Output: 0.3mV
Stylus: nude line contact 0.3 x 1.6mil
Compliance: 9 x 10-6cm/Dyne
Mass: 9g
Load Impedance: >40 ohms
Tracking: 1.75 to 1.8g
Nice cartridge. I had the original 7000 mounted on my ET2 for a short time during a period when my system was making the transition from all ss (Threshold, BEL) to all tube. My original 7000 was a very detailed cartridge which I much preferred to the other Scantech (Lyra Clavis and Spectral) cartridges that I tried around that time. The 7000 was a little warmer and sumptuous than the other two which I found to be way too zippy and lean, but in the context of my all ss/heavily modified Magnepan MGIIIA's there still wasn't enough "meat on the bones" for me. I highly recommend you try the magnesium arm wand. A single leaf spring I-beam will produce a "fuller" sound, but I usually end up with the double leaf spring for a more organized sound that is less "lumpy" in the bass. Good luck! |
Rule of thumb is that a compliance spec of 12 or lower is considered low compliance. |
I consider that a compliment; thanks. I don't teach (woodwinds) nearly as much as I used to, but I make a point of always having at least a couple of students. It is a great way to never forget about the most important things: the fundamentals. I have always been fascinated by the many parallels between our audio hobby and playing music as concerns the process of choosing and tweaking of equipment and how that truly relates to music fundamentals; rhythm being the most important fundamental. The ET2 gets a lot of the fundamentals right. Regards. |
Schubert, there is a saying among jazz musicians that "you can't play outside (the harmony) until you know how to play inside". It is usually said in reference to some (not all) of the so-called "avante garde" players who squeal and squawk and have no grasp of the fundamentals (there's that word again) of melody and harmony, and who bullshit their way through an improvisation. Well, the same idea applies to rhythm. A great jazz player can manipulate rhythm and deviate from metronomic rhythmic precision as a way to create tension and release and expressiveness in a solo or delivery of a melody; it can give the delivery a certain swagger and relaxed quality. Then, there are some who simply have imprecise rhythm. It should be pointed out that in jazz there is much more latitude for manipulation of rhythm considered to be acceptable than in classical music. As jazz became more and more adventurous harmonically over recent decades, so did rhythmic concepts become more individualistic. For a great example of this listen to the great Dexter Gordon. Early to mid career recordings demonstrate great rhythmic precision. Later recordings demonstrate playing which was more and more "relaxed" and behind the beat to the point that it is almost painful to listen to him playing (especially ballads) because this approach created so much tension. He was a true artist however and this approach rang true and was a valid style choice. In the case of lesser players or singers this can sound forced and just plain wrong. |
Dover, I agree. Rhythm is something that is often overlooked or given short shrift in discussions about audio in general. Another favorite saying among musicians is "no one gets fired for having a bad tone". Somewhat of an exaggeration to be sure, but the message is simply that as far as the music (as opposed to ear candy) goes the most important fundamental is rhythm. There are some musicians who possess exquisite tone, but their sense of rhythm is rough and/or musically inflexible. Most musicians would much rather play with someone who has a great sense of rhythm and phrasing even if the tone is less than ideal. Because the ET2 is a mechanical device, subject to the effects of mechanical resonances and is not a human being, this concept only applies to a degree. However, for me, one of the reasons that the ET2 is so rhythmically correct is the fact that it is also so tonally correct. In audio, tonal distortions can have a very significant effect on our perception of rhythm. |
Dover, thank you for the link to the MIT video. Very interesting, and I was particularly impressed by how their designs are guided by music theory. As I said before, the conceptual parallels between the audio hobby and music making are many. |
Slaw, sometimes the best course of action is to look the other way and ignore silly provocations. In spite of that, and as I have said before, I continue to feel that you may have some interesting input for this thread given the passion for music and this hobby that you have demonstrated at times. It is for that reason, and in the hope of keeping things on a more positive track, that I will address your concern.
Ever since my post of 8-03-15, and one which seems to have caused you some consternation, we have discussed or touched upon the subjects of diction, bullfrogs, herrons, wives, beer (and the provenance of one), the cost of trout, and even the fact that it is drummers who get the best chicks. Oh, yeah, almost forgot, we also discussed silly things like musicians' timing, musicianship in general and received invaluable set-up tips and a great deal of very interesting data for and about the world's greatest tonearm; AND welcomed two new participants to the thread. Is it any wonder that this continues to be one of the most interesting threads here? So, given this veritable cornucopia of interesting topics, why you choose to stay on the dark side is a bit of a mystery to me. I won't take your obvious confusion about our "private" "conflict" (your words, not mine) personally; but, while I prefer to keep these things private, you have made them public so I need to set the record straight.
