Eminent Technology ET-2 Tonearm Owners

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Dave, I thought it was because of a bad bottle of wine the night before.

the first time I heard thread on the TNT it was like - WOW
it showed me what was possible but.......

As I experimented more I learned the table had two big constraints.
The pulley and platter/bearing system was never designed for thread.
Even though the music was much improved I knew I was fighting the design.

To give you an idea of what I mean by this - purchase affordable Gutermann Silk Thread CA 02776

Set up the TNT or any VPI deck with it and see how long it lasts.  A couple weeks maybe from what I recall based on heavy rotation of lps.

Now on the thread designed table it will last .......until you maybe break it by mistake. Thats how much thread tension difference there is between the VPI and Verdier.

I am a bit anal when it comes to design. Better design always trumps and leads to better results in the end depending on what you are after. So I ended up with a string drive designed turntable.

Now Verdier did add the belt option to his table in later years for business sales reasons; but he did also include a separate pulley system for belt.
And here is the thing - some owners of these tables do not know you need to use different pulleys depending on how it is used.

Cheers Chris

"Why am I able to remember this but can’t remember where I left the keys ?"

Someteimers (vs Alzheimers). Frequent syndrome for fathers of teens and post-teens.

Best to you Chris,
Dave

Hi Dave - going from memory from many years ago I think I can see 57.90's on the SDS display window for the thread setup I had on the TNT ?

Why am I able to remember this but can't remember where I left the keys ?

Mike from VPI at the time recommended the Spider fishing line which he used. Go into the fishing store and find 15 types of Spider line.  Anyway did not have any success with fishing line or the Kevlar that I ordered in.

Eric et al - the thread/floss is a slippery slope - prepare yourself for it 

Once there - there is no return - like this tonearm. for me anyway. 

Hi Chris,

I don't recall exactly, but I did have to change the setting. It is set at 58.04 FWIW. 

I did forget to include that above. What a kind and clever way to point that out :)

Best to you Chris,
Dave

Nice setup Eric 

Wish you guys were closer so we could hang out. With cold weather here soon for me, I will be spending a lot more time In My Room :^)

Dave - how much did you have to bump up the frequency on your speed controller for  the floss ?

Cheers
Chris 

Hi Eric,

Sounds like you are off to a good start. My experience agrees with that of your friend re: the sandbox vs the air platform. If your TNT has springs vs air bladders/handballs, the air bladder under the sandbox can be of additional benefit. Your ears will tell.

Current thinking (at least my understanding of it) is that soft interfaces do indeed dissipate external vibration coming from beneath, but trap internal resonances within the component on top (wrong-way isolation vs transmission). Check out the Symposium website for further (better) explanation. I recently installed metal footers (SR MiG 2.0s) between my SACD player and Symposium Svelte metal-foam-metal sandwich-type platforms and recognize the sonic benefits of reducing internal resonance there.

It never occurred to me to consider the sand type. I used play sand that I let dry for a long while. I did place some industrial heatsinks hidden within the sand to dissuade the sand from packing and to provide additional mass. All sorts of creative ideas can come into play here.

On the floss drive, the drugstore variety of unwaxed dental floss is fine. Use the belts you have to determine the length needed. Tie it off with your best knot (check the web for suggested knots if you are so inclined) ensuring that the knot will not slip under pressure/tension. Dental floss is surprisingly strong so no worries about breaking it. Place the floss around the center platter groove. It helps to have a patient someone assist. Now, while holding the floss under slight tension, work it around the flywheel pulley while moving the flywheel outwardly to apply moderate tension as you let go. Do the same between flywheel pulley and motor pulley.Turn ’er on and see what you think.

You could even use two runs of floss positioned as your belts are now for better distribution of the load on your platter/flywheel/motor bearings, but I wouldn’t suggest trying that on your first attempt. Explicatives are probable.

In my case, the sound is much faster and my TNT lost a great deal (the right amount) of its tendency to sound fat and slow.

Cheap and not time consuming, so if you don’t prefer it little is lost, assuming no unfortunate incidents with your arm/stylus.

Best to you Eric,
Dave

Hi Dave,

I haven't tried the Brightstar Platform by itself. When this is combined with the sand box as you can see in the thread, I like the sound. Good solid sound stage and feeling very low noise floor.

The entire platform, sandbox and TT/Tonearm came from a friend (He sold me the ET2/TNT last year, then he found this Brightstar in his store room recently and send to me separately).

His comment is that with the Brightstar only, its good isolation but the sound is not solid (he describe the sound as floating, I hope you know what it means :P ). He is actually the one suggested me to add a sandbox on the Brightstar and the effect is exactly as he describe to me. He mentioned he did ABC test years ago with only Sandbox, only Brightstar and both.

Working like mine is best (Sandbox on Brightstar), but if only one can be chosen, he prefers the sand box, as this give good isolation and solid soundstage. The choice of sand is also important, we went into lengthy discussion and also based on my experience playing with sand in speaker stand. I choose rather large size quartz sand (each sand is the size of rice), too fine sand actually damp the sound too deadly.

For the Dental Floss, I haven't tried it yet, I need some education on this, how to source and fit. I did compare dual belts and single belt as suggested by some veteran in the VPI forum. And I agree that I like the dual belt setup better, seems to give me more solid bass.

