Hi Bubb, I think you are in for a shock as to how much better your system will sound after proper breakin. Like I said my B&W's sounded absolutely terrible for the first 250 hours or so, and then things suddenly clicked. Another thing I noticed: the sound doesn't progressively get better over burn-in. There are days where things can sound worse than the prior day. So don't judge until you get over 250 hours!
The arguments you make about cables are exactly the same arguments that all cable skeptics have made for ages (quality of cable in your house to your outlet, etc). The counter to the last meter of cable mattering is exactly that: it is the final meter before going into your gear. Source equipment, in particular digital equipment including computers, are VERY electrically noisy, and can pollute your entire house's AC circuit with noise. Having an upgraded power cable connected to such equipment will help prevent (not eliminate) the noise that gets fed back into your power circuit which can degrade the power feeding your amp. Likewise, an upgraded power cable feeding your amp will help filter out the AC noise that gets fed into your Diablo's power supply. Also, there is a ton of electromagnetic noise around your gear. Having extra shielding around the "final meter" will ensure this noise doesn't pollute your power entering your gear. Also, any noise introduced before the final meter will be filtered out. I am not expecting to like all three cables I am testing. Just because they cost more than the cable I'm using currently doesn't mean I will like it better. The point is, different cables sound different. You may very well try one that costs a lot and think that it sounds worse than a lower end cable. What you need to do is find the one that suits your system and tastes - you do not necessarily need to spend a lot. But you absolutely have to try some different cables with your Diablo and B&W's, or you could be severely bottle-necking performance. The thing about most cable skeptics is most have not tried different cables back to back in a controlled test. Once you do, the differences are so obvious, and sometimes the differences can make the sound terrible, even with expensive cables!! You just need to try a few. One last thing: the power cable to digital source equipment can make a larger difference in sound than the power cable to your amp.
|
|
Thanks all and I cannot argue with any points/suggestions/advice. What I can do is ignore it :) Much to my families annoyance, my amp and DAC module are fully burned in having about 425 hours on them now. Someone else said that Gryphon told them the amp requires 50 hours and the DAC module requires 200 hours to burn in. So yeah, I think I’m past that point now. According to my dealers who loaned the cables, they promise that the demos are all fully burnt in, but I can only go by their word of course.
Making cables is an option, but you can only go so far, and certainly not as far as building something like the Valhalla’s with their use of airgaps as dialetrics, silver-coated solid core, etc...
I don’t disagree that ALL of the cables cost way too much, even including the Frey’s. But hey, all audiophile gear is insanely marked up. Take Gryphon’s phono board for example, not to pick on them. There is NOTHING on that board that should make that board cost more than $500, yet they charge over $3K (CAD) for it. However part of the cost is for R&D spent on designing and testing of course.
Inna, you are spot on with the Valhalla 2’s filtering out SOME of what my Gryphon can do. On the other hand, I don’t think the Transparent Reference’s filter out anything at all, and presents the sound in its full unadulterated glory. I would call both the Transparent’s and the Valhalla 2’s "hifi" cables intended for audiophiles. But, I would say the Valhalla 2’s sacrifice a tiny bit in terms of filtering, in return for making the experience more musically engaging. What I am saying is I think this is a matter of taste. I suppose I can be called an "audiophile", but only because I started out with an enjoyment of music. For those who value transparency above all else, of the cables I tested the Transparent References are for you. They present a grand soundstage, ultra-clean sound and solid bass, with perfectly presented tones. You get a sense of the blackness behind the music.
But if you are the type that is willing to sacrifice SOME of the accuracy and transparency for musical engagement, then I say the Valhalla 2’s are for you.
If all I cared about was technical "performance" of my system, the Transparent would win hands down. These are not just sterile analytical cables either - they are highly enjoyable as well. But, I can’t imagine finding a cable that increases my enjoyment of the music as much as the Valhalla 2’s. And,many qualities of the Diablo are still present - the "physicality" of the instruments, the detail, the impact of tones, the dynamics, the rhythm and pace. All of these items cannot be added by the Valhalla if they weren’t there to start with in the amp, and with these qualities in combination with the velvety smoothness, high-end openness, and driving pace, are accentuated more than with the Transparents which translates to more enjoyment for me. There is something magic about the combination of the fine inner detail combined with the warmth. Not to mention, you get the illusion of vocalists being in the room with you the most with the Valhalla's.
So Inna, I can see how you and others may pick the Transparent’s. It is my tastes that just make it an easy decision to go with the Valhalla’s.
And Bubb - you need to get some demo cables. I think hearing the differences, even if it goes in the wrong direction, will be an eye opener. At the level of your gear, in my opinion you should be carefully considering cables or you will be potentially missing out on a massive amount of performance your system can offer. Both the Transparent’s and the Valhalla’s were almost the equivalent of changing a key system component like an amp or source. I think it is Nordost that are always telling people to treat cables as if they are components like a source or amp, and after hearing the difference their stuff makes, I agree with this even if it is marketing BS.
