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o10, I have this album so don't know why I didn't think to post it earlier? It will close out my caravan contributions. At least this is closer to jazz than my last couple of links. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXLrrp49GqE |
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o10, your comment "I've been listening to violin since I can remember, on the radio, the movies, and I'm qualified to judge by comparison." really amazed me. Considering all the electronics any music passes through to be listened to with either of those sources the tonalities can be considerably affected.
For me, the only measure of tone accuracy is live, unamplified music. That way all electronics are eliminated. Unfortunately that experience becomes more and more difficult to find since most musicians and/or producers seem to feel sound amplification is necessary. And that may be a function of the push for larger concert venues, where amplification may really be needed.
Considering our subject of jazz, I look for performances in smaller concerts (clubs, churches, etc.) seating hopefully less than about 200 and with all instrumentation strictly acoustic -- for true tonalities. This to calibrate my ears, I certainly attend other venues to hear specific artists or music.
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And now for something completely different. (That is, I just hope it was not covered before I began reading this site!) After all the recommendations for female singers and bass, sax, guitar players, how about drummers? I’ll start by nominating someone who was respected but hardly ever mentioned among the very best -- Joe Morello. For evidence you Honor, I submit this as Exhibit A - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LBZJk5Kfgw |
And if you hold any doubt, here is Exhibit B - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Kx1GVYPOosI'm not a musician and am generally bored by long drum solos, but JM could sometimes be an exception. And note the respectful comments below the video. BTW, o10, I like Blakey too. And respect there goes at least as much for his ability to discover great new musicians as much as his drumming prowess. |
I believe I did mention Shelly Mann, but only in passing regarding the Previn Trio.
I have a friend here who is a pro drummer, playing both jazz and classical (symphony). Shelly is his favorite and I hear that whenever I listen to Jim. Nothing flashy, just steady and with lots of subtle little inflections. |
For those who never saw it, and others like myself who would enjoy seeing it again, here is the nearly one hour documentary on the creation of "A Great Day In Harlem". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwP1g0zEHDwI was just learning to appreciate jazz about this time and these are my people! ;^) |
Many thanks frogman. I particularly enjoyed the live "Blue Rondo". I’ve always liked that as much if not better than "Take Five". Plus it was a treat watching them performing and getting such a kick out of each other. Now I’ll show my age by saying I also appreciated the steady camera work. No rapid "jump cutting" which has become de rugueur these days.
In addition I appreciate your musical explanations since I know so little about the technicalities. I can hear whenever someone is out of tune or off tempo but never learned to read music or play any instrument so much is otherwise lost on me.
Lastly my feelings about that version of the Brubeck Quartet. I’ve long felt they were one of the top groups in the world of jazz. Yes, they often ranked highly in popular polls but didn’t do so well in critic’s polls. I believe that was because they were so popular in general that "serious" jazz critics and musicians refused to give them fair due. Only Paul Desmond seemed to be considered outside that. Still, as your live clip displayed, they played not only with inventive rhythms, but they had wonderful interplay and could swing pretty hard. Of course, each one of the four was a top musician. OK I’m a fanboy and must have at least 20 of their albums. But for this uneducated musical set of ears they played music I could understand, even with the complex rhythms, while loving their spontaneity and creativity.
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Well frogman, some held a bias FOR those musicians while others held a bias AGAINST them. Such is human nature. ;^)
But I understood the point you intended.
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To my ears, whether something "swings" or not is not part of my sense of East Coast VS West Coast. In general, East Coast is simply more blues based and has a harder beat. When I was young and first getting into jazz at the end of the '50s and early '60s (yes frogman, I've got several years on you), the debate over the merits of each style was well underway. For me, Brubeck, Mulligan/Baker, and others could certainly swing. Maybe it was more the absence of that hard beat that contributed to the "cool" label?
Now I've lived on both coasts. When you get within a mile or two of the Atlantic you can smell it (the sea air I mean, not backwater bilge). However here by the Pacific I can be within a city block and not be so aware of it. I don't know if the Atlantic is briner but in general the East Coast has higher humidity and I suspect that greater moisture in the air carries the salt smells.