Best Regards
Eric

Awesome Eric.

Before you polish further, I have found that a product called "Detail Doctor Instant Restorer" I discovered in the "As seen on TV" section of Walgreen’s/Walmart works wonders. Just wipe on and wipe off. Take care not to get any on the glossy acrylic plinth.

Care to share your impressions of the effects of the Brightstar platforms on your TNT’s sound?

Have you tried using unwaxed dental floss in place of the belts?

Best to you Eric,
Dave

Hi there,

Here is my latest setup

http://vpiindustries.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=8125

Cheer
Eric

@nandric ,

Electret thread initiated in analog forum: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/electret-transducer-cartridges-vs-mm-and-mc-what-are-your-exp...

Best,
Dave

Hi nandric,

I don’t think you will experience reprisal here over your comments on the ET Two, made in jest or otherwise. We are all confident in the virtues of this arm based on years of listening (and also of tweaking) and comparing, thus knowing that the majority of criticisms come from those that have not made the effort/lack the knowledge to set it up right and/or tried to use it on an incompatible turntable.

Will do re: starting a new thread on the Electrets IF you will help get it off the tarmac.

Best to you nandric,
Dave

Hi Chris,

You were right as usual re: the Symposium-modded TNT using Rollerblocks as the sole support for the plinth and the corner footers being for show only. I will attempt to contact jloveys hoping to get some pointers. Thanks for the tip.

nandric: Have to agree with you on the best MC vs MM. The Orpheus L on the ET Two (jabs aside) is on another level vs my MMs/Electrets, yet I still enjoy the latter in my vintage system, especially on beloved non-audiophile rock LPs from the 70s/80s..

Best to you both,
Dave

Hi Nikola.
yeah, I agree with you.

decent
of an acceptable standard; satisfactory.

I still do own some "decent" tonearms.
But because of the ET2.0 and ET 2.5 they don't get used much.
I also still have these three Turntables, even though I use only one really, and only have two ET tonearms. You need a tonearm on every TT.  8^0

This analog stuff just seems to keep going up in value every year,  so I am not really being pushed to get rid of anything extra. .... unlike digital gear.

Dave- I knew I had seen that VPI Symposium set up before.
see this link.

https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/2426

A search on symposium brought it up.
Jloveys is an AudioGon member.
Pic 10 of 15 is a good shot showing the footers holding up all the weight.
I like his taste in speakers. :^)

Cheers Chris

Hi Chris,

"I would add "in this room" to the end of that statement."

Agree, but is this not true of all masterings and much more so of the offerings by MFSL, etc that use "standard" mastering techniques? An engineer uses whatever speakers they prefer played in whatever acoustical environment they have concocted to perform "adjustments" to the master to sound the most pleasing to their ears?

According to Stockfisch, this "mastering" step was eliminated and the sound of the un-molested product was compared to the master as was their non-DMM version of the same track available on other Stockfisch offerings, also un-molested, just sans the "analog" step. Of course the sound of the room entered into this comparison as this is unavoidable, just as the personal preferences of each person’s ear/brain are unavoidable.

My wife prefers the non-DMM Stockfisch versions as she is accustomed to the less-analog-like sound of normal CD/SACD. There is an audible difference between the two versions. Preferences are what they are, based on what one perceives to be more realistic or pleasing to their ears/brain.

I would encourage you and others to try this comparison through your system and in your room and share your preferences.

BTW - I am admittedly one of the old farts that vehemently refuses to introduce computers into my primary source of relaxation and escape from angst. I have no others, by rule, to mishandle my media and personally enjoy the rituals of touching, reading, cleaning, loading, and even storing/arranging the real-matter versions of the media. I may well be a librarian at heart. lol

Best to you Chris,
Dave

Hi Dave

my kids have been asking me for a lot of music lately, from all over the place. I don't mean different genres. I mean the cd's were all over the place, in my rooms. I have come to the realization that I am a terrible filer of music,
but also that I am a pretty good listener :^)   I somehow know where i put these things down and they can be found.  But if I am looking for music that was not played in a while, or I filed it away to get it off the table or floor. Good Luck.

So I got fed up looking for these things, and ripped that music too, to the external hard drive. These days all my digital is on files and is played

external hard drive >>> dedicated laptop >>>>> DAC8

*************************

re the stockfisch link. - thanx for the link. Just a comment on their summary.

With critical listening tests, this combination has proven to us to be the optimal chain when it comes to obtaining a sound as close as possible to the master.

I would add "in this room" to the end of that statement.  Just my opinion. 

There are just too many variables in each of our rooms to ignore it (the Room).

I posted a reply to the Empire cart on your virtual system.

Cheers Chris

Hi Chris,

I think the feet in the pic from the link I posted, if rigid, are maybe used in conjuction with the Symposium footers, perhaps for improved weight distribution or additional vibration transfer/absorption. I really like the piece under the bearing housing.  I may inquire about that.

BTW - I posted a better (I think?) explanation of the Empire 4000 D/III cartridge orientation on my system page in case you didn't see it...

I have been playing with a used Sony SCD-XA5400ES SACD/CD player with good results on premium SACD material. I have a Modwright-version of this player headed my way soon.  High hopes for this Modwright player as my final digital front-end based on listening to the stock unit and the raves, both in reviews and from friends, about the Modwrighted unit's sonic performance.

