Brian,Jactoy,1MarkR,Tbabb,David and others who will attend the 12/19 shootout:
I did not realize 12/19 was a Sunday. Bad day as I usually attend church and do house chores to prepare for the work week. Why don't we re-schedule for the 18th (Saturday)? That makes more sense I think. Saturday is usually most people's blow off day for leisure. Please let me know.
Brian and Jactoy, what is David's Audiogon name? Is he following this thread? Brian, I'm thinking since you have limited room at your place we should do it over David's house if he's agreeable. Additionally, I understand from Jactoy that he has a very high end system that is very revealing and may serve as the best "testing ground" for our shoot-out. Finally, I don't know how he feels about moving his very expensive Meitner gear to another place.
Is everyone agreeable to this? If not, please let me know. If so, can someone please contact David and see if he is willing to be the host?
AVGURU |
711,
THAT IS GREAT NEWS! I think yours is the unit everybody really wants to hear...especially given the fact that a lot has already been said about it and Alex has been active on this thread. Many also want to know how it will fare against the Meitner.
It's my understanding that you will be out of town that weekend, is that correct? I may have to get together with you before you go out of town just so I can hear it. Or maybe you'll be kind enough to let Jactoy pick it up that weekend since he lives close to you? Being its your newest, greatest toy you may not want to and if so I completely understand!
Keep us informed and please do give us your first impressions after you take a listen this weekend!
AVGURU |
Mark,
That's a great point! It's been proven (even in the medical field with placebo's)that the mind can be tricked into believing something is better if it "thinks" it knows upfront what's being administered or given.
Maybe we could appoint someone to do that...but it will be tough!
AVGURU |
Bob47,
Get off of our thread! You have nothing positive to say. And you really ought to learn how to spell before you start criticizing someone else!
AVGURU |
Alex,
I could care less what people say in terms of balanced only being beneficial for long runs of cables. To many audiophiles (including myself) there is a clear and audible difference in hearing balanced vs. single ended performance...especially on those componets(like Electrocompaniet,Esoteric,Ayre,Classe,etc) that were designed to sound better balanced. What I and many other audiophiles hear are blacker backgrounds, a deeper soundstage and a more "see through quality" to the music. And when lesser designs start to sound distorted at higher volumes balanced designed equipment tends to hold its composure better.
We can talk all day about the technical reasons why there is no advantage to balanced over single ended but the fact of the matter is balanced DOES SOUND BETTER...and not by a small margin! As far as I'm concerned, if a design change or connection makes an audible improvement its better!
NUFF SAID!
AVGURU |
Aldavis,
You did not read my post very carefully. I specifically talked about units that were DESIGNED to sound better balanced. The units I made mention of were all made to sound better balanced. The owners manuals say the same.
Additionally, the better mfg's will offer a cdp that has both connections. The clear implication is go balanced for better fidelity...but should you not have a pre/pro with balanced inputs we will offer you rca's. That's a smart marketing move as they don't want to miss out on customers who may not have balanced ancillary equipment.
So, I never said RCA could not sound good or as good as balanced. I'm sure the two players you mentioned sound quite good from RCA outputs. What I am saying is that in the majority of cases where balanced ouputs are made available there will be a clear and audible improvement over rca...especially when both are offered on the same unit! That has definitely been my experience.
I'm dropping out of the "balanced vs. rca" argument because it gets away from the original motivation of my thread. Furthermore, I'm starting to see that many audiophiles out here don't have balanced equipment (or have never owned balanced equipment)so my argument falls on unqualified ears.
Unless you have owned multiple pre/pro's, amps and cdp's that offer both options and have compared them extensively (like I have) by switching back and forth between both connections you wouldn't know there is an advantage.
AVGURU |
Aldavis,
No disrepect was intended on my part either. We're just having a friendly disagreement. Please stay tuned to our thread. We need informed people such as yourself. The fact that you re-read my response and then checked with Conrad Johnson lets me know that you have no hidden agenda and are only in search of the truth!
AVGURU |
Brian,
Tomorrow Jactoy, 1MarkR and I are having a mini-shoot-out at my house. We will be comparing the Esoteric UX1 against Bon's Sony modwright, Mark's Audio Aero Dac and my DV 50.
We will try to hold another shoot-out later including you, 711 and a few others in the area who have indicated an interested in attending. Hopefully the next time we arrange something all parties can be present.
I know its a last minute invitation but if you're free tomorrow afternoon around 2 p.m. you're welcome to attend. Send me an e-mail if you've misplaced my phone number.
AVGURU |
Alex,
Reb 1208 and I have extensive experience with the DV 50. Some of the strengths of the stock unit (that I really like) are as follows:
- It is warm sounding
- Very detailed.
- Lively, energetic and dynamic sound.
- It is musical (primarily due to the warmth) but could be
more musical.
- Bass slam and depth is very good.
- Great pace, rhythm and timing.
-Piano's (one of my greatest tests for a cdp)sound real,
full and natural. More importantly, the timbre is
correct.
Here are the weakenesses that need to be addressed:
- The presentation of the detail is too forward.
Instruments that should be a foot or two behind the
singer (i.e drums, symbols, etc) share the front of
the stage with the singer and other instruments. In other
words, soundstage layering is not good.
- The above is the reason why the player may
sound "artificial" to you.
- I totally agree with Reb 1208 that the bass is over-
kill. Too much slam that dominates the music. Some times
bass is too full and can sound bloated. The bass actually
needs to be leaner, less forward and more detailed.
