frogman, it definitely settles into 4/4, but the beginning is way over my head time-wise.
I did get into Return to Forever way back when but soon stopped putting it on the platter. I think I relegated it to the fusion category, which, while I respected the levels of composition and musicianship, was so frenetic I didn't often play it. (You may recall my fondness for Larry Coryell, but I never listen to 11th House).
When I get my SOTA/SME back online, I'll have to revisit my ECM Corea vinyl.
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frogman, thank you for your detailed description. I have printed your post and plan to jot the syncopation down on staff. It's been so many years since I've read music I need to brush up, starting with understanding your explanation of "Antidote."
I'd like to be able to recognize the complexity of the syncopation within the time as well as you do.
BTW, nice talk on syncopation by Wynton.
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@aewarren
You could ignore the chatter and just click on the posted links to check out recommended music. Great way to explore stuff you're not aware of and wind up with more great music to listen to.
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For decades, one of my favorite "unknown" recordings has been Yusef Lateef's "Live at Pep's." Lateef (like many) doesn't get the credit he deserves as a jazz legend.
Just finished listening and wanted to share.
This particular recording aside, I've admired Lateef since I was a young buck. An amazing musician who explored the globe in order to immerse himself in vastly different musical cultures, then infuse them into his native jazz. He hasn't simply enriched my musical world - he instilled a desire to explore all aspects of other cultures (not just music) and seek beauty in things unfamiliar.
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My school orchestras (I'm 65):
Trumpet: all boys
Trombone: all boys
Baritone: all boys
Tuba: all boys
Violin: all girls
Cello: all girls
Flute: all girls
Clarinet: mixed
Oboe: mixed
Bassoon: all boys
Sax: NA
Tympani: all boys
Bass drum: all boys
Snare, cymbals: all boys
Given the times, I'm sure we were funneled into certain instruments according to gender.
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The Thai saying is "sum num na." Americans had no business in Viet Nam. Why the f**k would we even try after the best French leadership told us it was a lost cause? We all know the answer - perceived American righteousness and invincibility. Sum num na,
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<<
The best Jazz drummers, you hardly know they are there.
>>
Tony Williams. Just sit and listen. If you can focus on sax or trumpet, you can focus on drums. Williams was the best.
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@orpheus10 It’s a relief to run into Americans who “get it.” You too Schubert – thanks. Too few do, as denial of the history and lasting impact of
American Apartheid runs very, very deep.
It’s there for those who want to research it, but most don’t.
Re: your accurate description of how the South turned
Republican on a dime in the 60’s, I assembled this analysis of the
Congressional voting on the 1965 Civil Rights Acts awhile back:
Combined House & Senate vote count on final
version:
- Southern
Democrats: 9–103
- Southern
Republicans: 0–12
- Northern
Democrats: 190–9
- Northern
Republicans: 164–29
Summary: Southern votes = 9 for, 115 against.
Northern
votes = 353 for, 38 against.
It’s an American illness, and there’s no cure in
sight.
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@rok2id
Your guess is wrong; that's not my thinking. My point was well stated - no need to ask what it was or try to distort it by re-stating things your way.
You're clearly part of the problem, and you'll never see it.
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@rok2id
<<are you American?>> Yep. WASP baby boomer. Why do you ask? |
@rok2id
"I don't understand why I am part of the problem. Please elaborate."
The problem I presented to O-10 is different from the problem you see. I said:
<<Too few do ("get it"), as denial of the history and lasting impact of
American Apartheid runs very, very deep.
It’s there for those who want to research it, but most don’t.
>>
If you have researched and do understand that history and its lasting impact, just say so. Reading your posts, you don't seem to, so you appear to be part of the problem I cited.
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The Walt Dickerson links are greatly appreciated. Fantastic tone, and the duration of the "ringing" bars is impressive.
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@rok2id
<<Slavery was the best thing that ever happened to Black folks.
(got them out of Africa) (a green card was not an option in the 1600’s.)>>
<<Jim
Crow was the second best thing that ever happened to Black folks.>>
Rok, unfortunately your words remind me of the Nazi flyers left on our front porch when I was a kid. The depressing thing is that you'll never get it - as so many Americans never will.
The USA is doomed to never-ending racial strife. It will be a big part of our downfall.
O10, it would be a pleasure to meet and share observations. But this is the web. Just let it be known we're "in tune."
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@nsp
Ideally, this would be a forum to discuss jazz and jazz only. But would you remain silent when someone posts this stuff? I can't, and no one who gets jazz should either.
<<Slavery was the best thing that ever happened to Black folks.(got them out of Africa) (a green card was not an option in the 1600’s.)>>
<<Jim
Crow was the second best thing that ever happened to Black folks.>>
What's disappointing is that I've been the only one to call Rok out on this post. How can this be? Get rid of the blinders and stop pretending nothing's wrong.
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@alexatpos
Well said. I am certainly a relative newbie here, so your words are well taken.
Back to Jazz!
It had been awhile, but I pulled out the Jimmy Cobb Quartet, "Cobb's Corner," a few nights ago. Really hit the spot. Chesky Records.