I bring that up because it suggests other characteristics to me. NYC is known to be loud, up front, in your face, while LA has the reputation to be laid back, relaxed, and yes, cool. Whether those are fair characterizations or not, they have also been applied to the jazz associated with each. The simplest difference may be that East Coast jazz tends to be more intense.
With all that, should I guess that Bruce Katz is from California?
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A sorry Brubeck story - at least sorry for me.
Sometime in the early 2000s Brubeck was scheduled to perform with our local symphony. A friend who knew I was a fan ask if I wanted to get tickets. I declined, saying I'd seen him in concert a few times and had only positive memories. Now at his age (late 80s at the time) I didn't want to see him and be disappointed with that last recollection.
Well the joke was on me. Talking with a few afterwards who did attend that performance, they all said it was wonderful and his energy drove the evening. Obviously I regretted missing that last great memory.
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Thanks ghost. I don’t have emojis so nothing to suggest a tongue-in-cheek following my comment about Katz being from CA. But the first tune of his you linked suggested that to me. The later one about the Poodle I couldn’t get into to pass judgement. ;^) Also, thanks alex for the link on Gottlieb. Of course Francis Wolff will come to mind for many of us for his wonderful photos. But I saw an intriguing exhibit about five years ago of The Loft Project by W. Eugene Smith. That is recommended to any of you - http://www.mopa.org/jazzloft |
"Miss Minor" sounded like a soundtrack for an LA detective series. |
ghost, I didn't make it through all 17 pages of Gottlieb's LOC photos, but I enjoyed looking at the first part. It struck me how many shots I'd seen before without knowing who was the photographer.
A bit of trivia - Jack Crystal in that photo in the Commodore Record Shop is Billy Crystal's dad.
Also, about the transition from jackets and ties. In college in the early '60s it was common to wear a coat and tie on a date, even when attending football games. Then I dropped out of school, spent three years in the Navy, and returned to finish in 1966. The change over that brief time was astounding. From coats and ties to work shits, denim jackets, or fatigues. The "Summer of Love" and Viet Nam protests were obvious signs of great cultural changes in the mid-'60s. Music in general, and certainly jazz, changed during that time as well. Miles went electric. That may not have generated as much controversy as Dylan doing the same thing, but only because Dylan had a bigger audience. |
Ahem, that should have read "work shirts".
Spell-check often wants to change my intended word, so where was it this time?
o10, I had pretty positive feelings about Nica from Robin Kelley's bio, "Thelonious Monk, The Life and Times of an American Original". I expect any bad press on her at that time was simply racial bias.
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"I'd rather be a hammer than a nail!" But not quite Simon and Garfunkle.
However I do have two 45 sets of Yma Sumac. One, "Voice of the Xtabay" includes 8 songs on four records. The other, "Inca Taqui" offers 8 songs on two discs. A pretty impressive voice. |
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o10, not sure I understood your "not my cup of tea" reference. Was that related to my "Timeless" link post? For me, that relates to a bit of Miles, who certainly was classic jazz, except when he wasn't. ;^) For those without a full catalog of Miles' records, this was his initial real departure from "classic jazz" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSPuPYIK5-E |
o10, that was fun. Being the resident old fart in this group I'm sure I was the easiest to pick for. ;^) Yes, I love most anything by Silver. However my "classic jazz" preferences for recordings from the '50s and '60s are not exclusive. This is sacrilege to many but I'm not a fan of Ellington for example. I respect his songs and performances but there is hardly anything I ever want to pick out to listen to. Basie is an entirely different story. But there was much from the '70s I love to hear as well. Could that be a carry-over from the rock which I also like? Maybe so, since a favorite was and is Mahavishnu Orchestra, which included John McLaughlin and Jan Hammer. That made it an easy step to enthusiasm for Weather Report. And I certainly didn't reject Miles when he released "Bitches Brew", although I'll admit after a couple of follow up albums everything began to sound the same to me. Here is a delightful exception - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5qfuqXuqkILastly, I don't feel "frozen" with my preferred music. I can reach backward to music my dad loved (as suggested here a few weeks ago) and forward as well. It's just that I don't enjoy listening to what I consider to be basically rehashes of what went before. I'd rather view a work of art in person than see it in a book or on a video any day. |