- Soundstage could be wider and taller.
- Spacing between instruments could be better. The
soundstage is somewhat "congealed" with instruments too
close together.
- More air.
- Very little if any two or three dimensionality.
You've already stated that you were impressed with the stock bass performance of the DV 50 and have now gotten the 3910 to improve upon it (in terms of magnitude). I am not impressed with bass of the DV 50 for the reasons stated above and if the 3910 does the same with even more slam it is not an improvement for me.
Regarding dimensionality, I don't know if any solid state design can provide dimensionality like tubes.
Alex, please explain how your mods address the weaknesses I've listed above. I'm not interested in more detail (unless its in the bass) as the DV 50 will compete with ANY player in terms of detail.
TBG- I've heard the Exemplar 2900 (not your 3910) and I thought it sounded very good but was somewhat bright. It did have air, good spacing, great detail and a wide soundstage. The soundstage was a bit too forward and again bass detail could be better. However, it defintely sounded better than the DV 50. Alex's units (his old SACD 1000 and
3910) sounded better. Jactoy's Modwright Sony 9000ES also
sounded better.
Alex- To explain what I mean by bass detail, I listen to a lot of jazz with upright acoustic bass. I want to hear the bass overtones, notes between notes, fingers as they pluck across the strings, etc. And I want very little if any "overhang" on bass notes unless it occurs naturally in the recording studio.
Quite frankly, I'm scared to invest in a mod of the DV 50 and then find out these problems still exist. Your comments would be greatly appreciated.
AVGURU
|
Reb 1208,
Your point is well taken about spending $5,500 for a DV 50, having it modded for another $3,000 and then taking a tremendous hit on resell value when you decide to sell.
That's commonly referred to as taking a bath!
I think if you talk to Alex he even realizes that and therefore would be the first to agree it makes more sense to sell you his modified 3910 @$4,200 rather than modding a DV 50. However, there are some DV 50 owners out there who might be thinking about upgrading to an UX1 or X01 and therefore would be attracted to spending $3,000.00 on a mod as opposed to spending $8,000.00 for an upgaded model.
Whichever way you go...it ain't cheap! I have a couple of bars of soap that I can throw in for free for those looking to take the plunge!
AVGURU |
ESOTERIC UX1 REVIEW
To All:
I've had the pleasure of demoing the $13,000 Esoteric UX1 universal player for the last three days. Here are my impressions, first against the DV 50:
In some areas the UX1 is a dramatic improvement over the DV 50. The soundstage is wider and taller, spacing between instruments is improved dramatically, voices sound more natural and bass detail has been greatly improved. These changes are not small. Its a very polished, more high end sound than the DV 50. And its a more relaxed sound as the DV 50 exudes a lot of high energy. Its like the difference between two peole running a 100 meter dash..one short and one tall. The short person (due to shorter legs) has to sweat and work twice as hard to cover the same ground as the tall person, who looks more relaxed while running at the same speed.
Esoteric should be applauded for maintaing a consistent sound through all formats. I've heard universal players where one format sounds exceedingly differnt than another. Not the UX1 (or DV 50 for that matter). The same sound characteristics that I described for redbook above also pply to DVD-A and SACD (both 2 channel and multi-channel).
What I mean is, even though DVD-A and SACD are inherently better sounding mediums than redbook the same improvements described for redbook apply to those formats also.
For those die-hard 2 channel folks who say they have no interest in mulit-channel music the UX1 just may change your mind. I played Norah Jones "Live In New Orleans", Ray Charles "Genious Loves Company", BB KIng and Eric Clapton "Ridin with the King" and Steely Dan's "Everything Must Go". All of these are mulit-channel DVD-A or SACD. All sounded superb with great detail, huge soundstages, plenty of air and a "live" feeling like you are there. In that respect I think DVD-A is better than SACD as I've found it repeatedly expresses more raw energy while SACD seems smoother and more analog. The multi-channel performance of the UX1 is definitely better than the DV 50.
I also found DVD-Video performance to be improved. The picture is brighter, more vivid with slighty deeper colors. The old "whites are whiter, blacks are blacker" adage applies here. I didn't see any large improvements in detail, video noise or artifacts, etc. Not that there were any problems in these areas before (there weren't) but I didn't see any improvments either. All of my tests were conducted through the component video outputs as I do not own a high def-TV. Video performance of these units are not talked about a lot, but I formerly owned an Arcam FMJ 27-A and I can tell you that the Esoteric is right up there with that unit.
Operationally, the unit works perfectly. The remote is easy to use, the disc reading is much slower due to the newer transport, the front panel buttons are responsive, the LED display is not too bright and the build quality is far superior to the DV 50...which was already overbuilt. Finally, this is a beautiful unit in the brushed silver finished.
However, there are some performance areas where I feel the DV 50 is superior. The X01 is not a warm machine. Mind you, its not bright but its not as warm as the DV 50. Its also thin sounding in comparision to the DV 50. Not as full or rich. The reason for this is the soundstage has been pushed back about a foot compared to the DV 50. This is actually a good thing as I've often complained about the DV 50 sounding to forward and having too much detail "in your face" with poor layering. One benefit is I found percussion (symbols, drums, etc)to be further back in the soundstage as they should be. This adds to a more layered soundsatage and more depth in comparison to the DV 50.
Also, since the UX1 is even more detailed than the DV 50 this recessed soundstage helps to soften the effect of having even more detail in your face.
