Richard its never the best way to just cut and past portions of emails and other info into a thread. Whats missing is the rest of the email, and the valuable info obtained from verbal conversations. Summary: Pump/Surge tank ---- long tubing (if you don't have the room coil it up) ----- ET2 PSI Gauge/filter within 5 feet of the tonearm. The PSI coming out of the air pump should be ideally targeted to match the PSI the manifold has been designed for. For those buying a used ET 2.0 (.5) its important to determine this. We have discussed the technique here. Before this technique is performed the manifold needs to be restored. Definition of a manifold. "A pipe or chamber branching into several openings" Two Et2 ManifoldsThe owner has provided permission for me to post these pics. Thank u ! The one on the left dirty from years of use without a filter/trap. The one on the right has been cleaned. What can't be seen in the pic is what the insides looked like before and after. Its the same manifold. Cleaning procedures well documented in the manual. If your planning on upgrading your pump make sure your manifold has been restored first. The threaded portion of the manifold is designed to allow air to spiral around the outside of the set screws and maintain the precise length and size of air passage required for an efficient air bearing. Page 42 Next in Line. The Air Bearing Spindle psi requirements are less than the manifold as only a portion of this air is required for it to float properly. Approximately 50%. That means on a base ET2 only 1.5 psi ! - if your manifold is restored and functional. The "old" air escapes as per Bruce' design out the sides of the manifold. Richardkrebs - you must have time on your hands... I fail to see the relevance of your comment. If you're really that interested the previous post took 40 mins - which is about how long it normally takes to down my mug of coffee with one re-heat. The intent (agenda) of all this includes awareness, interactive sharing, knowledge, learning, and "mostly" fun. I am having a blast. how bout u ? A fun start to my day now that I am not living with the bears. Now where were we ? Something about the similarities of the ET2 VTA and a brothel ? |
Chris.
You must have time on your hands to produce such a lengthy thoughtful tome.
I read it multiple times to try to get inside what you were saying. I think that you take BTs comments to mean that the o'rings will leak if a low pressure manifold is over pressured? I don't think that this is what he means.
I suggest that BT adjusts the arm design pressure by manipulating the clearance between the spindle OD and manifold ID and/or the way the capillaries are set up.
The push back at end of travel he talks about is due to excessive air flow exiting the gap between spindle and manifold bush, not due to the o'rings leaking.
The shims I have added are in the gap between the manifold outer plastic shell and inner aluminium bushing. This is the gap where the o'rings sit. The 2 shims about 2x3x**mm thick, each end, are spaced at 120 degree increments. Completing the circle at 120 degrees each end is one M2 grub screw. It is gently tightened to make a solid mechanical link between the manifold outer shell and the inner bush.
One would not consider removing the main arm to TT plinth mounting bolt and gluing the arm to the plinth with say rubber discs spacers in place of the three pointed screws, since this would be introducing a compliant joint between the arm and TT. But this is exactly what the o'rings do. They are a compliant joint.
The positive benefits of adding the shims and grub screws is unambiguous.
cheers. |
"Why does the action of my ET2 VTA, resemble me Coming Out Of A Brothel at 2:00 am" lol. Can't wait to read that one. |
*** YELLOW STICKY FOR ET2 THREAD MARK - AIR SUPPLY *** A series of posts to help me and others find stuff here - just working with the system ! This one focused on Air Supply/Manifold/Air Bearing Spindle ET2.0 (.5) Motto Better the air supply "AT THE PSI AS DESIGNED FOR THE MANIFOLD IN USE" and the ET 2.0 (.5) just keeps sounding better. Bruce Thigpen
More than air pressure, the air supply will change the sound of the tonearm. if it is bad, allowing pressure pulsations to enter the manifold. Increasing pressure slightly and a big enough surge tank are the best things that could be added to the tonearm in terms of performance. Firstly let me say I believe Bruce has created a real monster with this air bearing manifold/spindle design. Truly excellent results with a stock setup for music lovers to enjoy their records at 3 psi with the base ET2. This can be the end of the story, and it is for most. That's real life. Lets recognize this for a moment before non-ET2 readers here think all ET2'ers are like us. I am sure in the thread views that there are many ET2'ers who have been enjoying their records in stock ET2 setup for years, that get quite the chuckle every now and then here with our adventures. Cool...enjoy..... I hope they approve of Dorothy. Boy I am mellowing as I age.... Unfortunately the changes with improvement of air supply is very addictive. I went personally through 6 pump systems. I am very very happy to report that I am a music lover again and pleased with what I am hearing. But its funny that all those experiments even though years ago are still fresh in my mind. We have all heard about Audiophiles going down deep rabbit holes with tweaks. Well this is about air lifting the music up to the ...... (use your own word to describe) So some ET2 Secrets revealed. I dug up a few emails with Bruce relating to Air Supply delivery that explain the above better - hopefully this is helpful, informative and illuminating to everyone. Maybe grab a coffee or "other" drink before reading. All emails cut down for brevity. This first one I asked just yesterday - RK's post inspired me. The others are from early this year and previous years.
ME
Hello Bruce - assuming a setup like this.
pump /surge tank --- 100 feet of air line ---- ET2
Is it not better to have the moisture /dirt trap plus a second regulator as close to the ET2 for air supply quality ?
Chris,
I would put the pressure gauge/filter within 5 feet of the tonearm only so I could monitor the input pressure and the quality of the filter. After the air travels through a long length of small diameter air line the flow should be very smooth. To verify if the air flow is smooth, listen to the output of the air hose, if you hear any humming in the air flow then it is not a good air supply.
- brucet
ME
If we use my ET 2.5 as an example that you set up specifically for 19 psi which is your optimum design setting for your tonearm. A continuous 19 psi air flow is sent in. Can we assume the spindle uses all 19 psi to work optimally (or is it a percentage of this amount)
Bruce
The manifold is optimized for the design pressure, the pressure at the surface of the spindle is a percentage of the inlet measurement, this is by design. The ET2 uses roughly half of the air to allow the spindle to work properly ? The supporting force is the surface area of the bearing times the pressure at the surface of the bearing
ME
So allowing air to escape around the edges of the manifold as more is pumped in ? is this a captured air bearing system ?
Bruce
Yes it is captured.
ME
Hi Bruce - so to be clear - for example in the normal design of the base ET2 at 3 psi.
Air continually goes in at 3 psi - circles the spindle "captured bearing" and escapes out the sides of the manifold, as more air is pumped in? This is by design.
Bruce
correct
ME
If someone has a 20 year old stock ET2 manifold designed for about 3 psi and decides to pump in 12-15 or more PSI
the extra air will just escape around the edges of the manifold and at a rate that can be heard ?
Bruce
The extra air will escape, but the rate of escape will not be that large from an operational point of view, but the escaping air is usually audible which causes one problem and the air can cause a push back at the extremes of travel.
