Hi Dave. why would using a test instrument (say a Fozgometer or an oscilloscope) that reads each channel’s signal output independently and also the output signal balance between both channels give an improper result? Sorry for any confusion. It is my understanding that "some" good carts yielding very high levels of separation, are not necessarily Symetric. They are Asymetric. If you try to use an electrical device in this type of scenario to balance the channels, you will not set up the cart as it was intended to be setup from the factory. It will be an "improper result". I got this information years ago in talking with Peter at Soundsmith who has retipped for me in the past (two - carts I had bought used), and one of my own - that I beheaded. *^( ***************** Now Mike just happens to be using a Soundsmith cart and a Lyra Delos. Mostly I’ve been swapping between two full arm looms (cartridge, arm wand, wiring), one with a Lyra Delos and one with a Soundsmith Zephyr MIMC. Assuming two full ET2 arm looms implies to me that Mike is pulling the Gooseneck bolt.... to exchange armtubes ...thus leaving Azimuth settings intact for each cartridge. Mike pls correct me if I am wrong. Now what if....... the Lyra has balanced channel db levels (by design) ........and the Soundsmith Cart....... not (by design) They would need different azimuth settings. I am not saying that Mike’s Soundsmith cart is one of these Asymetric Carts but what if......... I set the cart visually level, then fine tweak Azimuth by ear, match it up with Digital. If one chooses at this point, test out the channel separation with an electrical device. If there is an imbalance, contact the Cart manufacturer and ask if this ok. That’s what I would do. ********************* This got me curious so I did some digging. Here is a video from Peter at Soundsmith. Watch at the 3:30 mark. Azimuth ************************ And to throw another can of worms out there. SRA is a moving target and it depends on your records and the plant they were made at. European standards differ from American plants. Angles differ by plant. Every time they put on a new cutting stylus (every 10 hours ?) it is never put in the same way as before. Think about it. |
Hi Chris,
Merry Christmas my friend!
I am a bit confused by the last statement above. If the cartridge’s generator is misaligned, I can easily see why listening will give a better result than setting azimuth using visual alignment tools, mirrors, etc. that use the cantilever orientation (or even worse the cartridge body) to try to roughly approximate true azimuth alignment. But, given the same misaligned generator scenario, why would using a test instrument (say a Fozgometer or an oscilloscope) that reads each channel’s signal output independently and also the output signal balance between both channels give an improper result?
Best to you Chris,
Dave
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When setting up Azimuth
If I am using a tube amp/s, make sure its channel output is even. Then I set up digital first and with the speakers in near field (takes the room anomalies out) . If your main speakers can't be moved use a temporary smaller pair of speakers. Then go to the vinyl with the same material. Match it up as best as possible by ear.
I don't like the idea of using test instruments for Azimuth because, if the generator is not aligned with the stylus, you will be chasing your tail forever. Its an unknown. We can't tell if the Cart generator is lined up properly.
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Actually, when I said I dread setting VTA and SRA, I meant to say SRA and Azimuth.
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Hi Chris. Thanks for the feedback. I've found that the string tension needs to be pretty loose for best performance. As for the arm situation - I did in fact have the Delos mounted in the Carbon arm for a good while and was getting good results. Then I went and switched speakers and cartridges and started fiddling with other parameters and the magic disappeared. I may be switching the Delos back to the Carbon arm, I just dread setting SRA and VTA again, as just last night things were starting to sound pretty decent again.
I've done a good bit of switching around of cartridges lately, and both the Delos and the Soundsmith have good stylus protectors. I'm not saying it's easy or foolproof, but at least it's not a scary proposition. A great opportunity to engage in mindfulness.
