O-10, yes, a flat fee was often the case for players without a lot of clout. Some players were "taken advantage of"; some let themselves be taken advantage of.
****they seem to prefer "junkys"****.
Sorry, O-10, but that has got to be one of the most cynical comments. Junkies tend to not show up to jobs on time; studio time is very expensive. |
You are wise to not draw any conclusions from one article, Alex. I would preface my comments (opinions) by pointing out that it was I who first mentioned Tina Brooks on this thread way back when, and then again more recently as one of the players deserving more recognition; one of the exceptions to my belief that "there is usually a reason why". It is important to remember that record labels, even great and art-sensitive ones like BN, are a business. As a business they have to consider things like whether there is room in their catalogue for one more hard-bop tenor player. All sentimentality and opinion of the article's author aside, as good as he was, Tina Brooks was not the unique and influential voice that (of the other mentioned tenor players) Wayne Shorter and Joe Henderson was; or Lee Morgan for that matter. I put him in the same broad stylistic "shelf" as Hank Mobley; but, not quite on the same level imo. And even if he was arguably on the same level as Mobley, they already had Mobley. IMO, as far as unique and influential voices go, if Shorter and Henderson are level A+ players and Mobley an A, Tina Brooks was an A- or B+. Obviously just my opinion, but that is the kind of thing that labels and producers have to consider. Add to that the insinuated personality issues and it's possible to see why things went the way they did for Brooks. A shame, but I don't believe, based on what I know of the story that there is anything sinister involved. Why would they release his work decades later? Different economic and artistic climate and fewer big jazz record labels than decades earlier. Great player. |
As is usually the case, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Heads of jazz record labels tend to indeed be jazz lovers. Why else would someone start a jazz record label? Plenty of better and easier ways for entrepreneurs to make money. I don't know if they love money more than the music, but I do know that to run a viable business of any kind one has to make money; otherwise, you don't help anyone.
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From the very Wiki article you site:
++++++++++++
Lion first heard jazz as a young boy in Berlin. He settled in New York in 1937, and shortly after the first From Spirituals to Swing concert, recorded pianists Albert Ammons and Meade Lux Lewis in 1939 during a one-day session in a rented studio. The Blue Note label initially consisted of Lion and Max Margulis, a communist writer who funded the project. The label's first releases were traditional "hot" jazz and boogie woogie, and the label's first hit was a performance of "Summertime" by soprano saxophonist Sidney Bechet, which Bechet had been unable to record for the established companies. Musicians were supplied with alcoholic refreshments, and recorded in the early hours of the morning after their evening's work in clubs and bars had finished. The label soon became known for treating musicians uncommonly well - setting up recording sessions at congenial times, and allowing the artists to be involved in all aspects of the record's production.
+++++++++++
Kindly explain to me how this goes counter to my contention that the founder Lion was a jazz lover. Moreover, that, at least this particular label (BN), treated their musicians well. So, not only does jazz need "saving" now, but it needed saving back then. I get it 🙄 |
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Alex, don't change your romantic perspective on the Blue Note label. It was founded as a true labor of love and, as you know, produced some of the greatest music ever. I am always mystified by what it is about human nature that causes some to be so cynical and see only the negative in certain things, even the music they claim to love. Great reading about Alfred Lion that clearly shows he was a jazz lover and treated his musicians well: http://www.immigrantentrepreneurship.org/entry.php?rec=112 |
O-10, re Previn. There must be a couple hundred clips of Previn on |
You're welcome, O-10. Jeez! |
O-10, re Previn (and the 3/20 post):
There must be a couple hundred clips of Previn on YouTube, you write this:
****Since I have jazz by Andre Previn, I tried to find some classical music by him, but this is all I found.****
and, you post the clip I commented on. Certainly appears that you consider it classical. I don’t think nor did I state that you are MOWRON. It is clear, however, that you prefer, as I said before, to focus on the negative and stay on the dark side. Sorry, I’m not playing.
