Last nite I had the Fontaines playing on my Fostex as opposed to my HEKse because less sound leak. Wife working next to me. She loves Fontaines. She said let me listen. Previously she’s only heard the Fostex through the Chord Mojo2. Then she wasn’t impressed. She’s got a good ear and picked up on the annoying treble spike at about 6K. This time she heard through the Headamp Charter Oak. She raved about the sound, stating if sounded amazing. I asked her how the treble sounded this time. She said amazing. Now you tell me with a straight face that air band treble lift on digital sounds better than analog. Yeah, right!
Equalizer in a Hi Fi system
Just curious to hear everyone’s opinions on using an equalizer in a high end hi fi system. Was at work tonight and killing time and came across a Schitt Loki max $1500 Equalizer with some very good reviews. What are some of the pros / Benefits and cons in using one. Just curious. BTW. I’m talking about a top of the line. Hi end equalizer. Mostly to calm some high frequencies and some bad recordings.
Showing 50 responses by tlcocks
It’s really not like that for me. It’s fancy bass and treble dials. I never touch 3 of the six dials. Center point switches for bells are always left the same. If I’m sitting on the couch and wanna get more bass or treble (or less), it’s nothing to get up and turn a dial or two and sit down. Totally worth it when Bryston and CO combo sound that darned sweet together. Almost everything I play sounds amazing. |
I do want to hear an in room demo of one of these DSP preamps. I know the pros talk about professional plugins emulating classic analog designs having gotten closer to their analog counterparts. As mentioned many times here, room correction is something else altogether. I think that’s where I’d want a DSP preamps |
@wolf_garcia , your experience with LM jives with mine. Our observations are not discrepant. I just love the ability to dial in more treble that’s top shelf treble at will. Gonna say though…bass lifts are better also with my CO. Not just treble. Again, I’d say about the LM that it’s very transparent, bands are more narrow, it’s less powerful than pro studio, and in simply words the treble is less airy and beautiful than some pro gear. |
MQ112 tops out at a center point of 10K. Not high enough. The magic occurs when you pick up subtleties of the 12-16K area and the favorable harmonic textures of the higher order Supra aural frequencies as well. Watch the video online about Mike talking about the 50K switch on the PEQ1. Granted, this is dubbed as a room corrective EQ. Which generally doesn’t apply to such ultra high treble frequencies, so no surprise. No, while I’d still hear it because 10K done right with the correct Q sounds good, this probably not an equalizer for me. |
@tattooedtrackman , can’t wait to hear about your impressions of MQ112! |
@mijostyn , thanks for your last very informative and interesting post. I often use a bit less treble at low volume. Interesting the volume effect on tonality |
@mirolab , have you ever heard the Maag EQ4M? It is renowned and revered in mastering circles for its air treble shelf section. It’s always available with a 30 day return on Amazon, and I’m always tempted to try it. I never do though because 1) I love the CO and 2) it doesn’t have dual stereo controls like CO and Vintage Skyline. |
@mahgister , I found your last post very interesting and informative as well. More than one way to skin a cat!
