Equalizer in a Hi Fi system

@mirolab , any experience with Hendyamps Michelangelo?  This piece looks extremely compelling to me. 

Hard to say. It’s got Aggression dial that ramps up tube effects eg saturation and harmonics. Maybe I’d sound superb finding the sweet spot on that dial. Really hard to say. 

On the Michelangelo thread I mentioned above the sound engineers are repeatedly comparing it favorably to the Knif Soma, a legendary EQ, and saying they are reaching for it before Soma. Those who have both. Incredible. 

Am IMMERSED in the thread devoted to Hendyamps Michelangelo on Gearspace.  My curiosity is piqued. This thread may make me buy one!

Just watched/listened to the HM in action through my headphones on YouTube. I am SEDUCED!  What a fascinating and amazing sounding unit!  It’s hard to make it sound ‘wrong’. Much like my Charter Oak. But with the tube saturation effect making it a very different beast. I can tell with high quality mic in the video and over my HEKse that the High and Air bands are to die for. I will end up buying one of these. I just know it. Even though I absolutely love my CO. Ah, the fun of exploring studio EQ hardware. 🎶🎧😁

The following just a really good example of the kind of stuff you’ll read on a sound engineer mastering thread:

”Got my Hendy Michelangelo a few weeks ago... it's beautiful looking in real life, the front panel is electric blue and the dials kinda sparkle like a nice watch face in the right light. Built like a tank but still with a quirky DIY ethos at it's core. I changed the knobs to EMI Stockli ones and it looks perfect to me now!

Sonically... well it's HUGE sounding. Very 3D and MUSCULAR, it will preserve any depth you have in a great mix, instead of compromising front to back like some saturation boxes can do.

The interaction is complex & musical. Bands and voicing switches combine with the aggression control to change the sound of each band so much that you'll have to dive in and explore for a bit.

You can get very large lowend all the way to quite tight & punchy depending upon how you work the lows & mid in tandem. The mids have a surprisingly odd effect that can add weight in the lower mids whilst also adding a spot of forward aggression in the upper mids. It does this whilst sounding quite separate from one another dynamically - all from a one knob control.  Powerful but a teeny bit "dangerous" without perhaps a little notch EQ down or upstream when mastering in the 200-500 region. Mid cuts seem nice, but I prefer the additive properties of this box.

The sound is rich in distortion - it's like a multiband culture vulture or something... and you can vary this hugely with the aggression knob and how hot you feed into the unit. Interestingly, I've seen asymmetrical waveforms in the output on program material when driven hard so it's very rich in even order distortion / fatness. You can of course keep it very linear with lower levels or aggression on minimum. I've been preferring this when mastering, with aggression below 30.

Gain staging is easy with the calibrated inputs and output trim if you find it has too much colour. The trim makes level matched A/B really easy which is great.

The high band is fantastic and currently my fav part of the box. It's slightly gritty in a cool way and the air very extended and sweet. What surprised me so far is that VINTAGE mode sounds so sandpapery/sweet in a U47 kinda way that it may actually be one of the best mic changers for tracking I've heard. It really can make the top dark, but vibey, yet not dead at the same time - like a GREAT vintage U47. Maybe not so useful to you mastering guys, but I do a bit of tracking still and I can't wait to use this after it transformed some recently tracked vocals captured on a brighter modern mic.

I've also used it when mixing on a bus in parallel after a Rockruepel compressor and it's like a Pultec had sex with a Culture Vulture and made a baby that compressed/EQ'd at the same time. Parallel let's you be a bit more creative perhaps and it seems to fit in to my world better there so far as I can be more bold with it. Those two in combo have become a new drum bus (monstrous size/tone).

Mastering wise - still finding my feet as it's powerful but not a "do all" box. The tone is broad and when you dial it in - hard to beat with just another EQ. It seems like the perfect "end of chain" drive tool and the Jensens and tubes sound great together, but you defo need a surgical EQ with it (not that you'd expect otherwise based off the design goal of the Hendy).