So there you have it. The ET 2.0 (.5) design is meant to bleed around the manifold. Now what happens then if someone mods their arm and adds shims to the ends of the manifold as has been discussed here ? Does this not block the air from bleeding as designed? IMO this would change the design substantially. This would also mean that any observations in regards to changes to air supply, most likely will apply to that setup only, and not a stock ET2 manifold setup ? I have not added shims and am just visualizing this. This is my opinion and I don't feel I need to ask Bruce on this one. Does anyone disagree ? Richard I bring this up as you are using shims ? Another Fact revealed. This one is on page 3 of the manual. . From Manual - Page 3
The large surface area of the air bearing uses some of the tightest tolerances in tonearm manufacturing today, and is much more rigid at audio frequencies than metal bearings. Whenever I read that someone increased the PSI and it sounded better, some "Audiophiles" would say the bearing is not rigid. THIS IS TOTAL NONSENSE. It is not that the bearing is not rigid; its because by happening to increase the PSI with the pump in question, the user actually bettered the air supply coming in, with that respective pump. How many of us are pump experts ? How much do you really know about your pump? if that person had used a better pump same PSI the sonics would have also improved. Its about better air supply. My Pump - Timeter Aridyne Compressor How Aridyne’s Dry Compressed Air Movement Works This is what happens when I flick the switch. First, air is drawn through the air pump inlet filter. Then it is pulled into the pump where the pistons pressurize it to 80 psi and push it forward through the Teflon® lined high pressure hose that is reinforced with braided stainless steel. At this point the temperature of the compressed air is approximately 300 F. Then compressed air flows through the copper coils where it is cooled to room temperature. During cooling, moisture in the air begins to condense. The cooled air moves to the water trap where the condensation is rained out and collected. This moisture that is collected in the water trap is continuously drained through the nylon tube to the water collection tray where it evaporates. Next the air is decompressed to 55 psi by the secondary regulator. After this decompression the small amount of remaining moisture is so dispersed throughout the expanded volume that the dew point of the air is several degrees below room temperature. In the Aridyne Air Compressor this dew point depression can range from 3 to 10 F. All of the above with the flick of a switch. Turnkey. I do need to train my new puppy on how to flick the switch. From this point the air is regulated down to 19 and sent down 100 feet of tubing - some of it coiled up. The ET2 likes dry Arizona air. Its been said here before. I also happen to believe based on my compressors versus current setup from years ago, that there are advantages in a constant air psi being delivered by a quality pump versus a cycling off and on compressor which is like letting air out of a balloon slowly. This constant controlled air psi from a pump is how air is delivered for patients in hospitals. That's another discussion ! Now a question for long time ET2'ers using original manifolds. Some over 20 years old. When is the last time you checked the condition of your capillaries? Are the manifold inlets at 50-60-70 80% of what they should be? If not 100% you will be using more PSI to drive the arm because they are partially clogged and not getting the performance they were designed for. This is another reason some say the sound got better with more PSI. Clean them per the manual instructions. lastly - someone advised me of a poster, a respected professional reviewer who has posted on Whats Best Forum saying he used 50 psi with his ET2 for it to sound its best. First as mentioned above the design limitation is 19 PSI. Don't take my word for it - Ask Bruce yourself. When I read stuff like this, I make like a deer in the headlights on the other side of my screen. I wonder what he really hears, and what else is in his audio chain to cause this. I try to stay within the design parameters for all the gear I own. This is another clue imo that you are a music lover first. My experiences have been increase the quality of the air supply and the sounds gets better - every time. I hope this was helpful. More secrets revealed coming up. The title of the next post? "Why does the action of my ET2 VTA, resemble me Coming Out Of A Brothel at 2:00 am" The dirty secret is finally revealed...... |
Hi All.
I have been experimenting with the air supply again. This after earlier experiments implied that the output pressure from the regulators I am using oscillate around their setting.
The change I made was simple taking a few minutes but furnished a worthwhile improvement.
initial setup was... Compressor, inbuilt regulator, 6feet soft PVC tube, 1/4" needle valve vented to atmosphere (barely open), second regulator water trap, 30feet soft PVC tube, arm.
The new configuration places the needle valve immediately after the second regulator. The theory being that both regulators are unstable and bleeding some air to atmosphere via a non compensated needle valve will smooth the regulator perturbations in the air stream to the arm. I had to increase the setting on the second regulator a tiny amount to bring the pressure seen by the arm back up to the pre change figure.
The hissing of the needle valve is not an issue since this setup is in another room.
The result is an increase in "tightness" notes are more visceral and solid. Soundstage larger in all directions, greater differentiation of the sound between records and individual tracks of the same record . An agreeable result.
All testing was done with the compressor cycled off. |
Frogman - I think this the 4 th time you have made me spit up coffee on my keyboard. Q: How can one tell that the floor of the stage is level?
A: The viola player is drooling out of both sides of his mouth. What happens to the poor guy when the stage is tilted back a bit ? maybe I don't want to know... |
**A vinylphile, on his way to loan his buddy and fellow LP-lunatic his prized vacuum record cleaner, decides to make a quick stop at the bank for some cash. He pulls into the parking lot and nervously decides that it's probably ok to leave the machine unattended on the backseat of the car for just a few minutes. Runs into the bank and makes the quick transaction. On his way back out to the car....SHIT!! ....the rear window of the car is smashed to bits and the door wide open! He slowly peers into the rear of the car, and on the back seat he sees....two record cleaners!** A twist on a classic viola joke (the viola, popular subject of ridicule among musicians). This one, also easily adaptable to the subject of this thread: Q: How can one tell that the floor of the stage is level? A: The viola player is drooling out of both sides of his mouth. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9CdVTCDdEwI |
For the tonearm collector An ET1btw - interesting tonearms on the table this seller has the ET1 mounted on. For the Music Lover Base ET2 Low PressureRight here at Audiogon. Just remember, if last weeks posts have not made it clear; as with any musical instrument, lessons are recommended with the ET2 :^) (in my previous post memorized should read mesmerized) :^( |
you´re a man of humour Dear Harold, et al I have always believed but the last two years have solidified my belief, that lurking in the belly of every seasoned audiophile is a comedian waiting to bust out. Every seasoned audiophile, if he/she took a good look at themselves, is carrying enough material/stories with them to allow them to do stand up comedy in countless shows for years. However lets think about two scenarios. Would a seasoned stand up comic get a better reaction from an audience of serious audiophiles or an audience of serious music lovers? 10-23-14: Harold-not-the-barrel
Adjusting and running an air bearing tonearm needs lots of humour. I am tempted now and again to join the party and provide my thoughts whenever I read yet "another" thread on how to "really" properly Align, or set Anti Skating on a Pivot arm. But the little voice inside says "Don't go back in there man, you made it out !" The key to leveling and lining up an air bearing linear tracker is to do it when the bottle of your choice is still un-opened. As you know the road is clear and straight. There are no curves with two markers hiding along the road that you need to make sure you visit along the way. :^) This reminds of the time before kids and marriage when I used to go out with my buddies. (lol) Afterwards some were able to walk the straight line better than others. When my previous company shut down our Canadian group 2 1/2 years ago, it was a wake up call; but as I was in shock, I did not wake up from the event till 6 months after. It was the most serious of jobs to imagine what I used to do. No humor serious stuff. Now I can't get enough of Comedy Festivals, sometimes laughing uncontrollably. My family gets concerned sometimes at this behavior and they say - "Dad why don't you go listen to some music".... Wow.... can life get any better than this ? All is not great however..you see in my subconscious, I think there may be a desire to become a comic one day, but I hit a big road block recently. I have discovered that my wife is funnier than me. And why am I surprised? As I sit there memorized, in a trance like state by the reproduction of my favorite singer, group / band's music in my room, unable to move, she has been observing all of this from THE OUTSIDE IN God only knows the stories she could tell. btw - that pic is still the best definition of Nearfield that I have ever seen anywhere. From one linear guy to another. Cheers Chris |
LOL supa video. Chris, I already know you´re a man of humour.
