Chazro, the Maraca clip is fabulous! I can't thank you enough for that. Love how the chamber orchestra weaves in and out of the Jazz and vise versa. Fantastic instrumentalists and improvisers. I have a lot more to say about it and your other clips, but sadly used up my time embroiled in the bullshit. As an aside, and along the lines of the often talked about miracle of how Cubans keep all those old cars running, it is miraculous how great those musicians sound on what are, in many cases, second rate instruments at best. Scary to think what they'll be able to do when things finally do improve for Cubans and they are able to play on really fine instruments. And that violin soloist! Omg, she can play like that and look like that! 😊
Jazz for aficionados
Jazz for aficionados
I'm going to review records in my collection, and you'll be able to decide if they're worthy of your collection. These records are what I consider "must haves" for any jazz aficionado, and would be found in their collections. I wont review any record that's not on CD, nor will I review any record if the CD is markedly inferior. Fortunately, I only found 1 case where the CD was markedly inferior to the record.
Our first album is "Moanin" by Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers. We have Lee Morgan , trumpet; Benney Golson, tenor sax; Bobby Timmons, piano; Jymie merrit, bass; Art Blakey, drums.
The title tune "Moanin" is by Bobby Timmons, it conveys the emotion of the title like no other tune I've ever heard, even better than any words could ever convey. This music pictures a person whose down to his last nickel, and all he can do is "moan".
"Along Came Betty" is a tune by Benny Golson, it reminds me of a Betty I once knew. She was gorgeous with a jazzy personality, and she moved smooth and easy, just like this tune. Somebody find me a time machine! Maybe you knew a Betty.
While the rest of the music is just fine, those are my favorite tunes. Why don't you share your, "must have" jazz albums with us.
Enjoy the music.
I'm going to review records in my collection, and you'll be able to decide if they're worthy of your collection. These records are what I consider "must haves" for any jazz aficionado, and would be found in their collections. I wont review any record that's not on CD, nor will I review any record if the CD is markedly inferior. Fortunately, I only found 1 case where the CD was markedly inferior to the record.
Our first album is "Moanin" by Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers. We have Lee Morgan , trumpet; Benney Golson, tenor sax; Bobby Timmons, piano; Jymie merrit, bass; Art Blakey, drums.
The title tune "Moanin" is by Bobby Timmons, it conveys the emotion of the title like no other tune I've ever heard, even better than any words could ever convey. This music pictures a person whose down to his last nickel, and all he can do is "moan".
"Along Came Betty" is a tune by Benny Golson, it reminds me of a Betty I once knew. She was gorgeous with a jazzy personality, and she moved smooth and easy, just like this tune. Somebody find me a time machine! Maybe you knew a Betty.
While the rest of the music is just fine, those are my favorite tunes. Why don't you share your, "must have" jazz albums with us.
Enjoy the music.
Showing 50 responses by frogman
Very good and insightful post, Alexatpos. ****it is not a shame not knowing something, but to remain in ignorance is. Finally, even if someone chooses that he likes more 'simple' or older forms of music, there is nothing wrong with that, as long as one leaves the window for opportunity for future things to come. **** Exactly right. That Jazz Daredevil clip is very funny. Nice to see my pal Scott Kreitzer having a good time with it. I enjoyed the Bobby Jaspar clip. The kind of tune that jazz players love to improvise over with a set of harmonic changes that is both interesting and very comfortable to play over. Jasper is very nice swing tenor player that reminds me a lot of one of my favorite swing players, Zoot Sims; both have a similar approach. Also good to hear Herbie Mann on alto flute for a change. Thanks. [URL]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=P2f2smMowT8[/URL] |
Came across this article about a most interesting study. In some subtle ways (well, perhaps not so subtle depending on one's point of view) the study touches on some of the issues frequently and hotly debated on this thread. [URL]http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/media/releases/the_musical_brain_novel_study_of_jazz_players_sho...[/URL] |
Alexatpos very nice clips. I am getting a sense of your musical preferences and I like it. Thanks for sharing. You might like this lesser known guitar player; one of my favorite guitar players who is seldom mentioned: [URL]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2l1qkAmaa8A[/URL] |
At almost three years of age, 5000 posts and 1.5 million (!!!) views this thread, in spite of the disagreements, bickering and drama is clearly doing something right. The small number of active participants is, I think, an indication of its potential more than anything else. For that, and as the OP, you should be commended, O-10. I also suspect that a lot of these viewers are "testing the waters" of jazz and are potential aficionados. That is the reason that I feel that threads such as these have a responsibility to offer more than just recommendations of favorite jazz recordings based solely on personal emotional reaction when presented as definitve examples of "the best". I believe that the seriousness of the music demands that the commentary, at least, strive to some sort of standard of integrity as concerns the commentary on the relative merits of artists, the history of the music and any other consideration that might help someone new to the art form develop a frame of reference for appreciating the music. It would be a shame if the thread were to become inactive. With that in mind, I would like to offer some suggestions for guidelines for better and less contentious interaction going forward: 1. Avoid BLANKET statements about the supposed superiority of one genre or time period in the music. It should be clear by now that doing so will only result in vehement disagreement that will only serve to derail productive discussions about the music. We all have preferred genres and time periods in the music and should feel free to express so, but to disrespect another poster's genre or time period preferences will accomplish nothing positive. 