Hey, btw, one out of three ain’t too bad. Now you know you like John Adams; how about that! Also, are we talking about Previn the classical composer or Previn the classical conductor? |
O-10, I thought you were moving on; I guess not. I appreciate your passion about this topic and I appreciate passion about any relevant topic even when its misguided. I was not "evading" anything, but simply trying to stay on the subject of music. Moreover, as I have pointed out several times before there is no need for you to be so antagonistic; it certainly will not promote good dialogue. I watched your clip on the heroin epidemic and I must say I agree with every word that Rok wrote in his comments about it. For me, it all boils down to two words: personal responsibility or the lack thereof. There are always two general points of views or attitudes about this sort of thing: 1. The attitude that holds on to the idea that all of society's ills (including those of the music business) are something that are being perpetrated on its citizens and that promotes the mindset that the citizen is owed a solution to every problem, and 2. The attitude that seeks to uplift and increase awareness through personal responsibility as much as possible and promotes the mindset of looking inward to find the answer to one's problems. For crying out loud, if the first time the mother in that video noticed that her daughter had a problem was when she actually saw her shooting heroin, she wasn't paying nearly enough attention to her daughter. The reason that there is a heroin "epidemic" today is not that it is cheap and kept cheap by diabolical pushers or business interests, it is because more and more people are desperate to find a way to fill the void in themselves caused by the absence of family unity and spirituality ( and real music?) in their lives; the absence of a sense of purpose caused by a society that promotes the thinking that we are entitled to more and more of what previously was our individual responsibility to attain. Going back to music: acknowledging the very real issues around race that many of our music heroes had to sadly endure, the truth is that many of them, as is the case today, were their own worst enemies and led lifestyles that were not conducive to stable lives. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OjFxEwyPkncProbably the greatest singer to ever live; imo, of course: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QzRS2HKmL1s |
Alex, as always, very thoughtful post. We are in agreement. The "establishment" usually has a hand in everything; and there will always be many many "everythings" that a person has to contend with. My point is that by focusing on personal responsibility and not on dependence on the establishment is the way for the individual to have the best chance of avoiding the problem. There is a conspiratorial-thinking idea among very conservative groups in this country that feels that the "establishment" has an agenda in the recent move towards the legalization of marijuana in order to keep the populace stoned and incapable of clear thinking. Whether it is true or not is not as important as the fact that by being (and raising) the type of person that will not fall prey to it is the best antidote. Regards.
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Well, gee, O-10, thanks so much for the kind words. Why you are intent on being unpleasant and disagreeable is a mystery to me. Pray tell, just what is "dumb" about what I commented on? I was responding to a comment from Alex about drug use in general, so what exactly is "dumb" about commenting on a related issue concerning marijuana use? Don’t flatter yourself thinking that I would bother "making" anything of what, apparently, you think are your many "mistakes". The problem here is that instead of using this forum as a way to discuss music and other issues you are after some sort of validation. Now, let’s have some fun and talk about dumb comments (yes, it’s come to this 😣) about a very sad topic: Average cost of one dose of heroin: $15-20 (a serious habit: $150-200/day) Average cost of a six pack of Budweiser in my area: about $7-8 Average cost of one marijuana joint: about $2-3 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Lj3bCXViNNM |
Alex, thanks for the Bobby Hutcherson clip. In answer to the question of why it wasn’t released sooner, apparently the producer Cuscuna felt, at first, that it was a disappointing session. Why? Who knows; but nothing diabolical or conspiratorial. This is not a criticism at all, but once again the influence of Miles’ "Kind Of Blue" shines through. Recorded a couple of years after KOB, I can easily imagine this tune on that record; VERY similar vibe (pun intended 😉).