inna, one of the best and most memorable concerts I've attended was Mahavishnu Orchestra at Funky Quarters in SD in the early '70s. It was a small club and we had a table up front and center. Just watching and hearing all the interplay between musicians as they fed and challenged one another was exceptional. A real emotional high that I remember more than 40 years later. ;^)
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o10, not that it will matter to most here, but yes, I do listen to a wide variety of music, including classic rock, blues, string band (blue grass), classical (mainly symphonic), World Music (that catch-all for other than American or European), and selected soundtracks. I have around 3,000 LPs, 300+ CDs, and even still at least 100 cassettes (self recorded, I didn't care for commercial, hi-speed duped offerings). However between recordings I own and (fortunately) a great local college jazz FM station, I listen to more jazz than any other music. Then I assume the four tracks for comment were in your 8/26 post. So here are my quick impressions. - Shadowfax: never really listened to them, nothing offensive there but only a step away from "light jazz" which holds no interest for me at all. - Jazz Crusaders: yes, I enjoyed them, even after they went for a larger, main-stream market when they dropped Jazz from their name. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OahE2GGaGq4- Silver: I've not heard them all but never listened to a Horace Silver album I didn't enjoy. As a footnote, over the first couple of years in college I attempted to play with friends in a trio or quartet. The pianist was self-taught and heavily influenced by Silver so that was the groove we attempted to play in. "Filthy McNasty"!! I don't have any real musical talent but was able to find a cheap upright bass and learned some basic "walking bass" patterns after being shown them on the piano. It was great fun, even if we were not very good, other than my friend on piano. Charles & Bags: good stuff, I like Brother Ray whether vocal or instrumental. |
I believe with Popwell and Carlton in the band that was the Crusaders, not the Jazz Crusaders as labeled. Not that it matters to me, I find both to be worthy and enjoyed that number.
Re: Shadofax, I intended to say "a step away from smooth jazz". That has an identity while if light jazz is any different, not certain what that identity might be. I just don't bother with it.
Acman, plus any others in the TX/LA coastal area, best wishes you have minimal impact. I have family in the Houston area and just learned they are moving what they can to the second level of their home just in case.
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mary_jo, thanks for bringing Julie back again.
I think I could enjoy hearing her even reciting from a telephone directory! ;^) |
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This seems to be a time for the jazz train to be diverted to a side track for several of us. I'm returning after two weeks dealing with family issues. frog, on 9/11 you mentioned making the effort to explore new music rather than waiting for (familiar) music to simply come to us. That reminded me of first hearing Ornette in the very early '60s. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJULMOw69EIWhat seemed so "out there" on first listen began to sound comfortable fairly quickly. Then I remember listening to that album a few years later and feeling it was hardly outside at all. Like Mr. Einstein said, it's all relative. ;^) o-10, if I correctly appreciate your situation I'll hope you can continue visiting between low points, and that you'll then return full strength when past all that. |
The opening reminded me of this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7te1syRAYO0but then it failed to hang together so well. Maybe I need to listen a couple of times. I don't always "get it" on first listen to things I enjoy later. (although usually I do). |
OK folks, a few random thoughts to share.
frog, good catch in turn with "Milestones". I knew there was something else lurking underneath in that performance but my memory couldn't pull it up.
Chris Thile is an amazing talent. He is from San Diego County and I first heard him in person here more than 15 years ago when Nickel Creek first established themselves -- yes, I enjoy string band music too.
Regarding Potter, I'd seen his name but never listened to his playing until a couple of posts here. I tend to agree that he may have proficiency with his horn but I just don't hear the feeling/connectivity in his playing. But that could well be due to not hearing him other than on my computer and with only a couple of selections here. Still, for example, and not to start a different controversy, he reminds me of a couple of Japanese jazz musicians who have enjoyed some popularity in the US. Musicianship very good, soul and emotional expression lacking.