2. When making statements about superiority or disagreement, accompany the statements with musical examples and explanations to back up the position. Emotional reaction is simply not enough for declarations of superiority applicable to anyone except the person making the comment. 3. Keep commentary factual and not personal. Calling a musician that someone takes the trouble to post a "noisemaker" is personal. Disagreeing about the musical merit of a musician and saying that the reason are x,y&z, accompanied by musical examples is not personal. 4. Avoid "clickish" interaction. Obviously, it is sometimes appropriate to address individual posters, but to have protracted two-way dialogue is inappropriate; that is what pm is for. Be inclusive. 5. Let's all try and have thicker skins when there is disagreement. Remember that everyone has different interaction and writing styles and we should all strive to be more secure with our opinions. 6. Let's put the often used fallback position that some posters are not sticking to the premise of the OP to rest; as if the mission of the thread was ever to only recommend personal favorites and nothing more. The OP clearly states: "then you will be able to decide whether they (recordings) are worthy of your collection". 7. Whenever possible, let's push our envelope of personal descriptive ability . To say "I like this recording better than that recording" is not a "review". Pie in the sky? Perhaps. But, as I have said many times before, I hope we can do better. Here are two posts that I feel are parricularly relevant right now; one recent, the other almost three years old: *******it is not a shame not knowing something, but to remain in ignorance is. Finally, even if someone chooses that he likes more 'simple' or older forms of music, there is nothing wrong with that, as long as one leaves the window for opportunity for future things to come. **** - Alexatpos ****rok2id 3,000 posts 03-02-2013 5:38pm I am so nutty, that I buy some CDs that I know I won't like NOW, but maybe I will in the future. Also, if it's considered a great or landmark recording, I want to have it. Same with Classical. So one day, if my theory holds, I will be jamming to Coleman and Dolphy etc.... Musical taste does change over time.**** |
O-10, I really wish you would stop with the unfounded criticisms and attacks. Disagreement backed by examples and data is not "negativity". Negativity on the part of Rok and, more recently, you is what may have driven some posters away. What on earth do you mean "I turned this thread political"? You are the one who consistently brings politics to these discussions. I don’t know how else to try and impress upon you what it is that causes problems with our interaction. From my vantage point you continue to want to make statements that are factually incorrect and then not have any disagreement. Then, when there is disagreement you accuse the person disagreeing of being "negative" and hide behind the "it’s subjective" idea. I am sorry to say that even your most recent post about music demonstrates the dichotomies and contradictions in some of what you post. I point these things out not to pick on you or to be negative, but in an effort to keep the thread relevant. You have a wonderful way with imagery and descriptions in some of what you write, I appreciate that. But some of what you write is simply not based on verifiable information and is downright misleading to someone wanting to learn about the art form. Example, and this sort of thing happens regularly: "Sal Salvador was the man before some of the current players". For someone who puts so much stock in having hung out with jazz players, you should know what calling someone "the man" means. Sal Salvador was a very good player; but, "the man"?!. "The man", when he was a contemporary of Jim Hall, Joe Pass, Kenny Burrell and others of a higher stature. If he was "the man", what were the others? If fact, and ironically, Sal Salvador’s biggest legacy is arguably as a jazz educator; something that you seem to have no respect for. Additionally, you criticize "classical people" for the way that they talk about Jazz when by your own admission you never talked to your jazz player friend about music. How do you know? You say you never talked to your friend about music and only about "where to get a good bowl of chili". I could say that this explains a lot, but I prefer to point out that I think it’s time to stop the silly tit-for-tat and try and elevate this thread to something better. So, please, don't just get upset and accuse me of "negativity"; please tell me what I am missing. How is Salvador "the man" compared to these other players or current players? Loved the Pettiford clip; great stuff. Thanks! |
Very good Schubert. Truth is that I can be very stubborn; just ask my wife 😊. I assure you that my Dogged Persistence is sincere inasmuch as my idea of the purpose of a thread like this goes. Beyond that, and on a more selfish note, I like words; and, English being a second language, I appreciate an opportunity to improve my use of it. As I grow older and contemplate doing something else with my time, well...who knows? Regards. "Every man prays in his own language and there is no language that God does not understand" - Duke Ellington |