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Hi Mike re: your carts my two cents. I’ve set up two complete armwand / wire looms. One for the Zephyr and one for the Delos using the carbon fiber and aluminum wands respectively Your carts from the specs appear to both be line contact designs. The Zephr at 10 μm/mN compliance the Delos at 12 x 10-6cm/dyne at 100Hz. Similar compliances. I would be running both of them on the Carbon Fiber or Mag armtubes not the Aluminum armtube - at least not without modding it. I see you have added wrap in your virtual system picture. I feel if you move the Delos to the CF it will return more information to you. Be interesting to find out. But I don’t like to recommend activities that involved switching out carts, due to the risks involved in beheading them. 8^0 ************************ Some perspective on the thread application. Re: your modded TNT Getting the tension right is a PITA, as I have to move the entire turntable to change it. If I applied the thread tension that I use on my string drive turntable, to my former modded thread drive TNT, the TNT platter would barely move. It is applied loose - so loose that you can flick the thread as the record plays and not interrupt it. The string drive turntable’s pulley, and platter / bearing inertia design keep it going. The VPI’s platter/bearing and motor pulleys being designed for belt, take some time to get it right as you say, with thread. But once dialed in I found a profound performance increase. Like the musicians were playing based on receiving some good news earlier in the day. The speed controller needed to be set much higher, but the resulting shorter and tighter bass notes improve pace and tempo and put the TNT on a par with my other tables at the time. I once tried a thread slingshot approach with the motor a few feet away. That was interesting - like kicking in a turbo. But the thread could not take the strain. My findings Adding belts to a string drive design is easy to do, but it degrades performance. Adding string/thread to a belt drive design, is not as easy to do, but it improves performance. |
Hi Chris. I realized I never responded to your question about using silk thread in lieu of the rubber belt. For one, the noise floor is lower. Speed stability I'm not sure of, but it's definitely as good as with the standard belt. Getting the tension right is a PITA, as I have to move the entire turntable to change it. FWIW, I'm using silk bead thread #2, and have had the same belt for a year now. I snapped a few early on adjusting tension, but this latest one is still working just fine.
I know we sometimes deviate from the main topic, and I'd like to do so. For the last two weeks I've been auditioning an Almarro A318B integrated amp and Vaugh Plasma Signature speakers. Mostly I've been swapping between two full arm looms (cartridge, arm wand, wiring), one with a Lyra Delos and one with a Soundsmith Zephyr MIMC. My findings are that the Delos has more body but doesn't dig out the details like the Soundsmith. The Delos seems more sensitive to SRA and tracking force, while the Zephyr's ability to extract all that detail is very much tied to getting Azimuth just right. I'm going to work on it again today, but just wanted to pass on these observations. If someone has had a different experience, or any insights, I'm all ears. |
Hi Chris I also have a moister collecting bulbs but I've never seen a drop in them. My JUN-AIR compressor is about 25 feet away and has a moisture collecting feature that must work pretty well.
Link to image below.
My spindle moves very easily under pressure, and stiffly with no pressure. The buffing on the manifold looks like someone has taken a dremel tool to the surface. I don't think it's from my air supply, but I'm just going to have to let Bruce tell me what's going on. I will try to post a picture of it before I send it off. http://www.jun-air.com/product_images/6-25.jpg |
Mike
that manifold picture was sent to me by my audio friend down in Southern California. He had bought the ET2 used (not sure where it was sourced from), but it’s a good sample of what can happen when one runs the tonearm in a humid dirty climate without proper filters / moisture control. The good thing is this is not like rust on a car, and it is easily cleaned up; if one is a Type A personality :^)
My Timeter Air pump heats up the air, then with coils, condenses the air, and drains the moisture into a pan inside the pump box, like a car’s AC system. It sends clean desert like air down the line. Have never seen any liquid buildup in the bulb next to the table (except for the time the pumps drain tube became plugged - a story in itself). I have had no reason to pull out the manifold to look at it, so not sure if the screws have been buffed like yours.
What I can tell you is being set up for 19 PSI, it is very difficult to push the spindle through manifold (tight) without the air on. With the air on it is the smoothest bearing.
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Thanks for the picture of the manifold Chris. Mine looks nothing like that. Every screw hole has been, for lack of a better word, buffed. The edges around the holes have been sanded to where the edge of the screw is merged with the manifold. Not sure why it's that way, but I'm sure Bruce will make it right.
For now, I've set up two complete armwand / wire looms. One for the Zephyr and one for the Delos using the carbon fiber and aluminum wands respectively. My hope is that I can get them both properly calibrated and then be able to swap them out and not have to do a lot of re-alignment beyond SRA/ VTA and tracking weight. It's not in my virtual system photos, but I do have one of those run-out gauges you can attach to the top of the tonearm manifold housing that allows you to see exactly what the current tonearm height is. |
We're getting 6 inches of snow in Greensboro right now, so this is prime listening time
Has the makings for an Audiophile / Music Lover perfect storm. 8^0 For the benefit of the readers these are the set screws that Mike and myself are talking about. Click on blue text ET2 Manifold and Set Screws The Picture is courtesy of a good audio friend. Have not heard from him in a really long time. If he sees this - Hope all is well ! *************** A shout out for Mike's radio show info. World Peace Party on WQFS Guilford College radio, 2-4 PM EST every Monday WQFSClick on the "tune in" button *************** Frogman - those Oak leaves are still falling, appear about 40% fallen, and when falling they seem to be attracted to our two storey eavestrough :^( Sometimes I wonder what music Bruce listened/listens to when he sets up a customer tonearm. Have never asked him. |
Hi Chris. I too have a custom 2.5 manifold, set for 12 PSI. I'm sure the fix is to adjust the screws on the manifold to adjust airflow, but there are two issues. First, I'm not sure exactly which screws should be adjusted, and second, for the most part, I can't get an allen wrench into most of the screws. The female allen ends are not uniform, they've been buffed down in several places and an allen wrench just can't get purchase. I've had the manifold out and was only able to turn one screw. I should have taken a picture. Right now, with a dead level table and 12 PSI, the arm has a very pronounced bias inward (was outward until I flipped it). I'm dealing with it in the short term by finding a setting that does work, about 5 PSI right now.
