Jazz for aficionados

rok, one obvious example, Round Midnight -

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=round+midnight+vocal

Now for Dolphy fans, here is a review from Michael Fremer on a new 3-record release set.

https://www.analogplanet.com/content/deep-connective-tissue-resonances-eric-dolphy-musical-prophet-3...

acman, didn't you see the news over the weekend?  "Baby It's Cold Outside" is being banned by several radio stations from their holiday music lists because of the "won't take no for an answer" theme and what that implies.

In response to mary jo, here's an older release with top talent to get started, and it should be safe because no lyrics!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5U5HpTqOTDQ

First off, I noticed o10 has recent comments on other A'gon sites so know he is current, even if not posting much here.  But I feel a tip'o'the'hat is due his way for beginning this discussion.  It is approaching 1.5 MILLION views and has over 15,100 posts.  Absolutely NOTHING in the Music section comes close to this activity.  Of course in addition to o10, thanks also go out to all the regular contributors who continue to share their knowledge, information, and finds which make this site so fun and interesting.

frog, it is fascinating to see which stories major news media choose to cover.  Without intending to divert into a political discussion I'll just comment that it strikes me that ABC World News seems an odd combination of hard-hitting coverage of important events while including other stories almost attributable to National Enquirer in the same broadcast.  Maybe they are simply trying to reach the broadest audience possible?

Back to jazz, frog you posted my favorite version of that holiday classic as well.  But I must ask, are those same radio stations now banning "I Saw Mama Kissing Santa Clause" for all that "implies"? ;^) 

One of schubert's links led me to this.

I think if Count was any more relaxed he'd doze off.  Still, it swings pretty well - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCx5_-P4EH4

alex, sorry for the delay in replying to your question of the state of jazz in the US when I was growing up.  First, three qualifiers: I don't pretend to have expertise on this so it is strictly my perspective; second I grew up located between Detroit and Chicago, but in a much smaller community so I didn't have the greater exposure either of those cities might have afforded; and third, I was born in 1942 and graduated HS in 1960, so that is my framework for "growing up".

As a pre-teen my musical exposure was mainly recordings played by my parents.  My step-dad was in a small dance band when young and favored popular jazz from the '30s -- Armstrong, Teagarden, Nichols, Hot Club of France (ones I remember).  He would sometimes sit down for a "record session" from his 78 album collection after dinner, just for relaxation.  That's probably where I got my own listening habit.  My first concert was at age 10 or 11 when my parents took my brother and me to hear Louie Armstrong and his All Stars, an experience I still treasure.  All this was during the late '40s and early '50s but I didn't have any exposure to the jazz being produced at that time.  I only offer this for personal background.

By the mid-'50s I became a teenager just as rock and roll was emerging as the dominant popular music, and I became a fan.  However by the time I was in HS my musical horizons were expanding and that included contemporary jazz.  For one thing, there were a few detective programs on TV plus movies that featured jazz-themed scores, "Peter Gunn", "77 Sunset Strip", "I Want To Live", "Anatomy of a Murder", etc.  You might sometimes hear jazz on the radio, "Take Five", "Poinciana", songs from the "My Fair Lady" album by Andre Previn, Shelly Manne, and Leroy Vinnegar (best selling jazz LP for several years).  But jazz remained at a second level in popularity behind rock and roll, pop music, even soundtracks.

Into the '60s, rock became even more dominant in the overall music scene, enforced by the British Invasion.  Jazz slipped in popularity, in both record sales and concert attendance, which forced many musicians to alter their style.  By the end of the decade even Miles changed when he formed a band based on electronics and released "In A Silent Way",
followed in early 1970 by the game-changing "Bitches Brew".  Other musicians followed that lead by forming fusion bands which typically were a blend of jazz and rock.

So the musical style most accredited to America never became considered our most popular or influential music.  In fact a look at popularity by musical style finds jazz perpetually down the list, struggling along with classical to maintain some sort of foothold.  For those of us who love it that is a sad situation.  Yet it is encouraging to find recommendations here for young musicians who obviously are carrying on the tradition of the music.  It may not be overall a strong state, but it seems to retain the strength to be a steady state.