Schubert, not too sure about the saintly part, but thanks for the kind words. The point you make about the connection between the language of a culture and its music has always been one of the most fascinating things in all of musicology for me. I too like Stan Kenton a lot; "Artistry in Rhythm", "Cuban Fire" and others have always been favorites and are true classics. [URL]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YefLht-j7-c[/URL] Regards 😇 |
I feel that big bands have gotten short shrift on this thread. This is probably my favorite of them all; amazing sense of swing, tightness and subtley. The article in my previous post refers to jazz players "trading fours". For anyone who cares, in the first tune of this clip the members of Basie's brass section trade fours. What a band! Check out the interaction between Basie and Sonny Payne (drums) in the opening tune; amazing. Enjoy. [URL]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TgtU0FKHBzQ[/URL] C'mon in Rok, the water is fine! (I know you're out there) ☺️ |
Chazro, I agree that Lew Tabackin is a fantastic player. He is a great tenor player with a distinctive sound; very robust and, to my ear, an obvious Sonny Rollins influence. He is also perhaps the greatest current jazz flutist; with the possible exception of Hubert Laws who plays with a very different style. I've been a fan for a long time. Also a fan of Toshiko's band, but I think you may have gotten the band's timeline backwards. I used to go hear them at Birdland in the early '80s after they moved to NY from LA where the band was started. But I do agree that the NY band was more exciting with more fire in the belly. Loved the Hidalgo Duran clips; thanks! Maestro D'Rivera is unique in that, not only can he move between jazz and classical easily, when he improvises in a Latin bag he plays with an amazingly convincing blend of the Jazz language and authentic Latin feel; not all that common. O-10, some of my favorite tenor playing by Tabackin is not on one of his records as a leader, but on Freddie Hubbard's album "Sweet Return". Highly recommended. [URL]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EhDqaS4L2eE[/URL] |
Alexatpos, very nice posts recently; thank you. I particularly enjoyed the Billy Bean posts. As you point out, Bean is a little known guitarists to most jazz lovers, but a local legend in the Northeast USA area. Wonderful player with a beautifully fluid style who was part of the Philadelphia scene where he served to be one of the great and fellow Philadelphian Pat Martino's influences. To Learfool's post: most major cities or major metropolitan areas in the USA have always had a local jazz guru who many of the famous players have gone to in order to study with them. In Philadelphia it was Dennis Sandole, a guitarist who players like Bean and even John Coltrane went to. The great Pat Martino: [URL]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cyqJwJzGB0g[/URL] One of the most interesting stories in all of jazz lore. Pat Martino suffered a brain aneurysm late in his careerand lost much of his memory and actually had to relearn to play the guitar by listening to his own recordings and studying with the students that he had taught.. Amazing individual and considered one of the very greatest by guitar players. Also enjoyed the Curtis Amy clips, very good player, but I don't consider him, or Dupree, have been (Bean? 😉) top tier players. I agree with Alex that many of these players deserve more recognition and its a shame that they are forgotten, but I will stick to my contention that with a few notable exceptions (Bean) most of the "forgotten" players are forgotten for a reason. Alex's Hot Club Jazz clips take me back to moto_man's recent post re Lionel Hampton. He was discussed early in this thread. One of my very favorite clips from that era on all of YouTube and one that brings a little humor to several of the "Hot" topics of the thread: [URL]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YsJScuVa_HI[URL] Jafant, haven't heard them yet, but I would be on the lookout for Peter Erskine's "Dr Um"; new for 2016. |
Alexatpos, here's one that was forgotten and one who was considered to be in line to be a star ahead of Zoot Sims, Al Cohn and even Stan Getz (Lester Young disciples). He was one of the first swing tenor players to go the bebop route and was a very colorful character who led a very interesting and varied life. He disappeared from the scene to pursue, among other interests, race car driving (!). I will never forget, in 1979, while I was a student at the U of Miami, this old hippie in a pony tail who enrolled in music classes at the Frost School; he caused quite a sensation among the young students. Eager had spent the last several years as a truck driver in Florida and had decided to make a comeback after many years of not touching the saxophone. In the third clip we can hear Billy Bauer who you brought to our attention: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4JAUyaBvuEI https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QYXCfB6bJNA https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UlQxKMHM3Ps |
Alex, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-6XwSWjwbvM Glad I'm not the only one here ☺️. No "pulling back" intended; and, I certainly hope you are not "done" with your posts about obscure players. Sometimes the simplest things have much truth in them: "there are only two kinds of music, good music and the other kind". If you go back to the early days of the thread you'll see how often I posted music that was pre-50/60s and met a lot of resistance and lack of interest. I have often thought the most interesting way to approach these discussions would be from a historical point of view and look at great examples of ALL time periods in the music. I hope that your comment "you of all people" was said in jest since it couldn't be more obvious by now that I don't think any time period is inherently "better" than another. As you will notice I followed with a clip of 'Steps Ahead". As far as I am concerned the clip of Benny Goodman/Lionel Hampton is every bit as "hip" as the "Steps Ahead"; if the quality of the music, not the genre, is the criterion for judging. Some of the most interesting jazz from the 60's was recorded by Lennie Tristano and his disciples Lee Konitz, Warne Marsh and others. Compositions and improvisation that were harmonically very interesting with unexpected twists and turns. Much of it had a West Coast vibe to my ear, but it was very much a product of the New York scene. Again, Billy Bauer can be heard on this: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RK4U0Q3LbWE |
