Look forward to your impressions Manitunc.
BTW - I totally blame Frogman for any "OCD'ing" on the single, double and triple springs.
This ET2 thread/book is only 19 pages long. I think it happened around page 3 or 4.
fwiw - I like the triple spring with my XV1 but if I had to choose only one to do all cartridges I own, it would probably be the double spring for me.
Try 19 PSI with your ET 2.5 - :^)
Cheers |
Frogman - I hope you don't mind me referencing this post. But it was a sort of an - awakening - for me in truly understanding how this ET2 works. 01-09-12: Frogman
****Throwing weight at the I-beam near the spindle pivot does not increase the arms rigidity.****
Exactly.
BTW, there is a (not particularly elegant) way to experiment with lowering the I-beam compliance without use of the double spring. You can wedge (carefully, of course) a very thin piece of some very rigid material cut to fit that space, into the cavity between the spring and outer end of the counterweight cap/clamp. This will effectively allow LESS horizontal movement of the I-beam. I think you will all be very surprised at the
difference in sound.
Ain't this fun? IMO - based on my own experience If you want to get at beyond - lets say for example 7/10 with the performance of your ET2, you need to understand how the I Beam tuning can work for you in your own room/setup as it is a resonance hobby. The resonance of the Ibeam goes higher with a stiffer IBeam - this has been discussed here. Play with it - make it gel with your cartridge. fwiw - at this point even with a single leaf spring and no tuning it is still my reference tonearm. This tuning just makes the delta bigger with the others. |
Frogman - Someone explain to me how in a "captured air" bearing design air will NOT escape regardless of the pressure delivered to it. I think that when we talk about being able to hear it, it is simply that, the point at which it becomes audible; not that there is no air escaping prior to that point. Frogman - I remember talking to Bruce about this some years ago. I sent him an email and also confirmed things in a call this morning. The ET2, ET 2.5 is a captured air bearing system meaning "Air surrounds the spindle in a circle 360 degrees" I did ask him about the type of air bearing tonearm that uses a cup bearing which is floated. We did not reference the Trans Fi or other tonearm just the type of design. - his response to me on the phone- the more air and it will become floppy. So just enough air to float is required - supporting what Dave G said. ************************************************* Some more information - this was from my actual email - his response in quotations. Hello Bruce I have two general questions. If we use my ET 2.5 as an example that you set up for 19 psi. A continuous 19 psi air flow is sent in. Can we assume the spindle uses all 19 psi to work optimally (or is it a percentage of this amount) "The manifold is optimized for the design pressure, the pressure at the surface of the spindle is a percentage of the inlet measurement, this is by design." If someone has a 20 year old stock ET2 designed for about 3 psi and decides to pump in 15 psi. The extra air will just escape around the edges of the manifold and at a rate that can be heard ? "The extra air will escape, but the rate of escape will not be that large from an operational point of view, but the escaping air is usually audible which causes one problem and the air can cause a push back at the extremes of travel. " ********************************************* Bruce really like the idea of the pump test. I then asked him about all the ET2's on ebay and other sites that people are buying used - many come with no pumps. His advice was to start low with them 3 psi and go up. Whatever PSI it takes to float the spindle properly and work is the PSI that should be used. A case in point my ET 2.5 is designed for 19 psi. I told him if I start lowering the PSI it will start mistracking a few PSI below that. He confirmed this and this is by design. |
Hi Frogman - it does look like an ET2 to me - but I took my reference from their website directly. Mikro Seiki RX-1500 FVG turntable with three arms and cartridges that were, SME V arm and Dynavector XV-1S Ruby, ET2.5 arm and Dynavector XV-1T, Zeta arm and Kiseki Purpleheart Sapphire. The HP 2 is sometimes mistakenly referred to as a 2.5 Oh I agree - and does another audio product exist - that in pictures is so easy to mistake I ask ? In person they are very clear. |
Welcome to the thread Banquo... touchee!
Firstly - I am not certain of the answer myself (well it would be a guess) based on pictures themselves, especially when just one ET2 is shown.
Frogman is able to tell the difference from pictures. I think he is using the armtube as a reference ?
But the picture I posted shows only two manifolds and spindles only - no armtube.
Pictures are an illusion (sort of like this hobby?) of camera angles and scale.
imo - this is very similar to fishing, in that if a fisherman wants their fish to look bigger in the picture - they hold it out "in front" instead of to the side of them to show proper scale.
Of the two shots that are in that pic of my last post.
Here is a hint.
One of them is smaller in scale ?
Yet the spindle still appears to be the same size as the other one ?
For non-ET2 owners following the thread the answer should be clearer ?
|
|
Richard and Frogman thanks for the comments. BT in the damping trough manual You can see visually small ripples on the surface of an LP as it is turning. These continuously excite the tonearm resonance. I am firmly in the camp of regardless what your vinyl playback system is - it is but a slave to the actual record. I am also a hobbyist and not a manufacturer, dealer, distributor of analog products and or services. imo - those that set the standards for records many years ago - never imagined $5000 cartridges, $5000 tonearms and $30,000 tables of today. If they did they would have come up with better standards for the records. Frogman - as far as tone controls go I agree 100 per cent. We know when they make a record they boost the highs to drown out the cutter noise. And reduce the lows so the grooves are smaller (to fit 20 mins of music) and to keep the stylus from flying out of the groove when we play a record. We then use our cartridge and equalizer (also called a preamp/phono stage) to re-equalize levels to where we can hear it all. So to those audiophile purists that balk at equalizers - your phono stage just happens to be one. If you play vinyl you use one. possibly the result of too much L-tryptophan :-) To Frogman and others possibly suffering from Tryptophan may I recommend some music. In digital form now, originated from an analog master tape. The sampler tracks are not downloadable (yet) but can be enjoyed with either headphones hooked to your laptop or a line feed from laptop's headphone jack going to your preamp. http://ultraanaloguerecordings.com/wpsite/sample-tracks/I am not affiliated with the site but am a customer of their tapes. Cheers |
Hi Richard " spring cleaning ? " I wish. its freezing here. where to put the Christmas tree for best room acoustics in a shared room ? I am interested in your I Beam testing/findings. Is your manifold a standard low pressure one ? If so consider including tests that use just enough PSI to make the spindle float and work as Bruce designed. I think Dave's recent observations on music presentation when PSI is run higher on a regular LP 2.0, show how much we change change things up with PSI. This will change your findings/results. I am also interested to know what your and others definition is of a really eccentric record ? I believe we are all different in what we will tolerate as far as this is concerned. Wouldn't it be nice if someone came up with a record making machine that could produce holes in vinyl - LIKE A CD. Looking at the way the groove looks. http://embrangleroot.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/tumblr_m7ob01afye1qlixleo1_1280.jpg?w=614Now add an off centered hole to that mess. |
Slaw What is it you or others prefer going to 19 psi? My ET 2.5 was a custom build by Bruce designed for 19 psi. It will still work at 18 but below that it starts having problems. With no air on the spindle it is very tight in the manifold. I am using it as designed by Bruce. Now for why I had Bruce set it up for 19 psi this is another story and it is documented on the first couple pages here. It involved putting my portable regulator in my lap and raising/lowering the pressure with it while my older ET2 HP was playing music and listening. Here is something to consider especially for new owners. Lets say I just bought an ET2 on ebay or audiogon (or maybe five of them like Manitunc !) This is what I would do if the previous owner and yourself don't know what psi it was set up for. First the reference points we know about. From Bruce' website. ********************************************************** 3.6 PSI - 0riginal Takatsuki and ET-2 or 2.5 5.0- 7 PSI - WISA 300 air pump and ET-2 or 2.5 with high pressure manifolds >10 PSI - users with shop compressors and ET-2 or 2.5 high pressure manifolds NOTE; if the pressure readings are higher than those listed above, the manifold could be clogged, if the pressure readings are lower, this suggest that the pump may not be performing correctly. *********************************************************** That last sentence between the asterisks is very important and could be affecting your PSI. So unless you have an arm that is a custom build (meaning you told Bruce what PSI you wanted it set up for) then your LP & HP ET2 or ET 2.5 falls under one of those categories. I would select the best category that applies and do exactly what Dave did here if you read back. Lower the pressure to what your specific ET 2 or ET 2.5 will work properly at first - go up maybe one psi. Use this as a reference point in your system. Get to know its sound. Then start bumping up the pressure - if you like it great as this is all personal, room/gear dependent. Imagine Manitunc trying to figure this out with 5 ET2's. how's the leaf spring listening going Mani ? Cheers |
Hi Cabbiendi I would like to ask, what kind of air pressure regulators are you using for the arm ? I hope others chime in as well. I use three regulators. The first two are inside the Timeter compressor pump. http://mercurymed.com/catalogs/RDR_Compressors_Accessories.pdf?phpMyAdmin=8bad005e4170814880e9a1aebf2262f1The main regulator in there, can be seen in the manual link below on page 5 - part no. 13. Part 21 is the tube that drains moisture like a cars ac system. http://www.alliedhpi.com/images/zs168-263-002.pdfIt is a 50 psi patient respirator and has been a top turnkey air system for me for many years. this compressor/pump runs all the time. I take 19 psi from it down the line 100 feet of tubing and the rest of the psi escapes into the air at the pump through a regulated T valve. The separate in room regulator is located next to the ET 2.5. http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/i/f/1301961480.jpgThis one I know is a diaphramatic regulator / air filter and water container. I can say because of the quality of the timeter - I never see a drop of water in this regulators bulb. I have a choice to use this in room regulator, as an actual "regulator", or to open it (top knob) so it just acts as an air filter / water trap. Ultra fine air regulation (specially at low pressures) is better done with diaphragmatic regulators.