Finally as I said in my other thread I actually am very happy with the sound with the Diablo/Valhalla 2 combo. I no longer feel any need to upgrade my speakers. That will probably change but for now, I think I’m more than okay with my system! Even if I do upgrade my speakers, these same cables would likely be what I’d be able to try with them in my area.
|
Can't disagree with that; it's a lot of cash. Way too much. But the counter to that: the difference I heard, at least to me, is the same as the difference between the Diablo and the other preamps and amps I tested. It is that large.
Cables are excessively marked up. I do wonder what the actual cost to the manufacturer is. With Nordost, I'd speculate that they sink a large percentage of corporate revenue into research and development. And the cost to manufacture is probably peanuts, yielding massive margins.
Even when you look at the Diablo itself, or any high-end equipment, I can't see how it could possibly cost more than $3-5K for them to manufacture a unit. But on the other hand, I bet these companies spend a lot on R&D and testing. Bringing a product to market costs a lot.
|
I won't be leaving mine on all the time, although I have been through burn-in, which is done now! Bubb the hifi market is comparatively small. Many dealers and distributors are not selling expensive equipment on a daily basis, so I'd expect they need to make a lot of margin when they do sell stuff. That's the way it goes I guess..... One of the things about my room is, I don't know what treatment you could even do. My system is literally in a wide open space. Room corners are far away from both the speakers and the listener, and then I have the vaulted ceilings. There are no walls nearby to apply treatment to within reasonable proximity the way things are. Not to mention, where I live it is not like I could get anyone qualified to assess my room for improvements. I know room treatments make a difference, as I've had unworkable rooms in the past where it was impossible to get the sound right without treatments. But I just don't know how to go about it considering there is no one local that I could consult with and, there simply is not a lot I think you even can do with my room layout.... The difference with the cables was WAY beyond what I'd call squeezing the last performance out of my system. Both the Transparent and Nordost cables were a complete overhaul of the sound, in a positive way! Having heard what this can bring to the system, it is not going to be possible now to unhear this, and be happy with the sound without the upgraded cables! As I said, the magnitude of difference was the same as I noticed with the Diablo over other preamps and amps. Complete overhaul of the sound. But only if power cords AND speaker cables are part of the equation. The one thing I am doing to see if I can take SOME cost out is one more test: Instead of using the Valhalla 2 biwire jumpers for the 2nd speaker terminals, I am going to try the Nordost Reference jumpers, which cost way, way less. Dealer says he thinks both jumpers are just as good but have difference style of sonic presentation.
|
Kerisabe, I will make a point of trying the granite thing, once I’ve sorted the direction in cables out. I don’t want to change anything else while testing different cables. I’ll have to stop by the counter-top store or Home Depot and see what I can scrounge. I don’t feel I am lacking in bass currently, but now I’m curious.
Can I ask, what made you consider trying this out? Just wanted to protect your floors, or was this approach suggested to you? It seems counterintuitive to mate spikes with a smooth impenetrable surface upon which you would think would allow movement and thus cause some loss in control.
And yes there are a lot of well known Canadian HiFi brands. Bryston, SimAudio, and others. I didn’t realize Torus was.
By the way, I tried a home demo of Classe equipment when I got my speakers a number of years ago, and found that my comparatively cheap Arcam A-85 integrated easily beat the Classe stuff. Didn’t impress me at all, despite B&W owning Classe. Although that particular Arcam amp was very highly regarded for punching way above its weight and didn’t sound anything like other Arcam amps (a good thing). Also Bryston had impressed me a bit up until the point that I heard the Diablo!
One other thing worth mentioning - despite being more than happy with my system’s sound now, with the 803’s I’m guessing are holding back the Diablo. I think it likely deserves more spendy speakers. But I’m more than happy for the time being and my system is now better than anything else I’ve heard, other than a hair of missing transparency due to my current cables which will be upgraded shortly.
|
Congrats Kerisabe and thanks for the tips. Yes spiking my speakers to the floor is on my todo list, but it will be the final step after I get everything else right, to ensure I only need to do it once and only need to make eight holes in my floor (and not 16 or worse!). I will experiment with your approach as well, with hard material between the floor and speakers. But I don’t see how this should be better....
I haven’t looked into or heard of this cable option, but I’ll check it out!
Hopefully you had a chance to try the Diablo before buying. Seems that some who read this thread are buying before listening, which is a bit dangerous. Having said that before I bought mine I think I only came across one instance in a forum where a guy bought a Diablo (could have been prior model?) based on what everyone was saying, without hearing it first, and he didn’t like it. Like I said I’ve only found one case of that happening, but still as great as the Diablo is it is a lot of cash to spend without first hearing it! For those that don’t have a dealer nearby, consider traveling to the closest dealer. Safer to spend a bit more and be sure.
For me however it is still the best thing I’ve ever bought, HiFi gear or otherwise.