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****I notice you did not limit or put him a box,**** On purpose. Not only because he was, as you point out, much more than a blues and R&B singer, but I can't think of any singer in ANY genre that could sing more deeply from the heart than Ray; unbelievable sense of time and phrasing. Truly a genius. Nice clips of Brooks as sideman. I particularly like the Freddie Hubbard clip. One of my favorite records and hard to believe that Freddie was 21(!) when he recorded it. I think Brooks rose to the occasion and was inspired by the the high level of players on that session; his best playing of the three clips. McCoy sounds great, and so....un-McCoy and straight ahead. He joined Trane that very year and his style went in a very different direction. Speaking of Trane. I posted one of these a long time ago. Gotta love YouTube; two of my favorite clips ever. Trane and Getz. Talk about contrasting styles; both great and so different. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pc6CWfBgIt8https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=beCGdmrP8Xc |
Other versions of "Step Lightly"; great tune written by Joe Henderson. This one is more uptempo than Hutcherson's and as a result has a little less of the very relaxed and introspective KOB vibe. It too wasn't relesed for years after it was recorded (1963), it was nevertheless released much sooner (1980). Blue Mitchell sounds fabulous!: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WUmG-7G20eEThe composer himself leading his big band on an arrangement of the tune. Notice that the tempo is more relaxed and closer to the tempo on the Hutcherson version, but still not quite as relaxed. Right in between the tempos of the other two versions. As is often said, the truth is usually somewhere in the middle: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L6HfJLltdQgFor anyone interested, the Hutcherson version clocks in @ 114 bpm on the metronome, the Mitchell @ 118 and the Henderson @ 116 (right in the middle). May seem like small differences, but they can completely change the vibe of a performance. |
Great stuff, Chazro. The subject of Mazanero came up recently re his beautiful song "Esta Tarde Vi Llover". Paquito kills me...Tarogato!?! Hungarian instrument; think wooden soprano saxophone. Sounds beautiful on it; rich and warm sound. Manzanero wrote some beautiful songs and his singing sometimes makes me think of a Latin Jimmy Scott. Thanks! |
A little while ago, the question was asked whether the comments and facial expressions of approval by players directed at a soloist are sincere. In the case of JALC (and most others) they absolutely are. Even more so, there is no better sign of approval as when a soloist "picks up" where the previous soloist "left off". Notice how on "Señor Blues", Rampkin (trumpet) starts his solo (@ 4:17) with EXACTLY the same musical figure as the one that Goines (sop sax) ends his solo with, and then develops his solo with that melodic idea; classic motivic development improvisation. This may seem "academic", but is what great jazz players do; always listening and reacting to what goes on around them. Great band, great tune and nice arrangement (although I think Ted Nash is the best arranger in the band).
Heir apparent? Maybe. Can’t imagine JALC without Wynton who is not that much older than most of those guys ’though, and I’m sure LC would do anything to keep him.
Speaking of Joe Henderson, the second tune on the clip is Joe's tune "Recorda me", arranged by Ted Nash. Amazing amount of talent in that band. |
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Alex, nice clips of Roach. Nice player and, as you quote, a more subtle style than some of his contemporaries. Of course, a cynic might say "a less exciting style than....". I wouldn't. I think he is an intelligent player who doesn't have the amazing technical chops and excitement of someone like Jimmy Smith, but has a great feel and uses what he technique he does have to its fullest and to good effect. Kenny Burrell sounds fantastic, but I think Roach and his rhythm section really rise to the occasion when they have Hank Mobley and Blue Mitchell in the front line; their playing gets kicked up a notch as a result.
Nice clips, thanks!
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Rok, Nancy Wilson/Cannonball. Timeless indeed. Probably one of my ten favorite records of all time and, if I recall, on my list way back when I first responded to this thread. Beautiful record. One of the things that I think make this record so special is that both Wilson and Cannonball are/were the type of performers who exude a positive and "up" vibe; no brooding introspection.
And Dorham. What can one say? Great player and great record. I think you have a soft spot for trumpet players? Wonder why? 😍
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****Henceforth and forevermore, I will never again change the subject; the subject is jazz. ****
O-10, tsk, tak, tsk! Please stop, you're embarrassing yourself. Moreover, you make it so easy to prove you wrong....again.
++++And of course, a single dose of heroin might be more accurately compared with the price of a single cigarette, in which case the legal substance is still much cheaper. I'll leave that debate to all of you.++++
Where, in our previous and unfortunate "discussion", was the price compared to cigarettes? In other words, so what? Not to mention that this proves how stats can always be manipulated to buttress one's point of view. Sure, cheaper than cigarettes, but a pack of cigarettes is twenty doses of drug; vs. a single dose of the other drug
++++A bindle (or bag or single dose) of heroin costs about $10++++
Isn't that exactly what I previously said?