But there are passive ones with same performance.
Cummins Hydraulics - where I bought my in room regulator told me the industry considers anything up to 125 psi as low pressure. Are you in the hydraulics/pump business? Can you provide more info or insight ? Welcome to the thread. Cheers Chris |
Greg in Mississippi - welcome to the thread and Audiogon ! Another Multi ET2'er ....... the timeter ugly ? Well I guess...but I prefer the word industrial looking :^) so now I need to find adapters for the air outlets I am using a Schrader Bellows Adapter on top of the TImeter. http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/i/f/1390344387.jpgLooking at the pic on the right. Turning the knob allows me to control humidity and psi levels at the pump itself. Where to buy. http://www.parker.comClick on where to buy. Select Locate by Brand Name. Select Schrader Bellows. Follow remaining prompts for your zip code. It should come up with the places closest to you. or If you google "Mississippi Hydraulics Pneumatics" it should provide a list of places near you also for similar regulators. I recommend bringing the whole pump into the store for three reasons. - So you can watch their faces when you open up the back panel and they see what kind of compressor/pump it is. - So you can watch their faces again when you tell them what you are going to use it for (priceless) - With pump in the store they should be able to match up adapters that will work and connect them for you so you are sure. Let their expertise guide you as long as they know how you will take some air from it. If any questions you can contact me at bcpguy (at) bell (dot) net Cheers Chris |
Hi Frogman
I came across that article while having my Sunday morning coffee.
I am now having Sat Morning coffee.
Same black coffee made from beans.
Package reads 100 % Columbian Premium Whole Bean Coffee.
Company name is Zavida, Purchased at Costco. I prefer it to Tim Hortons :^)
I listen to digital and LP all the time. I can have an all digital listening session and enjoy it.
I have a lot of music on cd that I do not have on vinyl.
But when I switch to vinyl it stays there. it doesn't go back to digital later on. thats just me.
The only part of the article that stands out to me still is the analogy of hitting sticks - near a person ear and at a distance.
No idea if hitting a stick near a persons ear comes close to a square wave.
That article left a lot to personal interpretation, along with saying some things that electronically I don't think are possible.
I threw it out there because it was a little off the wall and different. Why not ?
What better thread to do this on. A heavily moderated one.
I am not very good at describing what I am hearing and you are very eloquent at this.
You have shown this here, as well as other threads at Audiogon.
Assuming you have a copy of the same recording on both CD and LP.
Assuming this is a recording that you would consider "very average" from an sound engineering perspective.
Not focusing on how the actual performances in the recording are.
Can you tell us what you hear - differences - between the two when you play the CD and LP?
I would be very interested in hearing how you describe this.
It would carry a lot more weight than the article to me.
Cheers.
|
Slaw
The purchase of the ET represents a forgone conclusion that you are and have every intention of reproducing excellent audio reproduction in your listening room. This tonearm is the equivalent of a long term relationship. One that will reward you by the more time/care/love that you are willing to put into it. Very well said Slaw. IMO you hit on ownership of this tonearm at its heart. The ET2 and ET 2.5, imo, are also like those rare products that put you in touch with your own mortality. Meaning in my case - thank you Bruce Thigpen for making a product that will probably last longer than me; and it lets me know this whenever I use it :^( I am being a little sarcastic obviously, but really I ask in this day and age ... how many products today fall into this category ? When set up per manual - consistent, reliable, can be modded, is tuneable, can accommodate all cartridges with appropriate armtube. Has already passed the hardest test of all. Time. I recently came upon this audiogon thread..... I think ET2'ers tend to take VTA for granted ? I guess I do too. We've discussed this topic here before. Note the comments from Lyra cartridge designer Johnathan Carr Cheers |
Hi Slaw, thanks for the lp recommendations. A Blues Man.... you are :^) Hope you don't mind; I put your recommendations in clickable form below to share with the others. Slaw
The Audioquest label gave us some FINE lps!
I can only remark on the ones that I own.