I gotta say though, I'm not tracking much, but when I do I'm going to be ALL OVER the Michelangelo. It has "that" sound - that rare thing you find in a great old mic, but you can paint with it. Seems to be good on everything and I'm thankful this thread brought it to my attention! :-)”

HA!  Found in this thread a direct comparison to my Charter Oak:

”Very interested in this. I have a Charter Oak PEQ-1which is similar in process of using (stereo "feel" eq for broad strokes). I'd love to compare the 2. PEQ-1has such a wonderful hi sheen and can really fill in the low mids. Both are same price too, but completely different build with the HendyAmps being tube. Anyone have the chance to compare the 2?”

Response:

”I have used both units but not side by side....
I feel the Michelagelo has a bigger effect on the Audio as far as color..
The Hendy is very wide and 3 d sounding with more wow factor.
The PEQ-1 is actually a great program EQ but more flat in my experience.”

@mirolab , you’ll find the above interesting, as you’ve heard the Charter Oak

👍

The Michelangelo thread a Gearspace is amazing. Lot of great discussion also on digital vs analog. Another great quote:

”Agree with that 100%. Indeed nowadays some plugins "emulations" (aiming for analog color) are sounding quite great (and some free plugins are quite amazing tbh) but in a "real world mixing or mastering job" most of the times Plugins are still sounding "too much", or "too muddy", or "too bright" etc etc, where Hardware is still much more forgiving and musical. Too many time I end up bypassing plugins, where analog always stays on ”

It’s Select SR 24. That equalizer will run circles round the Lokius!

A used Charter Oak PEQ-1 has popped up online. Sold by Guitar Center in Pt SAint Lucie FL. I will call tomorrow and find out what serial number and if it’s one of the good ones Mike Deming made. 

I have called about the used Charter Oak PEQ-1. It’s the right serial number. Deming era. I own 2 already. I am likely going to scoop it up, as it’s the best sounding studio stereo program EQ I’ve ever heard. That is, unless @mirolab wants it. Miro…?

@mirolab , can you or anyone else enlighten me on how sound engineers can run several pieces of gear in series in their chain, sometimes like 8, and not have to worry about degradation of signal. This is as opposed to we audiophiles worrying about only one extra box in the chain. If I chained 3 pro EQs together and did mids on one, air band another, etc. would I have viable result?  Or do the pros use special consoles for daisychaining that prevents degradation?  It’s common practice to use a few EQs in the production process!

Actually never mind, @mirolab. The dealer at Guitar Center called and gave me my requested test results. I asked for a number of things to be done. There is disproportionate hiss in right channel. It’s audible with quieter passages of music. That’s not acceptable to me. I asked them to service it and get back with me. We’ll see. But not now. Sticking with the Michelangelo buildout. And my 2 wonderful Charter Oaks. 

Room correction has NOTHING TO DO with tone adjustment to personal preferences. Nothing. Please read the thread for more info on this. These recent posts are more about the merits of pro balanced analog gear for tonal adjustments. For room correction go back many pages and read @mijostyn et al posts. 

@ellajeanelle , if I may comment. I know you’re talking to @jtcf. Putting your ear up to the tweeter and hearing hiss that’s low enough shouldn’t be a deal breaker. If you have quality hi fi gear with low noise floor a slight uptick in hiss from an equalizer may be acceptable. Particularly if the music sounds BETTER with the EQ and the hiss is NOT HEARD when listening to, for example, quiet passage in classical work of well recorded piano solo. Yes, with my CO I hear low level hiss vs bypass when ear is literally on tweeter. But so what?  When I play classical or piano record fairly loud (like 50% on my Bryston amp) I DON’T hear hiss from listening position. Can toggle EQ in and out and no obvious change in noise. Low is low. It’s worth the gain in tonality, harmonics and timbre you get from EQing. Look, I had a dead silent phono pre that I got rid of for a noisier Graham Slee Ascension phono pre that sounds way way better. It’s the same thing. In the end, only you can decide how much hiss is acceptable. I play Yiruma great piano recordings for people and they are amazed at what I can do to improve the way that instrument sounds through my system with high end analog balanced EQ. Remember balanced when the music is playing helps tremendously with noise floor also. If I put my ear at the speaker while playing music will I hear any added hiss?  Really doubtful I’ll hear or notice. But I might get tinnitus or an earache!