Now, a couple of observations to hopefully help keep this silliness from continuing to happen:
You could, of course, have said something like: "Hey, frogman, I came across these articles; what do you think?" No, you, as usual, resort to antagonism. Even more importantly, there have been several posts recently of some really good music, but instead you choose to go back to this silliness. I feel like I'm playing shrink sometimes, but....really?
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Acman3, loved the Nat Cole clip. He was a class act. What a voice, and great piano player. Became famous as a singer and people forget he made his rep first as a jazz piano player, and a good one. Although not on the level of Oscar Peterson; few were. Peterson was an amazing virtuoso; as Rok said, one of the greatest. Some might say the greatest. Great sense of clarity in the way he played; never any ambiguity about what he was trying to do. Great clips. On the subject of organists. The organ/jazz connection came from the church. A child prodigy and very soulful dude; one of my favorites: https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLXnx1wN_qUG9xpQi7SRCzJ0hmwEix0dZE¶ms=OAFIAVgD&v=hwqFUx... |
"The trouble with the people on this planet is they refuse to think, they refuse to believe anything except what they know”
- Sun Ra, Prophetika Book One
"Art does not begin with imitation, but with discipline."- Sun Ra
"Those who will not dance will have to be shot” - Sun Ra
😳 |
Randy Weston’s "Little Niles" has become a kind of modern jazz standard. Beautiful and very interesring tune in 3/4 that lends itself well to different approaches in interpretation. Comparing an instrumental version to a vocal version is not really a fair comparison for me and I couldn’t begin to pick a "favorite" between the two. Weston’s version of his own tune is wonderful with a subtle underlying Latin feel and some of the best playing by Cecil Payne that I have heard (not my favorite baritone player, but perfect for this setting). Abby Lincoln sounds sublime singing this tune and the slower tempo and more subtle approach give the tune a Kurt Weill flavor. Art Farmer interjects some tasty touches on flugelhorn as does Benny Golson on tenor. Great stuff! Although I would be hard pressed to pick a favorite between Weston’s and this other instrumental version, for me, a more relevant comparison might be to: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ibLAar4BafEAbbey Lincoln singing Kurt Weill, and one of my very favorite songs and favorite lyrics: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wwV01ddvLtoHappy Easter to all! |
calvinj, thank you for the introduction to Tsuyosi Yamamoto; I was not familiar with this player. ****Tell me what you think everyone.**** Some may balk at this idea, but in my opinion, because jazz is a uniquely American creation, jazz players of a different nationality will inevitably bring their own cultural flavor to the music. This is certainly not to say that there aren’t very good non-American jazz players; quite the contrary. However, in my opinion, the best non-American jazz players don’t try to sound "American", but instead embrace the broader spirit of jazz; freedom of self-expression and creativity while embracing their own unique cultural flavor. I’m not sure Yamamoto accomplishes this. From a technical standpoint, Yamamoto is clearly well versed in the language of jazz. He favors the highest registers of the piano keyboard. His time feel is not always consistently relaxed and there is a sense of "rushing" through the music at times; especially when he, as he is prone to do, repeats a single note several times. His attack is a bit "hard" at times, going back and forth between deliberate and obvious "delicate" attack of notes and hard percussive attacks. From a stylistic standpoint, I find his playing most convincing when he is NOT playing the blues and plays standards like "I’m A fool To Want You". When he plays the blues, and in keeping with my previous comments about not trying to sound "American", his playing is full of blues cliches. The main feeling I am left with is that he sounds pretty good at any five seconds in time, but there is no sense of "the big picture" of a solo. A great player always gives the listener a convincing sense that the solo is going somewhere, of shape, and that one "lick" is somehow and logically connected to the one that came before it and the one the follows. When I listen to Yamamoto playing the blues it sounds like a bunch of unconnected blues licks giving the music a strangely static feeling; like it’s not going anywhere. Glad to have been introduced to his playing; but I think I’ll pass. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ax4HFrdwm50https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka8GEJ_ed04 |