Alex, great posts! That Lee Konitz record is a classic. And Teddy Edwards sounds fantastic. Love his tone and reminds me of Hank Mobley in his sense of swing. As far as I'm concerned you decide when there's enough West Coast. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uDAvmIyW2VI btw, I just discovered that we no longer have to frame the link with [URL]'[/URL] |
Thanks for the Phil Woods clip, Acman3. Interesting rhythm section; very good, and with a unique feel. Some may disagree, but just as Latin players playing straight ahead jazz sound a little different than American jazz musicians, I suppose it would be the same for Japanese or any other nationality. This is not a racist thing at all, but a simple observation and as it should be, given the differences in the various cultures. Subtle, but it's there. I liked the intro and how it borrowed from Miles' "Milestones". O-10, "Harlem Nocturne" is one of my favorite tunes and is to every alto player what a tune like "Body and Soul" is to every tenor player. Very evocative melody. I need to try and find out who the alto player is on the Duke version; doesn't sound like Johnny Hodges. Alex, thanks for those Shelley Manne clips. Great stuff. Richie Kamuca was a very nice player who is not a heard very often. |
O-10, I love these YouTube mysteries. The alto player just doesn’t sound like Hodges to me. In fact, the band doesn’t sound like Duke’s band to me; especially the baritone saxophone which doesn’t have that wonderful huge sound that Harry Carney had. So, like you, I set out to get to the bottom of it. First of all, "Harlem Nocturne" was written by Earle Hagen for the Ray Noble orchestra as a tribute to Johnny Hodges and the Ellington sound; which explains why another orchestra might try to sound like Duke’s band. Still, close but no cigar. Eventhough it is often erroneously assumed that it is actually an Ellington tune, there is practically nothing written about a Duke recording of HN, although there are a couple of references to Duke having recorded it; but, no details. Strange. While I will, for now, stick to what my ears tell me, I could be wrong. But, I found this; check this out: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0nrk2YLGKXg And this: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j3sFkxSh62k Exact same recording, both times, as the one credited to Duke in your post; this time by the Ted Heath orchestra. Fee-fi-fo-fum! One last comment re the alto player on the recording. The very last note of the tune: no way! That is not a Johnny Hodges vibrato. I don’t think the recording in your post is by Duke at all. Thanks for the opportunity to do a little sleuthing. The tune was detective Mike Hammer’s theme, after all😉 |
Sometimes classified as a "West Coast" player, Stan Getz was much more than that and defied classification. Brilliant, and what a sound! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=g61l27gdXYQ https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=az-NfhfL_-k "Let’s face it, we would all sound like that if we could" - John Coltrane Btw, Alex, I still like Led Zep; amazing band. |
Czarivey, I think you may be mistaken. Bob Mintzer never played with Weather Report. He played bass clarinet (as well as saxophone and EWI) with The Yellow Jackets and he did play in Jaco Pastorious' band; Jaco was a member of Weather Report. Mintzer is, without a doubt, one of the most talented modern jazz musicians. Great composer, arranger, author and fabulous instrumentalist. I posted some of is work here quite a while back and he was unfortunately deemed a "noise maker" by the jazz police. He is, after Michael Brecker, perhaps the best of the post-Coltrane style tenor players. Schubert, you made a very astute and interesting observation: Mintzer has not only studied Classical music extensively, but Classical definitely informs his writing (and his playing). Among many other things, he composed a work for saxophone quartet and symphony orchestra premiered by a quartet that I was a member of and a major orchestra. He's quite a talent. |
O-10, I don't understand what your constant beef against higher education is? Considering that only recently there was a heated disagreement about this very subject, and one that snowballed and ultimately led to Rok "leaving" the thread, I can only assume that you either have an extremely short memory or are simply interested in being provocative and stirring the pot. I suppose it would be simpler (not easier) to just roll my eyeballs and say "there he goes again with his anti-Juilliard cliche", but as I have said before, I think that a thread like this has a responsibility to be factual and not mislead. Your premise is in error; or, at the very least, very incomplete and shows a lack of understanding of the place and role of an institution like Juilliard in the music world as a whole. We are all entitled to our opinions, but some explanations are in order. For anyone interested here are some facts: First of all, Juilliard is not considered a top jazz school like Berklee, North Texas, U of M and others. While Juilliard has a fine jazz program, it is a very young program and the school continues to be primarily a Classical music school. Many top and well known jazz players attended Juilliard, but they didn't necessarily attend the school to "learn to play jazz". They attended to learn things like advanced counterpoint, composition, orchestration and