Clio, keep us posted on your findings. I like my Aries. I am still screwing around with things. I run a faux NAS via a Mac Mini using Minimserver and have wondered if dedicated, audiophile grade NAS would be better in terms of SQ.
My gut still tells me that a true flash drive transport such as the one being created by Lessloss will crush everything we are currently using.... |
09-13-14: Cerrot
You guys will find that usb is the poorest interface. Glad to see the experiment because the masses were given USB from the beginning and with blinders firmly installed, have never looked past it. The belly button interface - every computer has one. Must be the best way to get sound out of a computer-NOT. Look at what travels along a USB bus - all the pollution Why would I want my music coming put of a USB port? Some guys are at least investing in a USB PCI or PCIe card, which is a thousand times better than the standard usb port. Agreed, but it can by hacked with galvanic isolation, etc. Also, a good USB cable that filters noise is a must. A standard USB cable is deficient IMO.... |
10-15-14: Knownothing
The fact that the original topic merits 6 pages of discussions verifies that this is an important issue in modern HiFi, and still very unsettled. The fact that it has morphed into a discussion about critically important implementation of somewhat arcane data standards, transfer and management techniques indicates that getting data off a computer HD has attained a level of complication for our community on a par with tracking force and tonearm-cartridge compliance. Welcome to the new Black Hole Source. precisely.... |
Does anyone remember the sound of the reel to reels? Remember the density? Mmm. and Any analogue source (if done right) gives you warmth and emotion your brain needs to "make up" when listening to digital. Cheers, mate. Density and fluidity with detail. That is indeed missing from most digital front ends. If master tape is not a sonic frame of reference, you don't miss it. Perfect sound forever....:/ |
10-20-14: Audioengr
Also avoid ALAC, AIFF and FLAC files. Only the Antipodes server plays these as well as .wav. On all other servers and computers I have heard, the SQ is inferior to wav.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio I have tried to convince myself of that. Barry Diament (recording engineer of some renown) did blinded comparisons of master files in either AIFF or WAV, and there was no discernible difference. |
How can 'computer audio' be a bust? The audio world has barely scratched the surface of what is possible with digital recording, much less storage and reproduction from computers. Its a rhetorical question for the sake of discussion. Its a bust to some people based on perceived SQ deficits.... |
10-21-14: Audioengr
"Barry Diament (recording engineer of some renown) did blinded comparisons of master files in either AIFF or WAV, and there was no discernible difference"
So what? Steve Nugent did the same comparison and found a significant difference.
This is entirely system and track dependent. Recording studios are notorious for compression and using inferior playback systems for their mixing.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio Barry is an audiophile/engineer so that does not necessarily apply to him. His current hi rez recordings are some of the best I have heard. I myself go back and forth on this issue. I think AIFF is better than Apple lossless, and depending on my mood, I also think WAV is a little better than AIFF. If you analyze people's opinions on SQ superiority of WAV versus AIFF or any other format, its a coin toss statistically. What does that tell us? The next time you have a dinner party, do a blinded test for your guests and see what you get. I trust non-audiophile ears more.... |
0-21-14: Ptss
Agear I did not intend to be confrontational or flip. I had considered your question as serious I assumed that but wanted to make sure... I am hopeful the best is yet to come from computer audio I feel the same. Sky is the limit, but much of it is embryonic. Again I ask "would adding an original Alpha Dac make a worthwhile improvement to an Oppo 105D?" (And what would be the ideal interface?) There's only one way to find out. I assume it would. I heard an Exemplar Audio modded Oppo and it was very good. John Tucker, like Steve at Empirical, does very good work and is an actual engineer. One question I have for Mr. Nugent is why are current dacs overwhelmed by incoming jitter. Overcoming jitter is their raison d'etre. Is this an engineering shortcoming that we even need Overdrives, etc? |
10-22-14: Audioengr
What does that tell us? Its obvious to me based on 15 years of listening to systems at trade shows and in salons. Most systems are not resolving enough or low noise and distortion enough to make these differences obvious. I have heard a number of reviewers systems as well. Same thing, unfortunately. Most systems simply have a preamp that creates so much masking and compression that these differences cannot possibly be heard. Good active preamps are like hens teeth. That is most likely true although I know that Barry Diament did uses the Metrum Halo ULN-8 as a dac/preamp. That's a pretty ruthless unit. |
10-22-14: Audioengr
Current DACs have difficulty reducing jitter to inaudible levels because this is a difficult engineering challenge, even for seasoned designers. It always has been. The jitter on S/PDIF inputs on DACs is generally reduced somewhat by the receive chip, which uses a PLL to recover the clock from the datastream, but a low jitter input to this receiver chip is still beneficial. Other DAC designs use resampling chips and circuits to establish a new master clock. These can reduce jitter even more than the receiver chip, but there are two downsides: 1) they inpart their own kind of distortion due to way that the resampling algorithm is implemented 2) the new master clock and associated circuitry/power supply adds its own jitter.
Thes best solution for reducing jitter in a DAC is to put a master clock front-end on the DAC. There are two types of these available now, the Async USB interface and the network renderer. Both of these effectively discard the clock in the source computer or device and generate a NEW master clock.
if the power, circuit design and clock selection is optimized, the jitter can be extremely low with these input circuits.