The problem is now instruments sound thinner with less body. Images are now smaller. The presentation is not as full or rich. This is not so much a problem on instrumental jazz pices where the arrangements are sparse and tightly focused. However, on lush arrangements with plenty of strings and horns (i.e classical or sensual ballads) the music loses some of its romanticism and musicality because the music no longer swells up and fills the soundstage...it sort of hangs in the air as a backdrop where you notice it but don't get to hear it in its full splendor and glory. Also, some of the dynamics are now gone and PRAT seems to be slower..probably because the soundstage is not as energized and is more recessed. The UX1 does not drive songs home..it kind of paces itself.
Vocals sound more natural on the UX1 as they are not colored (in warmth) like the DV 50. But again, they are not as full. Piano's are brighter...especially in the upper ranges and the timbre is not as accurate compared with the DV 50. You can definitely get listener fatigue if you listen to recordings with a lot of higher frequency instruments in abundance.
Its very frustrating because on some music this less forward, leaner sound is ok and actually more appealing. The DV 50 soundstage in many cases is "much too busy" and the UX1 resolves this problem by throwing a deeper soundstage and less forward soundstage that allows for better layering and less "upfront" fatiguing detail. However, in the process of doing that dynamics, energy and PRAT are sacrificed. Furthermore, performances can seem somewhat more "detached" and "unemotional". Add to this the fact that the UX1 is voiced brighter than the DV 50 and it creates a situation where some songs sound incredible where others are lacking.
I understand this is a very hard balance to achieve and most mfg's struggle with this. Howevever, for the $8,000 price difference between the two units you would hope that the UX1 brings you a little closer to that ideal balance.
To conclude, don't get me wrong here. The UX1 betters the DV 50 in just about every category (and every hi rez format). It sounds more polished, more relaxed, vocals are more natural, spacing is improved, bass detail is much better, soundstage is wider and taller, etc. But for me the ultimate question becomes is it more musical? The answer is no, primarily due to a lack of dynamics and energy, a brighter sound that can be fatiguing, a recessed soundstage that at times doesn't allow you to feel the emotion and PRAT that is lacking in comparision to the DV 50. The UX1 we used had about 200 hours on it and has been around the review circuit.
Because of these findings I now want to re-review the X01 in my home. My previous review of the X01 (very high) was done at the dealer's.
My search continues. In attendance to this demo were Jactoy and 1MarkR who I'm sure will agree with my comments.
Tomorrow I will talk more about the other units that were demoed, the Audio Aero Capitole DAC and Jactoy's Modwright 9000ES Sony. I will give you a small piece of candy to chew on...the DV 50 as a transport pared with the AA DAC was GLORIUS SOUNDING....
AVGURU |
711,
Didn't know you were back in town. Good to see you back on the forum! I've had the UX1 at my home for the past few days and will be taking it back tomorrow. I was going to bring it to your house for a shoot-out with your newly modded 3910 but Alex told me he has it again for a small modification. I guess you'll be recieving it by this weekend or the early part of next week. We'll get together (all of us) as we originally planned.
Regarding spending $$$'s, I'm not eager to take a chance (and potential bath) on a modded player unless I can hear it upfront and know I'll be happy for a long, long time.
I'm not looking to buy a modded player and then flip it after a short period of time. I want to buy a player I can be happy with for 3-5 years. Once I find that player I will be off Audiogon for a long time and just enjoying the music!
I need to hear your new modded 3910 as I felt Jactoy's Sony Modwright 9000ES was superior (i.e more musical)than both your Exemplar 3910 and the APL 3910. An even more attractive option for me (in terms of $'s) is to have Alex mod my DV 50.
I'm hoping to make a business trip to Houston in the next two weeks where I can hear the DV 50 Alex just modded for Jack.
We'll talk soon!
AVGURU |
AlDavis,
Thanks for your response. I wish I could say for sure that the X01 was "fuller sounding" than the UX1. I know both are voiced on the brighter side and not as warm as the DV 50.
I auditioned the X01 on a really warm system (see my previous review) and that may have hidden some of the issues I heard with the UX1. In talking to Marc Michelson at Soundstage (he reviewed the DV 50, UX1 and X01 side by side) he told me he felt the X01 was about 20% better than the UX1 which is a lot of improvement when talking audio.
What I do remember is when I brought my DV 50 to the dealer for a direct comparision to the X01 it tore it a new "you know what" and I was flabbergasted at the differences. Not even close. The UX1 was also signifcantly better but I didn
't leave that demo with the same "overwhelming feeling of superiority" that I did when I demoed the X01.
Yes, you are correct that I am particularly enamored with tubes right now. The best non-tube digital just seems (imho) to get better at doing the things audiophiles love to talk about: soundstaging, imaging, increased detail, etc but still fail to sound more musical.
When I say musical I'm not talking "analog" sounding. That's easy to achive even in a digital cdp. All you have to do is voice the player more towards the mid-range, eliminate some of the detail and soften up the high's by rolling them off. Some of the high end Marantz players, Lector, etc know how to perform this trick very well.
I don't want to just "hear" the music sound better or more analog. I want to "feel" it...the emotion, palpability, etc. I want images to feel as though they're right in front of you. Peforming for you in person. Tubes can do that.
I want very much for the Esoteric to take me where I want to go because I love their products, technology, build quality, etc. But at $13,000 a cd player should do more than what I heard from the UX1. Right now, I haven't heard anything close to the modded players other than the DV 50/Audio Aero Capitole Dac combination I alluded to at the end of my last post.