pedagogy in order to be better-rounded and more complete musicians. Of course, attending Juilliard does not guarantee that the student will become a great and individualistic jazz player; and, of course there are many great players that never attended Juilliard or any other music school. To say that attending Juilliard will guarantee being a good jazz player with good "jazz soul" is no more absurd than to say that learning "in the street" without a more formal education will guarantee that the player will be a good jazz player. There are far more really rotten jazz players that never attended a music school than there are rotten jazz players that did. The main problem with your premise is the implication that NOT attending a school will be more likely to guarantee having "soul"; an absurd implication. So, you have heard examples of your premise "101" times. How about some examples of players that you have heard that have attended Juilliard that you don't consider to be good jazz players? Who are you referring to? Otherwise, how do you know? And when you provide a couple of examples I would be glad to provide some examples of "street" jazz musicians who are simply not very good; and I will detail my reasons for feeling that way. Thanks for the Leon Thomas clip. Greta stuff; been a fan for a long time. What did you think of "The Peacocks"? |
O-10, who? Who?! Examples please. Since you can't provide any I will assume that you're making this stuff up. I guess, then, that Phil Woods is not a great jazz player; news to me. Sorry, O-10, no straw men; simply going by what you write. I think that this business of the superiority of the "street player" is the worst cliche of all; and really, if one considers that literally only a handful of well known jazz players attended Juilliard, does this issue deserve for you to keep bringing it up in an attempt to somehow cast a negative light on an institution that does so much good work? Talk about straw man! Sorry, O-10, when it comes to this stuff you simply don't know what you're talking about. In the meantime, if you're interested in discussing Johnny Hodges' style and sound so you can identify him when you hear him I would be glad to; I have lots of examples. Rolling my eyeballs now. |
Honest question, O-10; and for the sake of, hopefully, interesting discussion. What was it about "The Peacocks" that you didn't like? From my vantage point it is a beautifully evocative and impressionistic melody that showcases Getz's highly expressive abilities. And that sound! To add to the expressiveness is Getz's brilliant use of the "clacking" of the keys of the saxophone to, in case anyone didn't catch it, mimick the fluttering of peacock wings. No multiple choruses of improvisation and, in keeping with your premise of singers not butchering a tune, just "singing" the melody. Was it detective Mike Hammer that used to say "the facts, mam; just the facts (of a melody)"? Pure artistry, imo. |
Interesting role reversal here; love it. It was O-10 who would take on the role of peacekeeper when you and I would lock horns. Regardless, peace is good! So, thanks. However, re "the real deal": NO WAY! Of course, some artists resonate to any one of us as being the real deal. The point of contention is whether the "street" musician has a leg up on some sort of "authenticity". Sure he can; in some cases. That musician can also be authentically bad. It all needs to be looked at on a case by case basis. If it isn't obvious by now that generalities of that kind are fool's folly, then it never will be to some. Times change, the street changes. Are we comparing the aesthetic values of musicians and music from sixty years ago when a kid wasn't even able to major on saxophone, never mind jazz, to those of the present. It always comes back to whether we are open to the music of the present or not. Sorry guys, but your scope is simply way too narrow. It may be one's opinion but it is not rooted in reality. What was that great quote from Alex? Will get back to you with that. |
Rok, that you invoke "your God" speaks volumes about your sense of grandiosity. I said it early on in the thread, what is missing in many of these discussions is a bit of humility; humility that acknowledges the fact that there is much to learn. One of the things that I find particularly humorous is that you would think that I am demanding minute details; and, along the same lines, O-10's comment a while back: "if you want to learn everything there is to learn about music get an encyclopedia". Both humorous because, not only are these "minute details" that I am supposedly demanding, in fact, very general and not the least bit comprehensive, but the notion that an encyclopedia (any encyclopedia) contains anything but a fraction of just how much there is to learn about music is silly. Re "authenticity" and "good/bad", the fact is that you and I are saying very similar things. O-10, I have misinterpreted nothing about what you wrote. I suggest that a big part of the problem is that there simply is not enough clarity in what you sometimes write and it might be good if you step back and consider what you wrote before clicking on the "Post" tab. Example: first you refer to these Juilliard musicians as "playing only cliches" and not possessing "soul". Then later you state that they are "good jazz players, just not great players". Which is it? A jazz player who plays only cliches and has no soul cannot be a good jazz player by any standard; and obviously not a great one. Would still like to know what it was about "The Peacocks" that you didn't like? Personally, I would much rather discuss music than the "politics" of it. Oh yeah, who is it that brings "politics" to this? 😉 Regards. |