A good attempt at a Donald Byrd retrospective recently. His most creative period was conspicuously given short shrift, imo. As Rok points out, he strayed off the jazz reservation quite often. Most of his work during his more "commercial" period doesn’t do it for me, and the stuff bordering on "disco" I find to be kinda lame and was considered at the time and by many hardcore jazz fans to be "selling out". I will leave the validity of that criticism to others as this was a crticism directed at many of the players that went in that direction (think CTI) and the period did produce some interesting projects. I do think that this thread’s "jazz police" is showing a kinder, gentler side 😌; a good thing, I think. What is interesting about that period of Byrd’s, as O-10 points out, is the apparent influence he had on Herbie Hancock; something that wasn’t clear to me previously. I do think that Herbie went on to do far more interesting and sophisticated things in the jazz/funk vein (Headhunters). For me, the very best work by Byrd was connected to his affiliation to the great Pepper Adams; and this work was squarely in a more traditional or straight-ahead bag; both as sideman and as leader: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HCPv54Js3akhttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YKyMVrIvKfEhttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xNk3qtzNM_shttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Y23YPy-8o7cThis last clip relates to Roy Hargrove. The best test of a jazz player’s mettle is the ballad or the slow blues; iow, music in which "high energy" can’t be used to hide behind and the player’s ability and creativity is laid bare. I like Hargrove and think he is a very good player. He has been discussed before and my contention has always been that his place in the pantheon is pretty much where it belongs; he is very good, but not of the caliber of a Donald Byrd. The second tune in the Hargrove video is a ballad and the contrast between what he and Byrd can do is, for me, pretty obvious. Even more obvious is how the young tenor player Sanchez sounds good when he plays fast and furious, but falls flat when he tries and play simple figures. Perhaps time and maturity will help. Byrd and "Stardust": https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cdrypHFVq8A |
Byrd sounds superb on "Here Am I". Great cut and great composition. One of the things that should be mentioned is Byrd’s beautiful tone on the trumpet. He was a really great trumpet player from a technical standpoint whose tone didn’t get fuzzy when he played softly. I love the clarity of his tone with just the right amount (for me) of brightness. One gets the sense that he could play in the stratosphere if he wanted to (not all trumpet players can) but refused to resort to gimmicky playing and gratuitous "high energy". Because of this restraint in his playing I find some of his genre choices later in his career especially curious. |
Harper Bros.: I liked "Remembrance" A LOT; really great composition and equally great playing. I liked "Artistry" less so. Great trumpet playing and I’m really impressed by this player. I frankly find him to be a more interesting player than Hargrove; but that composition ("Artistry") is a little weak, imo. I think the answer to the question of why these guys didn’t last is, for me, summarized by these two tunes: a bit inconsistent and, by way of example, how many times can he quote "A Night In Tunisia" in a single solo? I counted about half a dozen. Don’t be so friggin’ obvious! (Or, maybe he doesn’t dance as well as Hargrove ☺️) And this (minus the crack about dancing) is, I think, emblematic of the major problem:
We can debate the validity of this kind of thinking till we’re blue in the face, but I am left with the question: Why? When we have so much classic and superior hard bop to listen to? I think this writer pretty much sums it up:
Artist Biography by Scott Yanow
+++One of the most hyped jazz groups of the late ’80s, the Harper Brothers (co-led by drummer Winard Harper and trumpeter Philip Harper) symbolized what was right and wrong about the "Young Lions" movement. The musicianship in this hard bop unit was excellent and the young players respected their elders, but strong originality was lacking (they were largely revisiting the past) and the Harper Brothers received an excess of publicity at the expense of more innovative players. Still, during its five years, the group produced four enjoyable bop albums for Verve, and its sidemen (altoist Justin Robinson, tenors Javon Jackson and Walter Blanding, pianists Stephen Scott and Kevin Hays, and bassists Michael Bowie and Nedra Wheeler, among them) all had strong starts to their career. Both Winard and Philip Harper have grown musically since the band’s breakup.+++
Speaking of Hargrove (again): Watched to the "Crisol" video again and confirmed my initial reaction re the soloists. I find Sherman Irby to be the best soloist in that band and confirms why Wynton snatched him up. Very "in the pocket" playing and I love his use of space (silence) in his solos. He doesn’t feel the need to fill up every second with lots of notes and practiced licks and there’s a sense that he is really "developing" a solo . Great player!