That sounded unbelievable but I didn't get to hear it on a variety of music..only jazz. But if it sounds good on all types of music that may be the route I go. It would give me the superior redbook sound I'm looking for while keeping the ability to play the high rez formats. The DV 50 sounds very good in SACD and DVD-A (not as good as the UX1 or X01) but I could live with it.
My only problems/concerns with the modded players has to do with the re-sell value and some of the quirky operational features (built-in digital volume controls, disabling of some features/functions and most of them sound best direct to the amp. I like having a pre/pro and don't want to see it rendered useless in 2 channel).
AVGURU |
TBG,
I too am sorry that you can not be part of our Chicago listening tests. You remind me of myself when I first heard the Esoteric DV 50. I didn't believe (and didn't want to believe) anything could sound better. I was wrong...and with all due respect so are you. The key words you used was "its the best you've heard". Keep that in mind.
The Exemplar is good but not the best by any stretch of the imgination. It was beaten soundly by the Sony Modwright and the APL 3910.
You will note throughout this thread I haven't come out in support of or endorsed anyone's modded unit. I've just reported the facts.
I am in the process of re-listening to everything that we've demoed a second time to assure myself that my impressions (and the groups impressions) were not flawed or biased. I will actually have an Exemplar 3910 in my hands within the next 5 days. I also plan on listening to Alex's latest 3910 (currently owned by 711) within the next week. Finally, I will have the Esoteric X01 in my home in another two weeks. Then I will write out detailed results of each.
Enjoy your Exemplar. It is better than a lot of things out there (including my DV 50).
AVGURU |
Islandear,
I also am looking forward to hearing the new Ayre universal player as I would like to include it in my final shoot-out results. My dealer should be getting one in the next week. I have a lot of respect for Ayre's engineering talents and I absolutely loved their CX-7 cd player.
I'm disappointed that the new Ayre will not support multi-channel playback as I do own some very good mulit-channel discs. It also won't support DVD-video but that is less of a concern.
Welcome to the thread and please continue to provide your input!
AVGURU |
Alex,
Would you please respond to DIW's comments about no upgrade to the multi-channel/video section? Am I correct in assuming that the upgraded power supplies "indirectly" increase the performance of the video? Also, do you not (upon request) offer upgrades to the op amps that are linked to mulit-channel? Can you not also "change out" the cheap single-ended rca connectors that are used for multi-channel?
What else can you do to improve the mulit-channel and/or video performance? In talking to you and Dan Wright I don't believe you have to disable the multi-channel. I know you left them intact in the DV 50 upgrade. What options do offer in regards to multi-channel?
AVGURU |
Hello to all,
This is AVGURU. I am the originator and moderator of this thread. Over the last two weeks I have received numerous private e-mails from contributors and observers of this thread asking me step in and add sanity to a thread that is clearly out of control! These concerns have come to me from various sources including A-goners, other modders, manufacturers (yes, manufacturers!), dealers and even people associated with the Audiogon staff. There have even been comments from people within this thread at various points asking me to do something.
Additionally, everyone needs to understand that this thread has garnered a lot of attention outside of Audiogon. There are professional reviewers who are aware of it, it has been mentioned on other well known forums, it comes up as one of the first items if you do a google search under Esoteric, etc..etc. Contrary to public belief, free speech is not "FREE"...it does come with certain responsiblities..the biggest of which is to report the truth, have integrity in how you report information, treat other people with respect and lay off the personal attacks of other contributors on this thread. If there is anyone reading this who does not believe they have any of these "responsibilities" then please feel free to leave this thread immediately.
Furthermore, whether true or not there is a real perception out there that this thread contains an underlying current of bias favoring Alex and APL. In revieweing the thread from the beginning to now I can readily see how that perception could exist. I don't believe that was Alex's intent in becomming involved as he was just trying to answer as many questions as possible about his product. However, there is no question that APL has been over-exposed on this thread and there seems to be a general belief from many that his mod is the best one out there. This is a problem and I will address that issue as well as suggest a solution later in this e-mail.
My first responsbility is to re-focus this thread and res-establish its original purpose and intent. I invite everyone to start at the beginning of this thread again. I started this thread by taking home numerous high end cdp's and comparing it to the Esoteric DV 50. Why did I do this? Because the DV 50 had received numerous accolades, rewards and favorable reviews from the audio industry. As such, I was seriously contemplating buying one but first I wanted to find out for myself if all the hype was accurate.
In doing my comparisions I laid out a blue print which I THOUGHT would serve as a basis for others who contributed to this thread. I wrote detailed, concise notes about my listening sessions, using recognized audiophile terms and parameters to describe differences between units, sonic attributes, etc. I also used very descriptive wording that allowed those reading to "visualize" what I heard. I can't tell you how many people commented on how much they appreciated my insights and reviews.
Also, because I actually listened and did head to head comparisions my "opinions" were not really a factor in my writings. I reported the facts as based on my listening experience not from innuendo or others comments. Whether one agreed with my findings or not was not the point. The point was that my findings were based at least in part on empirical data. You had to respect that fact.
Finally,(but most importantly) when I listened to the modded cdp's and it became painfully clear that they were clearly better than the DV 50 (for less money to boot) what did I do? Did I arrogantly stick by my original findings that the DV 50 was the best? Did I look for excuses or reasons why my DV 50 didn't perform well? Did I become jealous, take these listening tests personal and attack others because they thought something else sounded better than my DV 50? NO NO NO NO!!! I reported the truth and I got so much love from those who respected the fact that even though they knew I was orignally biased towards my DV 50 I had the integrity to report the truth.