****when did Frogmam become the Bible?**** No, no! It's not me that invokes God. Sorry, couldn't resist 😇 Bolton, "good as the best"? Good as Clifford, Miles, Hubbard et al? Not a chance in hell. Oops, did it again....well, maybe that was ok 😈 In very very rare cases are these guys as good as the best. I think we are inadvertently touching upon the problem here; at least a big part of it. Did someone say narrow scope? C'mon Rok, stick to your guns, I'm sure O-10 will eventually forgive you. |
Well, a "signature" tune is simply a tune that an artist performs in almost every engagement and is readily identified with; nothing more, nothing less. I am just as sure that Strayhorn (and Hodges) would be flattered that a great player like Getz would "appropriate" his composition; just as I am sure that Getz meant to disrespect to the supremacy (imo) of Hodges's performance. All of our personal indignation is really pointless in this case. See, Rok, as in the first time this came up, we do agree sometimes. I simply prefer to look at the glass as half full instead of half empty. |
Leon Thomas is a blast from the past for me. He was a fairly popular singer in the early 80s. He recorded and album with Cedar Walton ("Soundscapes") which I stilln own which got quite a bit of air play at a local jazz radio station in Miami during that time. He is also known for his stint with Basie's band and stints with some of the avant gard musicians of the time. Interesting singer with that quirky yodeling thing of his. |
A few recent topics, Johnny Hodges’ immediately recognizable (should be) sound and style, Stan Getz, and music that evokes an emotion other than "happy" beg a revisit of what is, along with "The Peacocks", one of the most evocative melodies ever written. Ohnwy61 reminded us of the differing opinions about whether it was Johnny Hodges, for whom the tune was written, or Stan Getz, who made it a kind of "signature" tune, that did the tune justice. Gorgeous melody written by Billy Strayhorn while literally on his death bed: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-N7WoBI5ABk https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ckls62nZHw |
Schubert, sorry to hear about your terrible experience. I hope that somehow you are made whole by the Agon system or by some other means. As others have said, I hope you reconsider your involvement here. Your opinions on the music are valued and they show a level of discernment and appreciation that is refreshing. I particularly appreciate how your expertise in your preferred genre informs other genres of interest; as it should be since, at their most basic levels, the similarities are greater than the differences. |
O-10, in your haste to disagree with me you miss the fact that we are, in fact, in agreement about "Blood Count"; and "The Peacocks", for that matter. You found it dreary; I can understand that. I, don't mind "dreary" and appreciate the artistry, dreariness and all. And speaking of "relevance", what is the relevance of the comment about the "study" of jazz to the subjects at hand? I was I see none. Ohnwy61, in a rather clever turn, reminded us about a prior conversation here about "Bloodcount" and the tune was resurrected. The relevance of his opinion or mine (again, same as yours) is no more and no less than, say, the many comments by you about which version of a given tune is the "best"; as you have expressed many times. Now, is it really that hard to see how and why these discussions turn unnecessarily negative? Don't you think it's time to stop the bullshit? There can be strong opinions and vehement disagreement; but, as I have said before, let's try and thicken our skins and avoid the silly and provocative innuendo, sarcasm, and silly tit-for-tat, I think the thread would benefit greatly. |
****Should / does the name and music have any relationship? Should a person be able to hear and follow the theme or subject indicated by the name?**** Should? Grandma used to tell me: "there are no "shoulds" in life". In seriousness, should the name of the music....? Probably not, although I think it's much better when it does and I think the best tunes do. Does? Often it does. 1. Sometimes it's obvious and the music follows, as you say, the theme indicated by the name. 2. Other times it's a very "inside" relationship that only the composer of the tune is privy to; and, may want to keep it that way. 3. Sometimes there's no relationship whatsoever and the title is random or may relate to a person or event without the music itself relating to that person or event; I think this is the exception. 1. Obvious: - "Take Five". The tune is in 5/4; five beats to the measure. - "Watermelon Man". HEEEEEEEEEY WATERMELON MAN - "So What". Eight note bass lick followed by the two note motif by the horns: SO WHAT! - "Ceora". First three notes of the tune are clearly deliniating the three syllables of the title. - "Take The A Train". YOU, MUST TAKE THE A TRAIN - "Salt Peanuts". SALT PEANUTS, SALT PEANUTS 2. Inside Well, if it weren't an inside thing we would know, right? 3. - "Ornithology". No clues in the music itself, but since the word means the study of birds.....duh! "Bird", get it? - "Bitches Brew". Couldn't imagine the connection. - "Billy's Bounce". Obviously relates to Billy (?), but I don't hear it in the music itself Often, a composer has an experience or sees somehting that has some kind of impact as in the case of "Watermelon Man". I heard Herbie Hancock describe that very process in how he wrote the tune; he saw a man selling watermelons. Fewer times the composer writes a tune and then "looks" for a title that he feels somehow relates or chooses to leave the choice of title completely random. BTW, I think your overall assessment of Thomas is spot on. |
The LCJB is held in the highest esteem by the NYC music community; as well they should be. They sound great and are considered to meet artistic standards, differences in genres aside, that have nothing to apologize for in comparison to the standard-setting LC institutions, Met Opera, NY Phil and NYC Ballet. Re body language: Totally sincere. Players in a band that work together often and for a long time develop a kind of brotherhood and they are each other’s biggest