@mirolab , the process you described is AMAZING in its intricacies and elaborateness. I would LOVE to spend a day watching mixing and mastering in a real studio!🎶

“Thanks to both of you for the info on the EQ.  I am definitely going to do more serious research into the API equalizers.  It may sound picky, and you can call it girl stuff, but I want them in black and no rack mount ears, or removable ears.  Only one of them will be going on a rack, the others not.  I like everything to match! “

totally get that. My EQ has to look black, full height, and beautiful. Not just sound great. Yeah…that with needing stereo ganged controls leaves, like, 2 units out there that fit the bill!

“tlcocks  No offense to you or anyone but I gave Schitt a try by buying 3 components for a guest room and all 3 had issues of some sort and had to return them all.  Horrible customer service and subpar product in my opinion, and yes I am talking about their so-called top of the line stuff.  The saying you get what you pay for definitely applies to Schiit based on my own personal experience with them.  As far as well regarded, as you mentioned, definitely not to me. Perhaps as paper weights.

To anyone reading this, if you enjoy and are happy with your Schitt products, congratulations and enjoy, just don't try to convince me, because I won't even respond. They have made my permanent "never buy again list", together with other companies which I will not mention for the sake of not initiating a back-and-forth and time-consuming discussion in vain.  Peace...”

Amen, sister!! Offense?? Are you kidding me?!  @ellajeanelle , you are singing to the choir!  I’ve been saying this the whole thread.  You just say it better!  Schitt is sh*t!

I would think high quality EQ would be very useful in this use case. Might sound more natural than compensating with a hearing aid. I admit to knowing more about EQ than hearing aids though!  I believe some hearing aids utilize digital EQ, if I’m not mistaken 

Yeah, I still wanna hear that MQ112. Good stuff!

Op amps are bad as a blanket statement is NOT TRUE. My Charter Oak has op amps in circuit and is the best pro studio EQ hardware I’ve ever had the pleasure of hearing in my home. And I’ve heard several. It’s all in the implementation and the quality of parts used. Like the old saying goes, the devil’s in the details. 😊🎶

@jtcf , I am so happy the API has worked out so well for you. Furthermore, am happy for the others who have dared to try pro analog EQ or MQ112, branching out from the Schiit products, and being richly rewarded!  This has been an illuminating forum for many. I am so glad. 😊🎶

Wow. Speechless!

So one of my Charter Oaks is in the early stages of age related decline. But it’s still good for now. But naturally, being the EQ freak that I am, I’ve decided on a replacement for it. I’m having Hendyamps build a SS version of their famous tube EQ the Michelangelo. Don’t wanna mess with tubes. I’ve bought it and am just waiting. Absolutely cannot wait to hear it and compare it to my CO PEQ-1 and report to y’all!😊🎶

2 weeks until my Michelangelo arrives. Can hardly wait!

Now it’s late next week. Arghh!  Being built now. 

I won’t go into how much better (again) studio mastering analog ideally with a hardwire bypass sounds compared to DSP. Read the whole thread. This war was fought already. It’s actually a great thread. Go back and read if if you’re so inclined. 

And no, I’m not guardian of the thread. Just very passionate about what I am hearing with the gear I’ve acquired. A great studio analog EQ in a hifi rig is a sound to behold. And no, they’re not all great. Like anything else to achieve greatness takes time and patience.  When you get to the point that you are not only adding tone but also stage size and resolution as opposed to LOSING those things with cheaper or inferior implementations then it becomes really exciting to listen. Every single time. I WANT to get that jacked over someone demoing a properly implemented DSP and crossover. Still waiting to find that demo. But right now I LOVE what I’m hearing and have for 10 years now. Have other friends here doing it this way and they’ll tell you the same thing. 