We're getting 6 inches of snow in Greensboro right now, so this is prime listening time, so it will be a while before I send the parts in to Bruce, and there's no way I'm going to try to get it right myself. That being said, I ain't hating what I'm hearing right now. I know it could be better and not just because of the pressure imbalance. I recently purchased a Soundsmith Zephyr MIMC and was using that for the last 10 days or so. It has a master tape quality, no doubt. Resolution, when setup is dead on, is jaw dropping, but in spite of that, I've gone back to my old reliable Delos for now. On my rig, the Delos is not quite as resolving, but is noticeably warmer. Add to the mix that two weeks ago I took delivery on a prototype pair of Vaughn Plasma Signature speakers and I'm still familiarizing myself with them. The Delos is sounding pretty sweet through them, even though the speakers are currently being driven by a Marantz SMS-11 power amp. Not ideal, as the speakers are 96db efficient and were designed for low power SET/ Class A amps. At RMAF they were paired with the top of the line Wavelength amps, and it was something to behold. Sold me :) Jim Jordan of Vaughn has shipped me an Almarro A318b tube integrated amp, and when it comes in next week I'll put the Zephyr back in and see if I can get both resolution and warmth with that combination. Someone said an audio system is like baking a cake. Well I've switched up a lot of ingredients, but I hope I'm homing in on a blue ribbon recipe.
Prior speakers were Audio Artistry Vivaldis FWIW. They got along famously with the Marantz amp, but in that case there is a very sophisticated passive crossover between the amp and the drivers. The designer, Sigfried Linkwitz, is on record as saying his speakers are not overly amplifier sensitive.
While I'm here, a couple more things. First off, we all know Bruce is great to deal with. I'd like to add to that list Keith Herron of Herron audio and Jim Jordan of Vaughn speakers. They're both in the same class. On last thing. I do a radio show that you can get off the 'net. It's the World Peace Party on WQFS Guilford College radio, 2-4 PM EST every Monday. Mostly indie rock and singer-songwriter, and all through 2017 I've featured a tribute to the 50th anniversary of the year 1967 around the 3:00 mark. Hendrix, Love, Moby Grape, The Byrds, 13th Floor Elevators, Cream.... If you're interested, do a search for WQFS and the tunein link should pop up. Content is MP3's and WAV files, mostly played through a laptop with Dragonfly Red DAC, so it's not exactly audiophile material. |
I’m going to be sending my manifold, spindle and manifold housing back to Bruce soon. There is an air flow imbalance that causes the spindle to push in one direction as I increase pressure. It was pushing out. I flipped the manifold and sure enough it started pushing in as I increased pressure. Mike. This is interesting. My understanding is that the stock 2.0 smaller lighter spindle needs about 3 psi to levitate. The larger heavier lower resonance stock 2.5 spindle, designed for MC carts, needs in the neighborhood of 5-6 psi to do the same thing. This is for Bruce’ stock builds. Then we get into the custom builds that Bruce has done for clients, like myself. He set my 2.5 up for 19 PSI. In discussions with him at the time it was my understanding that this is the PSI limit for the design. So based on the above, why are you choosing to increase the PSI ? and does the spindle stays balanced, when it is run at the PSI that Bruce set the manifold up for at his shop ? Just thinking out loud over coffee this morning. If I were located far from Bruce in Florida, and the (spindle, manifold) were going to be sent to him for maintenance anyway; I would first be tempted to try rebalancing the manifold on my own. As you are using direct shot wiring set it up without the wiring and just the spindle on (Look Mom, no wires ! - hah hah ) So with just the spindle on, turn on the air at the factory set PSI. Do observations. Now bump up the pressure and observe again. Slide out the manifold itself, and adjust the screws on the one side a bit, on the side it it pushes towards. Open them up a bit equally. What happens ? If it gets worse turn them in again and go to the other side and repeat. Again, just something to try, before it goes back to Bruce. *********************** lots of turntable tweaks in your Audiogon page. I really like the way you have set up the thread/floss on your turntable. Interested in the differences you heard compared to the belt setup. |
BTW it's Mike Kiser. Just jumping in to say that I've posted some turntable and tonearm pictures in my virtual forum. Amp and speakers are in a state of flux, so for now it's just turntable pictures. As long as I'm here I just want to thank you guys for your insights over all the years. I haven't solicited much advice directly but have followed a lot of the threads with interest. Probably the thing I've learned most from this forum is the importance of balance, and the wonderful? world of I beams and leaf springs. FWIW, I'm going to be sending my manifold, spindle and manifold housing back to Bruce soon. There is an air flow imbalance that causes the spindle to push in one direction as I increase pressure. It was pushing out. I flipped the manifold and sure enough it started pushing in as I increased pressure. I contacted Bruce and he told me to send it in for balancing. I'm not sure I've seen anyone else mention this issue, so just wanted to put it out there. |
Thanks for the responses. I'm going to revisit my setup yet again this evening and get back. It's a lot to take in. At some point I'll update my virtual system with more recent pics of my turntable. I've made a few tweaks that I haven't seen mentioned in this forum. |
Hi Mkieser! I assume you checked this, but in case not...