So, what's the difference? IMO, It's obviously the recording engineer, "Joe Harley", plus the total lack of compression! Terry Evans. "Puttin' It Down"Robert Lucas, "Luke & the Locomotives"
"Usin'"Mans's Blues"(I'm ready for a long term relationship, if, and only if, I can find a female music lover that is committed to this arm!)LOL! Slaw, well for me I have to say I am very happy that my wife puts up with my audio "shenanigans". I get away with alot...I don't want to push it anymore. however the further she stays away from the 2.0 and 2.5 the better. For you however let imagine this scenario. You are attending a big audio musical event. You visit one of the "big rooms", one where the sponsoring audio manufacturer has paid big bucks for the space. Ultra "high end gear" in there, and obviously this includes an analog setup. There are many people in this room. Turntable cost - $100,000 us. Tonearm cost - $15,000 us Cartridge cost - $7,000 us. The look on their faces when "this" person walks in......priceless $$ Happy Listening |
I came across this recent review for Bruce's speakers - ET LFT-8b. I owned 8a's at one time and regret letting them go. In the article I discovered something about Bruce that I found fascinating so I wanted to share. While my review of the LFT-8b was in progress, Thigpen went off to Africa to help with a study on the hearing of infrasound by elephants—he would be the man to go to for infra-sound all right. See rotarywoofer.com for more. The whole article. http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/eminent-technology-lft-8b-loudspeaker/ |
Slaw - I logged on and tuned in to your response regarding a female fan of the ET. Now, I'm in heaven! Not just any ET2 fan Slaw.....let me introduce you to .... DorothyI don't think I need to warn you if you read Frogman's post; that it appears u will have stiff competition from him for her attention. Appears we have similar great tastes ... beyond the ET2. She looks like a good runner to me.... |
thanks for sharing impressions Richard. With the regulator close, the soundstage shrunk both in width and depth. There is a subtle veil over the sound with attack and decay diminished. Just recollecting. When I was experimenting with PSI years ago, these are the same symptoms I encountered, when there was too much psi for the manifold and it caused the spindle to start resonating - affecting the cartridge. So out of pure curiosity my questions would be: 1)What PSI is your manifold designed for ? 2)Did you try different records that required different VTA's during the comparison ? 3)Did you try it with and without the damping trough. If you chose to compare again - I would go with a longer 6 foot section of tube to the arm and lower psi. Maybe I misunderstood what you were trying to compare so let me confirm. You went from this: pump--------40 feet hose-----tonearm manifold to this pump--------40 feet hose---regulator -----3 feet hose ---- tonearm manifold. If my crude flow chart is correct - you have imo introduced a more consistent air delivery into the manifold. The reason being alot can happen (changes)to the air in the 40 foot run. Here is something to think about. Sometimes when we introduce something that in theory should work better, for reasons described above, it ends up sounding worse. Well - what if better more consistent air delivery exposed a set up issue (i.e. too much psi) Again just thinking out loud - remote troubleshooting is difficult with a one sentence description. I do think its worth noting here again if anyone should pick up a used ET2 or ET2.5; and they do not know what PSI the manifold was set up for. One way to find out - put an old record on and start lowering pressure. When it starts skipping raise a few PSI. Fine tune final PSI by ear. ymmv - water deposits from the air could have clogged the capillaries requiring more PSI to even work ! The manifolds are easily cleaned - instructions in the manual. If I bought an Et2 from an unknown source I would clean them before setup. Cheers |
you could also let me know how much you want for it may I suggest a public auction for the titanium armwand...as this thread is now over 420k views I think there may be interest in the titanium piece? The bidding method should fetch I believe the best price for Dover if he is interested in selling. If I may start bidding at 100 Canadian loonies....(without pictures). I blame this ridiculous starting bid on the relentless pounding my ears have been taking from the crazy bird - the Loon, croaking of bullfrogs, wolves howling, hooting of owls, and the splash of jumping sm bass .. on the end of my line. must be delirious. Look forward to seeing the pics... Received two more emails from folks interested in the aluminum gooseneck and one of them wants two of them. Surely there must be a CAD person reading here that can help us out. Firstly just get rid of the flimsy & unstable suspension of that Studio (it´s floating not hanging) and you´ll be facing hugely improved performance level of that great DD TT. You can also tame the springs but it would be better to take them away altogether. Your Goldmund deserves this tweak. HNTB This hobby being what it is - I would be curious if you polled 10 Goldmund owners who felt they had dialed this table in, how the split would be - springs and without ? Cheers |
Hi LK Regarding the air hose. I had Bruce set the air hose nozzle pointing up on my 2.5. So no hole needed to be drilled. If the nozzle is pointing down it can also be turned up and re epoxied but you need to be careful with this depending on its condition. Its an alternative. regarding the wiring. this was one of the revelations for me as far as owning this tonearm. If I may use the analogy of walking a dog. For me achieving a good setup with my ET tonearm is like training a dog and the wire loom is the leash. A well trained dog never tugs on the leash and the leash always remains limp to the handler. The ET2 doesn't need the wiring and/or air tube as some other air bearing linear trackers do in their design for damping - its a free spirit and just wants to ride the grooves that are not crazy eccentric. Anyone that has moved the spindle in and out of the manifold with just 3 psi, knows what we are talking about - think - Slippery. So a recommendation for later on. Pull the wiring from the armtube/spindle areas. Set the ET2 up and balance it without the wires. Then add the wires. You will see first hand how much the wires affect its movement. Without doing this you just don't know how much effect the wires have. effect vs affect above - I can never remember ? so I used both - 50/50. As far as setting up the wires on the ET2 once balanced without them; simply add/run the wires along the armtube (are you and "in'ee or and out'ee") direct to your phono stage with a happy face loop in between to remind you of the great setup job you did. :^) thats it. I am still searching for a wireless solution btw. HNTB and Frogman - regarding suspensions. My opinion is there are suspensions and then there are suspensions. Think firm Pneumatic suspension. Frogman
+1 on removing springs; certainly trying it. Never owned the Goldmund, but have done so with three VPI's with great results. I also removed the springs from a HW19MKIV and TNT. Went pucks with the HW19 and Pneumatic with the TNT. a pic of the TNT is in my system page. I believe you are also running a pneumatic type suspension now on your TNT Frogman ? |
Frogman - BTW, the Forsell still sits in the box (es) :-( Frogman - this indicates to me that you are happy with the current set up. enjoy the music :-) fwiw - I find it very ironic and kind of funny actually that your Forsell, and my JN Lenco, two highly praised tables from a particular bloggers webage, lie in storage..... albeit for different reasons. Fascinating hobby. LK - VdHul silver wires, a little stiff from what I can gather imo - stiff for this ET2 air bearing application - not great. In another air bearing application where the design needs the wire to resist a little for damping - another story. Which do you feel is a better design ? Stiff wire inside a speaker cabinet - not a bad thing. my experiences - Braided unshielded wires help to resist RF, which is a good thing. But the wire itself become very unruly with a mind of its own when braided and asked to curve just a little. This can become a real PITA real fast. Where it leaves the armtube my wires are separated like strands of hair. Their physical resistance is cut by at least half by doing this. Each wire is then tested for RF individually. Preamp muted, lower the stylus onto a still record, unmute your preamp phonostage turn the volume up - move each wire around until things are quiet. Hold in place with blue tack. Look forward to your impressions LK. Cheers |