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Yusef Lateef "Live at Pep's." Go global. Lateef was the best at melding the music of the far east with American jazz and blues. It doesn't get much better than this.
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@mary_jo
<<In this light, old recordings seem more real and more attractive to
folks who appreciate live recording and therefore music with certain
"faults"...
>>
Absolutely. Rudy van Gelder enriched my musical world like no other. These are 60 year-old recordings that are captivating and mesmerizing.
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acman3, that track woke me out of a long-term stupor. Why have I owned Jack Johnson for so long but never play it any more? Fantastic funk rock. McLaughlin & Miles. Damn.
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O-10: I saw McCoy Tyner probably 8-10 times. I was never more than 20 feet away, and I always set myself up where I could see the keyboard. Amazing journey - every time. And his bassist, Avery Sharpe, was (and is) a genius.
When you hear and feel the music first hand while watching a master's hands on the keyboard, it's transfixing.
This forum is so centered on wonderful recorded music, it wasn't until now that I realized I have little idea how often the regular posters have been able to experience the best live music. Is it a function of proximity? I'm an urban creature - how is it for rural folk?
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Lots of catching up to do. First, I urge you to take heed to tostadosunidos' recommendation: any of the Ella Fitzgerald/Joe Pass duets.
My favorite is "Take Love Easy." No idea how many evenings in the last 40 years I've put this on, closed my eyes and been transported to... my own listening room, where Joe and Ella are performing right in front of me. It has to be over 200 times. This recording is that amazing: music 10, recording 10. Sublime.
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OK, I confess. I own a 1951 Olds 98 4-door sedan. It's a physical connection with a gone by era I love. A cruise in the 98 can't be replicated in this "digital is everything" era.
And the AM tube radio still pulls in stations from all over the US... just like it did 70 years ago.
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I would have liked to spend more time here the last few months, but c'est la vie. I wish you all peace, good health and happiness in 2022.
From one who left us this year:
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@frogman
I spent a couple hours here tonight exploring everyone's posts. Amazing stuff but... your Turrentine cut is tops. TYSM!
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@frogman
"Husky." Sheer genius. I've never heard "husky" used to describe a player's sound, but anyone who is truly dialed in gets it.
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@isochronism
Your mention of Emily Remler has me a little choked up. I was a big fan of Larry Coryell, especially live. I hadn't heard of Remler until I saw them playing a lengthy set together about 12 feet in front of me in the late 80's (Coryell often had unannounced players join him, as it should be).
Emily had an obvious feel (and reverence) for the music, especially for someone so young - with the talent to express it. And then she was gone at only 32.
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Pjw, absolutely. "European Impressions," recorded in 1978. Side 1 was live at Montreux, Side 2 was studio work. Do I love this album? Over the years, I picked up several mint back-up copies "just in case." The Arista vinyl puts you in the front row at Montreux. Wonderful sound. See track list below. "Rodrigo Reflections" from the same live performance used to be on YouTube but now can't be found. Spell-binding. This album was never available in digital form until a few months after Coryell passed away, when it was released in Japan. I ordered it immediately "just in case." Side 1 (Montreux, 7/23/78): Toronto Under the Sign of CapricornFor Philip and DjangoRodrigo Reflections Side 2 (studio, 8/17/78) April SeventhSilver Medley: Song for my Father & Sister SadieCopenhagen ImpressionsVariations on a Theme Live version of "April Seventh:" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Psft8ZRfCRU |
@frogman
Forgot to thank you for the great Coryell links. "Yesterdays" is just gorgeous.
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alexatpos, thanks for these important (to me) links. I didn't know about the video-only Royal Hall concert. Now I know Coryell preceded (and was replaced by) Al Di Meola in the trio that would soon record the legendary "Friday Night in San Francisco." And why.
(BTW, it's interesting that the opening number from the Royal Hall show with Coryell is listed as "Intro - Entre Dos Aguas." Most of us know that as "Mediterranean Sundance," the spectacular opening piece on the subsequent FNinSF recording.)
New to me: Coryell had a serious drug/alcohol addiction that became debilitating in '78 and culminated in successful rehab in late '81. This is why he was replaced by DiMeola.
New to me: Paco de Lucia didn't read music. I always assumed he did. I should have known better, as usual. Sounds like John and Larry learned a lot from Paco about flamenco, and Paco learned a lot about jazz from them.
Not new to me: McLaughlin is the ultimate virtuoso.
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@frogman
We all appreciate the spirit behind tribute recordings, but sometimes the better part of valor is leaving things alone. Mintzer's "Cute" gets too frenetic given the bouncy flavor of the composition, and his "Lil' Darlin" feels unbearably slow and unengaging.
How is it that Basie's version of "Lil' Darlin" is so smooth and satisfying, whereas Mintzer's is a yawner? I guess I'm officially old school.
Thanks for assembling and sharing these performances! |
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pjw, yes, i recall that discussion in this thread just recently. Each of those three descriptions has a different connotation for me:
Thick: rich, warm, beefy
Husky: thick with some raspiness added (kudos to frogman)Gruff: thick or husky with harshness/attitude added
For me, "gruff" crosses over into attitude and connotes a bit of unfriendliness or "pissed-offedness" (as in "he was gruff with me"), so I'm hesitant to use it unless I believe the player is intentionally expressing that (which they sometimes do). Thick and husky apply to sound. Gruff brings in mood. But that's just me.