It's quite easy to upset the lateral balance of the arm while changing cartridges or arm wands. Did you carefully check levelness?I had issues with levelness even when using the VTA adjustment. So my recommandation is to always recheck for levelness after changing the VTA, or touching the VTA adjustment. And I think changing a cartridge or arm wand would apply for the same.
Horizontal off-levelness skews the tonality of the cartridge and deteriorates bass quality to a surprising the degree.
Another variable for somebody with a good aural memory is the tightness of all used screws and connections.IME lowest possible torque sounds best. I use only as much as to prevent slipping of the connections or the cartridge.
Your opinion might vary, but at least play and check these things. |
Hi Mkiser - (Mark) ? long time since hearing from you. ;^) Pic 35 on my my virtual system shows how to set the gap with the tonearm not mounted.. You can see on the feeler gauge in the pic, that I have it set quite firm. I also do not find a need to use the VTA much. I aim to keep the manifold inscribed line even with the record. Here are some comments from Bruce that should help. I had to dig into email archives from 2014. Chris,
The gap is suggested so that the bearing blocks are parallel to the manifold housing, the gap value is arbitrary. I would not force a bearing block too close to the manifold housing such that the friction to adjust VTA is high, doing so would damage the arc block. The bearing block screw length is the same on all tonearms, 4-40 x 3/4 for the bottom pair and 4 x 40 x 5/8 for the top pair.
We no longer sell VTA arc blocks as an individual part. I hope this helps.
brucet
Chris,
My first rule would be to use the short end of the Allen wrench as the lever for torquing any screws on the ET-2. The short lever arm will limit the applied torque.
For the two bearing blocks that mesh the pinion to the rack in the arc block we first adjust the blocks so that they are parallel to the manifold housing with a .060 -.090 gap between the bearing block and the back adjacent surfaces on the manifold housing.
The friction between the manifold housing and the arc block define the feel of the VTA mechanism lever action. We want this to offer some resistance, but not too much when a VTA adjustment is attempted. Turn the 4/40 x 3/4 bearing block screws so that some friction is encountered when adjusting VTA but not so much that the VTA mechanism locks up. We would not attempt this adjustment with the tonearm installed on a turntable.
The main failures we see with the arc blocks are:
1.The threaded insert on back surface of the arc block is cracked due to over torquing of 8-32 stainless steel button head post mounting screw.
2.The bearing blocks on either side of the arc block which support the pinion gear are over torqued which crushes the pinion into the rack and binds the mechanism, if a VTA change is attempted with over torqued bearing blocks the pinion turns and the rack does not move, stripping the teeth on the rack.