And that goes back to some thoughts o-10 and I exchanged when I first began posting here. I admit to being "locked into" an era and style for jazz. Being such an old fart (OK, I'm 75) I must admit I don't have that many years left to enjoy the music I love. That could be 15 years, 5 years, 5 weeks, who knows? I'm fortunate to have collected a significant number of albums of favorite musicians and performances. My focus happens to be on the enjoyment of those. I'm not saying there is no new music worth discovering and exploring, I'm just relating what I consider to be the best utilization of my listening time. So no disrespect to anyone who does not care for what I enjoy, or finds pleasure where I don't. Peace to you all.
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Interesting about "In A Silent Way". I'd been listening to Miles for at least 10 years when that was released, but I loved it immediately. Maybe my ears were softened because I already enjoyed non-heavy metal rock? That pleasure continued with "Bitches Brew". But a couple more electronic Miles albums and it wore thin for me and I quit buying his latest releases.
A funny story, which I expect was duplicated many times around the country. Around '72 or '73 I attended a Miles concert at our local civic auditorium (my preference for smaller venue performances was no longer possible because of his popularity). When we walked in the curtain was open to expose an array of mics and speakers spread across the stage. When the musicians came out everyone plugged in except the drummer (who already had fixed mics). The audience didn't boo or throw things but at least half walked out by intermission. We stayed and enjoyed the entire performance.
Wish I could find a video of Macero at a studio Monk recording session to share. I thought that was a bit embarrassing the way he acted, putting on a black jive routine when greeting Monk.
Like ghosthouse I'm not particularly a fan of boxed compilations but I was not aware either of the production of "In A Silent Way" so that would be interesting.
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Hey frog, yes that's the one and you found it quickly. Thanks for posting.
The "black jive routine" was just my description of Macero's attempt at being cool and looking the fool. And yes I know he had some serious musical credits, which I assume led to becoming a producer at Columbia. But he simply looks awkward here and possibly even uncomfortable so tries to cover it up by overdoing weak humor.
True point about Monk. He picked his sidemen based upon expected production, if they were good enough they would work it out for themselves. Some were selected and put on stage without even one rehearsal. Man, you'd better have your stuff together! ;^)
And I'm certainly familiar with the connotations of the bad MF label.
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Back to blues for just a couple more comments. rok, I do like Stevie Ray (alluding to earlier comments) but I tend to agree with you. The best blues comes with a slow tempo. For me the feelings are just deeper and more sincere that way. And what is blues except a deep expression of personal feelings? Also I was another distant listener to WLAC in the evening. I'd tune in with my little Motorola table radio, next to my bed. But my bedroom was upstairs so I could enjoy a modest level when the door was closed. Lots of young teens in southern Michigan tuned in in those years. Here's info, including the "Late night rhythm and blues" years - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WLAC |
As I expect most of us realize, Miles influenced so many musicians it would be hard to count them. He truly was a bad MF! ;^)
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o10, Speaking of not haven't been shared on this thread, I didn't go back to day 1 but since I've been following no mention of Don Ellis. I'm not a big fan of big bands but there are some I enjoy. The Ellis Orchestra is one, although I could do without the electric piano (too common during the time of this recording). Great driving beat as typical in Woody Herman's recordings. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yikq_OQGNRY |
Yes, good choice.
As I said, I'm not a big fan of big bands. By necessity too much is written out which takes it further away from jazz in my (non-musician's) opinion. Still, there are several I do enjoy so I may as well list them.
For the older bands, which for me means going back to the '40s even though what I listen to was recorded since then, I start with Basie and Woody Herman.
Moving forward I listen to Gil Evans, both scoring for Miles and with his own orchestra, Mulligan, Ellis, Monk (only three recordings that I'm aware of but those include arrangements by Hall Overton and really expand on Monk's music), Carla Bley, and George Russell.