In the pursuit of my TOTL SACD material, I found this:

http://www.stockfisch-records.de/pages_art/sf12_dmmcd_e.html#text

They use a DMM master played as an LP on a cutting lathe with an EMT arm/cartridge to feed the recording/mastering equipment.  The Vol 1 sampler delivers the best sound I have ever heard, even using the Redbook layer on my Ayre CDP, including, yes, my analog rig. 8^O
The SACD layer is even better.

Best to you Chris,
Dave

Hi Dave

that link shows quite the elaborate effort.

It appears from the pic to be a string driven first platter, which is then connected to the main platter as a rim drive ? You can tell the tension of the string is pretty taut as mechanical bearings are being used. The VPI TT feet shown are now just dummies? as the TT is being supported by the symposium footers.

From personal experience the stock TNT, even though it was designed for the original ET2;  is the bottleneck with a properly set up ET2. In fact this is the case with all turntables I have owned.  I say this because each time my TNT and other TT setups improved, they just took the ET 2.0 and 2.5 to new levels.

I still do think these pics looks cool....

http://imcedb.com/images/1/1c/Indecent_turntable.png

http://imcedb.com/images/1/12/Indecent_stereo.png

Give some thread to Robert Redford, a better speed controller and that turntable setup will change the way he listens to his music.

Notice the FWFO** ET2 weights setup in the second picture link above.
**Fewest Weights Furthest Out = Highest Vertical Inertia

What does concern me with the second pic is that there doesn't appear to be any climate control. Look to the left of Robert Redford. Appears to be wide open to the elements. I think this is what we can call operating that air bearing under extreme conditions. The sound will change with a tropical storm. :^)

Only in the movies as they say.

Cheers Chris

Chris,

A while back you posted a link to some cool pics of Redford using a TNT/ET Two rig in the movie "Indecent Proposal".

Check this setup out:

http://www.symposiumusa.com/images/PCwRBJRLARGE.jpg

Ever seen anything like this?

Best to you Chris,
Dave

Raul - from personal experience in my room when you have multiple bass drivers, one positioned high near the ceiling and one low - pointed at the listener. The effect of the output from the woofers is that the bass waves cancel each other out. The sound is much smoother, bass notes stop and start quicker. There are no standing waves.

It costs a lot to do this type of speaker design, they are tall and substantial for the top woofer to reach high and for the cabinetry to be able to hold the weight. They are very imposing in the room. If a manufacturer makes this type of speaker they are usually their flagship line. Not many made like this anymore
.

Remember subs main/primary premise is not to have deeper bass or " boom boom " but better quality overall system performance with lower distortions!.

Well the job of the subwoofer is to reproduce low frequencies. In most cases, the bottom two octaves, from 20Hz to ....the higher frequency varies for each persons room. Now I believe in all designs (someone correct me if I am wrong in this assumption) the least distortion for any design, will be when the sub is working the least - IMO.

When it is working is triggered by when it has been set to kick on (the frequency), and how loud it has been set to play at when it kicks on. This second part is IMO key (how loud it has been set for), especially if someone is using One subwoofer. let me explain.
   
If anyone owns one subwoofer and you want to learn how clean it can play - lowest distortion try this experiment with one subwoofer.

Place it a few feet to the left or the right of your listening position. If it used to be on the other side of the room, change the dial on the phase control 180 degrees to start.
Start playing your music; if the sub used to be close to your main speakers on the other side of the room, you will need to turn the db level of the sub down at least 60 - 70%.
Set it up for your music. You will not be able to tell that it is next to you. In fact you can play a game with your audio friends. 
Camouflage the sub with a nice cover. Let your friends sit in your chair, start playing music and ask your friends to tell you where the sub is located. They will point to a far corner somewhere. They will be surprised when you tell them it is 3 feet beside them. try it ...

**********
True Story

Two weeks ago my 22 year old son comes over with his truck.  As it pulls into the driveway, I was able to can hear the vehicle thumping with bass from before he entered the driveway. Fed up I told him we are going to try something. For the record this vehicle comes with decent stock stereo (for car stereo ) I think sourced from Alpine and has a nice big cabin (Room). He has added a JL Audio amp/controls under the passenger seat, and two JL Audio Drivers under the back seat in a long custom box. The first thing I noticed was that his stock sub was still on. Why? It was redundant and competing with the JL Audios. We went to the dash and turned off the vehicles stock sub. I then reached down under the passenger seat where the controls were - I turned the frequency the sub kicked in, a little lower and turned the db level from 6 ! ....to 3. I asked him to play some music. He could not believe it. I can now hear the bass he commented. I felt good but it was short lived. Couple days ago he asked if I could show him how to turn it back the way it was, just so he could learn how to do it. I think its one of these things when guys get together that your vehicle needs to be thumping. :^(

Dear @ct0517 : I don't have a dedicated room. I took around one year to my subs position and levels be " just perfect ".

What means " just perfect "?, first that you can't identify where the subs sounds comes, everything ( overall system frequency range. ) comes from in between speakers and extended beyond but sounds emmanate from in between. Second you never need to change the SPL of the subs, simple stay with the final overall set up. If you need to change the subs set up with different LPs then your final set up is not yet final and needs more " work " to achieve that goal.