- brucet
***************************************** ***************************************** Mkiser
I've had this setup sounding really good, and for a while the new Zephyr was spot on, more like listening to a master tape than an LP. Re: Master tapes reference. I still own a Studer and some 15 IPS master tape dubs. When I first brought it home many years ago it was a great reference for me and it still is. Over time, and tweaking, I have my main vinyl rig competing and out performing some of the tapes in my room. The good ones (tape) are just really good, and I also don't have LPs for some of the tapes. Cheers Chris |
Hi everyone. I've owned and ET II for about 28 years and have had my ups and downs. I've posted in this forum but it's been years. A quick background. I'm in Greensboro NC, running the ET 2.5 on a modified VPI TNT Jr on a custom critical mass base with custom brass feet. Direct wired. Carbon fiber arm. Jenna air pump in another room. Long I beam, currently double sprung, also have a long single sprung one. Silicon damping. I've recently switched out a Lyra Delos for a Soundsmith Zephyr MIMC. I've had this setup sounding really good, and for a while the new Zephyr was spot on, more like listening to a master tape than an LP. That being said, I switched out the Zephyr to re-assess the Delos and never got the Delos dialed in, and upon re-inserting the Zephyr I can't seem to get back to the sound I had previous. For now I'm really just looking for information on one setup issue - Chris' information on using a feeler guage to set the 4 screws on the manifold. I looked at his virtual system page and couldn't find the specifics. Chris, if you read this, could you point me in the right direction? PS,
I saw a post from a few years ago from vpi about getting the manifold level right. In may case Harry sent me a spacer that went under the armboard FWIW.
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Put on the new long beam, and lose half the weight.
I wish real life was this easy. I run an hour a day and can barely stay at my weight.
Those evening liquid calories.... take a serious toll.
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@ct0517
I loved the analogy too.
@frogman
Congrats on the long I-beams. Let us know what you hear with them.
The VDH Black Beauty SPX is not quite broken in yet but I'm becoming a huge VDH fan. Right out of the box it had a luscious midrange without the lost detail I experienced with the MC-1. The Black Beauty SPX is a large upgrade from the MC-1 Special.
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Great analogy!
Ordered two long I-beams yesterday; single and double spring versions. What a nice man Bruce T is! You may recall from early in the thread my description of my diy balsa wood version of a long I-beam. Worked well, but always had trouble with reliably securing the leaf springs to it. Will keep you all posted. |
Frogman - yes, the collect phase is a kind of mechanical collection from the mower bag to curbside paper leaf bag, for town collection and composting.
The birch and maple leaves get mulched into my soil. No problem and feels good to be dropping them into it. But the late fallers....the Oak leaves ......take all winter to fall and are a real problem as they don’t seem to break down. A PITA. Mulching them is like trying to mulch Styrofoam.
*******************
So when that auction I linked was in play - I got this email from someone asking about it and whether he should consider it. He was not a current or past owner of the ET2 tonearm. I told this person.
"Whether you should get the ET2 depends on your personality type. Let me use an analogy to explain.
Think back to the days when we used to drive our automobiles before GPS and Google Maps. So you are out on the road in an unknown area - a little lost - what do you do ?
Personality type A
would - open the glove box and pull out a hardcopy map; or stop and ask for directions.
Personality type B -
would - just prod onward blindly hoping they will reach their destination.
Type B should not own this tonearm IMO. "
8^0
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**** It’s started raining here and I am collecting leaves.
Don’t want to do this anymore :^( ****
Mulch, mulch, mulch, Chris! Good for the lawn, too. Used to collect a couple of acres' worth of leaves off of our lawn at our upstate property. The locals used to think (and would tell me) that I was out of my mind. Mulching kit for my Husqvarna tractor to the rescue. OMG, what was I thinking!
vpi, congrats on your new VDH. Love VDH cartridges. |
21 bids , 11 bidders !
Coming down to the wire.
Will there be a dark horse bidder ? .
ooooooh.....It's started raining here and I am collecting leaves.
Don't want to do this anymore :^(
What fun ebay bidding can be when it's not you.... yourself.... bidding - 8^0
anyone here involved ? heh heh heh
I know what a base ET 2.0 original tonearm is worth - let's see what happens.
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Harry
A version 2 Long I Beam is now on its way north of the 49th parallel.