supporters. They can also be each other’s worst critics. But when a player is "in the zone" as Wes Anderson is when he plays his solo in the Porter clip, other players may not only smile in approval, but actually say or shout things to encourage the player. When players improvise they are speaking each other’s language. It is a language that only they understand at that level. They understand the nuances of what the player is "saying" in a very personal or intimate way and are privy to things like, for instance, little musical "jokes" or musical quotes that relate to anything from a verbal conversation to a previous performance; all things that may not be obvious to a non-player. A performance by a band may be full of these kinds of dynamics. Of course, there are times when any two players simply don’t get along or don’t like each other and you won’t have much of this kind of rapport between them. Thankfully, simple professionalism then usually kicks in and gunplay is kept to a minimum 😉 Porter sounds fantastic. There’s a wonderful straightforward and "up" quality about his singing; not to mention great vocal chops. The band sounds fantastic. Something special happens during that performance; they are clearly interacting and lift each other up. The sum becomes even greater than the parts. I have said it before and this is a PERSONAL opinion: Salvant just doesn’t do it for me. She’s clearly good, but the "affectations" in her singing simply don’t ring true for me. There’s a little bit of Sassy, a little bit of Billy, a LOT of Betty Carter; where’s Cecile? To me there’s a "forced" quality about her style. Imo, and partly as a result, the performance doesn’t have the energy that the Porter does and doesn’t feel as good; the band does not play quite at the same level. Great stuff both, however. Thanks for the clips. |
****let's talk about Jazz bassist...Was there anyone of significance prior to Scott LaFaro?**** You bet there was. Duke Ellington's bassist Jimmy Blamton was very influential . How about Ray Brown, Paul Chambers, Milt Hinton, Charles Mingus, Wilbur Ware? And of course the already mentioned Pettiford. LaFaro was a pivotal figure in the bass world but hardly the first important bass player. Re jazz musicians and money: don't know much about Grant Green the person, so I don't know about his particular situation. I do know that the lifestyle of jazz musicians does not promote good money-management habits. Being in the road all the time is very difficult and can lead to bad decision making that can affect your pocket book. Think about it: who is more likely to save his money and possibly even invest some of it? The guy who is on the road all the time and who is dealing with the endless temptations of life on the road or late-night gigs; or, the guy with the stable home life and family? Re Mingus/Take The A Train: Agree that Mingus had a very tight and well rehearsed band. But for the sake of perspective: I would bet anything that for that performance of A Train they probably did nothing more than talk about the order of the solos. No rehearsal. Not a criticism, but a testament to the experience and talent of the players involved. There's no arrangement to speak of and rehearse; just play the melody after the traditional piano intro, everyone takes a solo and there may be backgrounds made up on the spot. For guys like that, playing A Train is like a great chef making scrambled eggs; at a very very high level. Again, not a criticism at all, but simply to point out that it's pretty standard fare; a popular tune that everyone knows and can play in their sleep. Still, great music and great playing. Btw, that solo by Dolphy is deliciously strange. Rok, Ghosthouse is exactly right; Anderson is conducting. Specifically, he is counting down the last couple of measures in the last chorus of the tenor solo so that the band can all come back in at the right time. While it would normally be Wynton's job to do that, Anderson is in the front of the band where he can be seen by all. Glad to see so many great posts. |
Acman3, I had the pleasure of performing Britten's "Sinfonia Da Requiem" with Van Sweden a few weeks ago here in NY. He was well liked by the orchestra. He was very personable, clear techniqe, very energetic, and no "vibe"; very straight forward guy. Should be a good marriage. Whether it will be a good long term match remains to be seen. |
O–10, the KOB documentary should be required viewing for every jazz fan. I seem to recall a debate here about the relative merit of KOB. If the comments by the various jazz giants in that documentary don't dispel any notions that KOB is "audiophile candy" and nothing more, then I don't know what will. It is a monumental recording in jazz, and the fact that it has been adopted by the audiophile community as a fave should be applauded. Imagine if the closest that audiophile favorites got to jazz were Diana Krall! It's a fascinating video offering many interesting insights. The comments about music are actually pretty basic and, imo, every serious music lover should strive to understand, at minimum, what is talked about in the documentary; I think it would be a great goal. Thanks for posting it. Alex, nice clips featuring Horace Parlan; very good player and probably underrated although he is highly regarded by musicians. Have always loved Stanley Turrentine with his distinctive sound and vibrato. One of the players who "went commercial" but whose work always had a lot of integrity; hard not to love the way he played a pop ballad. I agree completely with Acman3 about the importance and role of bassists and drummers; and love the football analogy. I would even say he is being a bit gentle with his dissent. While the contribution of a bassist or drummer MAY be more subtle than that of the player in the frontline, it may be as important or even more important. I can't imagine Mile's 60's band with any other drummer than Tony Williams and his unique synergy with Ron