Adjusting and running an air bearing tonearm needs lots of humour. This thread gets better and better all the time... |
Chris, that video is one of the funniest things I have seen in a while; thanks.
And loved the Anderson interlude; very expressive and unabashed trombone playing. |
I also have the table mounted on Stillpoint Ultra SS's and one of them is on top of the arm mount. I taped the hole with 1/4 20 and screwed the Ulra into the mount. cool - Tim this is the type of modded setup a picture would be great with, maybe in your virtual page? Anyway I'd like to see it and am sure others would too. My comments apply to Pegasus' ET 2.5 set up as well. btw - I discovered that the Audiogon virtual system is a separate database from the forums. How I know this, is you can link a pic from your virtual system into a thread like this one. Go ahead and delete the pic from your virtual system. The link with pic will remain in the thread. Cheers Chris |
Ct0517
I have the ET mounted on the plinth of my VPI Classic. I took some time and used several blocks of wood to get what I think is the best VTA. I also have the table mounted on Stillpoint Ultra SS's and one of them is on top of the arm mount. I taped the hole with 1/4 20 and screwed the Ulra into the mount.
Tim |
Pegasus - I call my baritone sax my personal distillery. Like Frogman and a few others here you certainly have a way with words ! Frogman - Actually, my tractor is a Husqvarna GT48XLS Frogman - you own one really sweet machine! I am a fan of Husq. I happen to own an "old" 20 inch Husq. chainsaw. It was bought used from a Logger back around '92 where our summer retreat is for $250.00. If you can just imagine what "used" means coming from a Logger... :^)...... but doesn't it still run smooth, and it has saved me a few times as the last kilometer into our place can be best defined as a good "Loggers" road through steep terrain and forest. You never know what is lurking round the corner after a bad storm. Frogman - I find the visceral experience of dirt, gasoline fumes and engaging that rear-wheel-differential a welcome change of pace :-) Frogman - A friend from up north sent me this video two days ago. How to load a Bobcat...Where else but here, will you see a cool tractor video.... some good physics happening there like with vinyl. And now a Ray Anderson Interlude..
Pegasus - Re: Trombone - The instrument is extremely powerful in a seductive way, a lot of colors and expressive
The middle/high school years can be very expressive but also impressionable. I wish the girls back then in my class saw the trombone as more seductive ! |
Hi Tim
regarding the "wedgie" :^) - A while back I did put one piece of Oak temporarily on the counterweight side to hold up the just installed damping trough. To allow the adhesive to set. One loses functionality of the VTA when you do that.
I found big differences between ET 2.0 (.5) mounted on
1) Wood plinth with the aluminum plate - in this case my own plinth birch/plywood (70 lbs), and the Jean Nantais plinth 100 lbs.
2) Acrylic or some other hard material that required use of the aluminum plate to keep it from marring the surface.
3) Mounted naked without the plate - Metal spikes direct on aluminum, brass, other similar material.
1 is the worst by far, and 3 is the best - to my ears. Also I can grab the manifold and move the Verdier table on its pneumatic suspension with it and not cause a shift. Its very firm. On the Jean Nantais table the armboards are replaceable and like the motor/platter mounts are separated from the main plinth with a void (air space)by design. The next step for me was to try a different material armboard with the ET2. Add this to the project bucket list.
Imo - the aluminum plate was a business decision by Bruce (a good one) to allow mounting on different tables. Most VPI tables had acrylic plinths so would fall within (2) above. The spikes could be filed down in this case to allow for direct mounting. I am curious if you are still using a VPI Classic with the wooden plinth and plate ? Good that the wedgies worked for you and you are happy with it.
Also regarding the VTA which the wedgie defeats. On the general analog forums here there are obviously two camps with those that like to play around with VTA alot and those that just set it at the "middle gound" and "forgetaboutit". This is true with the ET2 as well. Some have even removed the spike system and locked/tightened the VTA down so it can not be used. The post from Banquo363 earlier in this thread of the ET2 he bought was an example of this.
My 2 cents.
Cheers |
Chris, yes!, ear protection mufflers over ear plugs. May not be audiophile approved, but effective. Actually, my tractor is a Husqvarna GT48XLS. Love the thing. I suppose that after so much time worrying about the micro level of woodwind spring tension and tonearm resonances, I find the visceral experience of dirt, gasoline fumes and engaging that rear-wheel-differential a welcome change of pace :-)
In answer to your question: it is rare the professional grade woodwind instrument that does not require fairly extensive "set-up" even when brand new; including spring tension. Some manufacturers are more careful about releasing instruments in good playing condition than others. As audiophiles know very well, there is good and then there is GOOD when it comes to setup; a new instrument will inevitably require a visit or two to a first-rate technician. I have actually learned to do quite a bit of set-up work myself because, frankly, it's almost impossible to pay someone enough to do the kind of really fine adjustments that make an instrument feel mechanically "one's own".
Your comments about bass-management are spot-on. I completely agree with you about the importance of getting the bass right and there is, likewise, an expression among musicians that "everything starts from the bass up". IOW, get the tuning and balance of the bass instruments correct and everything else is much more likely to fall into place musically. The best orchestras (like the best stereos) have bass sections that play with the same clarity of timbre and litheness of the upper instruments, and produce sounds that are not simply low-frequency muck with no air around individual instruments.
Regards. |
@flemke: I agree! These are gradually more consequent and less reversible ways of what my cardboard wedges underneath the manifold/bearing do.
The wood option might create a more stiff but more vibration conducting, but less absorbing pathway than cardboard.
I might try a hardwood wedge someday. I like tweaks to be as reversible, low mass and "elegant" (not necessary in the visual aspect ;-) as possible. |
Not sure if this has been brought before.
I read a post on Audio Asylum about the manifold mount and how flimsy it is. The guy found the right height and then built a new mount out of ebony. I simply used a piece of wood and wedged it under the manifold. This made a huge change in the soundstage and overall quality of the system.
Tim |
Yes frogman & CT0517 on a John Deere, what nice illustration of Americana seen the other way :-) It shurely tunes bass sensitivity, although only in a limited interval range...
Regarding "spit", isn't what most lay people (ie. the non-blowing family members too) think it is. It's mainly distilled vapour from the lungs, with maybe a bit of sulfur molecules here and nitrogen mol. there. But not much spit, I think. At least not anymore after one played two or three years.