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@jacobsdad2000 , we’ve covered this already. To EQ or not. Moved beyond that now. |
@mijostyn , are those designs pre/processor/dac or no dac? |
@mijostyn , Trinnov Amethyst has 64bit floating point processing. Can you in anyway compare and contrast its capabilities vs the Chord Mojo2 104 bit processor? I know that one it’s face this query seems ludicrous because the Mojo2 is an $800 portable device. But I ask anyway. I’ve used the Mojo2 as a source dac EQ in both my big rig and my headphone chain, and the CO approach sounds better. |
Just did a fairly intensive comparison between the CO modest treble boost and M2 modest 104 bit digital treble boost using a fairly cymbals heavy rock track. Did this comparison running straight out of M2 3.5 to headphones as well as running the M2 line level (volume matched) into my Headamp. Did this comparison also using both the Fostex TH900 and the Hifiman HE1000SE headphones. I listened only to the presentation of the cymbals. I also listened through both equalizers flat to see that cymbals very similar that way. Big differences though once both EQs in and compared. The M2 digital EQ, despite its being 104 bit processing, presented the cymbals more truncated or compressed sounding. EVEN AT 104 BIT. on M2 cymbals were rougher and less natural sounding than CO analog. On CO, leading and trailing edges smoother with clearer attack and better sustain than digital. I knew all this already but really had to dig in this time and prove it. Conclusion? No question that analog high end EQ presents treble nuance much better in a treble boost situation than even 104 bit “lossless” (as Chord describes it) digital. So…so long as I have any upper octave rolled off ness at all with my equipment or the recordings I listen to and love then I will stick with my studio mastering analog EQs |
understand and your comments duly noted. A question and a comment. If there were a 13,000 dollar Chord processing preamp utilizing its proprietary 104 bit processor, would its EQ sound better than what you’re using? Phrased differently, how does Chord s 104 bit algorithm compare to floating point 64 bit in similarly priced similarly powered systems, if it existed? Isn’t 104 better than 64, or is programming a digital EQ not that simple? (That’s all one question, really). Comment: headphones DO NOT sound as natural timbre wise as loudspeakers. You are right. But like anything else, if you work hard enough at finding it, a very rare few do. My HEKse is known in head fi circles to be one of the five or so best opened backs on the planet. Trust me it comes close to loudspeakers. Lastly careful with slightly disrespectful comments which are simply unproven such as headphone enthusiasts tend to have lower fi loudspeaker systems. That is uncalled for, I think. |
i stand to LEARN the most from you, by the way, as you are deep into the digital side of high end. As much or more as I am the analog side. And your equipment is top notch. So bear in mind while I call have called you out on your condescending nature at times, as Miro has, that I like you and want a healthy exchange of ideas and can learn a lot from you. I do think digital eventually can eclipse analog for the top octave one day. Your systems are top flight and maybe you know something I don’t. That’s why I’m always open minded. I also think even the greatest hi fi systems can benefit from EQ due to the aforementioned inherent flaws which are numerous as eloquently laid out by @mahgister. I feel once playing with hi fi gear that there’s more “bang for the buck “ exploring best EQ solutions as opposed to continually upgrading equipment in the chain. If I were very rich I’d do both. But I am not. |
It’s far and away the BEST EQ discussion forum ever. Avoiding the boring diatribe of audiophiles bashing EQ in general, one. And two, we have a resident expert on the digital side with @mijostyn and a resident expert on the analog side with Miro. |
@tattooedtrackman , I’m very happy for you!! |
Agreed @mahgister |
We’ll…unless you’ve got a room like @kykat that sounds pretty challenging! Interesting about active traps. given how many people have room modes I feel pretty lucky that my bass response is so even in my room |
Miro, I couldn’t agree more with you. Again, we are kindred souls. Totally agree that most audiophiles have NO IDEA how good a quality treble shelf or broad bell can sound. How well it can integrate with the music and not draw attention to itself and truly open up , beatify, and breathe air and life into a flat or dull record on hifi gear. Why do few know this? It’s because like you said there are so many poor implementations of bass and treble tone control. You have to go out of your way to find it. Which you and I have. And we’re rewarded in spades! |