In my system its position is in front of the main speakers ( satellite ones. ) looking each to other sub not looking to the seat position but at right/left side: front to front. Are not directly seated in the floor/ground but around 40 cms. up and with 30 kg dead weigth in its top plate.

Yes I listened four subs in my system many years ago when I owned too: two Audio-Pro ( Sweden ones. ). As a fact the ideal way to add subs in any audio system is using four subs to eliminate any single standing room waves.

Remember subs main/primary premise is not to have deeper bass or " boom boom " but better quality overall system performance with lower distortions!.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Chris,

Another intelligent and insightful post. The path in the carpet to my subs is worn from countless trips to and from for adjustment or simply turning them on or off depending on the media. From recording to recording I find that the subs either augment or detract from my musical enjoyment and your posit on the variability of mastering decisions, which cannot be altered after the fact, is the best theory that I have read or heard to date. 

Additionally, having a dedicated room, I have the freedom to place the subs wherever I like, and have spent many hours trying to tune placement to best effect, yet periodically wonder if the sweet spot is yet to be discovered.

Is it worth it? Depends on one's level of OCD affliction, the subject room/system and, as you describe, the media itself.

Best,
Dave

The subwoofer phenomena is an interesting one, but logical IMO, as far as progression goes in this Audio business. There are not too many people that have dedicated rooms, that can place full range speakers on the room loading points. So manufacturers followed with subwoofer audiophile lines to meet this demand. It’s a good business model imo.

As we know with subwoofers you can place them in the general area of where you want them, then set when they are active, and amount of db level with the phase control you need. Still the person with the dedicated room will be able to go further down the rabbit hole if these bass modules can be placed on the room loading points to begin with.

The real issues I find with bass does not get much discussion on forums and it deals with the way the music has been engineered to begin with. Different genres of music and even different recordings within the same genre use different compression levels, engineering techniques. Different albums need different bass settings.

Now most people I know with subwoofers have a dial on the actual box/es that they use to set phase and db level, etc... In order to tailor the sound for different music the person needs to get up go to the sub/s and change them. This doesn’t work for me.

In my room B, I am using two Dynaudio BM12s subs that have a credit card sized remote that can be preset for A - B - C - D . Each letter represents different settings. When the music has been engineered with too much bass or too little, the levels are easily adjusted from the listening chair. Unless you can train your dog to change the levels while you listen; this works very well, for me anyway.

Raul - have you ever heard a system that had four bass modules in the room? I am not referring to four on the ground. But Two on the ground. Two up near the ceiling. Four in total facing the listener for two channel music.

Dear @dlcockrum : I know that the Krell amp is a powerful item but even that and even that works almost all tghe time looking 2 ohms impedance from the Thiels this means more distress and higher distortion that if the amp works at a little higher impedance. That distress could means too more " fatigue " for the amp power suply and output transistors. So, it's not only to think that the amp can make " easy " that work, there are side issues to look for and care.

My suggestion of that tefloncap/nude Vishay resistor at the amp inputs still is a good alternative and inside that first order Thiel filter design. As a fact is the kind of filter that makes less harm to the sound signal.

No one sub I know works in the high pass with first order filter design.

When we are talking of subwoofers for an stereo system dedicated to listen music there is one parameter of critical importance and this is the THD of the subwoofer and in this regards no one is even near the 0.5% of thwe sealed Velodynes thank's that its design monitoring the woofer excursions over 16K times per second to mantain that so lower THD. Nothing can beat it on quality performance. Otehr can go lower or sound more powerful but with loweer quality performance and its croosver design is a decent one.

I own the out of production HGS-15 but you can find out ( second hand ) the DD-15 ( newer model. ) that in my opinion performs better than the DD-18 or in my case HGS-18.

In the other side you can buy a top croosover to hadle the signal from your preamp to the Krell and to the RELs.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Hi Raul,

I trust that you and many others have heard the benefit of eliminating the low frequency signal to the main speakers. The YG Acoustics speakers that my friend has have separate powered woofer sections and also he uses JL Audio Gotham subs. Again, he relies on digital room equalization to make all of this complexity work together and well, according to his reports.

True, the RELs have no high-pass output as they were designed to do something different and that they do well IMO. What sub that you own or have heard has high-enough quality internal crossovers to do this well without introducing other compromises to the sound? I would prefer to handle the high pass/low pass filter this way vs modding the Thiels (which would also not relieve the low-frequency-reproduction challenge for my amplifiers). But then there is the additional long runs of low-level cabling needed to use a sub crossover solution...

Yesterday, I experimented with using my HT processor to alter the low-frequency hand-off between the Thiels and the RELs. Some promising results in the bass, but there was pervasive degradation to every other sound criteria as one would expect from this "mid fi" approach.

Since I cannot afford the latest and (maybe) better-than-what-I-have-now plug-and-play components, I find satisfaction in experimenting with carefully-chosen tweaks and acknowledged "better-than-they-could-possibly-be-for-the-price" components from the past.

Right now I am enjoying power supply upgrades to the SR cables/cords’ active shielding (great results for small $$) and, soon, SR Black fuses (due to arrive Friday). I just picked up a Sony 5400ES SACD/CD player that I may have ModWrighted with improved clock, separate dedicated PS, and tubed output. Claimed to be a "Giant Killer".