I call my baritone sax my personal distillery. But the bowed neck (?) of a bass clarinet works already nicely as such.
Regarding trombone: This is a really great instrument! (And - ha! Ray Anderson will play november 11 in our concert program! :-) The instrument is extremely powerful in a seductive way, a lot of colours and expressive. Must be fun to play with this huge tool-box.
It's funny you mention this aspect, of first getting the fundament right, the rest then falling in place: If I'm asked about what defines the quality of a well set up ET2 (or even more a ET2.5) it is the "full-range" sound from the *lows* up, surrounded by a lot of air in the bass (first): Bass ambience. Yes, it's also sublime upper ranges, but it starts with a lucid, airy bass range with a high resolution of bass timbre & pitch.
It sounds "correct" by itself while not sounding tight-assed NFB correct. |
I remember this vividly, my mother saying to my Uncle Music Teacher while shaking her head. ...
"why in the world would you allow him to have an instrument that requires him to empty out his spit on my clean hardwood floors when he plays the instrument at home"
The floors in the school music room were disgusting. When you arrived for class you grabbed one of the mouthpieces that were in a small plastic tub sitting in some clear liquid. God only knows what that liquid was now thinking about it. The good ole days ? We survived. Now everyone is paranoid about everything. Different world not so long ago.
Uncle Music Teacher in response to my mom "should I have given him the drums ?"
Mom shakes her head..again. |
Frogman - I discovered the benefits of simply mulching the leaves with my riding mower. Frogman, being the accomplished musician you are, I am having a hard time visualizing you on the back of a John Deere. this is most likely due to my own biases/prejudices. Do you wear audiophile approved ear plugs ? I highly recommend these ones. these ones - click meThese are easy to insert in any size ear canal and they work well. Not affiliated with this manufacturer. Frogman - The instrument will sound (and certainly feel to the player) more tonally coherent and with a more "right" timbre (which will affect even the perceived intonation (!)) if all the springs (upwards of twenty) have the same or similar tension. Is getting all springs with similar tension a routine task... and do some manufacturers of an instrument like the Saxophone make this easier to do than others ? Curious.. Speaking of biases. Two of my uncles played the different saxes, clarinet and flute. One of them happened to also be the music teacher at my middle school. In Grade 6 or 7 ?, I got handed this instrument by him with a bunch of piping. I was told to go learn it as the first performance was in 4 weeks for the band. At the time I remember thinking, this thing sure wasn't as cool as the trumpet, sax, or drums. It was the trombone. So I learned everything about the Bass Clef with it. Little did I know that the years that followed playing it, would influence my biases toward music from that point forward, still to today. I tend to put a bias on bass, whether live, amplified or not, and when I listen at home to full range material, I am therefore of the opinion that if you can get the bass right in a room, the rest will fall into place. More to follow on bass management... I need to go rake up some leaves. |
****Instead one hears more of the structure of sound, and listens into the quality of instruments *and playing* quite a lot easier.****
Precisely. And speaking of instruments, this relates to what is being discussed and, while perhaps saying the same thing, approaches the issue more strictly from the "resonance" angle:
The saxophone and all woodwind instruments incorporate a series of levers and keys which remain open or closed due to the tension of a designated metal needle spring. Each key will remain in its "natural state" (open or closed) until the downward pressure of the player's fingers reverses it's natural state; either closes or opens it. The tension of each spring can be altered either by bending the spring a certain amount during the instrument's "setup" process or simply by using a lighter or heavier spring. The instrument will sound (and certainly feel to the player) more tonally coherent and with a more "right" timbre (which will affect even the perceived intonation (!)) if all the springs (upwards of twenty) have the same or similar tension. |
Yes, this makes sense, and in an additional view-angle it's also like looking at ground loops like HF currents, overlaying each other with more or less phase differences, because "tuning" the screws (down) also tunes (down) the speed of each transmission path individually, and tunes (down) the Q of the resonances individually.
This BTW is also an aspect in different ways of mechanical equipment grounding. Depending on how you ground vibrations, more or less energy travels at more or less speed across the room, ie. across the floor, eg. to ones "ground receptors", the feet.
I mainly think in terms of rigidity as: "how much is *really* necessary". This & not more. One really has to check by ear, with a "natural" and integral way of listening. The "low rigidity way" keeps the musical range much more together, sounds more fluent. But it may sound less "impressive", less bassy, less "brillant" etc. Instead one hears more of the structure of sound, and listens into the quality of instruments *and playing* quite a lot easier. |
Gentlepeople.
Just another take on the thoughtful input from Pegasus.
Is it possible that the screw torque adjustment thing is at least partially due to the disruption of multiple mechanical paths? Lets look at the arm as a set of parallel mechanical conductors carrying current to "ground" (the plinth). In the ET their are multiple paths in the pillar and interface with the plinth. We have likely all experienced earth loops in our HiFi journey. Could this be something similar. Multiple parallel paths with slightly different propagation times, creating the equivalent of an earth loop. By disrupting, breaking, some of these paths are we actually building a single path to ground, hence cleaning up the mechanical earthing of the arm. |
****Trying to go rigid in every aspect of a tonearm’s construction will not work when the source is so Flexible !****
THAT is the kind of thinking that let's a sound system translate the information in the grooves (or pits) into MUSIC; and the kind of thinking that is often missing in this great hobby.
Chris, after a few years of suffering the bagging of leaves at our upstate place (incredible views this time of year) I discovered the benefits of simply mulching the leaves with my riding mower. It has to be done more frequently than would be otherwise; but if done correctly, is not only much easier on one's back, it is good for the lawn. Regards. |
You're right with the several modes to mis-tune an ET2. It needs a bit of 3D operational understanding and then every screw (inside the brain too) falls into its place. Brilliant, such an abstract thought and very well said. Set up requires very out of the box thinking. Imo –we are not talking about trying to put the round peg in round hole here. The records are very imperfect things and have not changed since the beginning of time. The ET2 has been built as a slave to the record. Trying to go rigid in every aspect of a tonearm’s construction will not work when the source is so Flexible ! ok my opinion again. Moving around off centered, up and down ! Lets remember the stylus changes /modifies the actual vinyl for a temporary period and a cooling period is required for it to go back to shape. Do you want your tonearm to be a big heavy stick or a delicate wand. Also repeat setup of the ET2 will not make the brain kick into gear - imo. I tend to just repeat old habits over and over this way. One needs to have reached a comfortable level with the ET2 first. You need to be relaxed, sit back and while enjoying some music you look over at the arm working in such precision on the record and then it just clicks. You will know when these moments happen. It requires patience, calm and time/experience. Readers are wondering why the hell go to all this trouble for a bloody tonearm. After all I can plunk :^) down my Dynavector 505 tonearm on any plinth or armboard - unscrewed - and just based on its immense weight get music playing by design. But - like I told an audio friend recently who is in the initial setup of his ET2; once you have had your first good run with familiar music - you are hooked. The sounds you hear snap into play and flow. Like water from a pipe. The Endorphins flow :^) BTW another tweak I use is trapezoid wedges of cardboard which I slide in (vertical) underneath both ends of the bearing housing (or damping trough) until they slightly lock the bearing to the plinth. This absorbs any horizontal elastic movement of the bearing on top of the pillar. They have to be applied with plyers, and should put symmetrical force to not unbalance the arm. Very interesting thx for sharing. Frogman - Enjoy the Colors Frogman – where we are (like other places I assume) the leaves are enjoyed for their beauty, shade and then the burst of colors before they fall and depending on where you live a problem if they need to bagged or recycled. It is my understanding from (internet reading) that in Japan the leaves are battered, deep fired and eaten ? Can anyone with real experience here provide more information. A recipe maybe - :^) The oak leaves take forever to fall and come spring are still there ! |
Hi Ct & Frogman!