What we each think of when we hear these terms is going to differ. That's one of the cool things about humans trying to describe the characteristics of musical sounds using words. YouTube certainly helps us better understand each others' vocabulary. Plus I can listen to all these tracks while writing posts!
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@orpheus10
<<It stands to reason that some of those rhythms and dances no longer
exist on the continent of Africa, but only exist in this hemisphere
because the entire village was transported over here on a slave ship>>
This is more reasonable than your previous blanket statement that raised so many hackles: "the
musical soul of Sub Sahara Africa sailed away on a slave ship."
That musical soul is still there - it is featured weekly on WPFW in DC. You're imagining that village-based musical cultures were wiped out and that nothing was left of West African music. But that "musical soul" was deeply ingrained across that entire swath of the continent. Sure, individual villages were decimated, but the centuries-old musical culture survived. |
O-10, I feel like I'm on the spot and not sure why. The 1995 JSTOR piece frogman posted is interesting, but I don't intend to post some kind of lengthy analysis. Maybe you should posit something and get the discussion going in the usual sequence.
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O-10, once you backed off of "it was all gone, nothing remained" and went with "it was significantly depleted," my objections to your theory have turned more "meh."
One nagging thought:
You seem to assume that villages averaging 100 inhabitants were totally wiped out by the slave trade. I'm skeptical because I think sellers and buyers weren't into rounding up every inhabitant (including frail older folks, infants that were unlikely to survive the voyage, and the physically disfigured). This was Capitalism at its most vicious, and limited ship capacity meant exporting only the more marketable subjects. If you have evidence that it was common for entire villages to be taken and thus wiped out, I'm all ears.
This all suggests some degree of survival of music and dance traditions throughout sub-Saharan Africa in spite of the horrors of the slave trade, perhaps explaining why we can still listen to current music and know we're hearing centuries of musical culture that was in place long before Europeans arrived.
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Not much time today, but it appears O-10 is skipping over New Orleans, where jazz emerged around the turn of the 19th Century. I encourage any member here to read "Louis Armstrong's New Orleans" by Thomas Brothers. The book is well researched and, as the title suggests, is as much about the social fabric of N.O. (which differed from most American cities because it flourished as a non-US trade hub for so long) and the earliest roots of what became jazz as it is about Louis. There were distinct borders for Creole, white and darker-skinned Negro neighborhoods. Storyville, King Oliver, Buddy Bolden, Kid Ory (who moved to L.A. in 1919 at age 33... hmmm). Very informative and a good read.
According to Thomas, Louis recalled that, as a child (long before he learned to play himself), he was fascinated by a poor neighborhood "rags, bottles and bones" guy playing music like he had never heard on a cheap tin party bugle someone had thrown away. The music soon spread up the Mississippi River Valley and to the Northeast to many of the cities mentioned by O-10. And, yes, the influence of music from Baptist and Sanctified churches figured prominently.
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@orpheus10
<<
You read books and listen to records, since abstract modern jazz can not
be put into words, you might have a problem if you can only understand
words.
>>
OK O-10, I'm outta here because this is downright insulting. I began learning to read and play music in the early 60's. If I can "only understand words" as you've concluded, all that training, hearing, listening and connecting means nothing. Nice.
BTW, I've been a big fan of "modern abstract jazz" ever since. You should get to know the members in the forum better. I didn't bring up N.O. because that's my favorite jazz, I brought it up for historical value.
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Catching up with the thread this AM. Acman, Kokoroko is amazing. I plan to devour whatever they have out there over the course of the week as time allows. Are they web-based? Vinyl? CD?
Folks, I'm way behind in reciprocating with music contributions. Being a relative newcomer, I feel like a kid in a candy store. I do intend (again as time allows) to give more back to the thread than I'm taking.
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@grey9hound
My apologies for mistakenly directing my thanks for the Kokoroko introduction to Acman. Let it also be known that Acman was the first to graciously inform me of my gaffe. I must have been so caught up in the performances that I got sloppy. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. It won't be long until I lose my "newbie pass."
The main thing is, thank you so much for sharing your Kokoroko find!
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frogman, thanks for your 1957 Coltrane links. Priceless.
One nit - I've always been annoyed that Red Garland spent too much time noodling. I've never been a fan. We'll be forever saddled with that same dinky-dink sound on "So What?"
Could anyone post some Red Garland clips that change my mind?
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Another Keegiam gaffe. I was thinking of Wynton Kelly, not Red Garland. I even had my example track mixed up; it's "Freddie Freeloader" that has the noodling Kelly solo, not "So What."
Don't get old folks - the synapses connect in strange ways.
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@frogman
https://youtu.be/r4P6c8EH6g0Dear Abby, dear Abby... Interesting, Wynton's playing on this track seems unemotional, unengaging and downright mechanical to me. Lee Morgan mails it in. Wayne Shorter steps in to elevate the entire track with his typical genius and vision. Please let me know if I'm off base. Signed, Noisemaker |
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