Oh I’m not closed minded to hearing it all. I’ve said that many times I want @mijostyn or you or someone to put me in touch with a good demo. Always exploring. The journey never ends. I was impressed by BACCH preamp. I’d love to be impressed by DSP to. Happy to hear and compare!

No, demo opportunity never came. I’m in Florida. I’d drive. So sorry my gear is not formally listed. I have listed it like 3 times in this thread. It’s Auralic Aries streamer via high quality Bryston dig coax > Bryston B135 Integrated SST2 with onboard delta sigma 24/192 decoding DAC > Transparent cabling > Martin Logan Montage. The integrated pre has a completely transparent tape loop which houses the Cgarter Oak PEQ-1 connected with four Cardas Clear Sky custom wired RCA to XLR. On the XLR end, pin 3 is grounded to pin 1. Pin 2 is hot. Works flawlessly. 

“ If not your EQ device becomes a sonic factor in itself as something that contributes to the sound, and not in a good way.”

Wrong. A great analog studio EQ can and does add its own special color sauce if you will which can be all improvements, no drawbacks. That’s obvious to sound engineers. If you want to hear it from them do some reading on Gearspace. That’s where I get all my great ideas on EQ. 

“What setups have you heard with the implementation of DSP (not necessarily meant as a total lineup, but just some examples), and in which capacity were the DSP sections used - merely as a digital crossover, only digital room correction, or both?”

Ive yet to hear DSP as room correction, as speaker timing corrective, or as crossover function. I have only tried some tone curves with Roon and Auralic DSP among others similar to that. And Neutron media player. All digital parametric. But just bass and treble custom tone curves. Not all the above. As I mused on this previously, I will muse on it again. I wonder what it would be like to optimize the room first, then do room and speaker timing correction with DSP. Then lastly have an analog piece that is great sounding for bass and treble shaping which has hardwire bypass for full circuitry bypass when not needed. 

And crossover 

“It’s important to get an overall bearing of the setup contexts here to get fuller picture and what was the deciding factor to account for your less than enthusiastic response to these setups. I would say the DSP’s themselves used in the setups you heard, depending on their specific implementation, are likely the lesser sonic influence compared to a variety of many other factors. It’s about how they’re used, component specifics, and overall implementation.”

it’s important not to conflate bass and treble tone shaping EQ with room correction. The former is better sounding (by far) with analog. The latter is only properly executed with DSP, with its minute amplitude options and infinite possibilities with narrow notch filtering

Mike, sounds great!  This Thursday?  I’ll reach out privately!

Yeah but notice I’m not slamming or poo pooing DSP. I am simply speaking to how beautiful the right analog implementation sounds. Your talk about my experience condescending though. Again, I was impressed by BACCH and am open to hearing the manner of DSP you implement. Again, don’t conflate tone adjustment (broad) with room correction (narrow). My only point here is to get Loki users to try pro analog. You do you. I’ll do me. 

You confuse passionate as arrogance. I have yet to meet a DSP advocate as passionate here as I’ve been. That should tell you something. But I’ll admit I’ve only done some bass and treble shelf boosts and compared them instantaneous A-B to my analog piece and all the digital implementations were sonically inferior. Flat 2-D lifeless. Not unlike how people compare solid state to the holographism of tubes. But listen, hey, I admit I haven’t heard the best DSP has to offer. But I want to. 

Question:

electrically speaking, can I run balanced equalizer into a tube amp and boost the signal without damaging tubes or amp?  Cannot find a definitive review of this topic anywhere online. 

Does anyone know the answer to my question?