"My place" is a historical house we run as a hostel, with a cultural program (which I organize with a few friends). The remaining time (not much) & energy (still enough) is spent on hifi and developing concepts & ideas. This has a company name and is actually more like a small personal counseling service to customers (who often are or became friends).
And I play in an amateur wind-instrument band.
And yes, Frogman, I read about and appreciated your similar experience with the screw torque. (And the sax (?) playing).
You're right with the several modes to mis-tune an ET2. It needs a bit of 3D operational understanding and then every screw (inside the brain too) falls into its place.
I leave the basic side-ways adjustment (the two posts) with very low torque, and keep the locking tilt screw fixed. I do lateral (and vertical) fine-tuning with the tripod screws in a balanced way: up one, down the other. The torque on the central pillar fixing screw stays the same this way.
I think it is really moving the VTA lever itself which dis-balances the arm a bit and the mechanism is not quite keeping the arm quite level. I pull the VTA lever with one finger using the bearing as a base, so there are (almost) no forces going to the plinth and the connection to it.
I "feel" the same about less interfaces is more (underneath the Tiptoes). But I got good results with small single steel pieces underneath the tiptoes. I think a whole steel or alu plate is less desirable. I will look to improve on this in my actual ad-hoc installation, which has a few things to improve.
BTW another tweak I use is trapezoid wedges of cardboard which I slide in (vertical) underneath both ends of the bearing housing (or damping trough) until they slightly lock the bearing to the plinth. This absorbs any horizontal elastic movement of the bearing on top of the pillar. They have to be applied with plyers, and should put symmetrical force to not unbalance the arm. I do this after having found my preferred settings (... :-) |
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For non-Et2 owners reading, the vertical bolts referenced in the previous post can be seen here click meThey are circled in red. Also - when I do setup on the 2.5 it is always without the wiring. The wiring gets added after. IMO - the only way to fully understand (if you are little anal and want to know) how much of an affect the wiring has is to follow this process. When I used to set up with the wiring, the wiring push / pull caused the post leveling to be off a bit. The effects was different with different wires. With the mounting post doing its impression of the Leaning Tower of Pisa - it means your VTA adjustments are thrown out. Cheers and Happy Canadian Thanksgiving |
Hi Frogman - as Pegasus said the leaves are turning, some brilliant colors. It marks the transition soon from summer cottaging up north to some serious music listening coming up to help me get through the winter. Pegasus - From your last post you must have quite the space to be able to hold concerts. I miss my daughters daily piano solos while she is away most of the year at school. When you mention customers and repair, modifications to Magnepan, do you have an electronics business of some type? Many good points - the "minimal torque" a key one that was discussed here early on and Frogman indeed stressed it initially. If I may share some experiences with this "minimal torque" and it directly relates to your comment; If I only touch the VTA adjustment a bit on *my* ET2 - the side-leveling is severely off. If it's not, I was lucky. To check is better than to believe... The coffee has not kicked in yet so pls excuse any rambling. If I really start going you know the coffee is starting to work. My first ET2 over 10 years ago now that came on a VPI HW19 MKIV. From my other tonearms in the past including Technics, SME, VPI's, Dynavector, FR64s, etc... they all come/came with a flat surface mount. They are relying on the partner table to be level. This is not good. Turntables are crude devices. Many plinths/armboards not level with the turning platter. The cartridge is always the end victim. The ET2(.5) as we know have a genius grommet 3 spike mount. They could be mounted on the Leaning Tower of Pisa if need be. However the spikes WILL dig in over time if the surface is not hard, which causes the Pillar of the arm to go out of level. I have seen people mount them directly on hardwood. Not good. The VPI tables came with an aluminum plate to prevent marring of acrylic. Never great IMO to add layers but there was no choice and business (selling the tables/tonearm combo at the time) meant it had to be done. The spikes can be shaved down to allow for removal of the plate and naked mounting on the acrylic. ET2's mounted naked on a hard surface are much better sounding to me. Multiple layering of armboard materials - UGH ! And then some put layers on their platters too... sorry to ramble; ok that first table VPI HW19 MKIV / ET2 I got, the previous owner could not get the ET2 to work. Long story short it was set up bad and the pump was down 1/2 psi - could not complete the last grooves of a record. I got another pump, which allowed for whole lps to be played; the sound in its as is condition still trumped the VPI JMW 12 inch arm at the time. I used it for a while then decided to take it apart. I discovered the two vertical bolts that level the arm on the VTA pillar were tightened down so much by (previous owner/s and my short use to that time) that they had put two bolt indents in the base below. Imagine the stress put on by the bolts. This was truly the opposite of minimal torquing. These Two Vertical Leveling bolts are an operational dilemma with the ET2. Owners set them up initially and everything seems fine. Then over time with cartridge changes, bumping or moving the table, room seasonal structural changes to wood beams, etc ... things go out of level a bit and the vertical bolts need small adjustments over time. Owners give the vertical bolts a touch of a turn here and there not realizing the bolts are already putting pressure down. They go away on holidays. Come back... more listening. There is no way one can remember how much torque is on those bolts. A little more adjusting here and there. This ends up stressing the plate below, and could deform it. You will never get the patented VTA to work ! So this is a mistake not in initial setup, but from an ongoing operation. A possible outcome if not observed and it is not covered in the manual. One person I know did not realize how much force he had placed on the plate below and he ended up actually cracking it. How I solved this problem was easy (like some things in our lives) Simple awareness and a habit change. If a level adjustment is needed, take 30 seconds and undo the torque on each vertical bolt; then re-apply this "minimal torque" as required on each bolt, as if setting them for the first time. This takes 2 minutes total time to do. This is very important and has worked well for me. If you have mounted the ET2 spikes on wood direct - you will never get the table/Et2 and the VTA to work properly as the spikes will dig in over time causing a shift with the different tensions used to get level initially. My two ET2(.5) are mounted naked on a solid brass billet pod with the SP10MKII, and on the Aluminum solid billet pod on the La Platine Granito Verdier (Mr. JC Verdier- RIP) Both are bolted down to the plinths below. The VTA works the pillar stays level. Metal ET2 spikes on a metal armboard. IMO - success with any analog rig regardless of the cost point comes from the setup and paying special attention to the details. One more detail - The one ET2 (.5) threaded mounting hole is filled with oil prior to inserting the bolt. If you are using a wood armboard do not put oil in it. |
****So my ET 2.5 runs with minimal torque on all screw connections. It sounds less artificial and more integrated to my ears.****
Hah! Precisely my observation. Very good exchange, Chris and Pegasus; thank you. |
all the leafs are brown... the fall is coming.. :-)
Yes Blue-Tak is something to have around, and I use it (I'm swiss :-) on my jewelers screw driver - when I remember...
