate the music of later periods. Have never heard Armstrong’s beautiful sound and fantastic rhythmic verve so clearly. Also never heard as clearly details like the way that the saxophone section match each other’s vibrato to create that wonderful sound like one instrument instead of three or four; practically a lost art. Important stuff. Thanks again.

MY favorite Grand Poobah; I accept the title:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ATIkuOdDPnA

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9CgNwBh8vOY

Rok, Peter Crosby is a nobody who posted that rant in his personal blog. His ill-informed opinions reveal a lack of depth of knowledge and feeling for what the music is really all about, and the attempt at an "authoritative" style in his writing cannot make up for the shallowness. Sounds familiar.

For me, the proof of my contention is demonstrated most obviously in two items in his writing: one, some would dismiss as a simple oversight; but, for me, is a sign of lack of attention to detail which will inevitably be demonstrated in the thought process. One would think that anyone who devotes so much energy to putting down Wynton would know the how to spell his brother Branford’s name. The other is far more important:

****Sadly, aside from Arturo Sandoval, I have found few living horn players who can play at the level of past jazz trumpet greats like Lee Morgan, Blue Mitchell, Clifford Brown, Chet Baker, or Fats Navarro.****

Arturo Sandoval ?! Is he kidding? I don’t consider Wynton to be one of the great jazz trumpet players and have said so before; but he can play and is a brilliant trumpeter (among other things). But, let’s try and keep things in perspective folks. Sandoval ?! First, he rants against Wynton’s supposed "overplaying"; but, Sandoval? Also a very accomplished trumpet player (but without Wynton’s technical finesse), but who’s playing is usually tasteless and bombastic while leaning on his amazing technique and taking every opportunity to show off his super-high chops even when it’s completely inappropriate musically. One of the least impressive of the top current jazz trumpet players; unless one likes bombast.

The guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about, but he thinks very highly of himself. A not uncommon problem. I was impressed, however, that he mentioned Blue Mitchell as one of the greats 😉

For the opposite of bombastic trumpet playing (iow, tastefully inventive, warm, inviting) check out Tom Harrell on this, one of my favorite later Silver recordings (apart from some questionable intonation from the flutes).  Bob Berg on tenor is his usual fierce self, always on the verge of going over the top for me; but not quite:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLC87B3CDD6C58EDB5&params=OAFIAVgB&v=HOLwhoITseI&mode=N...

There is something in psychology referred to as "projection". Several times over the last several pages of this thread I have had that word on the tip of my tongue because it is what I have felt the OP often did in his attempts at rebuttals of my opinions and comments. I did not use the word because I felt it would be too provocative. I guess that in my mind things have reached a new low in the civility scale so as to make the use of that word not seem as inappropriate; how unfortunate. I have absolutely no problem with rebuttals of my opinions; I welcome them. What I do have a problem with is the gratuitous and thoughtless "jabs" that are so clearly a simple and deliberate need to be contrarian so as to "show" some sense of "authority", and that unfortunately hamper his own thread’s potential. That is the extent of my "having trouble" with it; beyond that, I respect anyone’s desire to come across as idiotic. Two observations that are emblematic of this constant conflic (and, I point them out again only in the hope that when an issue is recognized it may be resolved):

The "Grand Poobah" comment: I have made it very clear that I have no interest in being considered any such thing, and from my point of view, the idea that I would feel "threatened" by a challenge to that supposed mantel is, well.....I will let the substance of my comments about music do the rest of the explaining. However, re "projection": to me it’s obvious who’s slide show is making the most "noise". Then there is the issue of substance (or lack of):

I made two comments, respectively, about two things that I thought were fatal flaws in the Crosby article. One, I conceded that it was, while important to me (spelling), pretty insignificant overall; the other, very significant and potentially the subject of an interesting exchange of ideas. Do I need to point out which of my two comments received commentary?

Speaking of aristocracy, money and Grand Poobahs; the real Grand Poobah of Jazz:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8nppTSY-Rs

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k341z3dsXy4

Wait, wait, wait! How could I be so mistaken? Rok, you may not have known it, but YOU are the Grand Poobah of Jazz 😎

I agree "Silver n Percussion" was probably not one of his best (certainly not one of my favorites) and that his very "best" was probably before that date. However, I think a cutoff date of 1978 might be a little premature. Personally, I wouldn’t want to ignore everything after that date. Imo, Silver was one of those rare musicians who deserved a listen to everything he did. Some really good stuff after 1978 like:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lHUkX1cfDBk

Love Clark Terry, talk about sense of humor.