Begging the pardon of my ET Two friends (particularly Chris) for this shamefully non-related indulgence.

Thanks as always, Raul, for your contributions and advice,
Dave

@dlcockrum : The external crossover we need to do that could be only for the subs but not use that croosver for the speakers main amplifier where a technician can easily to make the first order high pass down at the amplifier inputs through a cap and resistor combination calculated for a 80 hz high pass filter.

As me you can use a top teflon cap and the best Vishay nude resistor, both extremely transparent. In this way the signal inside your speakers will stay almost untouched.

Why 80 hz or even a little higher as 100 hz instead 50 hz?, because that first order Thiel croosover where the single 8" woofer that handles a frequency range from 50 hz to 400 hz ( I think. ? ) right now is taken frequencies way lower than 50 hz and with higher IMD/THD that if you liberate it.
In the other side your amp will works with lower distress that's mean lower distortions too.

Advantages are many only  we just do it. Believe you don't now today the real capacities of your very nice audio system and you will be " surprised " for say the least when you listen it in that configuration.

Regards and enkoy the music,
R.

Dear @dlcockrum :  The main and critical subject to add a pair of  self powered subwoofers integrated in true stereo fashion ( this is that the main speakers will function as " satelite " ones. ) is to lower significatively the INTERMODULATION DISTORTION and THD too.

In those all times from where comes your speakers and mine almost no single designer ( as JT. ) was thinking on designs with integrated subs, maybe only ATC was marketing active speakers as a ATC philosophy and not necessary with suibs.

Today the best speakers comes with integrated powered subs ( Vandersteen 7 is one of them but many more out there. ) for that critical subject.

In your speakers those two small woofers ( that can even one 12". ) are handling frequencies from  over 100 hz ( first order filter. ) don 20 hz . Are so small that can't really " drive "  in the right way bass range from 40 hz and down and this means high distortions but at the same time those drivers are trying to " drive " 25 hz-30hz-40 hz-80 hz- etc and the high excursion of the drivers because the low frecuencies affect e increment a lot the IMD in the whole frequency range of those drivers.

"""   it concerns me regarding tampering with Jim Thiel’s ingenius 1st-order crossover... """

No, you can't do that but only an outstanding overall improvement that you don't have today, you just can't imagine till you do it and listen it. The whole subject is not to reinforce the low bass but put at minimum that elusive IMD/THD in the very hard to handle low bass range, benfits as better quality bass performance is only a side benefit.

Problem in your system are the RELs that has not ( no sense to me. ) a high pass control. Rels are very good as system bass reinforcement but not to really help to have a better quality overall performance.

When I posted the thread in the link I send to you almost no one believe on what I posted there. This already changed today and not only music lovers as all of us but speaker manufacturers that now knows not only about that IMD/THD but that exist no passive drivers that can handle with aplomb the low bass range and not only does not exist but that are not mated with a dedicated amplifier that match the drivers needs in exactly and precise way.

Even speakers as the big Wilson can has a real benefit ( incredible. ) if their woofers been active instead passive.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Hi Eric,

I have the Bright Star Audio "Big Rock for TNT" sandbox/air bladder combo. After some experimentation, I chose not to use the air bladder in my rig. My house is build on concrete slab and I have the VPI/Firestone air bladders in the TNT corner columns (feet). Your results may be entirely different.

Also, I ended up with my TNT sitting on a corian piece with the corian sitting on top of the edges of the sandbox (not bedded on sand). VPI motor is bedded on sand. You can see pics on my virtual systems page if you wish.

Hard to predict what what will ultimately work best for you. Just experiment with and without air bladder and also creative combos of slabs and placements. Fun, fun! You are in for a treat my friend!


Best to you,
Dave

Eric et al - I don't know how Bruce makes such good quality parts for what he sells them for. Just glad he is there and his tonearm still a leader in design and execution.

We do know he has his plane. I assume he has made some interesting contacts in the aviation field; maybe this is how he is able to do it.

I tell my kids that education is critical to your success; but in the end its the contacts that will get you there. Wherever you are headed.

On a side note I just remembered something. I spent some time this summer with a few friends helping out a buddy, replace the Gimbal bearing in his boat motor assembly. You know I couldn't help but think about how it worked and making comparisons to gimballed bearing tonearms. I did not mention this to them. :^)

Now there is a great combination - pressed steel, grease, then add a whole bunch of water to it all. Keeps the service repair business humming along.

Hi all,

Haven't posted here for a while. I acquired a local China brand air pump (FFYX which made its own air bearing tonearm and turntable), not cheap (around 600 USD), but its super quiet and cool. It provides about 4 psi to my ET2. I think I will stick with this for a little while.

On the other hand, my vinyl system is continuously being tweaked. While I rebuild my ET2, I got the new Aluminum arm base and clamp from Bruce, and also added the VTA dial. Still tuning.

Found a used Bright Star Air Isolation Platform and a custom made sand box for the VPI TNT, and look forward to have its current owner to ship to me.

Cheers
Eric

Raul,

Before reading your post in the link you supplied, I had already heard and described the "unexpected to me" influences that the dual-REL subs have on my system’s sound, perhaps using somewhat different and less precise descriptives than you do in that post.

