Hi Guys -what a month July was. First half of summer over. Been away.... up north (for me), listening to mostly natural wild sounds (music) amplified by the lake. Imagine hearing people have a normal conversation 1 kilometer away from you. The magic of sound carrying on a still lake surrounded by hills, cliffs, mountains . This gives new meaning to the dog barking on Rogers Waters - Amused to Death album. Back for a few days then the second half starts for me. The good lord willing. Some comments from some of the posts here. Re: Lead discussions. IMO Any experienced audiophile that can still hear, should be able to determine the benefits and limitations of using lead or other materials in their own systems. With that, lead is a banned substance in many countries including Canada. The ET2 manual carries this warning. The lead counterweights used in the tonearm can be handled infrequently without cause for concern. Prolonged handling of lead and exposure to skin should be accompanied by good personal hygiene procedures. Wash hands after handling. Do not allow children to handle to ingest these weights. If one is swallowed by anyone induce vomiting and refer to a physician. 07-11-15: Geoffkait
Pierre of Mapleshade used to employ a lot of solid lead at CES and in his recording studio. However, after buying into the whole lead thing, including solid lead he has since recanted and no longer employs lead. Even my Arcici stand that employed lead bars sounded more open and natural with the lead bars removed. Geofffkait - welcome to the thread. Makes me wonder (a little) if the removal of lead becomes a business decision - increased Sales Potential for products to countries that ban lead. Just saying. This hobby is all about personal setup; always has been. My experiences have been I can make any material work to a certain level of satisfaction and live with it. Some materials however (in each of our individual setups) will work better and give you more "ROPE" for this crazed "hobby" of ours. BTW - For those unaware GeoffKait was "sort of" of responsible for my being banned from Audiogon by my wife during the late winter listening season. if interested in the soap opera like details follow this link. All is forgiven Geoff ... :^) ********************************************************************************** Slaw - Why is it that as Ct0517 pointed out recently that this site has had over 1 million hits, but IMO, there are really very few responders? This, to me, is very troubling. I've tried to change this but with my socials skills very lacking, I doubt if I helped at all. Slaw, do you know how many different people are on this thread /have posted on it ? Some stats as of this morning 08 02 2015Slaw - It seems, in this context, a good argument can be made that this forum as it relates to this topic and the value we or the audio reviewer places on a particular recording or equipment is most likely a waste of time, unless we place innocuous terms/phrases such as... "this may be" or "you could hear this" or "you may have a different result" in reference to what we think others may find from our descriptions of our own findings within our own systems. Slaw - If we drill down one more level, all ET2 owners on this thread have a unique point of reference (or lack thereof). It happens to be the most tweak-able tonearm I have ever owned. None of our individual ET 2.0 ET 2.5 setups are identical. That makes things even more complicated .....doesn't it ? I think it really all boils down to people using tips from generous posters here; using them to their liking. People that post tips on this thread do so in an unselfish manner and not for profit. Just sharing info. They ask nothing in return. btw - I have received numerous pm's from folks (ET2 owners/non-owners) who enjoy the thread but are too shy to post or prefer not to. In regards to your comments on Frogman's audio projects; Frogman was kind enough to share a couple pics of his setup here. Can be seen in the 2014 Audiophile Wrap. In this post the first two pics are Frogman's setup.I took the liberty of nicknaming the pics the Mona Lisa of ET2 Tonearm wire setup. Frogman's pics show multiple projects.... imo. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ and... A friend sent me this interesting audiophile article link. I found it a good read, honest, mostly on the mark too.... So I share it with all of you here.Happy Listening (keyboard feels sticky) |
Frogman - Does that qualify as a "project"? :-) Never knew that this hobby involved "projects". Canadians pronounce it PRO-ject. Proooooooo Americans pronounce it PRA-ject. Praaaaaaaaa Can't tell you how many presentations I did in the US when the room would look at me kind of funny; and not just because of how I dressed. After a few (presentations) I just gave in and started saying PRA-ject....:^( Then the Canadian clients would get on me about it. My bad Frogman. Personal work baggage using the word project, coming from too many years doing project management. A project to me is any activity that has a start, but does come to an end. It's temporary. How many audiophile activities does this describe ? I see setting up ones over all music room and gear as a series of mini inter-related activities (projects). All working together toward a common goal - in this case making music for ourselves . I typed this out as I listened to your music link. thanks. It brought out in me some strong images and emotions of the many aspects of lake life. |
here is an ET2 Ebay ad that came into my mail. It is being sold by a seller for "Parts, Repair, Restoration"These ads can be a lot of fun and even like finding a diamond in the rough kind of thing sometimes; especially when the seller is not an audiophile and is not aware of what he is selling. You can learn much about the ET2 tonearm from these parts ads. And lets face it.... there is no successful user/owner of this arm that does not learn how it actually works. Anyone disagree ? If you are a plug and play, dealer "set me up please" kind of turntable guy. Look for another tonearm. Much about this tonearm can be learned from these types of ads because one is usually looking at valuable parts and not the whole thing as a package. All parts outside of the actual manifold/spindle/VTA ARC block are interchangeable. From Bruce' website. "ARC block - This part is only sold and installed if the manifold housing is returned to the factory. Each arc block was individually machined during original assembly and there are no set tolerance parts available. Cost to replace the arc block - $300.00" here is the pricing for reference of parts for those interested. Parts PricingSo the parts hanging off either spindle end, as well as the base plate, levers, handles cueing parts, could be bought as "outside" parts if still in good condition. Determining the VTA block's condition when buying used, was discussed in detail on this thread. Remember the Brothel Post ? Anyone interested in this should contact the seller to verify condition of the Rack's teeth. This particular AD does say the base plate has been damaged by a previous owner who did not know how to set it up properly. Also those dreaded banned Lead weights seem to be missing from this package. Happy Hunting |
Hi Styrk - welcome to the thread. In addition to Banquo's comments pls see mine below. I have a ET2 that Im trying to upgrade to a 2.5
but have problem running it on 7.5 psi. It was marked mpm Firstly pls note that a ET 2.5 and HPM (High Pressure Manifold) are two different separate things. There are low pressure 2.5's out there. Banquo has one of them. To upgrade to a 2.5 from a 2.0 (high or low pressure manifold) means sending your 2.0 manifold, its housing and 2.0 spindle to Bruce. He will return to you a 2.5 manifold and housing and 2.5 spindle. The VTA Block should not be separated from the housing. This way Bruce can ensure it works properly. The 2.5 spindle is a bigger diameter and the hole in the manifold housing made bigger to accommodate the larger manifold and spindle diameter. The larger 2.5 tube resonates at a lower frequency and a better design overall for low compliance cartridges. A better design can lead to more potential. But the 2.0 works with low compliance cartridges as well. Just requires more tweaking. Any way to clean out the hole think there can be a bit of oil in them. This have a NOS upgrade kit came in plastikk bag and was a bit greasy. Have clean it a bit with alcohol I have a feeling that is a bit clogged. What is the min working pressure for a mpm? If it is a NOS upgrade kit the capillaries should be clean ? See the maintenance cleaning procedures in the manual. You can start with isopropyl and a toothbrush. There should be no oil in there. There may be some grease on the exterior of the rings for a smooth fitting. Assuming MPM is as Banquo said from Bruce' note, a High Pressure Manifold ? "Banquo363 - The initials on the 2.5 manifold are actually HPM and it stands for high pressure manifold. This means the pressure range is between 5-10 PSI but it could be higher if the person who purchased it asked for one to be used with a shop compressor." I have said this before here. The best way IMO to find out what PSI your manifold was designed for by Bruce, if you bought a used one .... First clean it out and make sure the capillaries are not clogged. Make sure the pump/s is actually producing the expected PSI at the arm "NOT" at the pump. Then start raising the PSI till it works well. Go one to 2 psi above. Working well means all the way through but especially the last track when everything is level. Use gravity to level the Spindle. Does this make it clearer ? Ask any questions, we are here to help. We all started where you are now. Welcome to the fun...... Banquo363.
Last night I wanted to test the manifold to see whether it alone was the issue. In my case, when everything is level and vtf is at 0, the arm always races down towards the inner grooves. I have to tilt the counterweight side up to prevent this--and this is when some binding occurs. For the test, what I did was put the manifold into the housing 'backwards' to see what effect that would have. The spindle now raced towards the outer grooves. 8^0 Be interested in Bruce' reply to this one ..... |
Run away ET2 Spindle. Indicates a problem with leveling, wiring or manifold. Some options. Leveling - the ET2 spindle in the manifold is extremely slippery. Almost feels friction-less. No bubble level is accurate enough. Level with Gravity only. I use a Blue Tac pancake on the lead weights and make the armtube free float with VTF 0. Wiring - Push or Pull from the wiring as the spindle in manifold is very slippery. I have found where wire exits the armtube immediately down and over to your phono in a happy face loop is the least intrusive. Location where the wire connects at the opposite side is at the mid-point of arm spindle travel. Manifold - Couple of things to try. Take a draft leak detector pencil (bought at Home Depot for $5 dollars) and place near each end of the manifold. Is the air exiting creating similar flows or is one side more active? They should be the same. Remove the manifold and check the torque on the screws. Ensure they are torqued the same. Check for water deposits of minerals in and around the holes, screws. Clean it out. This pic was posted previously on this thread (from a friend) Before and After Manifold Cleaning- - |
09-02-15: Shfinne
The way I level is by using test record with blank track.
I can't see how to setup correctly with out one. Hi Styrk So you are using one of these products ? Test Record I note that one of the reviewers said his test record had an offset center hole. On a test record....:^( Just saying. Using a test record implies that you are setting up with the Et2 wiring as part of the arm and connected as you need to listen to test tones. If you are happy with the results that's great, enjoy the music. But if you have more Rope for the Hangman in this crazy Audio Hobby of ours, I feel you can do much better with the ET2. If you really want to hear what this out of the box unique tonearm can do; you need to IMO use an out of the box method of setup and leveling. I have said this before. I am suggesting you set the ET2 up and level without the wiring. Pull the wiring from the tonearm initially and add it later. The ET2 provides for this capability unlike any other tonearm I am aware of, Here is the problem and/or limitation from my experiences. The ET2 wiring loom can also be called the ET2's Achilles heel. Many have pulled out their hair trying to set it up with the wiring as part of the initial setup. This is after all the way it is done in the manual. here's the problem. The wiring affects the tonearm far more than any other tonearm I have owned. A bad wire arrangement can ruin an otherwise very good mechanical set up due to the push/ pull on the sensitive friction-less air bearing. The wiring will cause you to throw out your leveling. To prove this, set up your wiring after like I suggest, and see what happens. Schubert used a word earlier that I really like .......Fiddle. Fiddle is what I used to do in the early days trying to the get the wiring right, especially with different tables; some with flat plinths, others with a platter and armboard that were joined by a plinth but not on the same plane. We can call this PITA wiring on the ET2 bad design ? but is it ? You see the the design also provides for having the ability to to reach very high musical sonics due to the ease, in adding in, a modded wire arrangement.... after you have set up your arm without the wiring. Yes without the wiring. I realize most probably set up the ET2 with the wiring already part of the arm. Still if a newer owner is setting up the ET 2 & 2.5 with the wiring attached to it, you could end up Fiddling - alot. You could pull out a lot of hair and succumb to the rumors that this is hardest arm to setup. Assuming a clean functioning ET2, this is THE reason IMO for those that fail to set one up satisfactorily. Their Wiring Arrangement. I am willing to put money on this one. This method of adding in the wire after allows you to make a wire arrangement that is best for your specific table and the least intrusive on the overall setup. Also FWIW and IMO .. the wiring set up discussed in the manual is just average at best, and was designed to work with VPI , SOTA, other tables in order to sell more tables. If Bruce is partnered with Harry at VPI as he was (the original TNT was designed for the ET2 ) then you want a standard basic wire setup. This was a very average set up at best. C'mon ..wire going down through the plinth to a junction box ? So give it a try. What's to lose ? Remove the wiring, and set up your ET2 as best as possible naked - sans wiring. Once complete with the mechanical setup and leveling add in the wiring. A small last but important point if you attempt this... For now you will be adding the wiring outside the armtube, and make sure you make no further adjustments to the vertical leveling screws. Only make adjustments to the wiring arrangement itself. Once you have made the best wiring arrangement after the armtube, you can tuck the lead part of the wires into the armtube if aesthetics are that important to you. You can also braid the wire along the armtube but keep single strands once it leaves the armtube. Braiding helps with interference (noise and hum), but it also causes binding of the tonearm wire. (this is dependent on the type of wire as well). This in fact is how my VPI JMW used to apply antiskate - with the braided wire going from the armtube to the junction box. The affect - push back - very evident with each twist. Then VPI went further and added another layer with a separate antiskate system altogether in addition to the wire. One becomes experienced enough with the wire arrangement through personal practice. This can't be learned on the internet. Happy Leveling |
Analogluvr
I believe we may be almost neighbours! I tried to email you but it bounced back. Hi Analogluvr I'm about an hour north of the GTA; but in summer about 3 hours north. You can reach me at bcpguy(at)bell(dot)net. Summer activities are coming to a close. Cooler nights and sun coming down much earlier. Its crazy when fall starts the way I just slip into this madness of a hobby without even seeming to miss a beat. For those keeping score the modded Music Reference RM9 amp is still powering the main speakers. No rush to insert the monster Krell to compare. Just enjoying the music when I have been home - like now :^) Mister Frogman I always enjoy reading your personal accounts as a musician; especially those words that talk to the interfacing that is needed to make musicians gel together. Cheers |
Hi Pegasus Pegasus
I use twisted thin Audio Consulting silver wires outside of the arm, fixed via two or three small double sided foam ahesive pads. The wires go in a light curve, with a vertical radius, L/R some cms separated, to 7cm behind the arm tube, in the middle of the travel path. I assume Ct0517 will tell me that my VTA mechanism has a problem - but it was never overtightened or any thing like that, it has equal spacing around and moderate to low "clamp". Per my comments to Styrk - Are you setting up the wiring after you have done the initial setup and level of the actual tonearm ? If not your wiring may be affecting the leveling as the air bearing spindle is so sensitive. There would therefore be an effect, even if a small one, on the VTA block alignment if you level with the wiring. VTA issues - Some of us notice this, other don't and it is based IMO on the stylus and how much detail it churns up. If the cartridge is musical but not overly detailed, one may never need to touch the VTA and not notice anything. Other than that, without seeing it, it is hard to discuss. I would however also inspect the base and 3 leveling screws to ensure there is no movement whatsoever. Maybe things got moved and something came loose with the main bolt. (especially into wood) This last comment is really for other newer ET2 owners. It's obvious to me from your posts your attention to detail is excellent. . Also never seen a 1210 with a wood base. Last option I can think of being a factory defect Pegasus
Ie. with moderate to low compliance cartridges the counterweight decoupling introduces a new (sonic) compromise instead of solving a problem. But to really hear the advantage of a rigid counterweight, one has to do a bit more fiddling with the ET2 counterweight fixing than just using BluTak to bypass the spring (which I usually did).
For high compliance - I assume - it's ingenious. This makes sense as the ET2 was introduced when high compliance MM were in their heyday. For moderate to low compliance think of a Double and Triple leaf spring. This was discussed earlier in the thread. Have Bruce send you five loose leaf springs and two I beams. This will allow you to make up one Double and one Triple I Beam. They cost only a few dollars. I use a double leaf spring mainly. I consider using different leaf springs part of an advanced ET2 setup and will let you tune your setup better. NO Professional Reviewers ever got this far with setup. Well I should not say this right ? OK - Point me to a review if it happened and I will acknowledge it. Pegasus - I would be interested in knowing where you position the lead weights and how many on the I Beam. This would tell me more about your audio preferences than any other aspect of the ET2. Pegasus
BTW I use a pressurized air bottle (rental system in Switzerland) as air supply at the moment. ???? 8^0 |
the compressed air bottle is a 200 atmospheres 60 liter steel tank. It provides "air DC" (to my arm & head) :-) hah hah - I like your sense of humor Pegasus. Like wise when needed, I sneak some Arizona like air from my Timeter pump. It is after all located next to the treadmill. (But its on its own circuit - heh - heh) Did you really check for absolute levelness after changing the VTA position, finding *no* change in side balance?
The imprecision is shurely on a very low absolute level, but not low enough in my case. I found out the hard way, by ear that there was a problem. Firstly Pegasus if I put myself in your shoes based on this problem, if it is really bothering you there are three options that I can see. 1) As you have sensitive ears, try a properly set up double spring I Beam. As you know especially with heavier stiffer LOMC cartridges, the single leaf spring I beam can be taxed more and induces more horizontal movement with eccentric records. The stiffer double spring does not do as good a job of damping the spindle on eccentric records but is what you should be using with heavier lomc's. The manual does not discuss this. If there was an updated rewrite of it the single, double, triple spring I beams would be a chapter on their own - imo. To play records on an ET2 with a single leaf spring an eccentric record must not have a runout of more than 1/8 inch (from the manual) . The stiffer double spring would make this number a little less - imo. take note. 2) Send your ET2 to Bruce to check it out. He will tell you if it is within spec/tolerances for the year it was built. 3) Switch cartridges to one that doesn't reveal your particular issue to your ears. This is after all about enjoying the music right ? I can change VTA anytime and I again do a quick gravity test with the handy BlueTac Pancake which makes the arm free float. No movement at VTF 0, we are good. That is my test. I have these Blue Tac pancakes for whichever cartridge is on there. you start small, add a little on top till the arm floats like a teeter totter with two same weight people on it. Do you remember the uneasy feeling of being on a Teeter Totter as a child, with someone your same weight; and holding the teeter totter in a balance ? Remember if the other guy jumped off quick and you hit the ground hard ? The gravity test is no different, same principle. But the ET 2 has the ingenious holding cue arm for when you take the Blue Tac weight off the lead weights. I need to also qualify something and I have mentioned this before here. My ET 2.5 is a more recent build 4 or 5 years? not sure now - a custom build by Bruce and the manifold/spindle has tighter tolerances than my HP 2.0. Let me better explain this. With the air off sliding the spindle in and out of the manifold is much stiffer on the 2.5 than the older 2.0. My ET 2.0 is also a HPM (High Pressure Manifold) - but it will still play with only 7 or 8 psi. in fact it will play with over 30 psi and no air hissing is heard and the inlet air tube does not blow off. It is a custom build obviously and it was bought used. My newer 2.5 needs 19 psi no questions. So here we have another example of the way Bruce constructed and changed his tonearms differently either by the buyers request or just as time went on. We know for instance that Bruce went to the 2.5 to meet the demand of lower compliance MC's. that has been discussed here before. So how old is your ET2 ? |
09-09-15: Bdp24
The discussion of a musician's sense of time brings to mind a singer whose timing drives me nuts, and you hear him at many audio shows---Willie Nelson. I don't mind a singer having flexible or elastic phrasing (pulling ahead of or falling behind the pulse of the band), but he jumps so far far ahead it creates anxiety!
By the way, when you hear a recording in which the drummer (or entire rhythm section) seems to be dragging, it's not necessarily of his/their doing. In doing session work, I have found many singers to have trouble "waiting" for the beat coming towards them while over-dubbing vocals to previously recorded backing tracks, and end up "rushing". Don't blame the drummer! Bdp24 - welcome to the thread. Could this be a case of some singer "beat deafness", or maybe "weed" influence ? This could be fun if you could point to some youtube examples that illustrate this? if I may ask; So as a drummer, has it been your personal experience that the "beat" guys get the best chicks ? Good to have another back row guy here to balance out things. :^) Cheers |
Excellent post Pegasus. Pegasus
I prefer to use less counterweights farther out on the I-beam. I prefer it because this way the center of gravity of the arm is more centered along the bearing, and because I have less lever forces on my semi-springed subchassis. It helps to float the arm better across it's way. Check mark. This is ET 2 - Base 101 SETUP from the manual and IMO has to be the most messed up part of the setup from Audiophiles and especially Professional Reviewers who DO NOT read the manual. (Arthur Salvatore are you reading this ?) I actually years ago; to see what would happen made up some extra lead weights and loaded up the arm counterweight HEAVY closest the spindle to see what would happen. You can't hurt anything but you may bottom out the spindle on the far side. At one point I seem to recall it sounding like a train coming through the room. Can you imagine Audiophiles loading up the I Beam and with a single leaf spring and playing an eccentric record. Like loading up the car vehicle for that vacation in the mountains! Hmmmm...Why doesn't my bass sound right ? BTW before I attempted the above, I consulted with Bruce and he told me - Go for it ! So I could learn. Well I learned. I now keep my weights on the tip of the pirate plank. Pegasus
It also reduces the maximum lateral mass, effective at "DC", below the resonance frequencies of arm/bearing and I-beam/counterweight. Reducing lateral mass equates to increases in the Vertical Mass = Best Bass in my room. Newer ET2'ers can think of the teeter totter again. If you weigh 50 units (cartridge) and your friend weighs 70 units (lead weights), your friend will need to sit closer to the middle to balance things. Teeter Totters are the MOST fun when both people are able to sit on the end seats. The changing variable with the ET2 is the cartridge. As Pegasus indicated position as few lead weights as possible toward the highest number on the I Beam furthest out. If you find you are just missing the end and need to bring on more weight further in - change your cartridge screws. The weight distribution on the I Beam is that important to my hearing. ***************************************** Friends, unfortunately the days of cheap Timeters (make first bid - you win and pay $200 shipping) seem to be over. Timeter PumpMe thinks Ebay seller Macemedical has discovered this thread :^( |
So is that guy in the video on anything Frogman ...or maybe his pants too tight for the family jewels ? Chick Magnet ?? :^( Not.... I am getting a lot of mileage out of Dorothy ... don't you think ? SLAW
Ct0517: Regarding Timeter pumps.....with all due respect to Ct0517, the over-riding issue with Timeter has been that they "farm" out their products to sub-contractors, IE: wholesalers. This, in of itself is a major issue. So, in order to get a part or to try and talk with a human,... this takes a whole lot of patience and time. Additionally, you'll have to deal with the (sub-contractors, wholesalers)... (a Major Pain In The Ass) x 10!
(My personal experience had me making a claim on my credit card against the sub-contractor/wholesaler). Sorry things did not work out for u Slaw. At least it was with a $100- 200 bought used pump ? I mean it could have been worse. I don't know. How about an expensive record cleaning machine ? As always use discretion to ensure the condition is good. Buy from a trusted seller. The Aridyne Timeter Line work great on the ET 2 delivering Arizona like air. Timeter is part of the Allied Healthcare group. To talk with a live person about parts and support just call them direct. Allied Healthcare1720 Sublette Avenue St. Louis, MO 63110 314-771-2400 800-444-3954 They are very generous with their time. Have a look at the one on the left.A'gon'er Banquo363 owns that beast. |
Frogman
Personally, I like a little mileage :-) I also have no problem with a little mileage...as long as properly maintained, .....and with records. :^) |
The woman in Frogman's link is unique and special. It's obvious to me that she knows how to handle a record. After all do you want your expensive albums to really end up like this?Probably a fun night..but I think you will hate yourself in the morning. Seriously now, is there a finer sight than a woman that knows how to properly handle a record ? This is very important as it also means she will be able to handle something else really well too. :^) I of course refer to sensitive Audiophile feelings and fragile ego's. What were "you" thinking? |
Fall is in the air. Felt like shopping this morning. Here are Four opportunities Gents and (Ladies) First one in the US. Damn that US dollar. A Base ET2 with the HPM (manifold) version (from the description). Includes damping trough You can tell it is a base ET2 and not the ET 2.5 by the overlapping (over the spindle) counterweight cap. The parts look clean, clean, clean .... Comes with extra leaf spring I Beams. But they appear to be all singles. Those on the thread that have possibly been confused by our discussion of this advanced setup - see the pics in the ad. *************************** Second One - ITALY ET 2.0 that was upgraded to an 2.5 (according to the seller in the ad) Google translation is also my friend :^) Not sure if it is a HPM model. Ask the seller. *************************** Third Opportunity - USA A Base ET2 - includes damping trough. Part of an elaborate setup. Here the pump has more value than the arm to the seller. (I like his speakers which can be seen - just saying) *************************** Fourth Opportunity - GREECEThis fellow has already had 9 offers according to the ad. A Base ET2 with High Pressure manifold and includes damping trough. Have a look at the manifold. It has a Green bubble level on it. You CANNOT do the final set up of the arm this way. (This will not take into account the wire influence) Just saying....:^) Happy Hunting & (not affiliated with any of the ads) |
Frogman - With the ET2 the ground noise was completely unacceptable. Of course, I tried every conceivable "fix" to no avail. Still, when I listened through the noise, the Decca magic was there. I did not hear (as one might expect) tracking issues any worse than with the other arms; except in very demanding orchestral passages.
.....All this was before I went direct to preamp with continuous run of tonearm wire. Now, with the continuous run and naked wire the noise is horrible and even worse. Yes...but once one has **successfully** run naked through the woods with the bears. There is never going back to wearing clothes. :^) I found that dealing with interference a lot like the James Bond movies; you know where he is trying to lift the diamond from the vault - while keeping from being burned/destroyed by the laser beams. The laser beams represent this interference. ** With the stylus on the still record (not moving) unmute and slowly raise volume. 4 strands of phono wire behind the gear rack. Move the first wire strand a little this way - oh the noise! - a little this way - noise gone. A small quick dab of blue tac to keep it in place. Next strand please. 3 more times..... The success of these James Bond maneuvers are highly dependent on having good access to the back of your gear. If your set up is one that to accomplish the above would require you to become a temporary contortionist ? Forget-about-it .....Running naked through the woods I mean... Stick to shielded cables and a more closed in sound. fwiw It was impossible for me to set up my pivot arms in this fashion as the wiring played havoc with the pivot arm tubes action (wanting to race to the spindle + antiskating) I believe the ET2's big advantage (even over other linear trackers) is the Freedom it gives you (lots of rope for the Audio Hangman) to experiment with wiring. It doesn't need the wiring for damping like others. But then if its operation is not well understood - the wiring also becomes the main reason for its downfall - Achilles Heel. 10-26-15: Pegasus
...... The wiring is an issue for sure, but the EM-field situation is actually the cause, and the noise is the symptom. And the ET2 / wiring / Decca system seems to be very sensitive. Detecting emi with an am radio. Found this to be a really good primer on Ground Noise, EMI or RF - for those unaware. Ground Noise or RF 10-26-15: Bdp24
The Londons made since they have had four pins are better in numerous ways than the older three pin versions. Not only less noise, but different stylus profiles, improved tracking, tighter assembly standards, etc. There are now three different models, the main difference between them being the design and construction of the cartridge body housing, the moving parts being very similar. Thanks for this info Bdp24. Think I may have have found my next cartridge, if when I decide / need to acquire a new cartridge one day. |
Pegasus - The power supply is one of the places where rectification "happens" (yes, it does), Rectification is a really good word - ET2 thread readers Quiz Question :^) What is the best meaning of rectification for this audio thread ? a. the act of offering an improvement to replace a mistake; setting right b. the conversion of alternating current to direct current c. the process of refinement or purification of a substance by distillation d. determination of the length of a curve; finding a straight line equal in length to a given curve Pegasus - Regarding RF: It was only a problem with one phono stage, that might have some issue in the power supply (while still sounding very impressive). Some thoughts with my coffee (black) :^) Interesting - when I think power supply I think Transformers - Toroidal and EI - This is the one of the big secrets IMO , well, as well as not living next door to a neighbor running an underground radio station; to setting up unshielded phono wires with no noise/hum. How about looking at the perspective of the phono stage. Which is better ? Toroidal transformer. Major advantage is that they do not radiate much magnetic field. James Bond prefers this type of transformer. :^) EI transformer. Radiate a significant magnetic field from the exposed windings. Low level phono audio signals and gain stages prior to the output stage of amplifiers are small enough, I think, in strength, that if they pass through a decent sized magnetic field, will cause hum in what you hear out of the speaker. What about amplifiers. Should we choose Toroidal transformer or EI power transformers in amps, preamps, phono stages ? My amplifiers are always quite a distance from the preamp/phono stage. I have seen setups where audiophiles cram everything into one rack or closed in space. So what type of transformer is used in your Amplifier ? Does it use an EI transformers ? Is it anywhere near your phono stage ? Here is a fun video that was shown on the Discovery Channel. Making McIntosh Tube AmpWatch how they make the transformers starting at the 2:00 minute mark . Do you think you will be able to use unshielded wires if this amplifier is placed near your phono stage setup ? James Bond you have your work cut out for you. I think maybe we will need to bring back Sean Connery for this effort ? btw - myself, I am not feeling good about how they make the transformers and also in this video toward the end; how they join the inside guts to the outside jacks. By solder on a circuit board ? Another discussion ! No more coffee for me ..... |
Hi BH80231 – you can’t be late for this ET2 party. Its been going on for over 20 years… This tonearm has stood the test of time – like Dertonarm likes to say
Frogman – I think a lot of people would love to see your setup. My email is bcpguy@bell.net
BH - I tend to move gear around including preamps so for now I need a portable sturdy solution. Soldering is not my forte, I can do it if need be but not like a professional. I am absolutely thrilled with that wiring loom, the creation of Gene at Take Five Audio. It was made for me. It can be reproduced by him and others I’m sure. I have no background hum at all - fingers crossed. Those WBT nextgen connectors – expensive but really nice.
Will post more about the damping later… Dover turned me on to this one on this thread – Dover are you out there ? |
Hi Mark
Welcome to the thread.
Yes a few NOS 420 str do exist. Many of the folks on the MM thread that Frogman referenced, own 20+ cartridges and are on a bit of a roller coaster ride with them. In order to purchase more they need to sell others. I agree also with Frogman to put a wanted post on the MM thread. Somebody that is ready to part with one will respond with a NOS or slightly used one.
My first ET2 came on a VPI HW19 IV and the original pump had a weak diaphragm down about ½ psi. It was enough of a problem to not allow it to complete the last track of lps. That plus the ET2 had been tightened up to much. I took the arm apart and let the parts go to their natural shape. Then I reassembled it using firm but not really tight pressure. The pump – well that area became a bit of slippery slope for me. I went through multiple upgrades, each time the music became bigger and sweeter.
I was reading recently on AS’s site that an ET2 owner has removed all of the mounting / adjusting hardware and linkages, and bolted the manifold directly to the armboard of his plinth.
Cheers Chris |
Hi Nikola – thanks for making my morning coffee interesting. We all have our sonic preferences in this hobby. I have to confess I am a bass guy. It is important to me. We all know bass will make you understand how important the room is, both from a sonics perspective as well as not irritating your wife/family, neighbors. The technique I use for bass tuning is very simple. I have Quad 57 my midrange reference in one room. Most of the music is in the midrange. The 801’s are in an adjacent room. I tune their bass until I hear everything that is coming from the Quads midrange. The above arrangement requires a larger room split into two pieces. fwiw and just my opinion - Strategic damping plates are important but a room that has allowed for bass seepage is far more important and effective for bass control at higher spl’s. This however requires a carefully developed understanding with the above mentioned wife/family and neighbors. I think there should also be a separate category for the audiogon forums called Rooms setup / Treatment or something like that. Audigon are you listening. If you can’t make your own panels, get the commercial ones now before they become truly mainstream one day and $50 panels become $500 or $5000 with high end. Sibilance can also be resolved with room tuning. We listen to our rooms. Sorry to digress.. Hi Dover et al Honestly this 420 can be a real PITA on a pivot arm. Its reputation is justified. I think only Henry and Griffiths found some nirvana with it after much tribulation on the MM thread. There could be others. This speaks volumes IMO to their determination. I have listened to it on a ET2 ET2.5 and pivot arms. Two things. One real and one not-real (virtual). First - The 420str is a real physical cartridge. You can touch it and you can feel it. You even bite into it. Here she is the 420 with her two sisters called 412 and 415 Other than their obvious color differences the other differences seem to be in the shoes the sisters are wearing. I asked a question a while back on the MM thread because I thought – there are many cartridge “experts” here. I am not a cartridge expert. They will answer my question. No one answered the question. I can’t remember the exact words I used - something like this. "Looking at the picture how would the very different shape/design of the 420 cantilever/stylus affect the sound and setup requirements over her sisters?" Since asking that question I have heard the 412 and 420 on an ET2 – Unlike the 412 I found the 420 very linear (sic) in the bass, mid and HF’s. To me the two sisters of the 420 based on their shoes, really do look like sisters themselves – but the 420 is like the odd child, even though it is the top of the line model. Is this starting to sound a little like Cinderella yet? Now the second part. This is the part that is not real (virtual). Our hobby is full of gear. All of us piece together a bunch of gear to produce an imaginary state in our rooms. A state that we cannot really see, touch, or smell, but we can hear and feel. I have had the 420 cartridge on my FR64s and DV505. I eventually after much work got it to sound ok - good – but only HIFI good. I wasn’t able to get into the music.... . involving me, like the ET2. The presentation and soundstage of this 420 cartridge on the ET2, is like you're reading a different book, compared to the pivot arms in my room. Sometimes the shoes just fit? After some effort the shoes seemed to fit at first with the pivot arms too – but after some time blisters became evident. So personally would not bother with the 420 on a pivot arm again. Life is too short. Thank you Nikola for the inspiration in your last few posts. I have now added Cinderella to my virtual page. She joins Winnie the Pooh and Goldilocks. What a fun hobby :^) |
Hi David - please tell us what moderately priced TT means -budget range ? Does it have to be brand new ? As I look at my naked TNT II without tonerarm I can see the one bolt that secures the ET2. The bolt is located about 2 5/8 inches from the nearest part of the platter and one inch above the spindle. Draw a horizontal line one inch above the spindle. a vertical line 2 5/8 inches beside platter. Where they join is the spot approximately just to give you an idea. It can be mounted anywhere "around" the platter as you only need a straight line to make it work. It is a universal mount design only the one threaded bolt needs to be drilled unless you plan on running wires and the air tube through a plinth as well. You can get info by going to the Eminent Technology website. Go to Support, Manuals ET2 Manual Part 2 - See Pages 62-63 or The manual can also be downloaded from Vinyl Engine ET-2 ManualLet us know if any questions. Cheers Chris |
Hi Dover – Can you tell us more about this tuning of the ET2 leaf spring by torque ? on the compliance thread. Looks interesting. Frogman have u or others tried this ? Linear Tracking Arms Compliance Thread
01-16-12: Dover
Atmasphere, when I used an ET2 many years ago these issues were ameliorated by
Using as light a counterweight as possible mounted on a horizontal leaf spring. By tuning the leaf spring through loosening the clamp you could reduce the initial horizontal effective mass when eccentric records generate side force.
The other trick I used was to place a small magnet under the horizontal bearing tube ( not touching it ). This effectively provides horizontal dampening far superior to using a fluid trough. It was so effective that the volume of the preamplifier had to be reduced - very surprising.
Dover (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
Dover how did u attach the magnet to the ET2? I'd email u for a pic but can't yet. Cheers |
Oilmanmojo, Daniel thanks for chiming in here with your experiences. Daniel – I modified mine quite a lot and tweaked it to what I think are the limits of it's design. I already posted the thread link to your table from 1993. Do you happen to have the picture with the ET-2 on it :^) by chance. Some eye candy for us. Can you at least tell us if you replaced the I-Beam and what brand of wire you preferred. Frogman – I was not aware of multiple I-beams and those mods with the springs. My ET-2 arms were both bought used and came with just one I Beam each. One of them was a high pressure manifold. The other one I sent to Bruce to replace to the high pressure one. Cheers Chris |
HAVE A LOOK AT THISHi Apbiii – I would much rather be where you are in S. Cal. – it is 3 degrees Celsius here right now about 37 degrees F. :^( In those previous links see Detonearm’s comments in the threads. In the second link is the turntable with air supply that was running an Air Tangent and ET2. A picture is worth a thousand words. If there is anyone anywhere that has a picture of their setup they want to share but can't post for whatever reason - please send me an email. I have no problem creating a special ET2 section in my virtual system page so others can see your setup. I will keep it anonymous. Cheers |
Hi Frogman – looking forward to hearing more about the project, and hopefully one day sending you my 412 “corpus” to do the transformation. :^)
My current 420 has pin sized blue tack dots making it a little more rigid. It helped
My next step was to crazy glue it like my Empire 4000 diii Gold.
Glad you reminded us. I will hold off.
Note: our travelling 420 has been crazy glued already by the previous owner that donated it. Not sure if he knew the role it would end up in. He is not an ET2 owner – yet. Hope he chimes in here one day anyway. |
Apbii – You can see what I did to my TNT in my virtual system. I used a pneumatic suspension under the pillars - AT616’s. I am talking about speed stability. I personally was not aware of how much wavering there was until I heard different tables next to one another in my room in direct comparison. That made it obvious. Two ET2 arms / same cartridge. Two different tables at a time. Recommend u take half an hour sometime and read through this. Speed StabilityA little more about the ET2 High Pressure PSI factors as I was thinking about this. Opinions ? The ET2 and ET 2.5 high pressure manifolds with the spindles have been already tested by a number of people including Bruce and they are stable to 20 psi. If you are hitting plateaus at 15 – 16 -17 psi with the music there has to be something out – or someone explain to me how this can be based on the above statement. I am confused about this. Some factors to consider. 1)It could be the arms manifold/ports/spindle. Clogged or blocked like a persons arteries when they get older. They are easily cleaned (I mean the ET2 not the actual person :^) – see the manual. Some over tighten as Frogman indicated this will warp parts of the arm. Not good. The good thing is you can loosen them up and they should go to form again if they have not been damaged. Many tighten down the bolts on either sides of the arm pillar/post to tight. I did this with my first ET2 arm years ago. 2) Air Supply system. Water/different temperatures/ quality of pressure. 3) Turntable affected by Structure Feedback – most likely and look to this first. See my page for my sound pressure findings. It was a revelation to me. If you think you are ok because your rack is on the concrete basement of your house - think again. Concrete slabs are full of air pockets. YMMV Any other reasons why the arm would not work and sound fabulous out to 19-20 psi ? I am really looking forward to our cartridge discussions with the ET2.0 and ET 2.5 arms. Will let someone else start this off. Cheers |
For $15 bucks I am not going to mess around with this - I just ordered a double spring I Beam from Bruce. I warned him to be ready to possibly make a few. :^)
I told Bruce about this thread but he is too busy.
Buying these arms used:
Based on my experience the problem we have here is that when people buy these arms "used" very rarely I think do the arms come in their boxes due to their age and parts go missing. I have bought three of them in total and each time something was missing. I never got 2 I-Beams in three purchases.
Frogman – words describing the music are not my strong point. But I can tell you if it sounds good , better or best to me. So yes “semantics”
You said “Although, the highs are, as I said, better integrated and less "splashy". Perhaps this is what you hear as dampened.” - EXACTLY thank you.
If the sound is less detailed – not as much information I tend use the word “thick” to describe it – which to me is like fog or things not being clear.
Dover said in his post – “I have found any sort of dampening other than the magnet described slugs the sound.”
Looking forward to hearing about this magnet Dover. |
ET2 Damping TroughHi Frogman/Slaw/others – what type of fluid are you using for damping now after all these years ? Have you changed from the ET supplied fluid. Slaw – you said “The sound has opened up quite a bit and still seems to have the dynamics, fast transient response, and real bass weight (not bloated)” Without the trough in place I noticed similar results / just a tad brighter. I have not re installed the damping trough yet. Weights are to the very end. I added one thin ET2 lead weight last night which brought the weight assembly of the 1.1 gram cartridge to number 5 on the scale. The benefits remained with a little more bottom end and it seemed to help with the highs as well in my system. But I need another listening session to be sure. Call me crazy - I believe the mood you are in when you start listening to your system affects what you hear - the body has blockers. This is just a gut feel obviously. Listening sessions over multiple days usually ensures me what I am hearing is in fact what it is to me in my room. FWIW – the same words here describing the sound we are hearing is how I would describe the sound improvement I heard when I replaced the soft VPI rubber belts with thread except it was multiplied. Cheers |
Can you visually inspect an ET 2 manifold to determine what PSI its set up for ?
Chris,
The manifolds look the same, there were no exterior markings. You would need a pressure and flow gauge to determine the manifold type. Thanks
brucet
On 1/17/2012 9:49 PM, wrote:
Hi Bruce
A question from an owner that bought an ET2 used.
other than hooking it up to a pump to see what it can handle -
Is it possible to visually inspect a manifold to determine what pressure it's set up for ?
Can the differences be seen - Are there specs for the different PSI's ?
thank u - Chris
Full Disclaimer – I am not a dealer, distributor, or manufacturer of this ET2 tonearm. I am just a user and a fan. I started this thread looking for an exchange of information between ET2 owners new, experienced and soon to be, with the objective that we can all improve our ET2 setups through these discussions. |
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1200430667&openflup&7787&4#7787Guys - I have tried to locate 420str's for our comparative listening. I feel if we are using the same cartridge this will be more valuable. This 420str cartridge is a great candidate for this as it is affordable and great sounding -when setup properly. I have had a couple of responses already. It is my intent to just be a go between (seller and yourself) to make this happen if u are if interested. I will insist on paypal as well. This way there will be no double paypal and shipping charges. If you are interested in a 420 str. Please let me know. bcpguy(@)bell(.)net remove parentheses when replying DG thanks for reminding me they were about 80 euros including shipping. |
APbiii - here’s some interesting data on resonances from Reed. I am sure Bruce probably has files and files of tests as well. >Resonance Testing Some more of their research. Magnetic Damping - and Antiskating I find it very interesting that pivot arm manufacturers are openly discussing the "possibility" of mechanical noises caused by regular antiskate in pivot arms. In Reed's owns words. "This model features magnetic antiskating technology which eliminates the possible noises brought up by the traditional mechanical antiskating." Magnetic Antiskating & DampingSince no one has spoke up about the ET2 magnet yet - I will say I have left it on. I guess we need to experiment with how big it can be and not effect things. My magnet is placed on the pedestal where the air bearing spindle exits. My wires now exit the arm tube and go straight down away from the Spindle. I would post a pic but I am not able to yet. Cheers |
Again, issues of ultimate technical performance aside (tracking), in my system with certain cartridges one spring is obviously preferable to the others, otherwise the sound can be either too lean (lower compliance spring), or too full, even bloated and diffuse (higher compliance spring). Having said that, I seldom use the single spring anymore since the improved detail retrieval and refinement that I generally hear with the double and triple springs are difficult to give up; and when the system starts to move in the direction of too lean a sound as a result of the lower compliance, I find that I can make adjustments elsewhere (VTA, slightly higher VTF, a different tube, etc.) and retain the benefits. Frogman – What a profound post. Your experience with this ET2 tonearm, different cartridges and different I Beams just oozing out. Well maybe oozing is not the right word. As a guideline then and remembering all our systems/rooms are different so we need to experiment and the reason we cannot call it a "silver bullet". Summarizing this makes it clearer for me. 2 or more leaf springs - heads more toward a leaner sound due to lower compliance – more detail and refinement. One leaf spring – best tracking - but sound can become too full, even bloated and diffuse due to the higher compliance of just one spring. What I am hearing going from the single to double spring supports this. Cheers |
Apbiii - exactly. We are comparing apples to apples - well almost.
What is the compliance of the cartridge u r using and where on the scale (what number) are your weights sitting at ? Mine are on the very end of the the IBeam past the 6 and it is a high compliance cartridge.
From Frogmans earlier post as a guide.
2 or more leaf springs - heads more toward a leaner sound due to lower compliance – more detail and refinement.
One leaf spring – best tracking - but sound can become too full, even bloated and diffuse due to the higher compliance of just one spring.
This is what I am hearing going from a single to double leaf spring. Is this what u r hearing too?
Now the hard part for me.
It took me about 4 songs or – 20 minutes to find the right VTA in my system. The armtube when I look at it - seems to have a slightly negative VTA now - it was lowered. I am very close to the sweet spot stylus angle/groove with my records/system. Not finished. Bass returned but is now more refined/has real weight. |
Hi Frogman – that 420str is a very interesting cartridge.
“It is not a "beautiful" sounding cartridge. It is very direct sounding, with outstanding dynamic gradations, and fine sound staging.”
Yes I had a similar experience. In fact when I had it on the ET2 last year, if I can remember right it forced me to move by listening chair a few feet back from the nearfield position. Did you find the angle of mounting to the ET2 armtube odd ? not much clearance for the top two cartridge clips ? Which version I Beam are you using with it – single, double or your own wooden one ?
Bass is subjective like everything else in this hobby. Personally I don’t have any issues with bass on the ET2 setups. This has been verified for me with my Studer 807. The technique I use.
I start the tape and lp going – they are within a couple of seconds of each other. All I do is switch the input back and forth on the dial and can instantly hear the differences between the two mediums playing in my room. The ET2 does “really well” against the tape - in my room. I have my own personal thoughts on the LF “bump” provided by pivots. I also have some info of Bruce’s analysis on the testing he did of pivot arms some years back – if you are interested in it I can email it to u. |
The second example occurs at 2:51, also in Brecker's solo. One of the things that made Brecker's sound so distinct was the post-Coltrane technique of "splitting" a note. What is meant by that is that the player is able to play a note and make other notes sound at the same time; gives the sound of that note a very dramatic quality. The way it is accomplished is by (in this case) playing the high G on the tenor by fingering the G an octave below and sounding the harmonic one octave above. In the process, if the player has enough control over the instrument, a third note "E" can be heard; he is in effect playing a chord on a melody instrument.
When tonearm/cartridge settings are not correct, what should be heard as three distinct notes becomes simply distortion in the sound of the note. The closer I get to correct VTA and azimuth, the more distinct the three notes become. Frogman – your being a musician is obvious and gives you such an advantage when listening to LP’s. What a great post. Your turntable system is an extension of your instruments ? Look forward to more recommendations from others. I’d like to recommend Miles Davis KOB a very popular LP that many have and is great sounding. I am not ready to post any remarks on it yet... Anyone else ? |
Hi Acman3 (Danny) I don't know what direction you are wanting to go. I myself will go any direction (no biases here) as long as it provides the chills and goosebumps when listening. This hobby for me is a means to end and is much safer than - car racing ? - and the reason I’m sure my wife puts up with me. Welcome to the thread – thx for the lp recommendation. Hi Dover On the track titled "Five guys named Moe" there is a part where Moe is repeated 5 times. With the ET2 you can clearly hear each utterance and the position, starts front slightly right of centre and each "moe" is behind and to the left of each preceding one. Nice test – those 5 Moe’s go by really fast. I am going to try this one with my pivot arms. Slaw - the top two leads on my setup are crammed pretty tight on the ET2 with the 420 right now. DG – I think you could sell your shims as fast as you can make them here. |
Dover – I just now realized I may have put you in an awkward position asking for impressions on a general forum. My impatience in the interest of your findings. From your posts, you are in a rare position in this hobby with your product experience level . I have included my email in a recent post if you would like to share info that way or here for the others.
Now without having heard any of those TT’s in your list I can say, based on my own experiences.
This has been said already here but is worth repeating. The ET2 needs to be level with the platter and remain so. The air delivery and spindle must also be isolated from air turbulence, moisture and structure feedback. Introducing “any” TT that increases the risk of movement, vibrations, turbulence, structure feedback is asking for trouble and will be easily heard sonically in the ET2 as a problem. Whether as distortion, sibilance, or lack of HF LF extension, or if really bad not able to track. Any problem where the groove is not tracked properly.
Hence sprung turntables or TT’s with add on’s (pumps that need babysitting) - increase risk of movement with an ET2. Likewise any rigid table (being more prone to structure feedback on its own) introduces the possibility of structure feedback. Pump design (air turbulence). My first ET2 was on a sprung VPI HW19 IV and it was a PITA until the suspension was defeated. My SP10 set up is very easily affected by structure feedback. With that my Verdier has a pneumatic suspension but it is stiff enough that the arm is not affected. The turntable has stayed level since I have owned it. I’ve seen some very heavy arms mounted on this table so the ET2 is a piece of cake. As a point of interest to ET2 owners I have emailed with JC Verdier a number of times. As a Frenchman he could not recognize the ET2.5 in the pictures I sent him, but was impressed with what he saw of its construction.
Therefore looking at your list based on what I have said – I could probably study how the TT’s are made and come up with my own preferred top 6 list if I was shopping for a TT for my ET2 tonearm. You have however not given any details on the pump setup or whether it was a regular or HP ET2 model.
Cheers |
Cheers Nikola Your willingness to lend me your ET2 is moving but you ruined my argument 'against' Frogman. The reight response should be : nobody has the right to DEMAND anything without ,uh, some legal fundation. I realize that as you are a lawyer, you develop a script of dialogue (like a play), and if things go according to plan you run through the script as expected with a good result. But I have a confession to make. I am pretty good at ruining arguments as I have spent 25 years doing project management. I am a PmP. That’s not short for PIMP. I wish it was. That way I could make everyone happy. PM’ing does not follow logic all the time because the clients are not always logical, like the justice system. Now the business I am in also concentrates on preparing clients for a worst case scenario. So over the years these processes have become ingrained in me. My views definitely represent extreme ones as far as been careful and preplanning for sure. My family have made me aware of this a few times. No you don’t need to be a mechanical engineer with the ET2. This is really no different than bringing in any new appliance into the house "that actually works". All the instructions are the same for all of them. After you unpack, the manuals always start with similar language. "Read the installation and operating instructions first." Lets be honest here - how many actually do that ? Therein lies the problem. Offer stands open just for you – I will let Frogman and yourself get back to the lawyer stuff now. |
Dgarretson
I wonder if this is about adding a small and constant skating force to help propel the carriage toward the spindle in a more controlled manner. Similarly, when leveling the carriage, optimal set-up may call for a very slight tilt of the manifold toward the spindle to gain assistance from gravity. Well IMO both of these represent a bad compromise and bad design. As far as the ET2 is concerned I have read posts that relate to a slight tilt a few times here. Here is a more recent one from Tonywinsc http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1342120769&openflup&22&4#22From that post I had a buddy who used the ET2 linear arm on his VPI table. It took him a few years to figure it out, but I recall him telling me that he had to level his table a certain way- slightly downwards, I think and it would track perfectly. He also said that he had to keep the air bearing tube perfectly clean. It would sound grainy if the tube had any dust on it. This ET2 was setup on a tilt to help send it to the spindle. This is a result of not reading setup instructions. They also say men have a problem asking for directions too. So I guess Tony's friend never figured it out. When I raise my ET2 arm and let its cueing lever eccentric actually rest against the cueing eccentric. At 19 psi I can lightly blow against the cartridge and even with it at rest, and the friction involved with the lever at rest on the cueing eccentric, it will still traverse the entire platter. It does not need gravity. Hence the simplicity, beauty and elegance of the ET2 design to me. Platter leveling is done first with a bubble level the length of the patter itself. The arm itself is then balanced with extra blue tac on the weights and gravity as previously discussed here on the thread. Sometimes the bar can get set high in the first jump. |
Dover
Ct0517 - I would not run an ET downhill, but I get the overhang argument. Dover – oh I get it. But I will also admit I have never experimented with making the ET2 armtube go past or stop short of the target point. I did not feel a need to because of the design. I felt I would be compromising it. Add it to the audio bucket list. Pivot arms are different though – I have experimented because of the design and gone outside of protractor lines. I am in agreement with what Geoch said in my earlier post where I linked his contribution to an alignment thread. Dover
NOW HERE IS ANOTHER POSER to ponder :
With a pivoted arm we have an overhang. The pivot arm/stylus tip moves in an arc, which means that for every 1.8 seconds ( 1 rotation ) the stylus tip has actually moved slightly forward with each rotation.
Put another way if you put the stylus tip in the first groove, and draw a tangent to the spindle centre, then with each rotation the stylus tip will move further ahead from that tangent.
This means that to achieve the correct playback speed, with a pivoted arm, then the TT needs to speed up with each rotation. Well this IS very interesting. Again I have never considered this with my pivot arms. A changing variable with every rotation. Hmm…...Let me think about it.. Hopefully the pivot arm “devotees” here can chime in ? Dover I am starting to wonder how many more of these “NOW HERE IS ANOTHER POSER to ponder” posts you have lined up for us to consider ? |
I remember around 5 years back something happened to the evaporator in my pump. I didn’t know right away. What clued me in was checking the 2nd pressure gauge/regulator that is near the arm. It is also the backup system – remember I am in the business of disaster recovery planning. The bulb in this picture http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/i/f/1301961480.jpgHad filled halfway with water. I thought to myself WTF is going on here? What if all this water got into the capilliaries of the manifold? It turned out that the moisture exhaust tube in the pump – its outlet was dirty/blocked and it had backed up filled with water and was sending all moisture down the tube to the 2nd regulator/filter. A little CLR on the metal outlet fixed the problem. WARNING to New Owners and OLD. Do not buy a used ET2 from someone that has not been using a proper moisture filter. Unless your willing to spend an afternoon and do the simple cleaning procedure (documented in the manual) of scrubbing the capilliaries. I did this for fun with my first ET2 9 years ago. Its like giving your ET2 new lungs. Page 42. Pipe cleaner and isopropol. If you are having problems running your HP ET2 arm at a higher psi. Your capilliaries need to be cleaned. Look here first. Do the procedure. Frogman - A few more of these type of posts should be enough to scare away the poseurs from wanting this tonearm. Good thing Bruce did not use shiny silver and gold parts or we would have a real problem. |
“when changing cartridges eliminates any wear to the spindle or bearing “
Hi Ketchup.
You can’t put wear on the ET2 spindle or bearing. The spindle can only be damaged by driving over it with your car. Well - I am just joking here of course - but just trying to paint a picture of how indestructible the design is. I realize that moving the spindle back and forth in the manifold feels “very wrong” and “rough” without the pump. It feels like you are damaging something. But you are not hurting anything and actually helping it if you can believe it. You are actually encouraged to do this a little on new arms to help them settle in.
Now by tightening bolts too much you can make parts change shape. Loosening them up and letting the arm relax will fix it. My first ET2 was a little deformed this way from previous owners.
As an update.
I have been on the phone with Bruce. I am sending my 420str to him to listen to. I am hoping to get his impressions here – well if not first hand at least in the 3rd party.
I will be putting my MC back on this weekend after 110 hours no sibilance issues whatsoever with my 420 str. The moment of truth has arrived for me and this little cartridge.
Slaw - good to hear the 420 is sounding good. When you feel you have it sounding as best as possible if at all possible please remove the shim and try to finesse the wires to get the cartridge on without a shim. To compare. The arm tube is CF but the head of it is not. I just realized this the other day. Its a resonance hobby. Adding materials complicates things. I side on the minimalist approach and trying to get it right that way - fewer layers the better - just my opinion.
It would make for a great comparison if you are able to tell us the difference in sound it makes. FWIW - I tried a shim initially - one of those aluminum shims from a headshell on one of the pivot arms. It muddied the highs on my setup.
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Bruce Thigpen 420 STR Impressions. Chris,
These are my impressions.
This is an excellent cartridge. Mechanically it is a high compliance cartridge, much higher than most any modern moving coil.
There were no noise problems, the hum level was at the noise floor and it was quiet running straight in to an older SP-11. Tracking was very good to excellent. The design hints of the Goldring 900's of many years ago and the sound quality reminds me of the last Shure ultra 500, which I liked a lot. So its a bargain, to bad these are out of print.
With respect to use in the ET-2 or 2.5, the best wand to use would be the original aluminum arm wand with the thick coating or the carbon fiber wand. I actually prefer the ET-2 to the 2.5 with this cartridge.
Thanks very much for the loan Chris
-brucet Guys ( gals? ) Through my various emails bugging him :^( for his impressions (I received them this morning). I got a real sense that Bruce appreciated the downtime to listen to vinyl. IMO, the more we can do to draw folks like Bruce Thigpen back into vinyl; I feel is a good thing for vinyl and music in general. Whether you are an ET2 owner or not on this thread, a quick email thanking him for his impressions here is a start. Brucet (at) eminent-tech (dot) com |
The arm is ready to go out of the box and requires no additional "fitting" by moving the spindle by the customer. That would be a poor design. Kevin - Have you ever come across any analog product that did not require additional fitting or adjustment ? All conversations I have had with Bruce have pretty much been a reflection of what is in the manual already. For this subject see pages 39-40 for the answers . When I got back my 2nd ET2 arm as a 2.5 I can remember a couple of times the arm started skipping on me, like it was binding. The pump pressure seemed ok. Sliding the spindle up and down a couple of times without pressure seemed to help my setup. It never did it again. As far as good and poor designs are concerned. IMO – A worst case scenario with an ET2 tonearm is if someone has totally neglected this tonearm after 20 years and actually allowed buildup to occur on the spindle – Now you can take a knife to it and scrap it off, and then clean it with alcohol again. Read pages 39 – 40 in the manual. And bring it back to operating condition. This to me represents not a poor, good or great but brilliant design. The tonearm will never wear out – it’s a lifetime of use. In another case – take a person that loves their TT with a soft suspension that has microscopic movements. This person would say the ET2 is a bad design for this table. I would agree. So you can have good and bad designs for every application. If someone was praising an analog component as the "next best thing" "perfect design" - to me it can never be perfect because the medium is faulty. No two records are alike. I am amazed we can get good sound at all ? That’s probably what keeps me intrigued with it. The disbelief. When are you going to get your ET2 up and running again? |
412 versus 420 on a ET 2.0 HP with a triple leaf spring.
Initial impressions.
The numbers from the printed manual.
412 /// 420
20 – 35khz /// 20 -45khz - Freq response
30 db at 1 khz /// 33db at 1khz Channel Separation
27db at 10khz /// 29db at 10khz
3.5 mv at 1 khz /// 3.2mV at 1khz Output voltage
STR /// Perfect STR Stylus
24 x 10(-6) /// 42 x 10(-6) Compliance
1.3 – 2.1g /// 1.0 – 2.0 Tracking Force
Compared to the Grey 420 the stoplight 412 looks like a model plane fighter engine/machine gun that is actually firing. Guaranteed to attract a little toddler if nearby for those with little kids around.
Again sounds pretty ridiculous for the price. How much do you guys think these things actually cost to make anyway? I am curious.
IMO - Its lacking that natural gusto aggressiveness and extension that its bigger brother the 420 has, that is also present on master tape dubs. Much more polite sounding especially in the very low bass – much like the Empire 4000 DIII.
Hardly any hours but it has too much happening (emphasis) in the midrange and upper bass for me to get comfortable with it on my modded Quad 57’s. Too much of good thing ? Very early but I am pulling up anchor and will try it somewhere else later.
A question for the cartridge experts. I would appreciate your expertise here.
What is the difference between STR and Perfect STR.
Specifically - How much bearing does this STR vs Perfect STR have on precise alignment and geometry of a tonearm ? I am curious.
My understanding is that the 420 has a very small footprint. Does that mean it requires more precision in alignment. I say this from my personal experience in trying to get it right on a couple of pivot arms previous to the ET2. |
Hi Danny Pictures of the Acutex 4 series can be seen here. Go down about 2/3 of the way down. http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=6675.45412 and 415 look like kissing cousins. 420 is very different. I wasn’t clear in my last post. The 412 has lots of strong bass. The issue was it was over emphasized bass above 40 hz unlike the 420 which is more linear (sic) in my room on the ET2. This is based on running the 15 IPS tape and LP together, the lp about 5 seconds behind, and switching between the two on the fly. Note that I was clear that this was a triple, not double leaf spring setup on an high pressure ET2 not a ET 2.5. ET 2.0 spindle resonates at a slighter higher HZ than the larger 2.5 which in my case now currently has the double leaf spring on it and my MC once more. The single leaf spring is just lying around these days. I should make up some more as they cost only $15 each. You can see the leaf spring hear. For a double, glue two together. Triple etc…. http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/i/f/1335035482.jpgWe have Frogman to thank for this one. We are able to match the cartridge compliance at one end (cartridge) to the other end (counterweight) and use whichever leaf spring works best in our own systems. Think of it as two of almost same weight persons (cartridge end heavier) on an elongated teeter totter with springs on their bums. As an update - yesterday afternoon one 420str was air lifted, scheduled to arrive this week at its destination. Tallahassee, Florida. |
Hi Henry – welcome to the thread. I will reply to your question with my actual DD and idler impressions later. Need to catch up with the holiday weekend that was anything but a holiday with two soon to be 18 years olds packed up and sent away to college. Now I wait for their phone calls. Damn... now I need to change their phone plans before I get dinged with huge bills. :^( Slaw I am in total agreement concerning the sonic gains you must be getting in having the armboard separate from the plinth. Correction – replace the word plinth with platter, motor, bearing The word plinth is one of those bad words – it has been corrupted by analog audiophiles - IMO. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlinthPlinth to me means common platform. All my TT’s have a plinth. How the tonearm, motor, and platter, bearing connect to this common platform varies. There are good designs and bad designs. I have personally found that a well executed- bad design, can out perform a badly executed - good design. DG - need to look at that tonearm some more. living /breathing egg beater ? |
Slaw
The plinth in my TT is 'the' platform you speak of. The armboard is connected to this 'plinth', (and becomes part of it) that supports the platter and bearing. Here is some food for thought. I have found when comparing and listening to how the vibrations and resonances in this hobby affect the different sounds we get; that identifying “ground zero” aka the common base/plinth for all components in a turntable system (bearing/platter/spindle/motor/tonearm-cartridge) was important for me. Slaw – in your system pic - your motor/enclosure is not attached, or even on the same base as your VPI plinth - what this means to me ... Your VPI plinth is the plinth/base for only the platter/spindle/bearing and tonearm/cartridge. Your wall shelf is the plinth/base for the actual motor. Being a vibration/resonance hobby everything has an effect on your overall sound that we are getting so …. What is the overall turntable “system” common base/plinth that the overall sound is actually based on ? IMO 1) If all of your turntable parts were on one wall shelf your actual overall turntable system plinth would be that shelf. 2) If all of it was on two separate wall shelves then “The Wall” itself becomes the common base/plinth. 3) Still further based on your photo – if the motor is on the wall shelf and the remaining turntable parts on a floor rack - as it appears in your photo? , then both wall and floor factor in as a shared base/plinth for the turntable system, and how resonances and vibrations will affect the sound. Thoughts ? No more coffee for me this morning ... |
Nikola I have to confess I wanted to say Nude cartridge on the Nudie thread but I thought I would be chastised so I said it here. :^( Some like to encase their whole TT system “in” a single base structure. Bring them all together so to speak in one base and therefore plinth. All entry level TT’s start life this way from what I have seen? Appears to be cost effective? We can use your Moldavian plinth holding your SP10 and tonearm/cartridge as an example of this. It is a true base and plinth (IMO) as it holds all the TT pieces on one base. Now others like to take the TT system pieces apart and see what happens. Motors separated and or the Tonearm on an armpod. On your Kuzma turntable, the plinth is the TT system plinth when you are using whichever tonearm is attached directly to it. However when you use your Kuzma TT with the tonearm that is attached to your armpod the TT “system” base/plinth is not the Kuzma plinth anymore – it is the surface they both rest on. Just my opinion. Why don’t you start a thread Nikola – How do you define a Plinth ? if you dare. However he also postulated 'the qualitative difference between a real plinth ' and those 'illegitimate footers'. But because my 'philosophical' opinion is that the meaning of words depend on the context in which thy are used I mentioned my legs as footers and postulated the opposite. That they are an 'legitimate' base for my nacked or dressed body. Those "illegitimate" footers that you and Lew are referring to (I experimented with as well in this fashion in the past) under a DD or idler only account for the bearing, motor, spindle, platter. This then requires a tonearm/cartridge off on its own somewhere on an armpod. The common base where these “footers” and armpod spikes meet - is the common base and TT system plinth- imo. There is no confusion here for me. This is very clear. Your own body footers (legs) support your your “whole body system”. |
Slaw- I personally have only tried it with the spacer, but now wonder if this could be a source of unwanted resonance using the acrylic armboard? IMO – added resonance – yes. But whether it is a good or bad resonance in your setup only you can tell. Is this any different really than adding layers to the platter ? As ones system resolution rises its a resonance game we play with vinyl. Adding layers for me complicates things; as far as allowing me to understand what material/part is contributing to the sound. I believe it was used (shim) to keep from marring the acrylic surface with the 3 ET2 spikes. I did use it with the TNT. I don’t use it now – my 2 ET2 arms are mounted naked with their spikes. With the machine skills you have, as seen by your standalone motor assembly I would be making up 2 or 3 different material armboards. :^) Nandric
Regarding your 'base' philosophy. Not to get involved in infinite regress or adding up of meanings, we all are moving at about 700 miles an hour, carried by the diurnal
rotation of our 'mother earth'. For your 'basic base' there is no futher reduction possible. But 'it' moves as Galilei persisted on and got in trouble with the 'mother church'. Hi Nikola I personally learned a long time ago not to worry too much about things I have no control over such as the world spinning, 18 year old fraternal twins :^( , etc…. or I would have put myself 6 feet under already by now. I prefer to have fun in this hobby and in areas I have control over, solely based on what I am hearing. And because 'plinth=base' there is no better base for whatever TT than the slate kind. It should be counted as the real estate because of the weight and value. All materials resonate including slate. From what I recall reading (not listening) slate resonates around 121 hz (forget what thickness it was). Lower than your acrylic Kuzma which I believe was around 207-210 hz in the tests that were done; not sure again of thickness that was used. This info is avail on the internet if you google it. How accurate it is IDK. I have however read that using a full TT system plinth in a low resonating material helps to boost the bass in a room ? This could help if your room/speaker/placement combination is lacking in the low end ? Glad you’re having fun with your SP10 Nikola. |