Carter, or Trane's "A Love Supreme" without Elvin, or the Thad Jones big band with any other drummer besides Mel Lewis? All added, in their way, just as much to the sound of the band as the headliner did. Speaking of Scott LaFaro, what would the whole concept of the modern jazz trio be without his huge contribution in developing the "conversational" style of playing (as opposed to mostly "time keeper") that became the sound of the Bill Evans trio and would influence just about every other jazz bassist that followed? Listen to Herbie Hancock talk about that single cymbal crash in the intro to "So What" on KOB. Great clips of Blanton with Ellington, and while they show how far jazz bass players have come in the virtuosity and conceptual departments, there's not much one can say when the playing is simply "right" for the music at hand; simple, tasteful and great sound. Great stuff. On the other hand Abdul Malik just doesn't do it for me. Very rudimentary player who in my opinion is riding the "lets do something different" wave; probably with a bit of political correctness to support his efforts. Some of the improvisation on those clips is almost embarrasing. It's not the choice of instrument (oud) that's a problem; it's the command of the jazz language that is. Quaint, in a way, for its marriage of jazz and a Middle Eastern vibe, but its not good jazz nor good Middle Eastern. Speaking of marriages, Rok, that of Johnny Hodges and Lawrence Welk is indeed a strange one. I have that record and when I first bought it, I had high hopes for it in spite of the Lawrence Welk presence. Don't get me wrong, I think Welk's band could sound great for what they do, but this just doesn't work. Simply a little too much grease in Hodges' playing for that band's vibe. As much as I hate to say it, I think the problem is Hodges and not Welk. On the other hand, I have always felt you shortchange Metheny. He is a great musician with a very wide range and his partnering with Ornette is really not that much of a stretch. Landing in ten minutes, so want to post one of my favorite bass players (as a sideman): https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y8PjvxET91U https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zgmUWTAhsa8 |
****I can't see why everyone is so "ga ga" over Miles, when Blakey's Jazz Messengers had the best music and musicians by far.**** O-10, that's the kind of statement that, especially on the heels of you posting that great documentary about KOB, will certainly raise some eyebrows. Any one jazz fan may like the music of The Jazz Messengers more than that of Miles, but to declare that they had "the best music and musicians by far"? Really?! We could dissect that statement and look at the musicians: "better" than Coltrane, Cannonball, Bill Evans, Philly Joe, Wynton Kelly, Paul Chambers, Ron Carter, Tony Williams, Herbie Hancock, George Coleman, Dave Liebman, Chick Corea, and on and on..... and, "by far"? I think that assertion merits some sort of explanation. The music: Your documentary and the comments by all those jazz giants do a great job of explaining how just one single recording by Miles both defined and changed the face of jazz more than any other. As I have suggested before, there just might be something to what all those great jazz musicians have to say on the matter....just maybe 😉 . There has been so much written and documented about how Miles was one of the great guiding forces in the evolution and history of jazz than just about any other musician that it frankly seems silly to get into it here; a quick search will bring up more info than one can absorb in one siting. A better way to perhaps answer your question is to consider that if one listen to The Jazz Messengers from their inception all the way to when Wynton was in the band, you'll find very little difference in the music; hard bop. Great hard bop, but fairly traditional hard bop at that. Now, listen to Miles' various quintets; all different, and all great. Dont get me wrong, Blakey was great even if he was not my favorite drummer; I prefer drumming with a lighter touch. He was also undeniably a great "school" for a lot of great players; and so was Miles, if perhaps and arguably not to the same extent. However, imo, to compare Blakey playing "Nica's Dream" to Miles' "Nefertiti" is kinda pointless; apples and oranges. The playing, within the respective styles of the music is on an equally high level; and, on "Nefertiti" more complex harmonically, making it more interesting to listeners with a certain sensibility. But, if play the game I must, I'll take "Nefertiti" any day. Regards. |
If one believes that jazz (or any art form) should stand still and that change in jazz is something that is "perpetrated" on the music, rather than being the natural and inevitable process that is the product of a truly creative mind, then it becomes very difficult to appreciate something that may not be in our comfort zone . I love the way that sometimes seemingly unconnected themes in these discussions connect. Recently the subjects of the role of drummers vs frontline and the relative importance of Miles have come up. I mentioned "Nefertiti"; Miles' last all-acoustic record. The tune "Nefertiti" nicely connects a lot of dots. Here is a tune in which the frontline simply plays the haunting melody; the horns don't solo. The tune is all about the drums; it's almost like a jazz concerto for drums. And what drums they are! Tony Williams sounds fantastic and solos throughout the tune as a horn player would traditionally do. THAT is but one of the reasons that people go gaga over Miles. He had an incredibly creative mind and tremendous vision for new sounds and ideas. One may not like all those new sounds and ideas; but, for whatever it may be worth, check out the KOB documentary again and listen to what some of those guys have to say. https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLdhGk7gKuZxbOipdilbqLR0ck2GseBAEg&v=Qzib_oUoyrw |