The thing to understand is that these are not easy to design and its really esy for lots of jitter to creep back into the circuit, even if you u a Femtoclock etc..
also, jitter is never reduced to zero as some manufacturers would have you believe.
Jitter when characterized by a single number, such as RMS jitter is an inadequate measurement. Jitter has a spectral component as well as a distribution of amplitude. these are actually more important than any single number to predict if one jitter is more audible than another. Interesting. In your opinion, is jitter management or the lack thereof the stumbling block to true analog reproduction? Also, what are your thoughts on grounding and jitter production? I know someone in the industry who says a lot of standard grounding schemes are woefully inadequate. Finally, do you have any thoughts on the software codeveloped by Vertex/Nordost that supposedly measured system jitter? http://www.stereophile.com/rmaf2010/nordost_and_vertex_measurements/index.html |
10-23-14: Phusis
It seems this discussion veers into the overly academic. To my mind computer audio is certainly not a bust, on the contrary it's here to stay and to my ears trumps CD-playback (where same CD is ripped to harrdrive) in a pretty obvious fashion On the contrary, I know quite a few philes who would argue with you after having done both. I have heard computer fronted systems sound like crap even with whizbang dacs and big money ancillary pieces. |
10-27-14: Phusis
"State-of-the-art CD transports vs USB/SPDIF converter shootout:" Yet another BADA advert....:) Needs to blind a bunch of philes at an audio society meeting and do the same test. It would not be as black and white as one reviewer making pronouncements from the mountaintop.... |
10-27-14: Audioengr
I dont even have any CD player in my reference system, and its one of the best ones on the planet.
You need a formal system page then. Since the room is 80% of the equation, what have you done in that regard. Also, what is the best way to store and then stream files to ones dac? Ethernet? |
11-08-14: Mcondon
Well, if the sound of the PS Audio Bridge is representative of what Ethernet has to offer, count me out. I thought the Bridge, which streamed audio via an Ethernet connection, sounded awful. The PS Audio Perfect Wave Transport was miles better in sound quality, but is not the last word in high fidelity. When I read claims that Ethernet audio is or will be superior to computer audio, my gut reaction is just to stick with a CD transport until a big, reputable audiophile manufacturer comes out with a "plug and play" server that rips CDs, provides storage for backup, is easy to control with an iPad, and sounds stellar without the need for a high cost USB-SPDIF converter. It cannot cost what Lumin charges, and it cannot be from a "mom and pop" operation with one or two people on board. Maybe I am a Luddite...but I don't work in IT and so the inconvenience of getting a computer or Ethernet source up and running seems worse than the inconvenience of getting up from my chair to put a CD in a transport when I want to listen to music. End of rant. So are ethernet streamers a bust too? |
10-28-14: Tbg
I find no worthy points being made on this thread. I see the computer as the wave of the future with data coming from internet downloads. No need to torture yourself by returning to it then...:) "Computers" are not the future. They are an evolutionary stepping stone until audiophile manufacturers catch up. Steve is ahead of the game due to his background. Many others have a mere rudimentary knowledge like may of us endusers who learn as they go. |
|
A dedicated server and Roon should be enough to cure most people of the desire to go back to CDs. Ever since I started streaming wirelessly back in the early 2000s (using iTunes as interface), the thought of going back to plastic spinners has never entered my mind. Roon is iTunes 2.0. Just incredible. |
I held off upgrading my computer audio til something made it worthwhile. It has. I stream my own flac files from a NAS, but find myself listening to thousands of flac files from Tidal now. NAS or Tidal wireless to Ethernet switch, optical isolators, AQ Ethernet cable to Sonore Microrendu with ROON core on sonic orbiter. To Shiit Yggy DAC to Cary SLP-05 preamp to BAT Rex II Amp to Dali Helicon 400 MKII speakers. I compare this with my vinyl from Music Hall MMF 9.3 TT. The streaming files are REALLY close to the vinyl. Well good for. Sounds like a page out of the Minerva playbook which was well documented on WhatsBestForum. I now use a custom Intel NUC built by Minerva Audio out of Canada which is a competitor of Sonore. Beautifully fabricated with a top notch switching made by a Japanese medical instrument company. I run Roon off of my iMac along with HQplayer with DSD 256 up sampling to an ethernet switch, optical isolation, etc. Sounds very good. CD spinners are a thing of the past unless you are a geriatric technophobe. |
I think AOIP (audio over ethernet) is the biggie here. USB is simply terrible for audio period! I have found at my cost it is the big bottleneck to PC audio. Look at a RedNet 3 and feed it from a decent optimised PC or Mac and you are done. Beats any CDP for sure. I believe that is by and large true. However, much of the USB receiver implementation in most dacs is poor. Proper galvanic isolation, separate power supplies, and even a batboy USB cable goes a long way. Sonny Anderson at Phison has achieve this by and large: http://www.phisonaudio.dk/home/ A step beyond Vitus, Merging Technologies, etc IMO. A well designed dac should theoretically be impervious to input issues when properly engineered. |
|