I hope that was of some value in providing answer from my perspective. 

Some things new, and some old. For those who don’t bother reading Stereophile, here is their primary jazz reviewer’s list of top albums for 2018.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/best-jazz-albums-2018

There has been a bit of discussion on this site about the value of new artists and current direction for jazz.

I just received this link from a friend.  It is a PBS special which addresses this issue.  It runs nearly 1 1/2 hours so I've not watched it myself yet.  But knowing some others may be interested I wanted to offer it right away.

https://www.pbs.org/video/reel-nw-icons-among-us-jazz-present-tense/

acman, you post many links which I enjoy.  But that Gene Ammons just hit a special "groove".  I loved it.

acman, a favorite CTI?  Absolutely -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTwb-SJ_qK8

alex, from a quick listen (not all the way through) I liked it, the Middle Eastern flavor is interesting.  But then I often enjoy something out of the ordinary of my normal listening.

o10, I read that Miles recorded on the spot while watching the film on a monitor, all extemporaneous.  If true, more testimony to his genius.

o10, so was Miles about 15 years older than you?  You've shared a few stories about common experiences growing up.  But it must have been frustrating to never meet the man, given your love of his music and so much from that time.

On a different track (so to speak) on another site someone mentioned not liking any jazz recordings with a full string section.  I agreed and this is the only exception I can think of --

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXxybiV4Pxs&list=PLfOleD7-7Oj90W890D0puroQgM7yTR-0P

This is interesting so I'd appreciate seeing perspectives from others who listen to jazz from this era.

Within an online discussion today I was surprised to read, "Before and during World War II, jazz was the dominant cultural musical idiom in the U.S., much like hip-hop still is today, albeit in vastly mutated form."

Now "before the war" was even before my time, but in my interest for jazz history I have listened to a bit from that period, along with recordings I heard my dad play.  In my perspective (meaning all I've read and learned) jazz has never been the dominant cultural musical idiom in the US.  In fact it seems to be considered second-rate music by the general public at any point in time.  The period it possibly held the highest regard with the average public was during the 1920s.

My association of the most popular music from the late '30s and during the war was crooners and big bands, like Glen Miller and the Dorsey brothers.  I don't really consider that to be jazz.  Ellington, Basie, and certainly Cab Calloway experienced growing popularity, but not at the level as those others.  But then there was a time when Paul Whiteman was called "The King of Jazz" by some, so definitions can be quite different.

o10, of course I didn't mean frustrating at that time.  How could you have known?

I was asking about your feelings after you were older and became a burgeoning "jazz aficionado"?  To realize you knew some of the same people and had many of the same experiences there as someone you admired so much must have had some impact, at least some disappointment you never met when he came back to visit.  I'm sure I would have.

Thanks o10, I appreciate the insight.  While I've read a couple of bios and watched a few videos on him, I never came away feeling I learned much about the real person.  It seemed he was always maintaining that veneer as you said.

frog, your comments about time just showed again how much I don't understand in music.  I've heard of musicians playing ahead of or behind the beat.  Intellectually that makes sense, but I can't say I can identify it when it happens.

Sometimes I'm surprised I enjoy music so much since I seem to know so little about it. :^(

alex, why should taste in music be any different from other experiences in life?  Fortunately we males are not all attracted to the same characteristics in women.  Individually we favor different foods.  Art and literature are varied and each type appeals to different people.

With music, like most things, I expect a big influence is what we grew up with, what is familiar.  As we grow older then tastes of trusted friends can have impacts on us.  From there it becomes a difference of personality type.  Some are happy with what they know, so they stay with that.  Others are more restless and seek out new things, as much for change as anything else.  They tend to evolve more as their circle of taste expands.  What we like or don't like is the result of individual personal experiences up to the present moment in time.  

Others here might suggest different reasons. 

frog, can you talk about playing ahead of and behind the beat as I ask above?  Thanks.

Good news for Monk fans --

https://www.npr.org/2020/06/19/880564012/a-previously-unreleased-thelonious-monk-concert-is-coming-n...

You can never have too much Monk.  He may have repeated his repertoire, but in true jazz fashion each playing was different.