Now, having set this backdrop it is time for me to point out specifically what is wrong (and what must change in this thread). I am implementing the following new rules to make this a better thread. This will force me to be more active as the moderator and enforce the goals of the thread. Some will not be happy with that but I can't please everyone. From time to time I will have to mention by name those who have strayed from the guideliness. Please realize it is not personal in nature and my only intent is to make the thread better:
1). KANA 813- This thread was set-up and even designed with the intent of using shoot-outs as a basis of providing valuable listening insights and information to others. I'm sorry you don't believe in shoot-outs but please don't discourage others on this site from wanting them. Your comments about the "uselessness" of shoot-outs are not constructive.
2). Everyone, please, no more personal attacks, insults or smart-aleck comments towards others because you think their ideas are far fetched or you don't agree with them. Just leave it at "we have a difference of opinion". This is not kindergarten and there's no need to get in the last word. Those who do not abide by this and continue with this activity will be reported to Audiogon. I'M NOT KIDDING!
3). Those of you who have personal questions for Alex in terms of how his units operate, technical questions about his mods, parts, pricing, availablility, etc should direct your e-mails to Alex directly...not through this thread! This also goes for those who want to solicit his opinion about issues pertaining to other units, his thoughts on various products, topics, etc. This is nothing against Alex as I myself have learned a lot from his comments. But this thread is not meant to be a forum for APL products.
If you want to ask other members who might own an APL unit about their experiences or thoughts on APL product, or if you want to write a review about one of his products, no problem.
4). I've had numerous inquiries directed to me trying to "confirm" that the APL units we auditioned are the best of the modded units. Let me make it unequivocally clear right now to all reading this post that that was NOT OUR FINDING AT ALL. The only person in our group who believes that is 711 Smilin..and quite frankly he has been spreading that message all across Audiogon on different threads.
Right now, we have not finished our listening tests nor have we heard Alex's latest and greatest mod to the 3910. There is no question his unit sounded very good. My personal favorite as of now is the Sony Modwright 9000ES which is an older mod Richard developed 4-5 years ago. But again, that is not the groups final pick as we have not finished evaluating other product. Furthermore, the modded 9000ES does not play cdr's which for me is a big drawback. All of these considerations will be weighed and evaluated in our final analysis.
5). If you are NOT PREPARED to write detailed,specific reasons(based on actual listening observations/comparisons) as to why one product is better than another OR why you prefer one product to another then PLEASE REFRAIN FROM MAKING ANY DEFINITIVE STATEMENTS ABOUT THE SUPERIORITY OF ONE UNIT OVER ANOTHER. We need a lot less "opinions" on this thread and a lot more detailed reviews/insights. One of the goals of this thread is to get people to go out and listen!
There are people out here who for a myriad of reasons are unable to audition these units and are looking to our discussions for help in making a buying decision. Opinions don't mean alot unless based at least partly on solid information. See, nobody wants to take the time to write meaningful analysis. It's hard work but very necessary to add credibility to this thread. What good is any thread if there's no credibility or integrity to it?
6). I am sending out invitations to a bunch of other modders to send me their units for evaluation. There a lot of people out there who are very qualified and doing great mods. I personally think this "niche market" will continue to grow as the performance of these modded units continues to astound and in many cases is vastly superior to stock units. And I would really like to hear from others who have had their units modded by others not mentioned on this thread to contribute their thoughts and findings.
In conclusion, this has been a long but very necessary post as this thread severely needs some maintenance and re-focusing. I have outlined a lot of things that need to be changed and new rules that I'd like to see followed. Obviously, I can't do it by myself and I desperately everyone's help. I have no personal agenda other than to make this one of the most useful, informative and longest running threads on A-gon.
This thread has already brought a lot of joy and satisfaction to many A-goner's and I have the e-mails to prove it. The ultimate goal is not to "direct" anyone to a specific product but to help audiophiles make the best "informed" buying decision possible by exposing them to a wide range of products via unbiased and hopefully accurate listening tests.
However, for those of you who refuse to cooperate or maintain the spirit "persuing the truth" please know this: I will not tolerate a continuation of pessimistic antics and will file formal complaints with A-gon staff on specific members. And trust me, they do take them seriously and you will be contacted. I've seen them do it on many occassions.
Finally, should all fail and no progress be made I will just ask A-gon to shut this thread down. For those of you who are saying "good, we don't need it and I'll just start my own thread or a new one" my answer is fine...go do it. It's not as easy as it looks. There are already members of this thread who have already tried it with little success. We should all be working toward a common goal of persuing the musical truth.
Enjoy the music,
AVGURU |
Eldon & Flye (aka Richard & Kyle),
I understand your frustration and your points of contention have been duly noted. There are many on this thread who are aware of the excellent mods you have provided over the years. And most people here are also bright enough to differentiate between those who are trying to further their own agenda and those who are still interested in seeking the musical truth. People who do that in the long run lose all of their credibility and objectivity and are no longer viewed as being impartial contrary to what they may say publicly.
Again, there is no need to make personal attacks on individuals...and I'm especially disappointed that you did that after my rather long post asking everyone not to engage in that activity any more.
I will be in touch with you guys shortly (after CES). I want everyone to have a fair shot at getting the truth known about their product. By the way, I have never heard Alex (who I have spoken to on several occassions)say anything negative about RAM or your mods. I just thought you should know that.
AVGURU (MODERATOR) |
Audiojoy 4,
Did you not read my post in regards to making agressive overtures and "sales pitches" towards Alex's or any other modders or individuals products on this thread? What part of my post did you not understand?