thanks for letting me know. Chris |
Brad -You are taking imo ...the right approach with this taking the setup in steps. Maybe its the project manager in me talking, but I think there is just too much to take in here (the way Bruce thinks) Steps are needed in the learning. There is also imo too much to un-learn if someone is coming from many years with a pivot arm. I honestly feel that someone with no pivot tonearm experience might have a better shot with this tonearm. The I Beam system with leaf spring and weights brings a fourth dimension that we have discussed here. Never seen a professional view discussed in a paper or online anywhere that demonstrated a good understanding of it outside of the manual. Except here ...... but we are all just a bunch of music lovers. 8^) The people (Audiophiles) I know from say 15 years ago - a few people who tried the ET2 were coming from years with a pivot arm and just could not seem to get around the idea of removing weight on the I beam and sliding the weight further back to get VTF; since on a pivot arm one normally just slides the back weight forward for more VTF and backward to get less VTF. Here you remove/add weights to get to the highest number on the I Beam- that's the objective. It's a different game. If one wants to set it up as designed. You can put on heavier or lighter cartridge bolts to achieve this as well. One other person I remember and this is definitely going back 15 years; had a 6 figure system and was selling the VPI MKIV with the ET2 on it that he had just bought recently. He also owned Dunlavy towers, an Allnic preamp, Nakamichi TT that adjusted for the record, and the Dynavector tonearm. This ET2/VPI setup he was selling became my first ET2. He could not figure out why it wouldn't work past the first track on an LP. The problem ended up being the pump - low on PSI. I ended up replacing it with the Medo with a computer fan next to it to cool it. The funny thing is I wrote at the time to A Salvatore about this and he ended up putting my verbage in his blog. Look forward to hearing about your progress. ******************************************** Hi Harry - "When you get snowbound you gotta get Bruce's second run long "plank". It is not possible Harry, to snow bound a true Canadian. The temperature however is another thing on its own. My bones alert me 24 hours prior to cold coming. The good thing with cold and this crazy hobby - my room heating system (Music Reference Tubes and or a Krell Class A Amp) produces dry dry air. Just what the ET2 likes. Cheers Chris |
Xbart - Brad - welcome to the thread.
Amazing what can be found at a US of A Garage Sale ...... EH
Real American Pickers.
Have you messed with the horizontal VTA Pillar bolts yet ?
It
is my opinion that these should have come from Bruce' factory with
plugs in place preventing adjustment....AND....a special section in the
manual dedicated to them with the caption "for experienced users only"
Chris, I'm been pretty much a vintage audio guy, mostly out of necessity (lack of funds) and garage sales are my main source for gear and albums. Most of the mods suggested here are likely not in my budget. I'm sure getting this rig set up right will be a great setup, even without the mods discussed here. To answer your question, no I haven't messed with the pillar bots. I have had the turntable up and running for a week now. As it is now, it is a major improvement over my previous table. I'm curious to hear how It will sound when it is set up properly. -Brad |
Welcome back, Chris. When you get snowbound you gotta get Bruce's second run long "plank".
Frogman,
Enjoyed my short sojourn with the the VDH MC-1 Special but missed the Lyra delicacy and extension I've lived with for so many years. I did, however, decide to give VDH one more try and acquired a Black Beauty SPX. I'm absolutely blown away by this cartridge. Great midrange and bass of the VDH but extension and air that gives my Lyra Delos a run for its money. I'm using the aluminum arm wand Bruce recommended for this high compliance cartridge.
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Hi Chris,
Welcome home! It is nice to hear from you again.
Dave |
Hi Guys
Been enjoying July Weather in Sept/Oct; which is ok since we never got July weather in July here this year. :^(
So still in outdoor mode floating on the water (not the air) and maybe a track session again one day if the Gestapo ever hands back the keys to me again :^(
Something about not being able to collect on Life insurance ?
Anyway - some interesting talk on achieving alignment. Got me re-juved reading.
Noted the suggestions for moving the ends of the spindle (Joint - aka as Gooseneck) and/or the end cap to get the stylus to drop into the lead in groove.
The larger newer 2.5 is built tighter and the ends of the spindle have sleeves which make the gooseneck and end cap flush with the spindle. There is only one way to mount it - tight. So if the hole that was drilled to mount the tonearm was less than perfect and you are faced with an armtube that doesn't come in to the lead in groove - the Cueing Eccentric adjustment would be probably the only way unless you are going to drill another mounting hole.
btw - Bruce used to provide the service of upgrading your 2.0 to a 2.5. You send him your 2.0 spindle and manifold and he would return a bored out 2.5 version at reasonable cost. He may still do this.
Re: Alignment
If you are using a full plinth with no armboard, and it is going to need one hole drilled to add the tonearm; the task at hand can get more than a little daunting. Especially if you are dealing with an expensive handcrafted plinth.
After mounting the ET 2.0 , 2.5 maybe 60-70 times on 5 or 6 tables...During a Serious bout of Audiophilia Nervosa Mode years ago ....... 8^(.....I can say let's not over complicate this. We are not after all trying to mount a pivot arm.
All you need is a straight line from the middle of the spindle to the end of the platter (ANYWHERE ON THE PLATTER) This straight line should track the line (path) your stylus will take. With the air pump on make adjustment making sure your stylus will land - without it actually touching - the line on the jig. This is easiest done when your ET 2.0 - 2.5 is mounted on a standalone or pivoting pillar/pod.