Here’s "Silver’s Serenade". Classic Silver composition. Man, the guy could write! And always with his personal stamp all over it. Blue Mitchell is great as usual. O-10, listen to Gene Taylor on brushes; very Art Blakey-like. Very laid back and not particularly propulsive; a particular style, that’s all, and creates a certain feel. Great tune.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ROht6SP6JdM

If anybody thinks that he's making up that stuff about the rain dance, you would be very mistaken.  The reason O-10 and I argue so much is that he and I know each other from way back.  I am the other musician friend; the one who did practice that summer (constantly) and I was there on that desert trip.  I have had incriminating evidence of his dancing all these years and have threatened to reveal it on several occasions.  The "Carwash" post is simply too much to take.  Here is O-10 doing his raindance:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JgZstbXnxaY

Spencer, a little more info please; very intrigued. Luddite that I am: high rez? Thanks!

****I'm going to put the CD in, and hear what it sounds like.****

What does it sound like?

Grant Green was a great jazz guitarist and I really like many of his recordings.  However, it would be foolish to think that every player can play in every style equally well; few can.  Personally, I don't feel that Grant Green's playing in "soul-jazz", "funk", "whatever one wants to call it" style is on the same level as that of the two other guitarists mentioned, George Benson and Wes Montgomery.  That's not to say that his efforts in that style were not good; simply that they weren't as convincing as those of other players playing that style.  I don't know why Blue Note didn't release some of his records after recording them, but I can surmise:

Grant Green's "His Majesty King Funk" was, in fact, released the same year that it was recorded (on lp of course).  This was the same time period that George Benson was making quite a name for himself with Brother Jack McDuff and his own "Cookbook".  It's a good record and as Alex points out has some catchy tunes.  But it's not a great record, regardless of style, and it has some problems; some of which have nothing to do with Green.  The rhythm section is not as tight as others in that style and they sound a little sloppy, and Harold Vick on tenor was a bad choice imo, sounding weak and unconvincing.  This record is on Verve and I have not heard the Blue Note recordings that O-10 refers to, but if this Verve recording is any indication of what some of those Blue Notes are like, I can see the powers that be at Blue Note deciding that those records simply couldn't compete in the marketplace with records and younger players like this:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PL911F2BE54808509A&params=OAFIAVgL&v=6ILWPfmIvys&mode=N...

To me, this is simply better playing in the funk/soul-jazz style, all the way around (George Benson was 21!):

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=J-_ccqV-AdU

Well said, Acman3.

Alex, one of my favorite tenor players (The Little a Giant); will never forget hearing him live at the Village Vanguard back in the ’80s. I listened to your clips while I wrote my previous posts and here my impressions of the trumpet player; you have my word that I did not "peak":

Nice player with a very nice time feel with a vocabulary not quite as wide as some of other players. I would say he listened to a lot of Lee Morgan as he has a similar swagger in his time feel. Reminded me of a player you posted previously and I couldn’t remember his name. In fairness, since you posed a challenge to identify the player, I suspected that it may be one of the "forgotten ones". Please keep in kind that, for better or worse, as a musician I listen for certain things that are telltale and may not be important to other listeners (nor should they necessarily be). Here’s why he reminded me of that other player: This trumpet player plays consistently a little flat in pitch and is what brass players call a little "fracky"; his note attacks are not always the cleanest. Listen to the unison lines with the tenor saxophone in "Low Gravy" (particularly at the end of the tune); intonation is not that great. Still, very nice player and I really like his time feel. My comments may seem more critical that they are meant to be, but you did ask 😎

I think one of the biggest issues in these disputes, and one which applies to the music itself in a big way, is the absence of nuance. Iow, we tend to deal with descriptions of likes, dislikes, players’ styles, etc. in very wide gradations; instead of recognizing that there can be far more levels between simple "like" and "dislike", "good" and "bad"; and, certainly between "very good" and "one of the best". Example: I don’t recall anyone "trashing" the Bey Sisters. Not particularly like, yes; but, "trash"?