In response to frog's reminder.  From Woody's album, "Road Father" --

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HX7gRe8XZUg

frog, I have that Morello LP.  But it is not yet unpacked from a move nearly a year ago.  Maybe now I'll have the energy to finish unboxing!

Thanx to all for the good wishes.

Well, I’m not pouting, just offline a few days for something more important. ;^) I don’t post as regularly as many of you anyway so not likely noticed.

I March they found a couple of problems with the ole ticker. But with the pandemic underway by then no procedures were being scheduled. Finally last week they got me in for two corrective procedures and now all appears to be well. So, tick-tock, tick-tock, normal rhythm is back.

My atrial flutter may have looked like this -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsGSxbAB3qk&list=PLD5A89EEDBA7E2073

o-10, glad to see you back in the circle.

frog, congrats on your perseverance, so glad you made it.

Regarding your selections, I never heard Satch play that before.  But I recognized him immediately.  Then, in spite of the strings, I enjoyed the Haden (a little barb for your other recent comments).  Here's another bass tribute for today --

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZ6iWQrBYhA&list=PLEDOkLl5hFdTk6VvtpBf_smVjUunK0aP7&index=7

Hi all, I've been away from this site for some time.  That was a combination of health issues, preparation for a major move, and recently the move itself.  But today I noted frogman's name among the Recent Activity below the Topics list so decided to check in.

Unfortunately what I found was extensive off-topic discussion and name calling that I objected to previously.  No I'm not the "posting police", but I can do without that.  International politics and social injustice are critical issues, but there is a place for that discussion, and I don't see it being this jazz site.  So I may check in from time to time but as long I find much discussion other than jazz then I'll choose not to linger.

Now just to make a music comment myself, I'll say I was pleased to see discussion on Etta James.  Her tribute album to Billie Holiday is one of my favorites.  Cheers!

o10, I had an interesting reaction to "Speak Low", although I've certainly experienced it before.

This applies to songs with lyrics since that establishes the context.  To me, "Speak Low" suggests no more than a moderate level (duh!) and a slow rhythm.  Sonny's version was too quick paced, so lost the meaning of the song.

I appreciate this may be a personal thing, so may not a problem for others.  But for me that is an important part of the "interpretation" of any song.  The tempo sets the mood and the mood should match the song, particularly when there are lyrics to guide us.

Another example, can you imagine any real, heart-felt blues played at a fast tempo? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SP5JHLqXM8

jrosemd, I like your list.  Those three are among my overall favorites as well.

Now, being Sunday, here is a follow up.  For me, along with a walk in the woods or by the seashore, music can bring me closest to finding spirit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXijK-JlULg&list=RDcXijK-JlULg&start_radio=1

mary jo, if you are bothered by "a thin line between fiction and nonfiction", then I suggest you don't read Mingus' "Beneath the Underdog".  That certainly stretched credibility, but I found it highly entertaining none the less.

So instead, maybe a bit of his music, an early version of this one -

https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=Mingus+music&hspart=att&hsimp=yhs-att_001#id=15&...

pjw, thanks for that addition.  I'd not heard it before.

Like nearly everything, it's personal, and I enjoy Mulligan more.  But I still like Adams and appreciate his playing.  A great rendition there.

O10, no, not trite at all.  See if this helps my point.

Had I never heard words to "Speak Low" then my feeling for any rendition would be based on the musical merits, other than what the title might suggest.  But once I've heard the lyrics to any song then that hangs a context on it for me.  That specific lyric suggest a subdued, intimate conversation.  Your quoting those lyrics just reminded me for whatever of them I'd forgotten.

With that, Sonny and friends might have offered up a great number, except I was preconditioned for the mood simply based on knowing something of the words.  So I found his tempo out of sorts, being too fast it was not intimate at all.

The tempo can be a major element within the number of things that make up an individual interpretation and his version simply didn't mesh for me.  To further my point of my perception I offered another example.  For me, solid blues with a lyric of lament is best taken at a slow pace and I picked that Albert King rendition to demonstrate. 

You may see it differently but I hope that helps explain my view.