Wikipedia defines big bands as those with 10 or more musicians and that's good enough for me.
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I wondered if listing George Russell among big bands I enjoy would elicit any comment. None, but then most posts seem to generate discussion when a performance link is provided. So with that I say So What - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aQoHRgS8s8 |
Wow, thanks for that frog. Your information ties together a few things for me. Remember I've admitted to not having any musical background.
I'll blush to say I never heard of that album. But now I've got to find a copy. I know many here would just download it but I'm not into that. So vinyl will me my first choice, then CD if I can't find a new or very clean LP.
Yes o10, nothing like Miles. And that's just fine, better to have very different versions.
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o10, with any McLaughlin music I've heard, I either love it or simply like it. What a great artist, whether playing with Miles, Santana, or one if his own groups.
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Interesting about human nature. So many times we hold our own views so tightly that we are not open to appreciate those held by others. I'm not beyond doing that myself. That can be seen here within this post but in many other places as well. I just stumbled across this link to a Patricia Barber performance at Newport. I've been a fan of her music for more than 15 years. If you're not familiar she plays piano and organ as well as vocals, and her quartet is always very tight. She performs standards, her own compositions, and sometimes pop/rock songs, all with her own very personalized approach. What struck me here was among the comments to this video someone bashed it, suggested listening to Bill Evans instead. Now I greatly enjoy Evans, but I don't want to see a contemporary musician come on stage and simply emulate his playing. I'm paying attention to this other artist because I want something different. If I'm in the mood for a taste of Evans then I'll pull out one of his recordings -- no substitutes. (Although I will admit that Barber's posture sometimes looks about the same as Evans' often did!) This Newport performance runs nearly an hour. If you're curious to see what they do with a pop/rock tune but don't have time for the whole thing, just jump to about the 44 minute mark for "Norwegian Wood". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7JtThZN_SY |
kyat, you may be interested to know that Satchmo recording was sourced from an old Audio Fidelity LP released in 1964. It was recently reissued as a full LP, then apparently once the quality of that particular number was realized, a single 45 RPM version of "St. James Infirmary" was released. You can find the LP for much less than $150! https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_fb_1_21?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=louis+armstr... The point being that recordings need not be new to offer great sonics. However, for newer recordings with great sonics and natural tonalities I need not go any further than LPs by Patricia Barber as I referenced above. |
frog, thanks for your thoughtful comments as always.
There may be some misunderstanding about mentioning Evans relative to Barber. I was not suggesting they had the same playing style. Rather, one commenter to the video apparently didn't appreciate her playing and suggested listening to Bill Evans instead. So my point was to admit they are different and one should listen to each for their individualistic styles, but not to suggest no one else should enjoy Barber and all should listen to Evans instead.
Still, I couldn't resist a tongue-in-cheek comment about her posture at a couple of points resembling Evans in the way he would bend over with his face so close to the keyboard, almost as if he was whispering secrets to his piano. ;^)
Hope you enjoy "Cafe Blue". And I agree completely about the "Diana Krall syndrome".
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o10, growing up in southern MI it was no problem receiving AM stations from Detroit and Chicago. If I waited until nighttime (> 9PM) I could regularly receive WLAC and also Boston, Cleveland and even sometimes New Orleans stations. Maybe more, those are ones I remember.
As I've mentioned before, that was fun since in the mid to late '50s music was still more regional. So most metro areas had their own Top 10 or 20 songs. Then with "Your Hit Parade" and "Bandstand" the top song lists became national.
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alex, no offense taken. I feel the same way about Diana Krall and she is hugely popular. I don't deny her technical chops (as perceived by a non-musician) but her recordings I've heard leave me uninvolved.
But then variety (in taste) is one element to keep this old globe spinning. ;^)
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Thanks for this frog. I have a number of Evans' albums but never even heard of this one. I've not noted many male vocals suggested here since I've been following o10's post. Here's one I enjoy, a nice matching of talent and approach, even if Tony is more of a crooner than jazz stylist. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAxGfEaUoXE |