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"In the pocket" is an expression used by musicians to describe a player who has a particularly good sense of rhythm; who plays very deep in the groove; this is independent of musical genre. There is good sense of rhythm and then there is GOOD SENSE OF RHYTHM. Sometimes it is a stylistic choice to play around the time, and other times it's just a less developed sense of time which causes a player to sound like he is rushing (too far ahead of the beat) or dragging (too far behind the beat). If you think of a metronome's clicking as being "perfect" rhythm, there is a certain degree of latitude on either side of the beat that would be considered acceptable and part of a player's musical personality. Some musicians have the ability to play/sing with metronomic precision and still make it FEEL good and not sound like a machine. Satchmo had it, Ray Charles, Miles, Sonny Rollins and others. Examples of players who tended to play on the front side of the beat would be Cannonball, Trane. A great example of a player who tended to play on the back side of the beat would be Dexter Gordon. Best example of "in the pocket" that I can think of would be James Brown. Imo. |
****Although it’s good to know such things if you’re a musician.****
Actually, it’s also good to know these things if you’re just a listener; which is why I bothered making the comment. You may choose to be the kind of listener who doesn’t care about knowing these things and continue to, as you yourself just admitted, "get lost", and that’s perfectly fine. Or, you can choose to not be so dismissive of a little bit of knowledge and become a more astute listener. I assure you that there are many listeners who are not musicians who don’t "get lost" so easily or need musicians to tell them "what’s going on".
Now, you can choose to get indignant and we can, once again, get into some bullshit sparring; or, you can choose to be a little more gracious about a simple and well intended offer of a little knowledge related to a question asked by someone else (Rok) who apparently is interested in a bit of knowledge ("in the pocket"?). Your choice.
Btw, you probably think of Frank Wess as being a flute player because he was one of the very first to play and record jazz on the flute; firstly as a member of Count Basie’s orchestra. However, he was first and foremost a tenor player; and a great one at that. Great clip; thanks Acman3. |
****Is this the "I feel good" James Brown?**** Damn right! You beat me to the punch with that clip. Killing! and totally in the pocket; as always. DD Jackson: Fabulous! Loved it and one that I will have to get. James Carter sounds amazing; this is one time when his exuberance as a player sounds completely appropriate and not bordering on "over the top". Thanks for the clip and the introduction. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AsVyPAVBzRQ |
O-10, I have a nice glass of Cabernet in my hand so I am feeling patient. I will give it a shot:
I have no interest in anyone’s (including your) acknowledgment of my "wisdom"; I don’t think of it that way, and I don’t operate that way. The issue, and something that you seem incapable of understanding, is that it is downright annoying (at best) and disrespectful (at worst) when you come chiming in and basically say that, since I was not addressing musicians, my comment was worthless to participants in this thread; especially when the comment was in response to someone else’s query, not yours. Please don’t misunderstand; when I say "disrespectful" it is not that I feel I deserve any particular respect for any other reason than what can be expected in any reasonable human, and adult, interaction. I make no mountains out of molehills. This claim is, however, your pattern. You make a blanket statement that is dismissive of a comment that is intended as an honest contribution and then when there is a reaction you make your claims. Anyway, I could go on, but as I write this it becomes more and more clear that it is not surprising, and actually quite fitting, that someone who has no interest in knowledge should be so blind to the truth of what happens in basic "social" interaction.
****and think everything I utter pertains to him personally, ****
Don’t flatter yourself; that is the last thing I am interested in. However, it would be nice if you got your facts straight.
****He wrote three long paragraphs about "Behind the beat or in front of the beat". ****
Really? I believe it was one; and not directed at you. But it begs the question: why does it bother you that there is much to say about rhythm? I thought you were a music "aficionado"?
Enough of of that nonsense; Blakey: I have news for you. It was, in fact, I who made the comment about Blakey’s rhythm; however, as is typical, you misconstrue what the comment was really about. Go back and search our "archives", and you will find that my comment was that I found Blakey to play with a somewhat "lazy" time feel and that I generally prefer a drummer with a more "incisive" rhythmic sense. You reacted very strongly to this comment and since Blakey is one of your musical heroes, you seemed to feel that not only was my comment incorrect, but you seemed almost offended by it.
Now, let me ask you: should not a person like yourself who puts so much stock in subjective opinion respect what was, simply, my subjective opinion about Blakey? I, in no way, claimed that he wasn’t a good drummer, but simply that I preferred a different style of drumming. Btw, that discussion was in the context of a debate about the relative merits of Miles’ "KOB" vs Cannonball’s "Somethin Else"; if you care.
Time for another glass. 🍷 Cheers! |
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psag, welcome to thread! Rok beat me to the punch with his comment. I think it's hard to make a case for
****In the 60's the hotseat for jazz creativity moved to Europe, ****
when, for starters, you had the work of, among others, Miles and Trane during that period.
Please don't let the challenge discourage you from posting. You will find very passionate opinions about jazz and its history here; but, different and interesting points of view are always welcomed. Looking forward to your comments and contributions.
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Willis Jackson: Jackson, Charles Earland, Pat Martino, Idris Muhammad; what could possibly go wrong? Soulful, funky; and that tenor sound! Martino has always liked to play with organ players; he is a monster player. Muhammad was one of Dexter Gordon's last drummers; great player. Earland "The Mighty Burner". Great lineup.
In his review on Allmusic, Scott Yanow states "This is a particularly exciting release... The chord changes might be fairly basic but Willis Jackson plays with such enthusiasm and exuberance that it almost sounds as if he had discovered the joy of playing music".
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Hargrove "Soppin The Biscuit". Nice! Probably my favorite Hargrove so far. Notice how he left space in his solo and didn't cram every beat with notes; much more coherent solo as a result. Turrentine; what a sound! Knew it was him after a few notes. Loved this one; then again, it's with another one of my favorite tenor players: https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLLhORrvwD4q8PiN2bIn5cbuaHiomigktt¶ms=OAFIAVgF&v=nC0zxx...Who can name the tune that Joe Henderson quotes at the very start of his solo at :45? Hint: Cuba I may have to get check out Hargrove again. Thanks for the clip. |
jzzmusician, I'll have to listen to that clip another couple of times; I was way too distracted by Liz Wright. I think I'm in love. |
O-10, oh geez....do I have to do this? Frogman 10-04-2014 **** I do think that Blakey sounds, as usual, a little lazy and sloppy. That’s his style but not my cup of tea. He is obviously a great drummer.**** Orpheus10 10-04-2014 ****As I sit here trying to respond to your post, I get more and more "discombobulated"; Art Blakey a "sloppy drummer".....**** In keeping with what I wrote; I would say. Nonetheless, if you insist on feeling that I think that "everything you utter is directed at me" and that "I lay claim to things that I didn’t say about Blakey’s drumming", by all means, knock yourself out; the facts are the facts. In the meantime, how about a meaningful comment about music instead of bs? You are, after all, "the one and only Orpheus". Oh, and a minor detail: The comment that you were referring to, we now learn, was FROM A DIFFERENT THREAD and posted TWO YEARS BEFORE THIS THREAD WAS EVEN STARTED! Why on earth would anyone think that you were NOT referring to a comment made by someone ON THIS THREAD. Are you serious? Btw, I know you are a fan, sorry to report Gato Barbieri passed yesterday. RIP, Gato. This one's for you O-10. Not exactly my cup of tea, but the guy definitely had a sound and played from the heart. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IX5pfCFjmVo |
jzzmusician, thanks for the clip. Wasn't familiar with MeShell and always good to make musical acquaintances. Her music seems to be in a kind of neo-soul bag and definitely creates a mood. Is that her playing bass on that cut; I understand she's a pretty good electric bass player. Of course, we always have: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=p_PxgSQ9Vf4When I first listened to your clip for some reason (probably the Rhodes piano) it made me think of: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=knbmKDUYDXc |