Did I miss it, or has there been no discussion of the new Coltrane album "Blue World"?  OK hard to say much until one hears it but I expected to find talk of great expectations. ;^)

https://jazztimes.com/blog/previously-unreleased-john-coltrane-album-debuts-september-27/

I did hear about one minute in the car on Sirius but that wasn't much to judge by.

I know rok, almost afraid to mention it. ;^)

I'm in a rut, more Mingus music.  But not by Mingus hisself.  This time by the Mingus Big Band, a tribute group.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxz9eZ1Aons

Thanks frog.  So now my question: which came first, Weill's music or Nash's lyrics?  I could see the music influencing the character of the lyric if Weill composed that first.  Similarly if he was inspired by Nash's lyrics first then they in tern likely influenced his chosen tempo.

I hope I'm not splitting hairs here and can understand if others don't find this meaningful.  For me it is simply something I've always felt in judging a performance.

mary_jo I appreciated your tribute to Morricone.  For my taste he was one of the best.

I'll draw attention to my favorite among his works, "The Mission".  It was not only well suited to the film and music I never tire of, but, dare I admit, as an audio hobbyist that became one of my best (most revealing) audition recordings.
1.  My LP is wonderfully recorded with natural instrumental tonalities.
2  The album includes a broad variety of music, from symphonic and choral to simple acoustic pipes and percussion.
3.  It offers wide dynamics and very good bass extension.
4.  The soundstage is huge, extending outside the speakers.
5.  It's fun!

But a caution.  A few audio buddies heard it on my system and were impressed enough to buy the CD.  Sorry, no comparison to the LP.

frog, I had a problem loading YouTube links for awhile, so I was late listening to your Corea's Children's Songs post.  Do you know of anything else similar to #1?  It sounded familiar but I can't place it.

It wouldn't be out of place in a French film soundtrack. ;^)

Thanks pjw, I've read multiple references to Baker's interest in jazz but never followed through to find examples.

But one question, why is it called the Ginger Baker Trio when there are 7 musicians? ;^)

Hey frog, yes I certainly saw your answer to Children Song #1, so thanks for that.  I have "Crystal Silence" but have not listened to it in years* -- maybe that was the familiarity?  I need to check out your other references.  And thanks for the greeting as well.

pjw, I also need to take some time with your Baker links, so thanks for those too.

Getting settled into my new home is taking longer than expected.  I've still not set up my music system!  Plus other references here have been coming fast and furious here lately.  Thanks to all.  As the song goes, "I'm Over My Head"!!

*  Before moving I sold a little over 2,500 LPs to a local audio store.  That included a lot of good jazz.  But at my age how much will I still have time to listen to?  I did move over 1K LPs, including a few hundred jazz favorites, so hope to begin enjoying those soon,  

In English it's called travesty!

mary_jo, your Black Coffee link was a memory lane trip.  About the time I started college I joined the Columbia Record Club.  The promotion at that time provided maybe 8 LPs.  One I selected was Sarah's "After Hours" which included "Black Coffee".  Luckily I stumbled upon some albums which became classics with my selections.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAwSrc4u6z8

But now with much of this recent discussion here I may not be back for awhile, not that that should matter to those who like non-jazz posts.

Forgive me father for I have sinned .  .  .  .

When I began collecting records (for the music) I had a Steelman suitcase style portable with a 3" speaker, 4-speed BSR record player, "flip over" needle for LPs and 78s, AM radio, and some tiny tube amp with 2-3 watts if I was lucky.  I didn't know any better.

Some years later in college a couple of friends put together "hi-fi" systems by buying each piece separately rather than something all-in-one.  By that time too stereo recordings were common.  I was blown away by how much better music sounded on their "systems".

Thus started a long and slippery path of selecting and upgrading individual components for my own system.  I will admit that after many years I reached a point when I spent as much time "obsessing" over my system as I did listening to music.  Then I came to my senses.  As much as I enjoy the musical presentation of my system it is the music itself that provides the real pleasure.  

mary_jo, thanks for adding the Melodious.

An interesting thing.  While he most often recorded his own tunes, for me there is a special appreciation when he performs a song composed by someone else.  I think that may be, when it is a known melody such as "Don't Blame Me", the special Monk "treatment" is even more revealing of his approach.  His own compositions have that inherent in them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJ4DrrgMiUk

In this one he really hits his "stride".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKAMNaGO5Y4

pjw, an interesting question and I'm surprised not to see any following comments:

"I often wonder what the great trio's of the 50's and 60's would sound like using 21st century studio's, equipment, and engineers."