Like you say there:
"- better quality low bass ( you can have at least one more octave ) and mid bass "
"- An improvement in the soundstage reproduction in all parameters: deep, front/side location, wide of the stage, etc..."

In my system, I would add something like:
"-an improvement in imaging, air, and a sense of infinite space around the performers and within the soundstage itself"

The other key point you bring to that post is improvement resulting from relieving the main speakers and amplifiers of the difficult lower-octave reproduction challenge. I understand this to imply introducing an external crossover into the signal path of the main system (if I am mistaken, please correct me). I do not yet do this, as it concerns me regarding tampering with Jim Thiel’s ingenius 1st-order crossover and the (extremely) low probability of my feeble speaker design skills bettering Jim’s in this regard. A mental picture of Jim turning over in his grave comes to mind (I assure everyone that I mean absolutely no disrespect or levity to Jim’s passing).

A very good friend of mine has a stratospherically high-performance and high-priced system. He recently wrote me singing the praises of the room-correction software that he acquired with/for his dual JL Audio Gotham subs. He only uses digital sources, asserting that "turntables do add a certain pleasing warmth to the sound, but are ultimately inferior in accurate high-performance sound reproduction". We agree to (strongly) disagree on this for the sake of our continued friendship.

I would think that, with the almost unimaginable capability that today’s computers have to capture, analyze, and process billions (trillions?) of data points that this would indeed be the way to go re: add-on crossovers compared to the analog domain ones I have used (the then-SOTA external crossovers provided with the Apogee Divas I set up and meticulously tuned in my installer days), but I EMPHATICALLY REFUSE TO DIGITIZE MY BELOVED ANALOG SIGNAL SOURCE!!

I submit for your consideration (very Rod Serlingish, don’t you think) that some of the improvements you attribute to implementing additional crossovers are perhaps due more to the magical effect of loading the listening room with gobs of hyper-LF sound pressure that works in effect to "relieve the ROOM of the difficult lower-octave reproduction challenge". This of course assumes (and we know what happens when we do that) that the subject amplifiers and speakers are of sufficient quality to handle the task of accurately reproducing the lower octaves of our musical content (I admit to having an extreme aversion to most organ music so I may be exposed there) .

Dave

Dear @dlcockrum : As I told you, I like your system and know it. Btw, I owned  the ET tonearm and as I posted ( somewhere. ) here is a good one.

Now, even the Thiel 7s needs active subwoofers. Here you can read the main subject to add a pair of powered subwoofers in true stereo fashion where the main speakers will function as true satelite ones. You must try, that sole change transform for ever and for the better your really nice system:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/do-you-think-you-need-a-subwoofer/post?postid=310058#310058   


Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Hi Raul,

Thanks for the feedback. I am grateful for your helpfulness to me over the years on the MM thread. I still enjoy my Empire 4000D/III in my vintage system, as well as the other MMs I picked up, many of which were recommended by you.

You are correct, the statement you quoted from my earlier post is poorly stated. What I intended to say was that as my system improves, I feel that I can hear more of what the ET can ultimately do, and, perhaps my system has not yet caught up to the sound quality this arm can provide, i.e. it never seems to be the "weak link". Thanks for keeping me straight.

Thanks also for your thoughts on my component selection. Certainly not the visually-flashiest equipment around, but the older, often more-utilitarian looking, but time-proven SOTA pieces from Jim Thiel, Dave Reich, and Charles Hansen always make great sound for me.

Regarding the RELs, I have had them for several years and always set them at the lowest possible crossover point (A1) and at a very conservative volume. The big Thiels don’t need any bass enhancement, but loading the room with the REL’s LF sound pressure seems to improve imaging and openness in my system.

One thing I think is spectacular and unique to REL is the high-level input fed from the system’s amplifier(s) outputs that seems to make the REL mimic the sound of the upstream components, helping it integrate better than most. Wouldn’t mind the slam of the best JL Audio offerings though ;^)

Glad to see you here on the ET thread, Raul. If you don’t still have an ET Two in your stable, why don’t you pick one up so you can join our journey to ET perfection, perhaps sorting through a few of your cartridges to clue us in on the great ones. ET Two’s would suddenly start selling for 3X+ their current price if you become infatuated with it... ;^)

Dave

Hi Dave

your ET2 set up looks textbook good :^) , with the obvious wiring, air tube connect mods over stock to improve on the original design, which tried to satisfy the tonearm being mounted on practically any turntable - other than a very lightly sprung one. All it needs is one drilled hole for the spiked mounting plate.

As we know and discussed here there are many TNT setups with ET2 arms. The TNT was originally designed for the ET2. There was a business collaboration between Harry and Bruce. Harry then I assume, (he can tell us otherwise if he likes) made up his own tonearm and they said goodbye to each other.

The many TNT and HW 19 VPI/ET2 setups are a reminder of this past relationship and can not be ignored. Even with Harry's marketing sense.
Kind of like that past girlfriend you still hold pictures of, and were afraid to introduce to your mother ? ....

