How do you get the "real" feel of music?

Not that I'm here to just slam Klipsch or shill B&W, Bob B., but I have to disagree about your assessment of the 801's dymanic capabilities. First, let me say that I am a big promoter of the idea of higher speaker sensitivity, and would not personally buy a speaker with less than at least "average" sensitivity (86-87dB range), and would like my next pair of speakers to go even higher if possible. I also think that increased system efficiency is more responsible socially from an energy consumption point of view. I myself don't want to own monster power amps, to deal with their size, heat, and cost, or to feel that I need to play my speakers at concert levels just to make them wake up and come alive.

But potential system dynamics have to do with more than just speaker sensitivity. If you have the power to feed your dynamic monitors, and they can handle it, then more than satisfactory results are possible. I have heard systems based around 801's, or Wilson Watt/Puppy's, for instance, that can virtually punch the listener in the ear (and the gut), because sufficient power was available to drive them. One could make the augument, however, that the use of such high power - or the design of the drivers to be able to make the necessary excursions - might possibly compromise some other, more subtle aspects of the sound in a trade-off to get those astounding dynamics.

I was glad to see that Thiel brought out their newest speaker, the smallish 2-way floorstanding CS 1.6 (which sound fabulous, BTW), with a much higher, for them, sensitivity of around 90dB. Maybe this will point the way of the future when Thiel finally introduces the long-awaited replacement for the standard-setting CS 3.6 (I hope they banish the utra-low impedances, too).

Whether they employ horns or not, I believe speaker makers should make a serious effort to provide products that pay attention not just to response characteristics, but also to higher sensitivity, moderate-phase and -value impedances, and just as importantly, flatter overall impedance curves, so that audiophiles can more successfully utilize a wider range of amplifiers with most speakers. Amp designs, tube or SS, that do away with using negative feedback to achieve conventionally acceptable damping and output impedance figures can, in my experience, "un-box" the sound to a similar degree as high-efficiency speakers can - but at the potential cost of more colored response, when used with typical impedance-characteristic speakers (horns included).

For me personally though, it's more the dispersion properties of horns that keeps me away from them (I like mine wide), than any preconceptions about "colored" sound. I guess I weight this preference more heavily in my choice than superior dynamics, but that's obviously not going to be right for everybody - and I would of course love to have it all (but can't afford it!). Happy listening :-)

Hi Zaik your points are well taken & are nicely explained. My rec's however were also meant to be taken within the context of Beetle's existing equipment - he's using "affordable" hardware vs. the 'pricier' equipment that you suggest, which may be beyond Beetle's reach at the moment.
"I'm not rich, and I don't want to hear, 'Scrap all your sorry equipment and get a...'"

Thanks folks. I especially appreciate the comments of Bob-bundus, Jameswei, and Pbb. What I think I'm hearing is that I'm after greater dynamic range?

There were a couple of suggestions I'd like to comment on. The first is using processors. I'm afraid of processors. I've found they blur the music rather than sharpen it. My only experience with sound processors has been surround-sound, DSP, and reverb. I hate reverb. To me, listening to music with reverb is like eating filet mignon with manure on it. Sure, the filet is going to turn to manure sooner or later, but don't add any to it to start with.

And BTW, wasn't that the reason for 5-channel digital? To quit trying to artificially construct the "real" feel of music without the added coloration of DSP? Or is 5-channel a home theatre gimmick? If it's a gimmick, I got snookered.

I'm not sure how a dynamic range expander works, but I like the idea of an equalizer. Unfortunately, I've found an equalizer setting that works for one genre is terrible with another, or even between recording companies.

Second comment. I bought the Parasound because it was a relatively inexpensive, high current amp that I thought could provide the sharp transients of percussion. I still think it was a good purchase. It's a world better than the HK, which was two worlds better than the JVC I owned three years ago. Regardless, thank you all for sticking to the no-"scrap it all"-rule.

Third, my system does sound best a loud volume, but it's too loud for the little room. It's also a very brassy sound. I'm guessing the tile floor, picture window, french doors, and leather sofa don't help that much.

Lastly, my speakers do sound better with the grills off. Likewise, my car gets better gas mileage and runs faster with a fresh coat of wax.

But seriously, the dynamic range expander idea intrigues me. Can it help or is it foolishness? Or would it be better to get different speakers, even if restricted to under $1000 a pair (and the crowd laughed)?

Beetle a dynamic range expander is just another 'fix' (like Eq) that you'd be better off without, keeping the signal path cleaner & simpler; 2 fewer pairs of cabling for the signal to go thru as well, not to mention their extra cost. But if you want to try one I'll 'loan' you mine; it's been out of my rack for years now. It's a Phase Linear model 1000; shoot me an email if interested. I used to use it for fixing up bad tapes when I did some vocal-cassette "production-master" dubbing jobs.
Regarding your bright room-response; yes you've pretty much figured out the reasons why - too many reflections. Wall rugs, floor rugs or carpet, stuffed furniture, window treatments, those basic sort of things can help a whole lot.
Yes you want greater dynamic range; speaker replacement will go a long way to getting you there. Cabling synergy & some other tweaks will also help, but I'll not get into that right now as you really need to address the basics first.
Your speaker budget mandates used equipment to get much of anything decent, but hey that's OK. Many of the above suggestions are certainly worth exploring.

An Expander is the *opposite* of what you want! Most live music today is played through a PS/SR system that has both dynamic limiters and compression. Expansion will make your system sound *less* dynamic for 99% of the program material!! (it's the opposite of the intuitive for this one)

There are two main things to gettting a "live" sound in your room:

1) bandwidth - you need a lot of bandwidth, especially on the bottom
2) output - you need enough output with low enough distortion at the high enough level.

These add up to: low distortion at peak levels.

Then you need really GOOD recordings and signal chain to get them to your speakers.

Keep in mind the size and space of the venue that you are hearing the "live" music in. That makes a *huge* difference in the perception of sound!! IF you really want a similar experience you may need a physically larger listening room, and there is no direct substitute.

It is true that a good horn system (not all are "good") will have what I call "jump factor" out the yin-yang compared to other speakers. This can be one way to get more "life" into the playback, but horns too generally sound better in larger rooms.

Small speakers alone generally do not give a "big" sound with high impact because of limited headroom, distortion at higher levels (peaks too) and limited LF response.

Getting the sound of live acoustic music and voices is the holy grail of hi-fi anyhow, and it is extremely difficult to even get a good facsimile thereof...

Welcome to the world of audio! :- )