Excellent advise to not take it personally.

O-10, I expected a contentious rebuttal to my comments from you; or, at least, one with an "edge".  I will not get into another pointless and unpleasant dispute about a player that you obviously have a personal affinity for and, as a result, cannot deal with anything other than glowing commentary.  You missed the thrust of my comments which have everything to do with Blue Note and the comments by Rok about the business interests of record labels and how they make decisions on what to release and when.  The obvious rebuttal to your comment "that record has absolutely nothing to do with BN" is: then why did you, after talking about that record and quoting it's liner notes, go on a rant about BN?  Once again, I wished that instead of knee jerk reactions there would be discussion about the SUBSTANCE of comments.  Bottom line for me is stated very well by the very liner notes you quote, no conspiracy theory and no "getting screwed" by a record label:

****(Grant Green was) Overshadowed by such virtuosos as, first, Wes Montgomery, and later George Benson, ****

End of story.

Alex, I don't disagree with anything you wrote; except the implication that I was saying otherwise about chronology.  I know you are not a fan of Benson, but he was not "my pick" as concerns this discussion; he was mentioned by the writer in the liner notes that O-10 quoted as one of the players that "overshadowed" Green.  

"Bugaloo Jones": New to me.  VERY NICE!  Love his sound and feel.  Very funky.  Fabulous!  Thanks for those clips; and they make my point about players' ability to play in a certain style.  This is definitely his musical home turf and he does it on a level that, imo, Grant Green does not.  What I hear in Jones' playing is an understanding of the feel of "rock and roll" which was, obviously, a force to contend with at the time and something that would have an impact on a player's appeal.  I don't know much about his playing, but I also don't hear much that tells me he could play in other styles (straight ahead jazz) as well.

What made Benson special was his rare ability to play credibly in any style, his virtuosity, he can sing; and, as concerns "marketability" and whether we like or not, he looks good.  We can criticize the reasons that record labels have for promoting certain artists more than others all we want, but I think we should always remember that if a label does not succeed NO ONE benefits.

****Probably the ’jazz scene’ was never so pure, or it was bigger than the audience, so there was no big enough market to sustain all that. I guess that is one of the reasons that contributed to change in styles (for worst,imho) in years to come.****

Very true.  Except, imho, the "for worst" part; but, only inasmuch as it is, as always, an inevitable change.  This is the part that I think is often missed about the changes in jazz, music in general, and art as a whole.  It HAS to change and it WILL change.  As always, it all reflects the changing cultural climate; and how we each feel about that change is a reflection of who we are as individuals.  This is true for artists as well as listeners.  That is why artists seldom do their best work late in their careers; they have a voice or style that often does not stay as relevant in a changing social climate.  It is the rare artist who can ride that wave of change with consistently high quality music.  

Rok, I do declare ☺️, I have been touting the Breckers here (especially Michael) for a long time. I seem to recall the designation of.....well, you know....rhymes with bread baker. I am glad that you have come around. Michael in my opinion was, as well as being a great contemporary jazz player and extremely influential, probably the greatest saxophone virtuoso that ever lived.  Will have more to say later.

Alex, thanks for your evenhanded response; as always.  Will comment on Clifford later when I have more time.  I will say , however, that I have never heard anything by Clifford Brown that I didn't like.

O-10, you are not thinking "globally" enough.  Green recorded several records for BN around and after the time that the Verve record was released.  I was making a comment about the Verve record being indicative of Grant's playing relative to what was going on in the music scene as a whole  (including BN) and why that may have affected his relationship with BN.  I can't be any clearer than that.  Of course, if one is coming from a viewpoint that business interests are always trying to screw the artist, then its more difficult to see the relationship.  

Re my response to Acman3: it could not be clearer, please take it at face value.

O-10, remember your comment about my supposed feeling that everything you say has to do with me? Now, remember that word "projection"? Now, again, remember that word that you used, with unfounded indignation, describing what you thought I (and another esteemed aficionado who I will not include in this bs) felt that you were? You know.....that word that rhymes with "boron"? I am saddened to have to report that I believe you were correct in using that word.