I'm a bit confused by mine though. Do I need a special turntable? :^) Welcome to the da club Banquo363. Interesting sellers pic of the ET2 you posted. I did a double take on it. I assume (like the others here?) that the seller had little knowledge of the ET2 based on this pic, and was therefore just the seller and not the previous owner. The armtube is showing 2 o'clock time. The seller needed to roll it back 5 hours (counter clockwise) to get to the 9 o'clock position to be correct for the sales ad picture. You got yourself an ET2 with a carbon fibre armwand and cartridge too. A type of aluminum ? pod / tonearm holder by the looks of it. I wonder what is inside the pod ? guess we will find out ..I think some real audio hobby passion went into this one by someone ...... fwiw - take notice of the green bubble level on the manifold. From my experiences these don't work with the ET2 and this is why. 1) Turntables are made from different parts. Getting one part level whether the plinth, platter, tonearm base...does not guarantee all of them will be level especially the air bearing spindle. I level in this order 1) the platter, 2) The ET2 with its own leveling spikes 3) The air bearing spindle last - using gravity not my eyes for 3 and by making it free float and not move. Think teeter totter with two same weighted friends. 2)If you do this with your eyes and the bubble level you are ignoring the effect of the wires - push or pull when the armtube is placed at the platter outer, inner edges and midpoint. Once leveled by free floating the bubble level may be out a little. This is the effect of the wires from my experiences. Leveling without the wires first then adding the wires in would confirm this. |
@Slaw I kept wondering why he didn't question Ct0517's ongoing use of 19 psi? My 2.5 HP manifold is a custom build by Bruce designed for 19 psi. I run it at the psi it was designed for. Here is a real life example of a situation that may help understand what I said a few posts earlier in the Air Bearing Sticky Post. A long time ET2'er is running a base ET2 which has had a recent cleaning maintenance done. He runs it with the stock original Takatsuki pump that still produces the 3.0 needed for the base ET2 to work, but not the 3.6 PSI the pump produced when it was new. It sounds good to him. On a whim he buys a little Medo medical pump on ebay. He notices that it makes 12 psi at the pumps output, but after travelling down 15-20 feet of air line he discovers the PSI drops to 7 psi at the gauge mounted near the tonearm. The music sounds better to him so even though this Medo makes enough noise to have to isolate in another room, he keeps it in place as it is worth it to him. He has it hooked up to 20 feet of hose and in another room. He's happy. He puts the stock pump away as a backup. Now the maker of the our tonearms teaches us that if we improve the air supply the sonics will improve; but that over PSI'ing the arm can't hurt it physically as it is a robust design. Based on the above example and info, did the sound get better with the little Medo pump because; 1) The PSI at the ET2 was increased to 7 psi from 3.5 stock pump. or 2) The overall air quality delivered by the little Medo pump was better. What do you think .... 1 or 2 above ? btw If anyone here is running a system with 10-15 feet of air line, and you have a quality pump that can still produce the PSI you need with a 60 - 100 feet of air line. Buy the air line as it is cheap - coil it up like a car's coil spring to save space. You will improve your sonics but only if your pump is of a design that can deliver the PSI for the longer run. Try it and find out. From Bruce' website. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3.6 PSI - 0riginal Takatsuki and ET-2 or 2.5 5.0- 7 PSI - WISA 300 air pump and ET-2 or 2.5 with high pressure manifolds >10 PSI - users with shop compressors and ET-2 or 2.5 high pressure manifolds Note, if the pressure readings are higher than those listed above, the manifold could be clogged, if the pressure readings are lower, this suggest that the pump may not be performing correctly. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Slaw - you got your tonearm direct from Bruce correct ? What PSI was your HP manifold designed for ? Lets start there.... imo this is your personal reference point for your system ... |
yo-yo-yo wassup ?Been digging out from the past storm with a very weak snowblower. :^( We hardly got any of the white stuff that hit Buffalo a couple of weeks ago. It was seriously looking like a brown Christmas. That changed 2 days ago! Should have dealt with the symptoms of a stretched auger belt last year. Ones gets lazy with age. Bought 20 years ago my Craftsman 11 hp 31 inch snow throw can once again win the snow pissing contest after replacing a $20 auger belt. A timeless design. I am a total sucker for these kinds of things. I am surrounded by this stuff and I include my audio gear when I say this; It will all outlast me. I can't stand disposable items ...which is what our society has become. Note: Its important when having so much fun hurling snow 20 feet to avoid hitting your wife's car. The 4 month old pup can't seem to resist himself, jumping and hurling himself too; trying to catch waves the of flying snow being thrown out by this incredible man made invention. btw - This is the only time you will ever be able to find a black lap pup - in amongst all the white stuff at night. He normally needs to wear a collar flashing light so we can find him in the dark. In the spirit of this thread, some ET2 passion shots to warm things up a bit ? coming up |
Dover
Ct0517 - when I do VTA adjustments I always loosen the 4 bolts slightly to release pressure on the arc block, and then retorque. Indeed if you loosen the bolts too much alignment goes out, but you can loosen them slightly whilst arm is mounted if you are careful. This gives new meaning to ET2 VTA On The Fly. Before I drive down the road in my car, I make sure that the rubber has been mounted properly on the rims, and that the wheels have been properly installed and torqued on the car, before it hits the road. I don't touch the bolts after that. This is no different and the reason for the analogy. Dover
By the way in your original post you suggest using the short end of the allen key - in fact using the long end in the cap screw, and turning the short end to turn will put less torque on the bolt. The wording I posted is direct from Bruce. I took "use the short end" to mean the person "holding" the short end, which is what is implied. However you took the meaning differently, and maybe others did too, so lets clear this up. Here are Bruce' instructions again and @ Dover, note the wording below "'We would not attempt this adjustment with the tonearm installed on a turntable. " Chris,
My first rule would be to use the short end of the Allen wrench as the lever for torquing any screws on the ET-2. The short lever arm will limit the applied torque.
For the two bearing blocks that mesh the pinion to the rack in the arc block we first adjust the blocks so that they are parallel to the manifold housing with a .060 -.090 gap between the bearing block and the back adjacent surfaces on the manifold housing.
The friction between the manifold housing and the arc block define the feel of the VTA mechanism lever action. We want this to offer some resistance, but not too much when a VTA adjustment is attempted. Turn the 4/40 x 3/4 bearing block screws so that some friction is encountered when adjusting VTA but not so much that the VTA mechanism locks up. We would not attempt this adjustment with the tonearm installed on a turntable.
The main failures we see with the arc blocks are:
1.The threaded insert on back surface of the arc block is cracked due to over torquing of 8-32 stainless steel button head post mounting screw.
2.The bearing blocks on either side of the arc block which support the pinion gear are over torqued which crushes the pinion into the rack and binds the mechanism, if a VTA change is attempted with over torqued bearing blocks the pinion turns and the rack does not move, stripping the teeth on the rack.
I hope the above helps
- brucet |
Boy.... tough crowd .... do you agree Dover ?
John47/Frogman - I always seem to have good luck fishing when the lure has a chartreuse color scheme to it.
So I am thinking of getting a chartreuse colored wrench...that is unless Dover advises differently.
Probably be easier to find it when I drop it in the carpet as well. Maybe it will fall next to the loose leaf spring I have been looking for. (Forum readers that have never owned an ET2 and not paying attention here are now heard muttering - what is a loose leaf spring ? )
Frogman - thx for the link. I am a little disappointed that PB Swiss Tools doesn't offer an Audiophile "Woodie" version made from the hardest and densest wood. A Woodie wrench would have (past tense) made a great Christmas gift match to an audio friend who recently tried his ET2 with what he calls the
"ET2 Chopstick I Beam Mod"
If he sees this I dare him to post a pic here.
Who knows ...it might make it into the Annual 2015 ET2 Audiophile W(rap) |
Welcome to the thread Schubert. Back in the 70's I worked for a big dealer who had every known MM cart known to man in stock.Thousands of them. The only thing that could beat an Acutex was probably the best MM cart ever made ,the Empire EDR-9 . Sounds like a real cool job to have. In the mid 70's I was in the middle of puberty working as a busboy scraping for money. If I worked for your audio dealer guy I may have been tempted to stuff some cartridges down my pants pockets (making sure stylus guard was on of course). I'm sure some on the MM thread would challenge your Acutex claim; especially Raul once he returns from his "sabbatical". Don't expect a challenge from him here however. From personal emails he never figured out the ET2. A 420 cost him about 40 bucks as I recall. But he bought hundreds at a time. Was he Italian by chance ? Lets assume "hundreds" is 300. $40 x 300 = $12,000 $520 x 300 = $156,000 I paid $70 Cdn. for mine back in 2012 incl. shipping. I remember it vividly because it was advertised as a Puntina. Very close to Putana that I am familiar with so it made me laugh. There is that brothel theme again. The first time I heard the 420 I also laughed, then some singing and dancing. Maybe some of that later today also. Happy and safe New Year to everyone and its already Jan 1 in NZ as I post this and just after midnight as I hit submit here, Downunder. Cool |
Audiophile newlywed - part deux. Honey, HOLD HERE please (so I can xxxxxx this) Replace xxxxxx's with words below. (occasional hints provided in brackets) straighten (cantilever) push flatten (record) wriggle (cartridge lead) strip attach roll ( 8^0 ) inject (tonearm damping fluid - what were u thinking ? ) bolt paste highlightcheck rinse (record) tie (string drive) blot dry (record) twist mend wipe knot (string drive) . . . . lick- (day glo label for ET2 Allen key) Important before attaching - Affix to short end of key) your choice of colorsThe above is meant to help out audiophiles, newly married. @John47 If I ever manage people on a paying project again I will send u a job offer for the QA role ? :^) I am still till today kicking myself for not including your moniker in the brothel post story. |
The famous Italian Puntina is back. Not to be confused with Puttana. Although this cartridge, if set up properly, may make you forget, temporarily, the later? nah... And this time coming to us from......drum roll please......... Oh Canada. We stand on guard for thee.... But ! ...just as our Canadian dollar is doing its best impression of acting like a hockey puck, that has just been tossed into the water. This Canadian seller...... has smartly priced out the Puntina in American dollars. Oh...when will that US dollar ever fall ? Do you guys remember when I posted about the high price of gas here? It was in the same post that I made reference to how Bruce has held his prices on ET 2 parts. Well two weeks later do you remember what happened to the price of gas .... coincidence ? Could this post trigger something again...... hah hah For ET 2.0 and 2.5 owners. this cartridge allows you to use One FAT and One THIN lead weight at the very end of the I Beam. My current cartridge is an MC, a little heavier and requires two Fatties on the I Beam yes the 420str really is that light- hence its nickname Cracker Jack Box Cartridge. Set up this way, it allows the ET tonearm to achieve its greatest vertical inertia. For me, this produces the best tuneful bass; When used in a room that is easily pressurized without stressing the amp/s. btw - did u know that authentic Canadian made hockey pucks make great audio component stand legs/isolators ? First bid in... anyone here ? |
Bigalt -The solution is one of the wireless ( rf not infrared ) remote switched outlets that you can buy online. Press a button on the remote and on goes your compressor. Another press and it's off..... Bigalt- thanks for the recommendation on the remote. A friend also pm'ed me about this remote upon reading my encounter with the troll. :^) he sent me this link I am very sensitive about what I plug into the wall. It all goes back to the main panel. My gut feel is I may be substituting a Troll** for a Gremlin, if I added that device between the pump and the outlet. True Story When finishing the 2nd adjacent music room there was this hum (aka Gremlin). I thought it was an amp issue. But when the amp was off it was still there. Go figure... I traced it to the door bell transformer mounted and plugged in along side the ceiling joists. I pulled the wires. Noise went away. Silence between songs. ** I later discovered the identity of the Troll. Our 20 year old son raiding our basement freezer early in the morning on his weekly food rampage. Freezer is plugged into a different outlet separate outlet :^) |
Bigalt
My HW19 Mk IV with Super Platter, SAMA, Walker Motor Controller and ET2 ( HP manifold ) with a Sumiko Talisman Virtuoso dti cartridge is one of my favorite turntables ( I currently have 8 ). 8 turntables.. Holy Moly.... How many are setup for active duty ? :^) We all seem to "collect" in this hobby. Audiogon member Manitunc from this thread, has admitted to owning Five ET2's. I admit to hobby collection problems also. Although I see my HP ET 2.0 and 2.5 as tools to complete the turntable setup. My collection problems seem to center around speakers. An interesting ET2 came into my inbox. A rare HP manifold version.not affiliated with the ad. I must say looking at all the parts shown shown in the ad, it must be intimidating to those not familiar with the arm ? I can remember some years ago, people would list ET2 HP models on auction sites for the same price as base models, unaware of differences. hmm.... |
SLAW - I use a #2 silk bead cord that lasts and lasts. Thanks very much Slaw for the info. your experiences with VPI and having to use a Cord type drive coincides with mine experiences from the past. IMO - The VPI decks (platter/bearing design) is not designed for use with thread /string. A heavier type cord is required. Sure you can use string/thread but it won't last long. This was the reason I asked. Years ago in conversations with Mike at VPI his preference was to use the Spider brand Fishing Line. Regarding your use of the word tension. IMO - tension is a relative term when it comes to TT's. For example. My Verdier La Platine Granito was designed for thread/string. The thread is set up very loose. When properly set up you can actually flick at the thread as the music plays and there is no noticeable pitch change. The platter keeps going. In fact the motor which flickers as it turns the platter can also be shut off and on within a couple of seconds with the same result. The string/thread side load (tension) on the Verdier platter is very low. In comparison my previously modded TNT "did" need significantly more side load tension to work. My experience has also been the smaller/thinner the string/thread in use, the greater, more explosive the sonics. This was one of the reasons that drove me to a final deck designed specifically for string/thread. I am using Guetermann s-303-800 Cheers |
07-13-15: Schubert
We probably don't know 20% of the variables in audio and most likely never will.
I had occasion few years ago to watch one of the acknowledged
best symphony space designers work on a multi-million upgrade to a hall, he said at the end of the day its cut and paste. Schubert - an observation. food for thought Its been my personal experience in seeing/hearing performances, and when I played trombone that the bass section players are always in the back. Interesting then ? when it comes to reproduction of this music in an audiophile music room; my experience has been that speaker manufacturers put the bass drivers in front of the midrange/tweeters as the bass waves are much different - slower. This is very evident with both my Quad 57's and B&W 801 Matrix s3 monitors. Now if the drivers are all on one even plane I imagine the same magic is being accomplished within the electronics circuitry. hmm... |
Frogman - I am typing while listening to a performance by half a dozen bullfrogs each making a sound that is remarkably like this: How fitting. A post about the music of "frogs" from Frogman. Ours resonate at Double Bass A :^) |
Oh you got me curious now Frogman. So the bullfrogs where we are sound most like the Double Bass instrument to me, and are in A. But at what octave ? Here is an interesting link for the Double bass. Double Bass Frequency chartWe can see for A - the lowest octave is 27.5 hz. But our bullfrogs play at a higher octave. As octaves go up the frequency doubles. So I played around on the computer this morning. The bull frogs are really close to this note. Push the A Piano keyI then did an internet search sampling bass Hz on the internet. 110 HZDamn - aren't they at 110 hz ! Now here is the crazy gear aspect of this. My Lenovo laptop built in speakers CAN'T play this note. It can only be heard (110 hz) with my old pair of full size headphones plugged into the Lenovo laptop. ok... I need to be careful here. If my wife catches me having this much fun she will give me another PRA-ject to do. |