Your attention to detail is great (I imagine for the whole room) and I really like the thread on the TNT. That thread setup on my previous TNT moved the TNT into the same league for pace and tempo with my other tables at the time. But it trumped them in musicality. Trumped them.....hah hah to my American friends. :^)

In fact my modded TNT at the time is what convinced me to eventually acquire the string drive designed turntable.

Nice pics (its unfortunate we can't link pics direct from our virtual system into threads anymore.  An excellent shot of how to properly set the weights on the I beam - where many (including the professional reviewers) go wrong IMO because they do not take time to figure out how the arm works. I am referring of course to reading the ET2 manual, or ask Bruce, or ask us here. :^)

in a nutshell **** FWFO**** fewest weights furthest out. I just made up that acronym. This FWFO gives you the highest vertical inertia (aka the BEST BASS) and is discussed in the ET2 manual. This is also "one" of the reasons the super light 420str has such outstanding bass on an ET2. Like the bass players in the group sound after drinking cappuccino.

There is of course the famous Audiogon "German" group who set their ET2's up with the most weight possible in, closest to the air bearing spindle. Long time ET2 owners know what this does to the setup. We can discuss if anyone likes. One from this German group actually makes his own tonearm now.

Cheers 

Dear @dlcockrum : """  or, most recently, improvements in my system that show I have not yet heard the full sonic capability of this arm.... """

I don't know which kind of system improvements you made it but what you experienced can't be attribute for that system audio link name it tonearm. What about the Orpheus that's a great performer that with system improvements always shows it at best conditions.

When we make system improvements and we can listen a better system quality performance that speaks, before any other audio system link, a lot about the quality of the source ( cartridge. ) and speakers and from here we can " figure/imagine " how all the other system links conttribute to it.

Btw, I know very well your speakers, as a fact I like it Thiel, your Classé units and the Krell. I owned the DR-7 and DR 3-VHC and had in my place the Thiel 7 and that Krell too.

I don't know if you already made the REL subs set up for it can works only from 80hz down its capacity low bass frequency where in this set up the Thiel's be running as " satelite " ones.

Anyway, I made my points.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Hi Chris,

You are and always have been the perfect patron/owner of this thread. Totally agree with the points you made re: the overwhelming enthusiasm perpetually demonstrated in this thread and the resulting post count. Who wooda thunk it? Outstanding job, buddy!

The point I attempted to articulate the other day was that I easily recall three, four, and sometimes many more helpful, enthusiastic, and occasionally argumentative responses from the ET Two-faithful to a newcomer’s inquiry. It struck me in reading your multiple but lone responses to tequila that we may have hit an engagement lull by our old buddies and friends, myself included.

Tequila’s inquiries define the opportunity for us all to share our love for and experiences with this superlative tonearm. Let me lead by example in belatedly offering tequila (and others) any and all help and support that I can, being a long-time owner/lover of a VPI TNT/ET Two rig. This is a great combo IMHO and benefits tremendously from a few simple and inexpensive tweaks that I learned from you and frogman (and others). I tried to dutifully describe my mods in the "My System" section for this purpose:

https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/3778

Be sure to click on the easy-to-overlook "Toggle details" button to read my comments. I still humbly acknowledge being on the perpetual learning curve with my analog setup (and my system in general).

Best to you as always Chris,
Dave

Hi Dave

Sounds like you are really enjoying your setup and music. You know it got me thinking. Some people seeing this thread in the Audiogon Analog list for the first time may be wondering ...... how the hell does an Audiogon thread about a tonearm of all things, reach 1,238,000 views on 1500 posts ?

I think this is because.

1) The thread contains good information on the ET2 tonearm from actual owners supported with information that has been got from Bruce Thigpen directly. It dispenses with the many audiophile myths on the tonearm, some from professionals in the business - shame on them :^) ....  and with air bearing tonearms in general.

2) There is also good information for audiophiles/music lovers in general.

3) There are good stories. :^)

But I think you said it best and it mirrors my experiences.

I have not yet heard the full sonic capability of this arm despite many years of audio partnership.

As the weather starts turning colder vinyl will be helping me to keep warm. Turntables have come and gone as have cartridges. My ET 2.5 has remained and will continue to do so.

My only issue right now is I want a second newer Timeter Arydyne air pump but ...their prices have skyrocketed - is it any coincidence with this thread ?

and the dollar exchange as they are all coming from the US is just terrible for Canadians. Can’t justify it.

I am reminded of my first email to Mr. Verdier who made my turntable and his email response back to me some years ago.

Dear Sir,
Thank you for your message.
A gap of 1cm is absolutely normal.
Can you tell me more about your curious tone arm?
Please accept my best regards.
J.C.VERDIER

Many North American audio products are not well known in Europe.

:^)

Cheers Chris

Fellow ET Two lovers,

What has happened to us? Nothing new to say about this fantastic tonearm? I continue to hear new and amazing sonic revelations with every tweak or, most recently, improvements in my system that show I have not yet heard the full sonic capability of this arm despite many years of audio partnership.

I hate to see this thread fall into oblivion.  Miss the "good ole days" of gushing enthusiasm and assaultive debate. Wish I knew how to revive it.  Could use some help from the "Founding Fathers"...