No doubt there have been technical advances in recording equipment.  But at the same time many aficionados continue to praise older recordings.  Is that because of tube rather than solid state electronics?  Fewer mics utilized rather than mic'ing each instrument as is typical today?  Simpler mixers (fewer channels), and thus less complex electronics?  And how about the older recordings being made with everyone playing together at the same time, no individual instruments added separately?  I suspect a combination of factors.

On the other hand, some aficionados prefer the additional detail, extended frequency range, and quieter background possible with modern gear.

Regarding engineers I believe great examples can be identified from 40 years ago or more and today at the same time, same for studios.  So that comes down to the individual recording.

Just to muddy the water around your question, consider than with older recordings many prefer the mono releases of a given recording over the stereo version.  Anyone surprised by that can check current prices for many Blue Note mono recordings compared to stereo released at the same time.

So for me the answer to your question would be, yes it could sound different, but not necessarily better.

Right frog, my comments were of a broader scope than just trios as pjw ask about.  I should have acknowledged that.

schubert, I'm a Viet Nam era vet, but not a Viet Nam vet.  I saw much of that country via aerial photos but thankfully was never there.

I was in college for just over two years before joining the Navy.  That included being on campus the fall of 1962 during the Cuban Missile Crisis.  There was great patriotism on campus then with many talking of dropping out of school to join the military if necessary.  Compare that to the fall of 1966 when I returned to finish my degree, attitudes and society seemed to have changed completely.  When I started school the Student Veteran's Association was a respected group.  When I returned, even though some students wore military surplus fatigues, anything otherwise military was shunned.  The societal changes over that four years were so great it was stunning.

Sorry for the interlude, as I've complained myself about non-jazz discussions.

Just to be clear schubert, I'm well aware what a foolish and unnecessary waste of lives and resources the Viet Nam war was.  No disagreement there at all.  But my point was about more than the patriotism exhibited in fall 1962 compared to the disillusionment and unrest four years later.  It was the change in social perspective and involvement over such a relatively short period of time.  It took a mistake as large as VN to do that.

Now, back to some music -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCDMQqDUtv4

I don't play, but a trumpet story a few might enjoy.

I discovered a friend in my alumni club played trumpet in the marching band while in school and continued to go back each fall for the alumni band reunions.

Now those of you who may be old time audio hobbyists should remember the name Robert Fulton of FMI (speaker and wire manufacturer).  It happened that Fulton had a band background and in fact had invented and produced a trumpet mouthpiece, aside from his audio products.

One day in casual conversation we touched on audio components and I ask my friend if he ever heard of Bob Fulton.  Not only did he know the name but he owned a Fulton mouthpiece.  He said he had tried several and only the Fulton produced the tone he wanted.

Here's another trumpeter who favored higher registers, initially in jazz with Woody Herman, then later (presumably to make more $) in rock -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbQHNrCotcc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgDg_C0GqrQ

frog, I heard "Rhapsody In Blue" a short time ago by my new "local" orchestra, the Kalamazoo Symphony (which is much better than expected for a smaller community organization).  The guest pianist was Kevin Cole and it was an energetic and delightful performance.  But rok beat me to answering.

o10, for your interest in current women in jazz, would you say Melody Gardot belongs on that list?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKDj-OVJ6hc

Also your watering hole story about Ferguson was not surprising if it was toward the end of his life.  How many elderly horn players still hit the high registers in their later years?

o10, this slips in some country you might enjoy.  I bought the CD after seeing it on PBS years ago and still like it a lot

https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?hsimp=yhs-att_001&hspart=att&p=rhythm+country+and+...

What happened here?

Over the weekend I posted an experience where more than half the audience walked out of a Miles concert in the '70s after he went electronic.

In that I also posted a link to a great Ben Webster album in response to a prior comment.

Today I looked back at page 367 to see where I left off but it is no longer there.  In addition there is no note about a message being removed.  So does anyone know how or why this happens?