If you want to be a spokesperson for Alex's product in the UK contact him privately (not via my thread) and negotiate your deal with him on your own time. That is not the purpose of this thread and I would hope not to have this conversation with you again!
AVGURU (MODERATOR) |
Goose,
Thanks for your kind comments. Stay with us as we need more voices of reason.
AVGURU |
Pscialli,
You pose some very good questions. It seems there was an initial buzz of excitement when the McCormack piece first came out based on the first review. However, subsequent reviews and owners comments have either been mixed or only mildy positive. And as you mentioned the latest Stereophile review was not very complemetary. I have yet to hear it but when I went to Music Direct to audition the X01 they told me the McCormack was just "ok". I would have listened to one but at that time they didn't have one in stock.
Regarding the new Orbiter, I put a post out on Audiogon a month ago asking for comments on this piece. No one commented. I would be very interested in getting a ahold of this piece and reviewing it as their stand alone cdp's have been quite good and I have a lot of respect for their engineering. Additionally, the Orbiter looks killer, even better than the DV 50 with a better build quality. But it seems everyone is waiting for a great review to come out first before taking a chance on it.
Regarding the Marantz SA 11, when I made my comments about reviewing it no one on this thread really seemed to be interested so I didn't persue it. There are a couple of other threads currently on A-gon regarding this player.
Its interesting that you mentioned the Marantz because right now I am auditioning the Marantz SA 14 vers. 2. Its in my rack and going up against the DV 50 and an Arcam cd 23.It was one of Marantz's better cdp's that seemed to be well liked and got very favorable reviews. So far the results have been interesting! The SA 14 is a nice player.
Of course, none of these players have the musicality of the modded players. And I really think its the tubes that make them magical.
AVGURU |
711,
Please, please..you already made your disdain of Eldon and Audiomods well known in a previous post. I think everyone here knows how you feel! I also think everyone here knows you are willing to put your "money where your mouth is" to find the best digital.
I'm sure you will be part of the final shoot-out and a major contributor as soon you will own two of the principal units everyone on this thread wants to see included in the shoot-out.
I'd appreciate your assistance in this matter. Spewing additional venom towards other modders serves no purpose. Additionally, since the APL 3910 is the best digital you've ever had in your system (your words)and you're enjoying the music, why do you care what Audiomod's has to say?
I envy you because I'm not there yet. But I can assure that once I do find that special cdp that makes me happy I could give a rat's *** what anyone else says about me. I will leave this thread, desist with demoing cdp's and just fade into the sunset smiling 24-7 knowing I will be happy listening to my music.
AVGURU |
Eldon,
I take great exception to your comments that this post is run by "Alex supporters" and that your products wouldn't be given a fair accounting via a shoot-out. You are making unfounded assumptions and short changing the integrity, intelligence and intentions of everyone involved in this thread.
While it is true that there are a few people who have been more vocal than others in supporting and promoting Alex's products, those few do not represent the majority of A-goners contributing to this thread. I receive many e-mails every week from people who are asking about different mod's and searching for information. I have referred some of them to you, as well as Underwood Wally in Georgia, Great Northern in Minnesota, Dan Wright in Seattle and a host of others that I'm aware of.
Richard, I just ran a post today addressing my concerns about the direction of this thread and asking those contributing to adhere to new rules. Did you not read it? Are you saying that I was being disengenuous when I made my comments?
Furthermore, I publicly stated in my comments that I planned on contacting you tomorrow and asking for more information about your mod's as well as possibly asking you to send me one of your units for audition purposes.
Richard, right now you are not making a very good case for anyone to want to do business with you or try your product.
This is your chance to shine and show us what a great product you make. Before I started this thread I was biased against the mod industry in general. I felt it was a rip-off to pay someone to take a mid-fi unit, mod it and expect that it could match or beat the performance the performance of a high end player from an established manufacturer. I beleive a lot of people on this thread felt that way.
If you'd bother to read the entire thread you would know that the general consensus now is modded units offer outstanding performance and offer a better value than most if not all the established players. We have determined that mods from Exemplar, APL and Modwright sound better than the Esoteric UX1 which retails for $13,000. Other units that have been bested by the modded players include Electrocompanient 1 UP, Ayre CX-7, Classe CDP-10 and the Arcam CD 33T.
Richard, this is your time to shine. It is high time that modders get their just due and recognition for making some of the finest, most musical cdp's on the market. I don't know of any other thread on Audiogon which has taken the time to do such extensive comparisions between modded units and mfg'ers.
Yet, instead of embracing this thread or at least trying to take advantage of the opportunity to provide information about your products, you come in ranting and raving and making "assumptions" about all the participants and accusations about our integrity and whose getting paid off by Alex. I can tell you that Alex has not paid me ANYTHING to post favorable comments about his product. And I'm the person that has written most of the detailed reviews on this thread!
Richard, you are making yourself look very bad on a national stage. You come across as a jealous, bitter person who is mad that someone else is getting an unfair advantage and special treatment. But that is not the case. And despite the unfavorable initial impression you have made on most of the participants on this thread I am still open to including your unit in our upcomming shoot-out and write a subsequent review.
If you'd like to discuss this opportunity in more detail please contact me via my A-gon e-mail and we can talk. However, I am kindly asking you not to post any more comments on this thread if your intent is to continue attacking 711 and others who you perceive to be biased.
We are trying to maintain a constructive and positive forum that will help audiophiles make informed decisions!