From my Audiogon inbox, correspondence from you to me in reference to the "material" you sent me:
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slaw
February 15, 2014 1:17pm
(****)
Just keep it. I need to not be stressed out.
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I am sure that you simply forgot about this part of our correspondence and if you would like further discussion about my impressions of the sonic effects of using the 6"x10" (or so) piece of plastic material that you sent me let's please do it privately. I think this thread is better served by sticking to discussions about matters related to the great ET2 or fun and friendly banter.
BTW, Chris, whoever said it was drummers who get the best chicks? I always thought the saxophone was the best chick magnet. Just ask my wife :-) |
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Dorothy's technology is definitely eminent. Personally, I like a little mileage :-) |
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Pegasus, I tried a Decca "London" in my ET2 years ago. What I can tell you is that the problems that I encoutered with this pairing had more to do with grounding issues that I was never been able to resolve. I still own that Decca (three pins/shared ground pin) and for reasons that I cannot explain the only arm that I have been able to use it in with marginally acceptable levels of hum/buzzing was the Grado "Signature" arm that I had years ago. With the ET2 the ground noise was completely unacceptable. Of course, I tried every conceivable "fix" to no avail. Still, when I listened through the noise, the Decca magic was there. I did not hear (as one might expect) tracking issues any worse than with the other arms; except in very demanding orchestral passages. The fabled Decca immediacy and explosive dynamics were there and something almost indescribable that says this is what live music sounds like. Very frustrating experience because of the noise problem. All this was before I went direct to preamp with continuous run of tonearm wire. Now, with the continuous run and naked wire the noise is horrible and even worse. Every once in a while I will take that old Decca out again and try "one last time"; no better. Aargh! Have wanted to try one of the new generation Deccas for some time. |
Oops! Sorry; this new iPhone is driving me nuts. Go Mets! |
Chris, that is exactly what I did . It helped a great deal with MM's which tended to have grounding issues although not nearly as severe as with the Decca, but with the Decca it is still a problem. MC's have never been a problem. For anyone who is interested, Michael Percy (website) stocks all necessary items including Teflon tubing, copper mesh and sleeving. |
I agree with Chris and Dover, in my experience the ET should not be run downhill. Anything but perfect leveling of the arm causes image instability and balance problems at best, and in a worst case it causes severe distortion at the end of a record. The effects of the increased overhang adjustment have been relatively subtle, but definitely audible (beneficial in my case), and I would love to know in more detail what Brucen T meant when he said : "He's probably right". Some thoughts on leveling:
Maybe some would consider it masochism, but I have never been even close to experiencing enough frustration with setup of this arm to want to ditch it and go back to a pivoting. I have always tried to setup according to what my ears tell me sounds best, with the theory and "correct" approach taking somewhat of a back seat. As with most things in audio there is seldom only one parameter that needs to be considered at any one time; remembering that makes setup easier. For instance, balancing the tonearm (however we each do it) affects azimuth; so, it's important to remember that when we listen for the image stability effects of getting the balance stable. I use a small bubble level on the spidle itself, not the manifold housing. I find that this gets me in the ballpark, and then I use a procedure that I know will raise some eyebrows. I raise the cartridge using the cuing wand (not the lever) and very carefully "flip" the arm/cartridge up a tiny bit so that it actually bounces up and down unto the cuing wand. While this happens there is enough time for the entire arm to be suspended mid-air without the friction of the either the LP groove nor the cuing wand itself affecting the perceived movement to one side or the other. The arm will then "show" you wether it is truly level or not, as it will travel either inwardly or outwardly during those moments that it is suspended in air; one then mechanically adjusts accordingly. The procedure should be done with arm over the outer edge of the platter, the middle, and (if possible) the inner portion of the platter. I say "if possible" because as all you ET mavens know, the cuing mechanism is designed in such a way that the cartridge is usually closer to the record surface at the inside of a record vs the outside. It's tricky and potentially dangerous (to your cartridge), but I have yet to have an accident. One can always do it with the stylus guard in place, but that doesn't work for me since I like to setup the arm so that there is little clearance between the LP and the stylus "at rest".
Then there is the issue of the dressing of the tonearm wires and their influence on perceived "balance" of the tonearm. Aside from the superior sonics, that was one of the reasons I chose AudioNote wire for my wire loom. It is extremely thin and adds little drag to the arms movement. As an experiment I performed the above-described balancing procedure with the wire loom removed, and even in spite of meticulous dressing of the extremely fine wires, it was obvious that the wires will necessarily affect the perceived "balance" of the arm, and should be compensated for when mechanically balancing. In the case of my wire loom and how I was dressing it, it was introducing a slight force to the outside of the record.
Many users have complained that the ET "goes out of adjustment" over time. That has not been my experience. After years of experiencing this "problem", I finally realized that what was happening was that since I have the table on a wall mounted shelf, the seasonal shifting of the walls and floor of my house (110 yr old Victorian) was what caused the problem, not the arm itself. I suspect that many of the reported problems are caused by this.
Long live the ET2! :-) |
Richard and Chris, I have always had a 50' spool of excess (unnecessary; length-wise) clear and fairly rigid tubing between the pump and my surge tank. Like Chris mentioned, the coil of tubing will act as a surge tank. I was able to confirm the benefits of doing this when my previous surge tank exploded and I needed something in the interim.
I am intrigued by the comments re soft vs rigid tubing. I have not experimented with the two versions and logic seems to suggest that rigid would be better as Chris says. However, might it be possible that the air pressure causes the soft tubing to expand and actually create an effectively wider-diameter tube, thus increasing the "surge tank effect"; and, why the soft/clear sounded better?
Like someone recently said, this is mad-scientist territory. |
Welcome aboard, Mark. The HW19 is a nice platform for your ET2; that's what I had for a few years before my TNT6 and it sounded very good. If I may offer a tip: If you haven't done it yet, replacing the spring suspension with sorbothane pucks or upturned metal cones adds a lot of stability which helps the ET2 perform it's best on that table. It might worthwhile to contact member Nandric and ask if he might be interested in selling his Acutex 420. I know that he has been reducing the size of his collection. He would be a reliable seller if he were to agree. You could also post in this thread http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1200430667&openfrom&8935&4#8935and express you interest to buy one. I have a feeling that you will find one. Good luck, and keep us posted. |
Thank you Chris, Dover, Richard, and all for the fascinating data, opinions, and food for thought. I continue to enjoy the, admittedly, subtle effects of using a single weak magnet with my ET.
I can't claim to understand the physics involved well enough to give a thorough explanation of what happened in my particular case, but I have to concur with Dover about the concerns over added mass. In my case, it was not mass in the spindle, but a case of too much mass at the "headshell" and cartridge itself. A few years ago I managed to destroy the suspension on one of my VDH cartridges by applying too many bits of Blu-tac to a "naked" MC1, and to the top of the headshell in an attempt to dampen a cartridge that sounded overly aggressive in the highs. It worked to smooth out the ragged highs, but within days, experienced a collapsed suspension. The cartridge was properly balanced and setup at the appropriate VTF.
****Does damping not mean - reduce, diminish, dull - to a point that reduces some of “vinyl’s nasties”, caused mostly in this case with the ET2 tonearm – the off center hole - but we want to do this without taking away too much from the music itself ?**** -Chris
In the endless debate about wether footers, pads, etc. have a beneficial effect on music playback accuracy, I have always contended that, in absolute terms, it is not possible to overdamp a component's resonances by adding mass. Added mass can only be a good thing; in theory. While it may be possible to tweak the resonances to suit a particular system or listener's tastes, eliminating/controlling resonances can only be a good thing for a component's electrical performance, if not it's role in a given "system" (including the listener's ears) which is functioning in the electrical domain. But, it seems to me that in the case of a tonearm, we are not talking about simple resonances, but how added or removed mass affects the movement and stability-in-motion of the arm/cantilever "system". Sorry for possibly stating the obvious, but it helps me to make better sense of all this. Thanks again for a most interesting discussion. |
Dave,
Prior to my buying the magnesium arm wand I used the regular aluminum wand with various MC cartridges including some that were much more "aggressive" than the Shelter including the Spectral, VDH Grasshopper and others, with no issues that I could definitely attribute to the aluminum wand. I think you would be fine with the aluminum; you can always easily add additional mass and/or damping to the wand. I will say, however, that on Dover's recommendation I went back to the aluminum wand when I started using MM's again with beneficial results. You can extrapolate from that experience. In general, the Shelter behaves very well in the ET2 with well controlled highs. The issue of output is curious. The Shelter plays almost as loud into my EAR phoo stage as a Benz Ruby H which has an output spec of .8mV @ 3.54 cm/sec; go figure. |
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Re "escaping air". Even with the HP bearing/manifold there will be air escaping from the ends of the bearing. In my case you hear it only when the arm is at either end of its "trajectory"; and certainly cannot be heard when music is playing. IOW, you hear the air when it escapes and then has either the rear end cap or front elbow to make contact with. In general, the sound of a small amount of air escaping is normal, subtle, and should not be surprising. Chris is correct about the issue of pressure at the pump vs that at the arm, but the Medo 0910 is conservatively rated and actually outputs closer to 30 psi, so achieving 17-19 at the arm should not be difficult. Dave, you will be very pleased with the HP manifold and Medo; it is not a subtle difference. Keep us posted. |
****My thinking is it therefore makes sense to have the trough paddle attached to the end bearing cap as designed.****
Chris, interesting consideration, but I am not so sure that is always the "best" location. I use the trough as intended out of convenience, but have always been intrigued by the Townshend approach of silicone damping at the headshell. Additionally, since "We change resonances by using 1-3 springs and lead weight positioning", is it not possible that is precisely why damping closer to the headshell makes sense? IOW, if we optimize resonance characteristics at the rear bearing cap, introducing damping at that point would then change that resonance "balance" to the extent that, for instance, a different spring might perform better with a given cartridge.
Our sound systems are still so imperfect that, wether we like to admit it or not, we use resonance "control" as tone controls at least to some degree. Seems to me that in an LP playback "system" what we hear as sound improvements or degradations when manipulating resonances are the result of how those resonances affect the actual performance of a cartridge/tonearm system in absolute terms not just in the subjective sense of, for instance, preferring the brightness through a particular frequency band that particular resonances may introduce. To my way of thinking it is easy to understand how certain resonances may affect the actual working of a cartridge's suspension and motor given the very low level at which the mechanical to electrical conversion takes place. On the other hand resonances that occur within, say, a turntable's plinth will affect perceived frequency balance but, seems to me, are unlikely to affect the actual mechanical "performance" of the turntable. However, those same resonances will travel to the cartridge and may affect the performance of the cartridge, so it may make sense to damp as close as possible to the cartridge. Lastly, the "shock absorber" benefit of fluid damping in stabilizing the arms movement will be there regardless of the location.
Just some ruminations possibly the result of too much L-tryptophan :-)
Hope everyone had a Happy Thanksgiving day! |
Chris, Bruce is indeed a fascinating individual and his talent is obviously never in question. After half a dozen, or so, phone conversations over the years I have gotten the sense that he is a kind of "mad scientist"; and, I say that in the most positive way possible. He has always been willing to speak on the phone and provide help with not a bit of impatience, but never touts or hypes any of his products or ideas; he has a sense about him of very quiet confidence with a bit of dryness. Speaking of his subwoofer: I have often wondered how a person does and funds r&d for a product like that. How many can he possibly have sold so far? Have you ever heard/seen this thing? I would love to.
I too have been a fan of his planars and came very close to buying a pair of one the very first models (model # escapes me) of them years ago. I first heard them at a local dealer and a little later at an audio show here in town where his speakers and Meitner (another genius) products were part of a system. As much as I love Meitner products (I still have the old MTR 101's and Pa6i in a second system) the sound at the show was a disaster due to their use of the Meitner turntable. Remember that one? It is a beautiful thing and has no platter to speak of so any warps of the vinyl surface become extremely audible; at least that's what I heard that day. I kept wanting to ask the guy: can't you hear that! I think that unfortunately that experience derailed my interest in the speakers at that particular time. |
Slaw, as Richard said, you are not alone. Its a bit presumptuous to assume that because there were no responses to your "diatribes" (your word) that you are the only one with passion for the music. You are clearly very passionate about your music and I admire and commend you for that. There are many reasons why some may not be able to post for a few days and those reasons should be obvious to someone like yourself who has previously taken protracted periods of "time off" from posting; it is not a personal slight nor indication of lack of passion.