Dave

Hi tequila,

I am using one Medo 910 pump (very loud) and built a silencer box similar to what you describe, except that I used two computer fans ported to/from the outside of the box to cool the pump chamber and built foam labyrinths on either end of the box to pass the forced air in and out to the pump chamber while deadening noise.  It is not dead quiet but barely audible when placed in a closet just outside my listening room. The pump still gets hot even with the added forced induction, but stays much cooler than in a sealed box. Hope this is helpful.

Dave

I finally got 2 Medo 0110 pumps to try. Both of them give me about 5psi at the arm. One of the is quieter.

My plan is to build a box for it using MDF and lined with foam. For now this is going to be a closed box with no fan, so it could create some heat issue. But I worry that if I cut out some vents for the cooling (plus adding a PC Fan), the noise would be a bit too much as I need to place it in the living room where I also have the stereo.

Will give it a try coming weeks.

And also, I found that actually I bought another used ET2 (without TT) years ago and it was sitting with my LPs, which I forgot, and now I have one running and a spare ET2 too :)

what's better than an ET2 ? 

Two - ET2's  

:^) 

One for stereo and one for mono.

Happy Listening .....  

And also, I found that actually I bought another used ET2 (without TT) years ago and it was sitting with my LPs, which I forgot, and now I have one running and a spare ET2 too :)

Hi ct0517,

Thanks for your help! Actually I located in China rather than Mexico although my web name may have given you the wrong impression. :P

I have tried 3 pumps so far
1. Medo VP0140 200V (Directly to the 220V supply) which came with the Turntable and Arm.
2. Medo VP0140 24V (Wired through a 30W 220V-24V transformer)
3. Medo AC0210 115V (Wire through a 50W 220V-110V transformer)

So far I hook it up like Pump->2 Filters-> (Gauge) ->Arm

1. gave me about 2.5PSI at the arm, I ran it for an hour without problem. But 2. and 3. gave me basically no pressure, I have no idea why but they do seem to work perfectly and pump out air. There are a lot of 2nd hand Medo pumps that I can buy here (about 20 to 30USD each), so I just ordered two Medo 0110 (which spec to 14psi) to try, and the shop promise me that they are tested and work well. So I will try and see the results in a few days.

Due to personal reasons (young kids, job, moving locations), I have been away from the audiophile hobby for 7 years and now I am back (I still have close to a thousand records in my closet). Although I have not tuned my system yet but I am happy with the result and I can finally sit down and listen to some music.

Cheers

regarding the 30 min operation warning on the Medo. 

The pump has heat sinks much like a Solid State Class A/B amp.  It does get hot quickly. A small computer fan placed next to it alleviates this limitation. It can be run for hours and never gets hot.

Thanks very much for your reply!

Hi Tequila

been up north trying to find HD Satellite 82 through a mess of woods.
talk about frustrating. nothing in Audio so far matches this type of frustration when you don’t have a clear line of sight., and mosquitoes biting at you.

re: VP0140 pump

I still have a couple of those stored away.

For a simple pump the order would be .

Pump =====> surge tank =======> regulator / filter ======== ET 2.0, ET 2.5

This ensures the PSI and Filtering is maintained closest to the tonearm.
If you have gone through this thread you know we are all running different pump systems. For this reason and others when buying a new ET 2.5; it comes with no pump but Bruce will help you acquire one.

Pumps that have adjustable PSI will also have their own internal regulator. So it is possible to have a couple regulators on the line - start and end. A long air line of say 50- 100 feet coiled up also acts like a surge tank and smooths out the air pulses.

Tequila, your moniker brings up Mexico. Anyone buying a used ET2 from Mexico should give the capillaries a thorough cleaning due to air quality. Sonics are greatly affected by quality of the air. if they (capillaries) are partially blocked you will need to run a higher PSI to make it work. This is a band aid and the sonics will suffer. Any used ET2 purchase should be cleaned out.

The quality of the air going into the arm is most important and affects the sonics greatly in two ways.

1) Clean dry air keeps moisture carrying particulates from clogging up the pores of the capillaries.
2) Stable pulse free air ensures great sonics - you will know when you hear this. Music flows like from a water pipe - a relaxed presentation.

fwiw
I used to have a VPI mkIV with my first ET 2.0 many years ago. The springs can be a PITA as they have a tendency to go out of level easy. Replacing the springs with pucks helped, but then you need to introduce different turntable footers.

My 2 cents. hopefully others can offer their opinion. Welcome to the thread and AudioGon.

Hi there,

I recently acquiref a used VPI TNT MK3 with ET2 arm. It came with Medo VP0140 pump, two filters and an Airtech surge tank.

Since the VP0140 pump is rated for 30mins operation. I planned to get a used Medo 0201 pump and fit a pressure regulator as well. Then I will place the 0201 in an enclosure.

My question is the sequence of hooking these up.

1) Pump->Filter->Regulator->Surge Tank->Arm
Or
2) Pump->Filter->Surge Tank->Regulator->Arm

Which one is correct?

Thanks
Tequila

The price will be $225, incl. shipping.

How is Bruce able to makes these Joints, aka the "Gooseneck" for this price?  Machine shop rates are $150 an hour.
We ran into much higher estimate costs to do a run of Goosenecks as discussed on this thread a while back. So the aluminum Mounting Base and Joint/Gooseneck are about the same price.
Is the Gooseneck not more of challenge (labor & material wise) to make ?