No, I wasn't in LP mastering / cutting, but I have a profound interest on the electronic & physics side of that hobby. I make recordings of concerts at our place, and did some recordings already in the 70's with a semi-pro JVC portable cassette-deck from my brother.
And I did a few Magnepan modifications for customers, and made new low-diffraction panels, and calculated all new crossovers for MG3 and MG 3.3s.
I had to trade in the ET1 for the ET2, so I don't own it anymore, contrary to the ET 2 it was slightly crude in set-up and detail solutions - but it worked very well.
My main messages about the arm (which I always loved) are as follows:
- If the bass is off, it's probably the set-up (side level or maybe a too softly springed counterweight stud).
- If I only touch the VTA adjustment a bit on *my* ET2 - the side-leveling is severely off. If it's not, I was lucky. To check is better than to believe...
- The "critical theory" against air bearing arms, and specially the ET2, stands IMO on very shaky feet, as I tried to show above. If there is a structural problem it might be the slight elasticity in some of the joints.
- subchassis turntables have two main problems with an air bearing arm:
- the lever mechanism of the shifting mass offsets the subchassis (-> increases sideforces)
- The needle drag problem, ie. the varying friction with tracking, potentially sets up rotational forces in the subchassis, with every arm. This leads to a slight instability in the subchassis and pitch uncertainties. But it also kicks air bearing arms in a different, very undesirable and quite audible way: Side-ways. (Much more audible than a radial tonearm, where the kick goes much more along the stable axis needle to arm bearing).
So one gets both problems - the bass instability and the pitch instability.
But it's still feasible and it can sound very good.
- In my book of experiences, every screw that creates a touch more grip than needed to keep a joint or a connection from gliding, introduces quite severe grades of transistor-feedback sound. I understand this as a necessary minimal torque, but every further bit of torque is like tuning the screw up, in the sense of a steel string. Tune these down & out, and they ceae to resonate. It is less storage of resonant energy. So my ET 2.5 runs with minimal torque on all screw connections. It sounds less artificial and more integrated to my ears.
My ET 2.5 sits now on a partially spring suspended Technics SL1210 with some modification on the electronics. With a very old, original AT OC7, which sounds very, very good here. I know, it shouldn't :-) |
CT0517 - For me it is the audio wonder tweak. It holds, it dampens, it can even clean your stylus.... Blue-Tak audiophile tip # 115. Put a very small touch of Blue-Tak on your "audiophile" screwdriver tip. You know the one with the Cocobolo handle that is used to put the cartridges on and take them off. Presto ! you will never lose another screw in the carpet. Your wife will never hear you utter the words " Damn ! I just lost one of the screws, and now only have one like that one left ..they were a special one of kind pair buy from xxxx ". To this very day I am too scared to vacuum in the immediate vicinity of my analog rig for fear of hearing tinkle, tinkle, tinkle, tinkle, in the vacuum cleaner dirt holder. Screws from years past. I think there is a couple ET2 leaf springs down there too :^( |
Hello Pegasus Two posts that imo generate very good thought. I need to first say that ever since this ET2 thread started I get a special feeling in my gut whenever a long term ET2 owner posts in this thread for the first time. Especially when it is his first post on audiogon. Remember how this thread started - "Where are you guys ?" IMO - anyone that has owned ET2(.5) for a significant period of time, has been through a huge RE:LEARNING process with their records and how to play them, especially if your main tonearm before was a pivot arm. So welcome to this thread which I now see is about to touch 1/2 million views soon. Who knew ? When you say The main signal is cut laterally, one can safely assume that if there are very low frequencies on an LP it is cut *laterally*. The main disturbance laterallyis off-center records (0.55 Hz).
The off-phase info is cut vertically. The off-phae low frequency part is not doing anything helpful in normal rooms, so usually the LF signal below ca. 100Hz is blended to mono.
The normal warp & rumble zone is usually quoted between 2 to 5Hz - it leads basically to vertical accelerations. If one assumes that there are no important signals to be traced below 20 Hz or even below 50Hz (because the big excursions involved in low freq. creates problems for the cutting head *and* the cartridge. And because even in big listening rooms it is difficult to reproduce phase differences in LF) one places the optimal *vertical* resonance frequency between 5 and 20, or more radically even below 5 and 50Hz.
-> Vertical optimum is around SQR(5x20)=10 Hz or even SQR(5x50)=21 Hz
(so long so good, so often heard).
Horizontally there is a main disturbance at 0.55Hz (33.333rpm/60"), maybe 0.75 Hz (45rpm/60"). But there is a good reason to extend extraction of musical information like ELF reverb etc. down to at least 5Hz - if possible. Cutting and manufacturing LPs has several modes of creating vertical disturbances but only one or two horizontal issues: Off-center records (which actually could and should be corrected) and horizontal bumps on the cutting lathe - rare (but I have one such record in thousands of LPs).
So there is a moderate, but constant excitation/acceleration on 0.55Hz (basically correctable) and a useful extended LF range down to 5Hz which leads
to an
-> optimal horizontal res. frequency of SQR(0.75 * 5) = 2 Hz It is my understanding that bass below 100 hz is mono as well. Your comments make me curious whether you have been involved in the lp engineering/mastering side at all ? Do you still own the ET1 ? The decoupled counterweight of the ET 2 gives simply more freedom with problematic pairings of cartridge, arm and off-center records. Maybe, when it is not necessary, blocking the decoupling could have advantages sound-wise. A profound thought that IMO can only come from a long time owner with direct experiences. Indeed the ET2(.5) can accept all cartridges I have thrown at them so far, From extreme high compliance Sonus Blue Gold to the XV1 although the 2.5 by design is happier with heavier MC's. The problem is learning how to use the counterweight/springs does take time and patience. I am past the swapping of cartridges stage and have now settled in and just love listening to my music. BTW in my experience it is extremely important to have both the platter and arm *extremely* well levelled in the horizontal plane. Side-forces on the cartridge cantilever lead to plummy bass. Probably because a variable pull with varying tracking friction on a laterally deplaced cantilever gives dynamically varying side forces - which might energize the horizontal resonance. It sure is very audible. In my setup it is important to check regularly, floating the arm with two equal blobs of Blue-Tak on both sides of the arm, one at the backside of the arm, the other on the counterweight. Agree, in fact Bruce should have shipped ET2 (.5) all out with a pack of Blue-Tak. For me it is the audio wonder tweak. It holds, it dampens, it can even clean your stylus.... Cheers |
I remember this combo clearly because it was visible that it had rel. low damping and an unusually low resonance frequency. I knew and was used to tonearm/cartridge combos with "correct" resonance frequency. This one was incorrect - and sounded better than anything I had heard (in the low-mid frequencies, in dynamics and resolution).