AVGURU (MODERATOR) |
711,
I didn't realize that in your last post you were just responding to yet another attack on both yourself and this thread by Eldon. I have addressed his comments in an appropriate manner for all to see.
AVGURU |
Loudandclear,
You're correct, its Portland. I already made contact with him this morning.
AVGURU |
To all,
It looks like we're back in business again! The thread was temporarily closed down. Why, I don't know (I didn't request it)but my guess is the last post from Springbok10 or a direct complaint from Kern may have caused Audiogon to become concerned. A-gon certainly doesn't want to be in the middle of any legal squabble between members.
Springbok10, I understand your frustration and most of what you said was very valid. But as I told everyone earlier, we just have to tone down the rhetoric and stick to the original intent of this thread. Keep personal feelings about others out of it. This thread is too valuable for all involved (and we're too close to our ultimate shoot-out)to jeopardize the use of it because of personal vendetta's.
Let's enjoy the music again!
AVGURU (MODERATOR) |
Kana813,
In looking through the history of your posts on this thread it does seem that I incorrectly attributed the "shootouts are useless" comment to you when in fact it was Tbg who said it. My apologies.
However, I do not apologize for my efforts to restore order and focus to this thread. I will continue with those efforts until this thread comes to fruition.
AVGURU
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Tbg,
Somebody had to step in and take control of a thread that was clearly getting out of hand. Anybody could have done it but no one else wanted to. I was receiving e-mails from other posters asking me to do something. Although it has lessened to a great degree, people are still taking "pot shots" and making personal remarks against others even though I've asked everyone not to do so.
For example, look at your comment..why is it necessary for you to criticize me for labeling myself the moderator? What purpose does that serve? I made my comments (and my self imposed title) over two weeks ago and yet you're still talking about it? Why?
If trying to restore order to a thread and making commentators show respect for each other is vain then I gladly wear that label. If I have to call myself the moderator in order to accomplish that then again I will gladly take your criticism. If I have to enlist the help of A-gon staff to temper the rhetoric on this thread then I will do that also.
When I made my comments I stated then there would be those who wouldn't be happy with what I had to say. And I also strongly suggested that those who weren't had every right to leave this thread and start their own. That option is also available to you.
Please, let's move on!
AVGURU |
Boa2,
I agree that the wait is much too long and I wish I could speed things up. Unfortunately, we are waiting on a bevy of players to arrive before we do the shoot-out.
Here is the anticipated line up of players and the personnel who will bring them:
AVGURU (ME)- Esoteric UX1, Classe CDP 100 (new series), Marantz SA 14, Exemplar 2900, Meridan G08. I either own or have access to all of these units whenever I need them. I sold my DV-50.
Jactoy- Modwright Sony 9000ES.
711 Smilin- Will soon have both the Modwright 3910 and the APL 3910.
1Markr- Will soon have the Modwright Sony 999ES. He also owns the Audio Aero Capitole DAC.
Additionally, there are a couple of people we know who own the Meitner but no committments yet on whether or not they'll participate.
I honestly believe it will be another 2-3 three weeks before 711 and 1Markr have their units in hand. Once they do, we will arrange the shoot-out (if everyone's schedules permits) for the following week...preferably a Saturday.
I think the group of players listed above represents a wide sampling of some of the best tube and stock players on the market today. Having the Meitner would be the icing on the cake.
Facing these units off in a system that is as neutral as possible would at least give everyone an idea of the strenghts/weaknesses of each player. That's all any shoot-out can realistically hope to accomplsih as the ultimate performance of any player is system dependent.
If anyone has any other players they would like to see included (assuming we have access to them)please let us know. Just keep in mind that we will only have so much time.
AVGURU |
Guido,
I meant to say the X01 instead of the UX1. Regarding the Ayre, someone also at the show told me it sounded very "clinical" but I love Ayre prodcuts and will certainly try to get it. My local dealer still doesn't have one yet but is expecting one any day.
AVGURU |
Boa,
I will answer your questions in regards to my listening style (what I look for) as we get closer to the shootout. We will probably set up some type of written evaluation form with parameters that everyone can agree to. Then we will compare the results as notated on each person's form. That's probably the best way to do it.
AVGURU |
Dave,
I had it in my system for a week and Guido also had an extended listening session with it. I will let Guido respond since he writes so eloquently and can also wax philisophical about the pro's and con's of this fine multi-faceted player.
AVGURU |
TBG,
Sorry you feel that way. You are always welcome as a contributor to this thread. All I ask is that if you have personal issues with me or any other poster that you direct your comments to them outside of this thread.
AVGURU |
Musicfirst,
Because I have received many personal e-mails suggesting that this thread is biased towards Alex and APL (please view the total history of this thread and in particular Richard Kern of AudioMod's complaints earlier in the thread) we have asked posters to direct any technical or personal questions about Alex's products, whereabouts, services etc to Alex directly. I'm sorry that Alex did not return your phone calls for two days but that is really no concern of this thread.
Thanks in advance for your cooperation!
AVGURU |
Hey Brian,
The 29th is not a good day for 1Markr, Jactoy or myself. Since having Bon's modded Sony 9000ES and 1Markr's new Wright modded Sony 999ES are critical to the shootout I suggest we plan another weekend. The person bringing the Exemplar 2900 also won't be available. And I won't have access to the handful of stock players that I wanted to bring on the 29th.
I suggest we wait until everyone's schedule permits.