Rok, man!, you sure covered a lot of saxophone ground with those two posts; Webster/Hodges to World Saxophone Qt,! Love the WSQ! But, then, I love saxophone quartets. For guys known for their avantgarde playing this is some of the most "inside" stuff they've done; but it works and I love it. Very difficult to play without a rhythm section and still create that kind of groove. And, of course, the sonority of a saxophone quartet is somethin special. At at the opposite end of the saxophone sonority scale you can have the kind of refinement that is not heard too often from the saxophone. Nothing like Bach played by a good classical saxophone qt.; closest thing to the sound of an organ that I know of: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=31fXCKg1KNg |
That's right. Digging a little deeper still, much of Bach's music was written in four part harmony; SATB (soprano, alto, tenor, bass- the voice types required in a choir and applicable to instrumental music) |
Of course, I meant to write "It Don't Mean A Thing..." not, "I Don't Mean A Thing....". The jokes can start flying now ☺️ |
"INSIDE": conventional, traditional, tonal, "inside the harmony"
"OUTSIDE": outside conventional harmony, atonal, avantgarde, "noisemaker" 😉 |
****Who can name the tune that Joe Henderson quotes at the very start of his solo at :45? Hint: Cuba**** https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLLhORrvwD4q8PiN2bIn5cbuaHiomigktt¶ms=OAFIAVgF&v=nC0zxx...Since there were no takers, the answer is: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0oWhz0G4-TgThe melody starts at :11. "Siboney" is, along with "Guantanamera", one of the tunes most associated with Cuban music. It’s title refers to the name of the island’s native Indiians. Beautiful melody. What would give a great jazz player like Joe Henderson the idea to quote a tune so seemingly removed from the jazz lexicon? The answer shows the vastness of the musical reservoir and intellect of the great jazz players; and gives great insight into the creative process involved in the creation of a cogent jazz solo. Why this tune? For anyone interested in this sort of thing (you can stop reading now O-10 😉): Hargrove’s tune starts with a simple minor chord in the key of C; three notes, C, E flat, G. The first three notes of the "Siboney" melody are precisely those three notes, C, Eb, G. Henderson then uses that little musical kernel to develop his entire solo. He takes that little musical idea and uses its basic shape and goes off in many different directions, but comes back to it in an obvious way at various points in the solo to sort of "ground" it to the original idea. He does this at 1:22. This time, he morphs that musical kernel into a quote of a tune with a similar shape, Ellington’s "I Don’t Mean A Thing....." (gotta love it!). He goes off again and makes one final obvious reference to it at 2:02 and ends the solo. All this may sound to some like a lot of intellectual gobbly-goop. It should serve, at least, to show just how much is going on in the minds of the jazz greats; they are artistic and intellectual giants. Importantly, wether we are able to recognize what is going on or not, this is one of the reasons that some players hold our attention and some don’t; why we like some and not others. Those we don’t like as much tend to be the ones who, even with impressive technical skill, don’t have the ability to apply this kind of logic to their improvisation and just play a lot of unrelated licks. Like the old timers like to say: "They ain’t sayin shit". |
Above link was corrected. Sorry. |
****"Funkettes"***
Nah, I made that up 🙃. Re their dancing: it brings up an interesting point. The video and audio tracks are not in sync (technical problem) so no matter what, the dancing won't look as tight as it would if the tracks were in sync; even if they were great dancers. They're probably pretty good dancers but not exactly funky "street" dancers like you might see in a hip-hop video. James and the band move so well to that kind of music that if things are off a little bit it still looks pretty good (although not quite as good as it would otherwise). The "Funkettes" don't move as well to that kind of music to begin with, so there's no "margin of error" to the viewer's eye, so they look obviously off the beat of the music. |
****....kill it, as usual****
In the good sense; of course. |
Excellent! Good catch. He quotes Gerswhin’s "Rhapsody In Blue"; the passage that follows the end of the opening clarinet solo: @ :40 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KPL19IgsEHcJames Carter is a monster saxophone player; a real virtuoso with amazing technical command of the instrument. Very exuberant player. What I like most about his playing is that he can play in a modern bag with a tone that harkens back to the traditional, big fat, robust tenor sound of the old players; especially the Texas tenors. Great clip. |