Interesting how yours sound so different than mine do Frogman I shot a short video (it was dark - 3:00am) with my phone and the sounds were the same as the last two clips in your links. 1) Frog croaking and 2) Bull frog. But the phone and my laptop as I mentioned earlier are limited in what they can achieve. Just a thought I have taken the same audio gear right down to the cables and placed into multiple rooms. This included different locations. building types even on different power grids. This was done due to job travel, moving to a different house, ... The resulting music was always different and most noticeable to me in the bass (waves) and how they interacted with the room volume, materials, etc... So, if we take two same frogs and relocate to two very different areas. Maybe one is placed in a marshy type environment with long grasses that help filter. The other near a smooth lake surrounded by hills. I think the two frogs will sound different to someone that is at least some distance away; so that he/she is able to hear the influence to the sound from the immediate surrounding area? Is this influence/effect not known as "the Room" - in this Audio Hobby of ours ? But if you put a microphone up close to a frog (before the surrounding area can influence their sound. They should sound the same, no ? btw - I always have a problem with the use of effect and affect. :^( Seems everyone wants to discuss component gear all the time on these forums. The Room aspect is rarely discussed it seems to me. I feel it deserves its own Audio category. I am back up north again. I have title to a piece of property here and pay property taxes. But while I am here I have always felt a visitor to the wild life that surrounds me. It is their place so I just try to fit in. |
Wow...Gourmet "farm raised" ? trout for lunch. Me thinks, he (Blue Herron) thinks, you fit in really well Frogman :^) Frogman - I have no problem providing a $4 lunch to a Herron and the sight of it was more than worth it $4.00 US dollars per 8 - 10 inch trout. 4 US bucks, is now $5.26 Canadian dollars. Does anybody need a new definition for slippery slope ? A tidbit Trout (lake trout variety ) are very sensitive to oxygen levels. Up our way since at least 1988 when we bought up there, all lake trout cottage lakes have been designated as limited future build. if someone owns just land (no cottage) whether 1/2 acre or even 200; they are only allowed to put up one building. Even one place can be challenging with the steep rocky terrain; but cottagers can be quite inventive. Well, yesterday, as I sat on my porch swigging Moosehead Ale (really) and listened to Brahms' Fourth Seems we like the same beer as well as tonearm :^) One of my favs. Another one, also from Eastern Canada. (Down East as we call it here) Alexander Keith's India Pale Ale. Although some Sleeman Original Draught has been going down really really well ...... with this hot, very humid summer. Moosehead beer had a godmother as a founder... from the website Meet our founding mother
Back in 1865, Susannah Oland sailed from England to Nova Scotia with her family and, lucky for us, with her recipe for a rather delicious brown October ale. Cheers to that. |
08-26-15: Pegasus
Interesting “facts discussion” about linear vs. radial tonearms, most have probably read it: Are linear tracking arms better than pivoted arms? Sadly mostly boring (ie. repeated, but skewed arguments)… but some interesting points. Hi Pegasus - nice to hear from you again. Re: Pivot versus Linear discussion. IMO - Everyone that has been in this audio hobby for any length of time knows its all a "set up" game - vinyl. My personal experiences have been a good pivot arm set up well, will out perform a below average set up of an ET2. So in my opinion we need to be very careful with reviews and experiments, as they are based on that person's setup only and it doesn't represent other set ups. Rooms are different as is the gear right down to the TT setup and condition of the cartridige. No two are alike . So I say for all these professional reviewers who know this already. THEY HAVE ALL SOLD A BIT OF THEIR AUDIO SOUL FOR SOME AUDIO DOUGH. ....heh heh heh ... So its an individual basis thing just like all our systems. With that the better design always has the most potential. And potential for this audio hobby is defined to me as more ROPE for The Vinyl Hangman :^) Still to this very day, FOR ME, Bruce Thigpen said it best. Re: Pivot Arms. Page 46....... ET2 Manual ******************************************************** There is a force component (vector) that is directed toward the center of the record. It results from the stylus drag force vector not falling in line with the pivot point of the arm. This force pulls the tonearm inward and the stylus can be observed as bending outward. THIS FORCE AND THE RESULTING BENDING CAN BE DEMONSTRATED BY CONNECTING A RUBBER BAND TO A PIVOTED ARM AROUND THE CARTRIDGE BODY AND PULLING IT STRAIGHT AHEAD (AWAY) FROM THE TONEARM. NOTE: THE MOTION OF THE TONEARM IS INWARD AND RESULTS IN THE BENDING OF THE RUBBER BAND (CANTILEVER). ******************************************************* You guys with pivot arms should try it. put a rubber band around the cartridge on your pivot arm and pull. (Hey - not responsible for any beheaded styluses). Been there, done that. Watch and .......feel...... what happens. You will never again doubt why Antiskate is needed on a pivot arm. |
Pegasus et al
have u considered using a DIY Faraday cage for the last part of the wire loom - the part that doesn't affect the spindle movement right after the wire loop to where the wires go into your phono.
A sample Faraday cage recipe. For around wires.
1) Small teflon tube.
2) Larger teflon tube around smaller tube.
3) Brass / copper around wires to which a ground cable is attached at the end furthest from the phono.
4) Finish off with attractive audiophile sleeving :^) - optional.
The cage will capture all the crap and send it to the ground wire that you attach to your preamp/phono ground.
This is good option if your rack/gear setup design does not allow for the James Bond maneuvers I discussed in my previous post. :^) |
- Frogman - as u r a New Yorker, I wanted to mention I was very touched last night watching the NY Mets - KC Royals baseball game; when the camera focused on Billy Joel and the PA system played "Piano Man" with everyone singing. What class ! Go Mets Go - those damn Royals took out our Toronto Blue Jays..... :^( ***** Pegasus
Yes I have two twisted silver wires running left and right of the tonearm. Another example of how the ET2 design allows you to be inventive and ingenious with the wiring. In this case Pegasus a picture would be worth a thousand words. Dover....Started picking up local radio stations and all sorts of rf. Twisting the wires helped but did not eliminate the rf...... Attention Attention. We seem to picking up radio and RF. Immediately invoke 007 maneuvering. and while at it please bring up that Faraday cage up from the vault as a backup. This seems to be a very persistent strain Sounds like disco(love the Bee Gees btw) :^) |
-
******* YELLOW STICKY ET 2 THREAD - FACTORY SETTING OF PSI - REGULAR AND HIGH PRESSURE MANIFOLDS ************
I reached out to Bruce to help shed more light on how our manifolds work - both regular and high pressure HPM models. He responded and I believe answers the questions for our thread. Comments welcome.
--------------------------------------------------------
Hi Bruce
Was hoping to shed some light for ET2 owners on our thread regarding how the setting of PSI on our manifolds was done.
A couple of questions.
1) Are the set screws in the manifolds set up differently for different PSI's ?
2) Does setting a higher minimum PSI manifold (i.e. 19 PSI minimum), mean the spindle/manifold (gap) is smaller, tighter. How I came to ask this.
My ET 2.5 which you set up for highest possible psi 19. It continues to dominate over my digital. I also own an older ET2 High Pressure Manifold. I have noticed without air applied, that pushing my spindle through the manifold on the ET 2.5 is tighter, than the spindle going through the older ET2 manifold. The older ET2 HPM will also work with a lower psi, example 7 psi.
Appreciate any information you can provide.
*********************************************************
Chris,
The pressure drop across the set screws define the restoring force and part of the stiffness of the air bearing.
The tolerance between the Manifold Inner Diameter and the Spindle Outer Diameter determines the lifting pressure as a function of flow rate through the set screw. Without a restoring force or pressure drop across the set screw, the bearing will lock up, so you always need a higher air pressure in the manifold housing as compared to the pressure at the surface of the spindle.
The high pressure manifolds have a slightly tighter tolerance between the spindle and manifold, they also use a set screw with more plating to restrict the air flow around the threads to create the increased pressure drop (the difference between the pressure in the manifold housing and the pressure at the surface of the spindle).
It does not hurt to slide the spindle in the manifold bore without air, the resistance you feel may be the surface finish roughness on the hard coat anodizing as well as tolerance.
I hope this helps, thank you very much.