AVGURU |
Andy,
That's even more disappointing when you consider a few audio mag's felt the 2200 outperformed the 2900 in terms of redbook performance. (The 2900 was better in SACD but DVD-A was about the same). I know I had both units at my home for about 3 days and I also came to that conclusion.
AVGURU |
Brian,
I got your e-mail. Neither 1MarkR (newly Wright modified 999ES) or 711 (APL 3910 & Modwright 3910) are available. I really think we should wait. Actually, 711 is still waiting for Dan Wright to complete his mod of the 3910 so its not even in his possession. 1Markr just received his unit this week and is still trying to log in burn-in time.
I think having these three components in the contest are critical. Although 711 has invited me to pick up his 3910 to bring to the shoot-out (sans 711), there is no way in h*ll I want to conduct a shoot-out without his presence!
Since he has been so loquacious and adamantly fervent about how great the APL gear is I want to see his reactions and hear his comments when other gear at the shoot-out is equal if not superior. Just watching his reactions is worth the price of admission! Addtionally, there a host of people on this forum who bought the APL 3910 based on his accolades. So I want them to hear whatever conclusions are drawn from the shootout from the horses mouth.
Brian, I'll contact you privately by phone so we can reschedule. I know you want to move forward ASAP but since we probably only have one shot at doing this thing right I want to make sure we take full advantage and have as many participants (as time and space permits) as possible.
AVGURU |
TVAD,
I believe if the system we're listening to is transparent enough we will definitely be able to hear general and sonic characteris/differences between each unit and what one unit does better (or worse) than another.
From my personal experience I would say that over the years I've agreed with about 90% of what John Atkinson of Stereophile has said about the pariticular sonic characteristics of individual gear (of course after listening to it in my own system). And ususally John listens to a piece of gear in three or more different systems before making a final assessment.
Now your point as to whether or not these particular sonic characteristics are desirable or make "improvements" to a particular system are valid. That will be up to the individual to decide. As you've always stressed through out your posts, no one should buy anything before they've had a chance to audition it themselves. This shootout is only a guide.
However, I will say this (and your opinion may differ). If I am fortunate enough to get a really great piece of gear that's a reference piece and is known to have set a sonic standard in its class (i.e Halcro 58 amp, etc), even if it did not sound good in my system I'd probably abandon that system and re-tool it around that piece.
I believe in working around the strength of one's system and tailoring it around the component (or components) that bring the most to the table. Any system can be properly synergized to reach its maximum potential. Its just a matter of finding the proper fit of components, cables, etc.
Just my opinion!
AVGURU |
711,
You are entitled to your opinion as much as I am mine. Furthermore, I never accused you on this or any other forum of working for APL. However, others have accused you of just that ...both here and on other threads of your own origin. You know what they say, perception is reality.
In regards to a loss of respect, I'm not looking for yours or anyone else's respect here in this forum or any other arena in my life. I learned long ago that seeking other's approval or validation of what I do and who I am is pointless. In the end I am only accountable to myself, my family and God.
But I will say this..for you to lose respect for me because I (AND OTHERS) heard something in another unit that you did not hear or agree with is idiotic and shows a lack of tolerance on your part for others opinions. And just because the designer of the unit agrees with you does not change anything in my hearing or what I perceive. Last time I checked hearing and taste was a subjective thing. And for the record I never said the Sony was more or less accurate (that was your terminology) than the APL. I only said I enjoyed the performance of the Modwright Sony more than the APL.
Finally, I'm not going to trade barbs with you over this thread in terms of who has an AUDIOPHILE system but I'm quite happy with my B&W N803's/Vienna Acoustic Beethoven's/Anthem D1 processor/Cary Cinema 5 amp and dual cdp's of Classe CDP 100/Marantz SA 14 transport paired with a Tri-Vista 21 dac. I'll let others pass judgement on whether or not its at an audiophile system. My only goal is to enjoy it.
Anyway, enjoy your shootout this weekend!
AVGURU |
To All,
Over the last 4 months I have spent considerable time and effort talking to posters, fielding NUMEROUS questions from both observers and posters, arranging listening sessions, demoing a fair amount of equipment on my own, writing reviews and trying to maintain the focus of this thread.
At times I've had to "scold" a few posters for insulting others and I've tried to keep everybody focused on the task at hand. All of my criticism was in the spirit of making this a better thread...nothing more and nothing less. None of it was personal. I always envisoned this thread to be extremely professional, have a "real purpose" and not meander around a myriad of topics like so many other threads on A-gon often do.
I had hoped this nonsene would stop when A-gon suspended this thread for roughly 12 hours a month ago..thinking people would then appreciate the thread and get the message. Apparently it's effect was only temporary.
Unfortunately, there are those on this thread who have resented my efforts, who pout like children when given constructive critcism or when asked to curtail certain activities, who resented my self appointed tag as the "MODERATOR" (which was only done to restore order and not for ego related purposes), who feel they have the right to say whatever they want to say regardless of who it hurts or whether its relevant, etc. Finally, there are a host of people who have their own hidden agenda's and care about nothing other than pushing their ideas, products, etc on others.
As such, it is clear to me that my participation and efforts on this thread are not appreciated and are no longer necessary. I've certainly tired of trying to maintain a certain modicum of professionalism and civility. As such, I bid my farewell and leave this thread to my detractors and naysayers who are now free to take it in whatever direction they see fit.
For all of those people who have posted questions to me on this thread that I have yet to answer or who want to contact me please do so through my A-gon e-mail as I will not be responding to or following this thread anymore.
Good luck and enjoy the shootout!
AVGURU
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