“I take it they're mostly digital by now for a number of reasons, though analog mixers are no doubt easier/more intuitive to use. ”

maybe in mixing. In mastering (most similar to our use case) analog is still felt to be superior. Although the gap is closing. Read threads on Gearspace if you want to educate yourself on what goes on in the studio. As opposed to making assumptions. 

@mahgister , your ‘natural’ method, while impractical and unsightly to wives, is certainly fascinating. I have no doubts you are maximizing sonic returns on the gear you have. 

"Special color sauce" pretty much tells it like it is, and whether such a flavor is a benefit is obviously system dependent, a matter of synergy or personal taste instead of being a desirable trait or character sought in every case and system context. 
 

you are missing the point a bit. The best analog EQ boxes are simply amazing sounding and extremely musical and resolute. Many a mastering engineer says just passing a signal through the box set on flat but EQ in makes everything sound better. With the right box, you can make your system sound whatever way you want tonality wise all the while enhancing the hi fi charteristics we all pay attention to: timbre, image specificity, staging, resolution, PRaT, etc. The term “color “ loses its negative connotation in such a context and the term actually becomes irrelevant. Great and right sounding is great and right sounding. Period. You don’t know until you’ve tried. I can tell you that with one of these EQs picks, fret slides, breathes, pedal clunks, all the micro and macro resolution is there in spades. And for all of you with the Loki Max thinking you know what I’m talking about, you don’t. You think you’re hearing what you should be getting, but you have no idea. LM has been in my system and fell woefully short of my PEQ-1. Returned it the next day. Piece of “Schiit” in comparison!

At this point I would repost what @dgarretson said on page 10 to further build upon what I just said:

”

I have nothing to add to this interesting discussion except for another vote for the Manley Massive Passive. I purchased the latest version with switching power supply, initially to complement a custom speaker with a Purify 6.5" mid woofer and matching passive radiators that handle LF boost well enough to produce high quality bass to 30hz. Over time I’ve used all bands of the Manley with excellent results.

After break-in and experience on how to optimize its relatively complex and sometimes counter-intuitive controls, the Manley piece has become an essential component. It is a bit fiddly to tweak, and once set up properly, wants mostly to be left alone. It has a clean, open sound with tube characteristics that don’t sound "toobie." No hiss on top.

Of course it is well vetted by mastering pros-- which encouraged me to skip past lots of cheaper solutions.

I’ll add that at this level of performance, a studio equalizer is a seductive and cost-effective opportunity to improve a system without endless component and cable swaps. Perhaps an endpoint.

Esoteric K-O1x w/Rubidium clock>SOtM>AtmaSphere MP-1 or Goldpoint balanced passive>Pass XA-160.8 monos or modified BAT VK-75SE.”

“Question:

electrically speaking, can I run balanced equalizer into a tube amp and boost the signal without damaging tubes or amp?  Cannot find a definitive review of this topic anywhere online. “

I talked to two sound engineers and got my answer. The answer is yes I can without any risk to tubes or equipment. 

And I do read about shootouts on Gearspace with mastering engineers comparing the best plug-in digital emulations of classic analog designs, eg Knif Soma or SPL PQ, and they say similar to my observations on my own system but with a smaller margin of difference. But mastering is broad stroke. DSP great for narrow filter in mixing. I am quite sure if you don’t have a Luxman amp with tone controls and you want to adjust tone for differing recordings in your hi fi system that analog is a better chance at retaining the hi fi characteristics of the straight signal. I have no doubts though that the best digital will eventually eclipse analog for adjusting tone. Technology marches on. Look at AI. It’s inevitable. 

My guy locally says even the best DSP for room correction leaves a slight haze and grain to the mids. I want to hear on my own though. 

Sorry so excessive here. Again just my passion coming out. Let’s just leave it at I need to hear what you’re doing and you need to hear what I’m doing. Fair enough?

“mere inclusion of an analog studio mixer ”

One more thing. It’s not a mixing EQ. It’s a broad Q MASTERING EQ