Regarding the Luxman 509 comparison I don’t know. Others have told me the Diablo can drive any speaker, has a more engaging and “live” sound, with better bass. On the flip side, I’ve heard some say that the Luxman is sweeter with a slightly more “musical” midrange, but is not as engaging. I believe Denon1 has owned both, and said he prefers the Diablo. But take my comments with a grain of salt as I’ve not heard the Luxman.
|
Interesting comments about the vocals. During my burn-in, I had thought at one point the vocals seemed very good, and highly detailed, but ever so slightly “back” in the mix. Wasn’t sure if I was imagining it so I didn’t mention. This is no longer the case and hasn’t been for a while now. Not sure if things actually changed, or I just grew accustomed to the sound! The effect was very minor for me.
Do do you have the embedded DAC module in your Diablo? The DAC requires much more burn-in than the rest of the amp does. |
My packing list said it included the polish cloth, and also plastic polish as well. However, no polish was included. My dealer says Gryphon told them they found that the polish they were previously including "dried out" too much and they don't have a solution as of yet. I thought they meant it dries out too much when unused over time, but my dealer insisted there was an issue once the polish was applied to the amp. So if you have the polish, I guess I wouldn't risk using it.
|
Also Kerisabe, regarding your MacBook, not sure of WiFi streaming vs Ethernet. Try it out? Beyond that, there is a very large rabbit-hole of mods to your computer you can make to make real improvements in sound (power supply, hard disk, USB tweaks, etc). But many who have started down that path have realized the time and money to get to a point where they have an audiophile-grade music streamer/server is not worth it when you can purchase a dedicated streamer that has all the benefits for the same or less cash. So that’s what I did - still waiting for my Innuos Zenith MKIII to arrive. And still using my Mac Mini with Audirvana (which I recommend) until then.
Interesting that optical from the MacBook is better for you. Not sure if my Mac Mini has an optical out to try that.
|
The Diablo internal DAC module may or may not be the right solution depending on your budget for the DAC and also your sonic preferences. You can easily spend 3X the cost of the internal DAC and potentially get better sound. I find the internal DAC is to my liking in that it takes the Diablo's base sonic signature, and goes a bit further in that direction (solid, fully formed vocals, "bigness" and a prioritization of presence over the highest degree of detail, timing, and precision). This following review is interesting as it notes the distinctly different sonic differences between the Diablo internal DAC and the highly regarded Chord Hugo TT2 which is more tight and analytical sounding (with less presence and fully formed vocals) according to the review. It makes it clear why you should test and see what you like better, as some may prefer one versus the other, and others prefer the opposite. https://www.pursuitperfectsystem.com/gryphon-diablo-300-integrated-amplifier--dac-review.htmlHow do the Antileon and Mephisto's sound compare with the Diablo 300's sound? |
Thanks for the descriptions of the Antileon and Mephisto. Wonder which I'd prefer; they both probably sound amazing in different ways. Never going to happen and I'm more than happy with my Diablo however! One thing about using the internal DAC, is that you utilize the cool flashing blue light on the front of the Diablo that tells you that the DAC's super-capacitor is charging up for a minute or two (depending on how long it's been since the last use). When the light stops flashing, the USB voltage supply of your streamed source is no longer used as the voltage supply for the internal Gryphon DAC, which is supposedly a good thing. Not totally sure I have that 100% correct, but it's something like that.
Not that it should influence your decision in any way whatsoever; just thought it was worth mentioning. And, I think I've only imagined, on a few occasions, hearing an improvement in the sound when the blue light stops flashing and you hear a tiny relay click!
|
Whatever gives the Diablo its signature sound, I really like it, even more than when I first got it. I listen to it almost daily so I start to take it for granted, but probably few times a week it totally takes me by surprise and reminds me how great it sounds. Just thankful I came across it as I would have been unhappy with anything else that I tested. There was not even a close runner up (although I suppose there probably would have been if I had unlimited options available to test). I am still amazed at how composed the sound is at low volume, and how there are no recordings that sound bad on it, as is the case with a lot of high end gear. I agree with describing the signature as dark (or rich and full bodied if you prefer), but if I read that I’d think that would equate to slow and bloated, only because of past experiences with equipment that was leaning to the warm side of things. But the Diablo is quite the opposite- lively, big, fast, and highly detailed. I did read an interesting review of the Diablo from 2020 that made a lot of sense to me. The reviewer said he thought the majority of the sonic signature came from the internal DAC module. He said the Diablo DAC sounded big and lively, whereas the Chord Hugo TT2 connected to the Diablo made it sound cool and crisp. Here is the review: https://www.pursuitperfectsystem.com/the-gryphon-audio-diablo-300-integrated-amplifier-with-dac-revi...At some point I’d love to get a pair of Wilson speakers for it, but that will be quite a ways off I think!! I’d also love to get a second Diablo, just in case something happens to mine! |