-brucet
*********************************************************
Happy Listening |
"It ain't over 'till it's over" yes - they are in deep doo doo now - Down like the Jays were 3-1. In today's game have your pitcher like in game 1 - once again throw close to their lead off batter (who always swings on the first pitch) This time - make it even closer. Moustakas will really lose his cool this time and run into the field at your pitcher. He will be ejected. One up Mets. All is fair in sport - that's why there are rules. Cheering from this side of the border :^) more Billy Joel Until the Night One of my favorites. The lead up from the 4:00 minute mark to the climax gets to me every time. For the romantic - a good one to crank up for those times when you put yourself in big doo doo with the wife. You know...a successful marriage requires 1/2 dozen songs like this ...ready to play at any moments notice :^) - |
Pegasus - Generally, I find that one considerable advantage of low impedance MCs is that they don't need screening through bypassing / dumping external EM-fields through their low impedance. +1 Dover - Also I did not have the arm grounded either. No hum or noise with Shure V15vxmr or various LOMC's. In many talks with the fellow that made my Wire Loom a few years ago now. He has confirmed to me that from his own professional experience/discussions with his customers; that in his opinion air bearing tonearms provide a level of isolation that pivot arms can not match. He has not had one customer with a pivot arm be able to use a loom like this. He makes similar looms for pivot arm customers; but they plug into the back of the pivot arm hub and there is a faraday cage the last foot or two near the phono stage. Depending on the design of the preamp/ phono. My preamp sits to the immediate right of the TT on the next rack. I sit beside the preamp. (hence no need for remote) . The design of the preamp/phono has the phono to the back right. If it was on the left I could have used wiring about a foot shorter. Just sayin... also Regarding shielded cables, I still own some Purist Audio Venustas phono cables. They are nice cables and are well made. On the "audiophile perception" used market, they are worth as much as a used base ET2 in decent shape. With that very small phono signal, once you have made it work good "naked" you realize (can hear) what all that material in the cables is doing to the sound in a comparison after - in your own system. What' s that you are asking ? the Venustas ...how did they sound in comparison ? In my room sounded "sweeter", like adding a little sugar on top, but with also a perceived smaller pipe of sound. Hey - not a bad thing at all really ...a little sweeter .. right ? I happen to be someone who takes my morning coffee black. I'm pretty sure that someone who takes a double - double coffee will like something else better. Afterall ... all is fair, as far as what you want to use for rope with this Audio Hangman Game .... right ? And remember the Cables Forum at Audiogon has almost 9400 separate threads |
11-04-15: Ct0517
Pegasus - Generally, I find that one considerable advantage of low impedance MCs is that they don't need screening through bypassing / dumping external EM-fields through their low impedance.
+1 Just to add, for those who will be attempting the James Bond maneuvers; use a higher signal / noise MM or other cartridge if possible. If you can make that one work, the MC will be a breeze. btw - any one going to go see the new Bond flick "Spectre" ? I saw "The Martian" last week. Cheers |
Pegasus
"Somehow a "better" insulation with thinner litz wires should be "capable" of better radio reception :-/ ;-) "
"While I had a big issue with some intermittent RF signals ( ;-), probably radar " You are one funny guy Pegasus. :^) So much possible comedic material when analyzing audiophilia. I would pay to go see you perform it at Just For Laughs. |
^^^^^^^ Pegasus - I am not an amplifier-preamplifier-phono manufacturer; but someone who bases all products I own (not just audio) on design, construction, operability, reliability, and with my audio products together - making music (lets call this part implementation). I don't tolerate downtime, hiccups, or operability problems especially with any products that are supposed to, with others as part of a whole - bring me pleasure for leisure activities. It has been my experience with all products (not just audio), that a good design to start does not guarantee a good implementation. In fact. The lesser design implemented well; can have better end results than a better design not implemented well. The setting up of a vinyl turntable system - especially the tonearm - being a perfect example ? Now I do own audio amplifiers with both type of transformers. It is my general understanding that a toroidal transformer by design is better to minimize hum and buzz. So it makes it ideal I would think for a preamp / phono design. But in reality my understanding is it is in fact much more difficult to implement a toroidal design. Harder to make. It stands to reason then that to implement this type of design will cost more. Pegasus
The LFD, with some hum and interference problem in our test, has toroidal transformers ;-) Interesting. Is this the one ? LFDThere are toroidal transformers and then there are toroidal transformers. True Story Was finishing the basement space adjacent to my main music room - to hold my extra gear and it became music room B. I assembled some gear and started listening in the unfinished room space. This gives you a good idea "with your gear", how much damping and other room treatment is going to be needed. Now, with no music playing, whenever I would get up to change the lp or cd I would hear a hum as i walked close to the gear. I followed all the normal procedures to find and eliminate the hum. It was not audible at the listening position. It did not come from the speakers or individual components that were turned on. Frustration set in. Then one day when I was standing between the speakers with no music playing my right ear got fixed on the hum. It was a transformer that I discovered was for the front door bell. It had been mounted to the side of one of wood beams supporting the main floor. Only visible from a certain angle. I followed the cord unplugged it and the buzzing transformer stopped. What relief ! My wife was not as happy as me about this event. I promised my wife I would re-locate it to the back of the house. But I like not having a door bell ....... There is a knocker on the door. But I also discovered that people have forgot how to use those things. They need to see buttons now. Moral of the story and Lesson Learned for me. When trying to eliminate hum and buzz... Look straight ahead; look to the left; look to the right; look down. Don't forget to look up. btw... it was not a toroidal transformer :^) |
Frogman - Wait, this is a trick question..... If I provided "e) all of the above" - it would have made it too easy for all you sharpshooters on the thread. Impressive thought process ! Pegasus
We suspected already during an earlier listening sessions, that the slowly increasing amount of dry air exiting the tonearm creates - a lot! - of static charge on the vinyl surfaces. And it had a considerable effect sonically. The ionizer, building up a certain reserve of air ions (smells also a bit like Ozone), seems to eliminate this problem. Hmmm... An interesting comment Pegasus. I have humidity gauge right next to the TT, One foot away. The needle doesn't move during the hours I am in there. But that is maybe too macro a level.... Have you ever tried a smoke pencil puffer under the sides of the manifold to see the air stream pattern ? 1) With a still record and 2) with a record in play which is playing big bass Good air movement is ...good :^) now where did I put that smoke pen .... "Smoke 'em if you got 'em" - - |
Pegasus
Regarding EI (there are several other "square" cores BTW) vs. toroidal transformers: Things are not that simple. While a toroidal has the advantage of a more simple "flowing" magnetic circuit, it's main "advantage" is the absence of an air gap - an economic advantage. This makes for considerably less iron for a toroidal, and more inductivity with less windings. This makes for a low (ohmic !) loss transformer, with low impedance windings.
However this creates disadvantages: The saturation of a toroidal is very sharp, and with the industry practice (and the practice of almost all audiophile transformer builders) of driving the transformers too close to the magnetic saturation point of the cores ("Efficient" ! Bling!) they are *the* achilles heel of excessive sonic mains sensitivity.
And within these issues DC on the mains (a strong disturbance of high variability) drives a toroidal transformers very easily into saturation, a massive disadvantage!