If "correct" resonance frequency would be the main reason for optimal or non-optimal sound, such suboptimal resonance frequency should have almost destroyed any potential of good sound. (that's what I thought then).
The normal warp & rumble zone is usually quoted between 2 to 5Hz - it leads basically to vertical accelerations. If one assumes that there are no important signals to be traced below 20 Hz or even below 50Hz (because the big excursions involved in low freq. creates problems for the cutting head *and* the cartridge. And because even in big listening rooms it is difficult to reproduce phase differences in LF) one places the optimal *vertical* resonance frequency between 5 and 20, or more radically even below 5 and 50Hz.
-> Vertical optimum is around SQR(5x20)=10 Hz or even SQR(5x50)=21 Hz
(so long so good, so often heard).
Horizontally there is a main disturbance at 0.55Hz (33.333rpm/60"), maybe 0.75 Hz (45rpm/60"). But there is a good reason to extend extraction of musical information like ELF reverb etc. down to at least 5Hz - if possible. Cutting and manufacturing LPs has several modes of creating vertical disturbances but only one or two horizontal issues: Off-center records (which actually could and should be corrected) and horizontal bumps on the cutting lathe - rare (but I have one such record in thousands of LPs).
So there is a moderate, but constant excitation/acceleration on 0.55Hz (basically correctable) and a useful extended LF range down to 5Hz which leads
to an
-> optimal horizontal res. frequency of SQR(0.75 * 5) = 2 Hz
I agree that low horizontal res. frequency is not without problems (with highly off-center records). But preventing this problem with much higher (ie. standard) horizontal res. frequency means loosing very worthwile ELF information (which, as said above, is cut mainly in the horizontal plane.)
So the *often" alluded main "achilles heel" of air bearing arms is actually an advantage, in an "objective", physical sense. About the same time, I drew these thoughts up on paper, I found the new Mörch arm which does *exactly* follow these reasonings, with superb result. It couples the cartridge to a *very* high horizontal mass. Experiments show that the rigid coupling of that horizontal mass vs. the cartridge is sonically important.
The ET 2(.5) and other air bearing arms have the same high hor. mass advantage "built in for free".
The decoupled counterweight of the ET 2 gives simply more freedom with problematic pairings of cartridge, arm and off-center records.
Maybe, when it is not necessary, blocking the decoupling could have advantages sound-wise.
BTW in my experience it is extremely important to have both the platter and arm *extremely* well levelled in the horizontal plane. Side-forces on the cartridge cantilever lead to plummy bass. Probably because a variable pull with varying tracking friction on a laterally deplaced cantilever gives dynamically varying side forces - which might energize the horizontal resonance. It sure is very audible. In my setup it is important to check regularly, floating the arm with two equal blobs of Blue-Tak on both sides of the arm, one at the backside of the arm, the other on the counterweight. |
I'm a (very) long time user of the ET2 arm, I owned the ET one before. I still find the arm superb!
I have a first comment, others might follow.
The question of resonance frequency is mostly re-cycled from some sources, that did a lot of calculations a lot of time back. That's OK, but there is one aspect missing IMO.
The main signal is cut laterally, one can safely assume that if there are very low frequencies on an LP it is cut *laterally*. The main disturbance laterallyis off-center records (0.55 Hz).
The off-phase info is cut vertically. The off-phae low frequency part is not doing anything helpful in normal rooms, so usually the LF signal below ca. 100Hz is blended to mono.
This leads to severely different optimal resonance frequencies horizontally and vertically. More will follow.
Let it be said that my most memorable analog experience in the 70's was a FR64 & FR7 combo - it had *decidely* "suboptimal" resoance frequency, ie. far below 10Hz. It sounded better than anything else I heard at that time, and I still the *bass" and ambience of that front end. There's a physical reason for it, I think. |
I'm a bit confused by mine though. Do I need a special turntable? :^) Welcome to the da club Banquo363. Interesting sellers pic of the ET2 you posted. I did a double take on it. I assume (like the others here?) that the seller had little knowledge of the ET2 based on this pic, and was therefore just the seller and not the previous owner. The armtube is showing 2 o'clock time. The seller needed to roll it back 5 hours (counter clockwise) to get to the 9 o'clock position to be correct for the sales ad picture. You got yourself an ET2 with a carbon fibre armwand and cartridge too. A type of aluminum ? pod / tonearm holder by the looks of it. I wonder what is inside the pod ? guess we will find out ..I think some real audio hobby passion went into this one by someone ...... fwiw - take notice of the green bubble level on the manifold. From my experiences these don't work with the ET2 and this is why. 1) Turntables are made from different parts. Getting one part level whether the plinth, platter, tonearm base...does not guarantee all of them will be level especially the air bearing spindle. I level in this order 1) the platter, 2) The ET2 with its own leveling spikes 3) The air bearing spindle last - using gravity not my eyes for 3 and by making it free float and not move. Think teeter totter with two same weighted friends. 2)If you do this with your eyes and the bubble level you are ignoring the effect of the wires - push or pull when the armtube is placed at the platter outer, inner edges and midpoint. Once leveled by free floating the bubble level may be out a little. This is the effect of the wires from my experiences. Leveling without the wires first then adding the wires in would confirm this. |
New member of the owner's club here. I'm a bit confused by mine though. Do I need a special turntable? |
Frogman - BTW, the Forsell still sits in the box (es) :-( Frogman - this indicates to me that you are happy with the current set up. enjoy the music :-) fwiw - I find it very ironic and kind of funny actually that your Forsell, and my JN Lenco, two highly praised tables from a particular bloggers webage, lie in storage..... albeit for different reasons. Fascinating hobby. LK - VdHul silver wires, a little stiff from what I can gather imo - stiff for this ET2 air bearing application - not great. In another air bearing application where the design needs the wire to resist a little for damping - another story. Which do you feel is a better design ? Stiff wire inside a speaker cabinet - not a bad thing. my experiences - Braided unshielded wires help to resist RF, which is a good thing. But the wire itself become very unruly with a mind of its own when braided and asked to curve just a little. This can become a real PITA real fast. Where it leaves the armtube my wires are separated like strands of hair. Their physical resistance is cut by at least half by doing this. Each wire is then tested for RF individually. Preamp muted, lower the stylus onto a still record, unmute your preamp phonostage turn the volume up - move each wire around until things are quiet. Hold in place with blue tack. Look forward to your impressions LK. Cheers |
Thanks Again CT,
Have done a careful 1st setup trying to free the wires as far as possible, the arm came with VdHul silver wires, a little stiff from what I can gather, will only find out what she does once I get compressor connections done with moisture filter, hopefully tomorrow, its been quite a challenge just getting male to female to androgenous etc...
talk about affect vs effect!