Past VPI HW19 MKIV and TNT tables with the ET2 revealed to me that the holes drilled by VPI were less than perfect. Maybe it was hit and miss with my examples ? Test your tables. Does your stylus when placed on the jig near the beginning still remain on that straight line at the end of the road ?
********************************************
Xbart - Brad - welcome to the thread.
Amazing what can be found at a US of A Garage Sale ...... EH
Real American Pickers.
Have you messed with the horizontal VTA Pillar bolts yet ?
It is my opinion that these should have come from Bruce' factory with plugs in place preventing adjustment....AND....a special section in the manual dedicated to them with the caption "for experienced users only"
I am pretty sure everyone here has used those VTA Pillar bolts in the beginning of learning setup to make the stylus "Walk The Line" - thereby messing up the ET2 VTA alignment. The only manual mention I recall is adjusting them for the tension felt in the VTA lever. This is an over sight IMO as Audiophiles will always tinker and can't leave well enough alone.
The mention of plugs for the VTA pillar post bolts...... reminds me of an incident this past summer involving a friends boat with a Volvo Penta i/o engine, with Holley carb. The friend had a rough running engine on this boat he bought. When we investigated we noticed someone had taken the plugs out the carbs' two metering bolts on each side, and tried to adjust them. We suspected something got messed up in their settings.
Long story short - Holleys are way too sensitive to do adjustment of the metering bolts by ear and watching the tachometer. To do it properly required the use of a Vacuum Gauge, sort of like the air pressure gauge used by the ET2. The vacuum gauge showed that the setting were way off.
Hope this post finds everyone well. Soon it will be cold and activities will commence indoors including running. My knees are taking a beating with age. I find now to run without pain I need to be running on an uphill incline so that my knees are loaded. This means treadmill. :^(
Hi Harry - read your note about v2 of the Long I Beam. Need to reach out to Bruce.
Cheers Chris
Happy Canadian Thanksgiving to everyone.
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Great Brad! Let us know how that baby sounds!
In order to post pics, you have to either transfer them to your favorite online pic depository and then link it to a post using the "Insert URL" tab above the post or simply create a Virtual System page here on Agon and upload your pics. The latter is my recommendation and very easy once you get the hang of it.
Dave
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Dave,
That was indeed the problem, that issue looks solved.
Thanks, you have been more than helpful and really appreciate it!
It looks like you can't post photos, only add a link?
-Brad
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Yes frogman, it should be close to flush but I might cheat it a wee bit (since there is allowance on the other end of the spindle tube) to correct Brad’s problem rather than alter the queuing eccentric setting unless it is far off. I seem to recall messing with the queuing eccentric once and wishing I hadn’t.
I have not forgotten where I learned a great deal about the ET Two... ;)
Dave |
Hi frogman, yes it seems so. But think about a "normal" mount on a rectangular base:
The arm is mounted "precisely" and travels exactly parallel to two sides of the plinth. Correct tracking then runs on a line exactly parallel to the sides, crossing exactly the platter bearing. This is achieved by the correct "overhang".
Assuming now the arm is slightly twisted (as seen from above) and runs at an angle to the sides. The tracking line then will be twisted the same, but if it shifted by correcting the "overhang" to cross the bearing again, it tracks as correct as before,
Twisted clockwise the overhang will be a bit less, twisted anti-clockwise it is a bit more than with "correct" parallel mounting.
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You are correct; definitely prudent to check that and may indeed be the issue. On that note, the "rim" of the bearing tube should be flush or very close to flush with the front side of the joint. If the bearing tube extends out beyond the side of the joint it would probably cause the problem that xbart is having. Would you agree? |
frogman,
Completely agree with your point about rotating the tonearm assembly.
Since Brad’s table and arm was already setup when he bought it and knowing that he had removed the joint as part of his cleaning process, I thought it prudent to recommend checking his work there first vs altering the queuing eccentric adjustment.
Dave
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It is my understanding that for proper setup if one imagines (or when using the set-up jig) a straight line from the front edge of the turntable to the back edge and which goes directly through the platter’s spindle, the ET2’s tonearm tube should "intersect" that line at precisely 90 degrees. Assuming that the mounting base was aligned correctly, if one were to "turn(ing) the arm around the mounting hole" it seems to me that the desired geometry would be altered. The problem with the stylus landing inside of the lead-in groove can most easily be solved by moving the cap at the front end of the cuing eccentric ("cuing tube") towards the front so as to give the spindle extra travel distance toward the front before being stopped by the cap as intended. There is a fair amount of adjustability front to back available for this.
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Dave,
That's most likely the issue, I'll work on it!
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Hey Brad,
Also check for obstructions in the airline and nipple feeding the body of the manifold housing.