The last related disadvantage of a toroidal is the inherently lower ohmic loss: It produces (much) higher charging current spikes, which on their own magnetize the (hard limited) toroidal core much harder, and again pull away reserves from the iron core. Low loss is not per se better, on magnetic circuits it creates very audible problems. What if; You have two Solid State Amps Class A/B that both put out 100 wpc *** at 8 ohms and both have toroidal transformers. Their specs look like this. Amp A 2 - ohms - n/a 4 - ohms - 125 wpc 8 - ohms - 100 wpc *** 16- ohms - 50 wpc 32 - ohms - 25 wpc Amp B 2 - ohms - 400 wpc 4 - ohms - 200 wpc 8 - ohms - 100 wpc *** 16- ohms - 50 wpc 32 - ohms - 25 wpc. If both are driving full range speakers at a decent SPL level. These speakers dip to 2 ohms for the low bass requirement. Question: Is transformer saturation the right word to describe what is going to happen to Amp A first ? Just asking .... |
Thanks for the reply Pegasus. I enjoy reading your posts. My previous post was a generic example, and specific for only one type of SS situation. Although the specs I mentioned for the amps and speakers in the previous post are common in today's audiophile market place. Something stood out to me in what you said and if I may make one more point here. And which design optimisation has to take places with which compromises to reach the intended goal. It has been my personal experience over the years, that in talking with about 1/2 dozen or so amplifier manufacturers and doing research on them; I discovered that they each had a target speaker design (brand and/or model) that their amplifier was based around. They have to after all hook up their amps to something right ? Amplifier makers are forthcoming usually on what speakers they are using for current testing. Likewise for speaker makers on the amps they use. Those looking for answers should give them a call directly. With this method business partner relationships are also discovered. There are a few rules (guidelines) in audio. The rules that revolve around the speakers themselves, have a big effect on the amplifier design. For example if we put our experiences aside and, come into this as if we were new to the hobby. Consider these three questions. Consider each as a separate consideration onto itself. A sort of silo. 1) What if a person wants to reproduce full range music. What majority would not want this ? To hear all that was recorded. 2) What if a person wants good efficiency - again who doesn't really want this...no different than installing a furnace/air conditioner ? We check off the high efficiency box if we can. This also leads to lower utility bills, saving the planet, just make sense... 3) What if the person wants the reproducers "speakers" to take up a small area - un-obtrusive. Bookshelf size - Again if you could why not ? Who really wants 8 foot towers in their living room? Or those huge speakers that need to be disguised as huge sculptures in the dwelling to work - really ? Well you can only have two of the three above. If someone doesn't believe it; run through the math and the scenarios of the 3 options. If a friend asks me today for an opinion, and I know he has not already been made biased by reviews, dealers, forums, etc... I will say take your pick of the two that most appeal to you. Then look at the one that got left out. Whichever one it is - go the opposite to it in design - and if you can accept that, you're done. Your path is clear. Go find that speaker ! All choices in between are a compromise - Leading back to Pegasus' quote above. To me the speaker is the Alpha over the amplifier. This also explains my speaker problem (multiple pairs). I see an amplifier/s as nothing more than a mechanical device that needs to gets the job done and does not break down over time. The amplifier needs to serve the speaker and allow it to make music. The order of my points above do happen to show my personal order choice. My full range speakers are 93db, and can make nice music with a small tube amp. But they are also kinda big. Pegasus - It's BTW a question too, how desirable a wide bandwidth is for a power transformer, which is an inherent property of the general winding technique of toroidals. @Pegasus - my personal midrange reference speakers are unique for 2015. This is because they have a design from 1957 - which is older than me. They do not follow the above rules I posted. They are fairly large, not full range, and their efficiency ? The speakers need 30 + ohms from an amp....in order to do the proper bass and as you can see from the graph, 2-3-4 ohms for proper high frequencies. How is that for bandwidth requirement ? Through research and empirical means I have already found a perfect tube amp for them, for my room. Pegasus et al I don't think a SS amp exists that can serve them properly ? Again through empirical means the SS ones I have tried seem to choke - become so pooped out on the 30+ ohm load reqt for bass - that they seem to have nothing left to give at the requirement needed to reproduce the high frequencies. This leads to the band-aid - external tweeter. ************************************************ Audio Hangman - The Big Rocks -----------------------Room------------------------------ ---------------------/-------------------------------------- -------------------/---------------------------------------- ---------------Speakers ---Source--------------------- ----------------/------------------\------------------------ ---------------/--------------------\----------------------- ---------Amplifier--<<<-----Pre-Amp/Phono------ ------------------------------------------------------------- I sure hope this neat doodling feature is not taken away away when the new Audiogon forums go live in two weeks. An editing feature once post goes in would help though. Sorry for any mistakes. My previous post that said Impressive thought process ! (Should have read - Impressive thought process Frogman!) |
So you listen on Quad ESL 57? Yes. in Room B Room A is using Matrix 800 speakers. Room A is my main room since '94 with my main turntable. The pic is from recent discussions on my system thread of successfully integrating the sub nearfield with the Quad 57. I am very excited about this :^) The arrows point to sub locations I have tried. More pictures of both rooms with equipment lists can be seen if you click on my system link. My wife does not share my audio passion but she recognizes the audio problem, so she lets me use the basement. :^) Dedicated space (The Room) is very important for optimizing music. But what is more important long term, and what can not be see by pictures is how the dedicated space can keep your marriage together in a case like this. Well so far...lol...How do you put a value on that ? I guess it depends o the marriage. Word on the street....married guys are in general a happier lot......they are just more willing to die :^) There were some highly regarded german SS amps that worked as a current source. This is interesting. I would of been very interested to hear them if they were available here. After SS amps - American, Canadian, Japanese, plus also Quad's own SS plus a couple tube amps; I am using an American tube amplifier - Music Reference RM10. The designer Roger Modjeski designed and built the RM10 for his own Quad 57 speakers. A total new world of listening opened up with this amp/57 combo. For those more interested in this ESL /Amp requirements world, Roger Modjeski does IMO a very good short one page summary here See the first post. A couple good points from the link. Recognize he is pushing his own direct drive amps in the 3rd paragraph.
Roger Modjeski
2. This second class of ESL speakers is multi way using panels of different dimensions and often different voltages to obtain line source dispersion. By adjusting the panel size and shape flat response can be obtained without the need for EQ. All the QUAD speakers do this having much larger area for the bass than the treble. The 57 is a 3 way line source where the 63 is a two way point source. I prefer the 57.
The Quad 57s are only 200 pF and the 63's are low also. In general the ESLs that use full range panels have the highest capacitance and are therefore least efficient. The multi-way ESLs (that means mulit-way in the electrostatics themselves) tend to be low capacitance and much more efficient. The extremes are the QUAD 57 needing 15 watts of drive and the Beveridge needing 1,500. Trumpet music is most demanding. Being a little in disbelief about the 1500 watt number I measured a half amp at 3000 volts. No wonder these speakers can't be driven any other way. The QUAD on the other hand needs the voltage of a 15 watt amplifier (at 16 ohms) but from a 4 ohm tap. In my experience that although the QUAD 22 amp was made to drive the 57 speaker, it was rather rolled off at the top due to the fact that the speaker impedance did fall to about 4 ohms. Not everything QUAD did was exactly as they said, contrary to the rather perfectionist philosophy proposed in the QUAD book.
One nice thing about my direct drive system is that by changing just 2 capacitors in my crossover one can set the brightness of the speaker to his desires either more or less than the standard by as much as 12 dB in either direction. Far more than one would need.
I am using the 8 ohm tap on my RM10. The room is made with the heavy right curtain in the pic, into an irregular 20 x 22 feet (6 x 7 meters). Speakers are 7 feet from the front wall. I am able to do an easy 90 db at the chair + peaks with the RM10 and nearfield sub. I listen around a 80 - 85 average db average. |
- So what is a brand new "Old Stock" base ET2 from 1985 worth ? Here is an original from 1985 New Old Stock Seeing the year 1985 in the ad I got curious. So using an online inflation calculator. It's original new price of $850 in 1985; is just under $1900 US dollars today. He is taking offers :^) If anyone here is one of the ad watchers - good luck Not affiliated with the ad. |