****
frogman
2,653 posts
04-17-2016 3:06pm

(Alex, thanks for your evenhanded response; as always). Will comment on Clifford later when I have more time. (I will say , however, that I have never heard anything by Clifford Brown that I didn’t like).****

Get a life, man.

Rok, will comment on those great Silver clips shortly.  Thanks for keeping the Silver flame alive.

Rok, loved the clips from "The Jodi Grind"; especially "Grease Piece". I was not familiar with this record and the more that Silver is discussed, the more respect that I have for him. What a great composer! Tunes that are interesting, catchy and always bear his stamp all over them; "Grease Piece" is no exception. I find Silver’s playing interesting on this cut in that it reminds me a little bit of McCoy Tyner (!); had never heard that in Silver’s playing before and perhaps he was influenced by the presence of Woody Shaw on the date with his harmonic approach which, up to that point in time, was more modern than many of the players that Silver had had in his band previously. Shaw played more angularly and harmonically "outside". And Walter Benton! Talk about raw and soulful; reminds me a little of Bennie Maupin. Whatever happened to him? Will have to look for recordings of his stuff.

"Pursuit Of The 27th Man" is kind of a legendary record for young saxophone players. It was a record that gave the Breckers (especially Michael) some real jazz cred; being that he, unlike many of the older players who transitioned to "fusion", "jazz-rock" or "whatever", began his career in those genres while also playing straight-ahead jazz. It took some time for the purists to take him seriously as a jazz player and the incredible musician that he was. You’re right about the rhythmic interplay between piano and vibes; beautiful stuff!

Thanks for the clips.

In a recent post, Alex made what I think is an extremely important comment and one that I have made in one way or another several times:

****Also I feel that music is more than craft, but have enough sense to recognise that part as very important too.****

The comment was made re George Benson and Grant Green and there is much more in that comment than meets the eye. Along with the appreciation of craft are two cosiderations that I think are very important: when and how to recognize that impressive "craft" is trying to make up for lack of substance (feeling) and the player is not saying anything; and (2) the possible danger in prematurely judging impressive craft as meaning that there is no substance. Tricky stuff which goes to the heart of much of what gets discussed here , sometimes in a contentious way, and which also goes to who we each are as individual listeners with our own likes and dislikes. Of course, our own likes and dislikes have much to do with our willingness to be both open minded and humble in how we judge the music and may not say much about the true quality of any music.

I posted this once before. Amazing craft, and also a great deal deal of substance and feeling; IF we understand the language (post-Coltrane) he’s speaking in (imo). As Rok said, this guy was the real deal:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ns02jzH8Ccw

Alex, I promised you some comments re "Best Coast Jazz".  As I said before, I don't think I have ever heard anything by Clifford Brown that I didn't like.  I have and love his recordings with Max Roach and "C B With Strings" has always been one of my very favorite ballads records.  It is remarkable that eventhough he tragically died at the age pf 25(!) he was able to achieve such a high level of musicianship and be so influential.  "Best Coast Jazz" is a terrific record, clearly in a bebop bag and has the stamp of Charlie Parker's vocabulary all over it; particularly (no surprise) in the case of the two alto players, but with a somewhat lighter rhythmic touch and softer instrumental tones typical of West Coast players.  I think the tenor player Walter Benton sounds less committed to the bebop idiom and his connection to the older "swing" style can be heard in his tone, inflections and less complete command of the more complex bebop harmonies.  Clifford is brilliant as always.  Few players can "tell a story" the way that Clifford could:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLi8BquRmKA_n4umKPYQFIWlVzineIM9b2&v=uAl6Sro_OtI

Your clip was a bit of a "blast from the past" for me since one of the alto players, Herb Geller, was the featured alto player on the very first jazz record I bought at the age 13, Maynard Ferguson's "McArthur Park"; great alto player.  The other alto player, Joe Maini, definitely belongs on your list of "forgotten ones".  Fantastic West Coast player who was greatly admired during his years in the LA scene, but sadly led a tragic life.  Interesting, if sad, story:

http://www.jazzwax.com/2010/06/the-truth-about-joe-mainis-death.html

Thanks for the Clifford Clip.

One of the things that I like about Silver is that even in photos he seems to be, as my wife likes to say, "a good egg".

Speaking of Sinatra, George Benson and the Breckers.  Check out the band's personnel list; amazing!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iz3yk_BgGDc