Dave It’s always preferable to eliminate obstacles between nipples and the mani folds of our bodies... Fumbling around (...) with air bearing arms, also of other makes makes things appear simpler than they seem: It’s simply a question of turning the arm around the mounting hole to get the exact desired travel, as defined by the lift bar. It may look slightly twisted though, but that’s the correct way. (You might correct a bit with pulling the end travel "hood" pushed over the bar... a bit) But basically the travel is set by turning the arm around the single mounting screw and finding the correct position. Tangentiality then is set by adjusting the length of the arm, ie. (non) "overhang". Actually all is very simple. What’s less obvious is that it is important to have c) the surface of recordings in average level, b) the platter and platter bearing level, (maybe with a smidgen of defined tilt toward the motor, both for optimized friction or dynamic behaviour with belt drives) and a) the arm level. With highly increasing importance: It’s a) where the setup sensitivity of passive tangential arms differs widely from pivoting arms. The whole mass of the arm - dynamic and static - pulls sideways with the slightest off-level. A normal pivoting arm with tilted setup compensates gravity "error" almost completely (with only the tracking force / weight remaining). With dynamically balanced arms it cancels to 100%. Fortunately the air bearing arm itself is maybe the best measuring device on earth for off-levelness. |
Consider yourself lucky to have that alignment gauge, Brad. I never had one and had to get creative to set the trajectory.
Re: the queuing problem, did you get the joint pushed back on the spindle far enough?
Dave |
Dave,
Thanks for the tips! Using the supplied alignment guide, I feel like I have it set pretty good. I will not be able to do any critical setup or listening till I get the table out of my shop. The SOTA table is to big to fit on my audio rack, luckily the SOTA came with a large heavy duty rack, but it needs some work.
I think I need to adjust the arm somehow. The larger end of the cuing tube is slightly in the way of letting the arm come down into the lead-in, it lands in the start of the first track, not in the lead-in.
-Brad
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That’s great Brad! When you get it re-assembled, make sure the stylus is tracking directly straight down the imaginary centerline aligned with the platter’s bearing spindle (not to the left or right of the centerline or even slightly diagonal) and move the weights out on the I-beam as far as possible even if you have to remove some weight to hit your tracking force (VTF) target. Do not put to much torque on the screws that tighten the arm base to the armboard as this can warp the base.
It is good to get the platter completely level but the only real way to level the arm is to use a test or other LP with blank sections where the second or third track would be and at the fifth track (the two points where you would measure the cartridge alignment with a pivoting arm) and try to get it leveled to where the stylus does not try to wander toward the center of the LP or away toward the edge at these two positions. When you get it close, you will find that even the slight tension of the wiring coming out of the end of the arm will create enough force to influence the arm's movement. Try to minimize that. It takes some doing, but will pay big dividends in sound quality.
Dave
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Hey Brad,
Also check for obstructions in the airline and nipple feeding the body of the manifold housing.
Dave Dave, I made a little more progress, it turned out to be an issue with the pump. After taking the pump apart I found one of the two magnets had come loose from the arm and it was only doing half duty. I got the pump fixed and I now have good pressure! -Brad |
Hey Brad,
Also check for obstructions in the airline and nipple feeding the body of the manifold housing.
Dave |
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Dave,
I tried just using a toothbush and IPA to clean the manifold as per the manual instructions and it still is not working. So that was going to be the next step. I need to find pipe cleaners to clean out all the holes.
-Brad
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Brad, I assume you know that you need to remove the manifold from the housing in order to thoroughly clean it. Gentle but firm thumb pressure on one end of the manifold while securely holding the housing should break it loose. Don’t strike or pry the end of the manifold with anything, just keeping working with it until it starts to budge. Check back with issues/questions and once you are done with this as there are a few things that are very critical to proper setup that are not completely detailed in the manual. There are several here that are experts and we will help. You can view my setup on my Virtual System page for reference. Click on "Toggle details" tab for explanation. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/3778Dave |
Dave,
Thanks, I'll look in to buying a gauge and try cleaning the manifold.
-Brad
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Hi Brad,
Measure the pump’s PSI output and remove/clean the manifold and the spindle. Unplug the connector cap at the front end of the spindle/joint. Only remove the joint at the front of the spindle (loosen the allen screw first) and take care not to pull the wiring plug inserted into the front end of the spindle out with the joint. Be very careful with the wiring while removing and re-installing the spindle. Joint is not indexed and the armwand should be parallel with the I-beam when properly reassembled. The I-beam will have lateral movement per its design.
Dave
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