@tattooedtrackman , if that 10K switch is properly implemented you should find benefit out of occasionally boosting it for some records. If you don’t and it’s always flat of cut, then McIntosh didn’t implement it well. Eg too broad a Q hence pulling undesirable frequencies up too, for example. Its center point is too low, so likely tge Q would be narrow and may not sound that natural and good to boost. You never know though. I’ve got a 10K switch in my car stereo that I boost usefully often. I you have hi fi gear, which clearly you do, not sure why you’d ever cut at 10K. Unless a record is unusually bright. I don’t know. Guess I’m a quality bass and treble lover. Adds EXCITEMENT and life. I’m at zero to +3 db for excellent recordings but can be as high as +8 for dull or bass less recordings, usually older. |
That’s totally awesome. My guy Ed at Audible Images will have one to demo in a few weeks. Look forward to going up and playing with one. Only out of sheer curiosity as I’m always stoked to hear my unit. You know you have a good one when every time you fire it up it puts a smile on your face like you’re hearing good hi fi for the very first time. 😊 |
@tshark , yes it’s funny I remember my ole 10 band JVC SEA-1 EQ even though it’s been 35-40 years! |
“Sound Labs will go all the way to 20 kHz flat with the right amp. Fortunately for me the DEQX has a 4 way crossover and the Sound Labs has both a low frequency and high frequency transformers which can be biamped. The current plan is to drive the high frequency transformer with a Bricasti M25. ” @mijostyn , help me understand. I get the biamping plan with the Bricasti driving 5K up. So how many DEQX? Just one for low end. Or two? One for each amp? Sorry confused, but want to understand |
@tattooedtrackman , if you ever feel compelled to cut 10K on a thin recording, try fleshing out the mid bass, upper bass and lower mids instead. Little boosts with those. Like 60 to 300 hz. I hate cutting anything unless I have to. |
@mijostyn , open link below |
To all claiming to chase the unobtainable unicorn, you can get good enough with the right high end AND processing choices. Case in point. My small family of 3 had the good fortune to experience NY Phil play Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets in the relatively new and well reviewed David Geffen Hall in NYC last Xmas. Once home, I pulled up the soundtrack on Qobuz and played it. Made some quick Charter Oak PEQ1 treble and bass adjustments until it sounded most realistic to me. Then put my 15 year old son (who produces music) and my wife (who heard the treble spike on my Fostex) in front of the system. Played at approximate level as our live experience. Within a minute or two both of them said wow it sounds like the real thing. I asked if much of anything was lost over the real thing and their answer was a resounding no! Guys, the right studio analog hardware EQ gets you closer as one piece of the puzzle than each of the other myriad of variables expounded upon so eloquently here. Obviously address all or as many of the other solutions as are needed. But my way is biggest bang for the buck. I will keep exploring though. That’s the fun of the hobby. I truly believe the magic analog air band puts one closest to the mythical unicorn. I swear by it. I put as many in front of my system as I can and get the same kind of wow statements every time. |
Another anecdote. My wife is Peruvian. We had a couple visiting from Peru and the husband was a lover of mountain folk music as well as the Mexican rock band Mana. I played some of the first by his guidance on Qobuz. He was deeply impressed by the realism and natural timbre he heard. Then played Mana MTV Unplugged. I very well recorded live acoustic set that we both knew well. He and his wife were practically in tears raving about how good it sounded. They both asked me to toggle on and off the EQ. Both said they could believe the improvement it made. The wife did finally say after 3 songs that she was ready to go outlet mall shopping with husband, as planned. She got a little upset with the husband because he refused to get up off the couch and go until the record was over. Don’t knock it til you try it. |
i found the following post on Head Fi by Rob Watts himself. Founder of Chord Electronics: ”PC's normal calculation is by 64b floating point (FP). There are serious perception problems with floating point as it innately creates noise floor modulation (and other problems too) - and even though the modulation is technically very small, it has in my opinion very serious subjective consequences. This is the primary reason why many Mojo 2 users have commented very favourably on the improved sound quality of Mojo 2's UHD DSP against conventional EQ. In my case I use aggressively noise shaped fixed point architecture, and this innately has absolutely zero noise floor modulation. Going from 64b FP to 128b FP will get you closer, and 256b FP almost converges to fixed point noise shaped operation. |
The short second paragraph quoted also suggests that digital EQ just isn’t all the way there yet. The treble frequencies are hardest to EQ right, and while I’m no electrical engineer I’d be willing to bet they’re the one section of the frequency band that digital still doesn’t do justice to in a boost situation. |