Have a loaned MM for these early learning days, till I find my ET feet... but it looks gorgeous with a new clean plexiglass surface to hide the old surface damage on Goldmund acrylic, resprayed the base with quality german metallic black, Goldmund is back to beautiful...
Will test as is before I alter the springs etc, but I hear a majority in favour. My room is quite large, with a T&G hardwood floor, on a stainless steel spiked stand with double glass shelves separated by sorbothane, have to take all this into acount before altering the system.
IMHO Pierre Lurne who I think designed these Goldmund TT's was no slouch, there's a lot of brilliant thinking in there.
Thanks again for all the info, as I've been setting up this machine I realise how much brilliant engineering has gone into the design, its like an open ended musical annotation system, just waiting for someone to understand it... |
Chris, I agree re firm pneumatic suspension; that was the best solution for me given my table's environment. My TNT sits on a wall shelf which fixed the springy floor problem I was having, but created others. With my previous HW19's (II, III & IV) I experimented with just about everything. The sound was best with upturned large tiptoes, but settled on upturned short tiptoes sitting inside Sorbothane pucks as the best compromise. I did not like sound with the springs nearly as much.
BTW, the Forsell still sits in the box (es) :-( |
Hi LK Regarding the air hose. I had Bruce set the air hose nozzle pointing up on my 2.5. So no hole needed to be drilled. If the nozzle is pointing down it can also be turned up and re epoxied but you need to be careful with this depending on its condition. Its an alternative. regarding the wiring. this was one of the revelations for me as far as owning this tonearm. If I may use the analogy of walking a dog. For me achieving a good setup with my ET tonearm is like training a dog and the wire loom is the leash. A well trained dog never tugs on the leash and the leash always remains limp to the handler. The ET2 doesn't need the wiring and/or air tube as some other air bearing linear trackers do in their design for damping - its a free spirit and just wants to ride the grooves that are not crazy eccentric. Anyone that has moved the spindle in and out of the manifold with just 3 psi, knows what we are talking about - think - Slippery. So a recommendation for later on. Pull the wiring from the armtube/spindle areas. Set the ET2 up and balance it without the wires. Then add the wires. You will see first hand how much the wires affect its movement. Without doing this you just don't know how much effect the wires have. effect vs affect above - I can never remember ? so I used both - 50/50. As far as setting up the wires on the ET2 once balanced without them; simply add/run the wires along the armtube (are you and "in'ee or and out'ee") direct to your phono stage with a happy face loop in between to remind you of the great setup job you did. :^) thats it. I am still searching for a wireless solution btw. HNTB and Frogman - regarding suspensions. My opinion is there are suspensions and then there are suspensions. Think firm Pneumatic suspension. Frogman
+1 on removing springs; certainly trying it. Never owned the Goldmund, but have done so with three VPI's with great results. I also removed the springs from a HW19MKIV and TNT. Went pucks with the HW19 and Pneumatic with the TNT. a pic of the TNT is in my system page. I believe you are also running a pneumatic type suspension now on your TNT Frogman ? |
I'd like to increase the bidding to 150 Brooklyn squirrels..... Frogman - I'm confused by your bid. I offered - 100 Canadian Loonies. real moneyYou offered 150 Brooklyn squirrels ? Now I have to confess growing up as a kid I was influenced by the American tv show Rocky and Bullwinkle. "Rocky" being a flying squirrel. So I would have issue with this squirrel delicacy you speak of.... even though I do seem to get a real kick out of of Duck Dynasty. |
**** If I may start bidding at 100 Canadian loonies....(without pictures). I blame this ridiculous starting bid on the relentless pounding my ears have been taking from the crazy bird - the Loon, croaking of bullfrogs, wolves howling, hooting of owls, and the splash of jumping sm bass .. on the end of my line. must be delirious. ****
Sounds like great music to me! I'd like to increase the bidding to 150 Brooklyn squirrels.....wait!....am I mistaken? Is it Down Under where Dover resides; or is it the Deep South, where squirrels are a delicacy? :-)
+1 on removing springs; certainly trying it. Never owned the Goldmund, but have done so with three VPI's with great results. |
Dear Leon & Chris, I´m a man of peace & tranquility, that´s why I prefer solid TTs ;-)
To be honest (and to my own embarrassment), I wasted nearly half my life on suspended decks. Well tuned suspension works on all environments but it is always a compromise on sound nevertheless, unfortunately.
I would suggest large spiked brass columns attached under the upper plinth and you will have dead suspension.
Ugh, I have spoken. |
Dear Ct 0157 (Feel like I'm in Star Wars here...)
& Dear Harold...
Thanks a mill for all the feedback, I'm digesting it all as I'm setting up the TT & ET, had some help getting started from an ET owner as some parts were missing or imperfect, a huge help thanks Gerald!
Have to do a few more mods to the Studio platform, possibly a hole for the air hose to allow free movement for the arm without causing bending stress etc.
I've had some Cardas interconnects made up, will probably hardwire the V D Hul cable from the ET to avoid contacts, with sufficient play, using an old MM magnet just to get started, so many things to learn here!
I can see where your critical comment re Studio springs come from, but surely they are intended to decouple the arm from vibrations? What would you use instead please, I'm definitely interested as I can see how much they move with the arm sliding...
Many Thanks, hope to get music out of there soon which is ultimately the objective!
Best LK |
you could also let me know how much you want for it may I suggest a public auction for the titanium armwand...as this thread is now over 420k views I think there may be interest in the titanium piece? The bidding method should fetch I believe the best price for Dover if he is interested in selling. If I may start bidding at 100 Canadian loonies....(without pictures). I blame this ridiculous starting bid on the relentless pounding my ears have been taking from the crazy bird - the Loon, croaking of bullfrogs, wolves howling, hooting of owls, and the splash of jumping sm bass .. on the end of my line. must be delirious. Look forward to seeing the pics... Received two more emails from folks interested in the aluminum gooseneck and one of them wants two of them. Surely there must be a CAD person reading here that can help us out. Firstly just get rid of the flimsy & unstable suspension of that Studio (it´s floating not hanging) and you´ll be facing hugely improved performance level of that great DD TT. You can also tame the springs but it would be better to take them away altogether. Your Goldmund deserves this tweak. HNTB This hobby being what it is - I would be curious if you polled 10 Goldmund owners who felt they had dialed this table in, how the split would be - springs and without ? Cheers |
Dear Leon, Firstly just get rid of the flimsy & unstable suspension of that Studio (it´s floating not hanging) and you´ll be facing hugely improved performance level of that great DD TT. You can also tame the springs but it would be better to take them away altogether. Your Goldmund deserves this tweak.
Best regards |
Dover
Having a titanium arm tube sitting around somewhere unused, you must be highly satisfied with the one piece gooseneck a la Krebs, and aluminium armtube.
What difference did you hear when you went to a one piece gooseneck a la Krebs?
Give me a convenient time and I'll come round and photograph the titanium wand: many will be interested (you could also let me know how much you want for it). |
Dover.
Ketchup, me and probably others are still waiting for some pics of the aluminium goose neck and hopefully the titanium wand from you.
Look forward to this. |