Since you stated that you dreaded the responses I will oblige you and take you to task over the issue of passion for music. You have an obvious passion for music that you like; but, it seems, only if it sounds good ("audiophile-good"). A while back, and in response to your suggestion that we persue a common reference, I recommended an LP that you deemed "unlistenable" due to its sound. That came as a surprise to me since it was an LP that is highly regarded for its sound quality as well as its music. I would respectfully suggest that the strongest passion for music would allow us to ignore less than perfect sound and simply enjoy the music; yes, even on a table radio. Good music doesn't need the help of fancy equipment to make its point; as nice a the equipment is. |
Chris, yes!, ear protection mufflers over ear plugs. May not be audiophile approved, but effective. Actually, my tractor is a Husqvarna GT48XLS. Love the thing. I suppose that after so much time worrying about the micro level of woodwind spring tension and tonearm resonances, I find the visceral experience of dirt, gasoline fumes and engaging that rear-wheel-differential a welcome change of pace :-)
In answer to your question: it is rare the professional grade woodwind instrument that does not require fairly extensive "set-up" even when brand new; including spring tension. Some manufacturers are more careful about releasing instruments in good playing condition than others. As audiophiles know very well, there is good and then there is GOOD when it comes to setup; a new instrument will inevitably require a visit or two to a first-rate technician. I have actually learned to do quite a bit of set-up work myself because, frankly, it's almost impossible to pay someone enough to do the kind of really fine adjustments that make an instrument feel mechanically "one's own".
Your comments about bass-management are spot-on. I completely agree with you about the importance of getting the bass right and there is, likewise, an expression among musicians that "everything starts from the bass up". IOW, get the tuning and balance of the bass instruments correct and everything else is much more likely to fall into place musically. The best orchestras (like the best stereos) have bass sections that play with the same clarity of timbre and litheness of the upper instruments, and produce sounds that are not simply low-frequency muck with no air around individual instruments.
Regards. |
**A vinylphile, on his way to loan his buddy and fellow LP-lunatic his prized vacuum record cleaner, decides to make a quick stop at the bank for some cash. He pulls into the parking lot and nervously decides that it's probably ok to leave the machine unattended on the backseat of the car for just a few minutes. Runs into the bank and makes the quick transaction. On his way back out to the car....SHIT!! ....the rear window of the car is smashed to bits and the door wide open! He slowly peers into the rear of the car, and on the back seat he sees....two record cleaners!** A twist on a classic viola joke (the viola, popular subject of ridicule among musicians). This one, also easily adaptable to the subject of this thread: Q: How can one tell that the floor of the stage is level? A: The viola player is drooling out of both sides of his mouth. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9CdVTCDdEwI |
Chris, re high compliance carts with the ET2. I agree with you that it can be used successfully with them and have done so for as long as I have owned the arm; which is almost as long as it has existed. I remember more than one comment by "reviewers" stating that the arm performed best with low compliance carts; this, even before the mag wand was even available. Then there was the review which praised the Monster AG2000 cartridge (low compliance) as THE cartridge for the arm; and idea that I heard repeated many times in NYC audiophile circles. It is, in fact, an exceptionally good combination (I own it) even with the regular aluminium wand and I think that this contributed to that mistaken idea taking hold.
And it IS all about the bass. Get the bass right and things fall into place. Now, 350 millions hits! Actually, it's a pretty catchy and cute song. Too bad that a well intended (I think) message has to be combined with the typical-for-our-time crassness. "Junk in all the right places". Now, THERE'S a nice thing to point out to one's daughter! |
A couple of thoughts:
Slaw, vibrations are not necessarily reflected back to the components as in the case of your sand boxes. The energy turns to heat and is dissipated as such; perhaps no all of it, but I would imagine a substantial amount of it does. The issue of wether vibrations are reflected back, drained, stored or dissipated and how each possibility affects the sound of our systems is still, I think, not fully understood. Richarkrebs' comment about using the correct epoxy to glue lead is fascinating and goes to my contention that wether we want to admit it or not, a lot of what we do with "vibration control" and how it's effects are perceived is completely system dependent and often no more than a type of "tone control". While I can understand how vibrations can affect the performance of transducers in absolute terms, it seems to me that as concerns electronics and cables it is NOT possible to "overdamp"; other than in the context of a given system. When the perceived effect of damping (or of not damping) is negative it's an indication of tonal inaccuracy in that component or somewhere else in the system. How can eliminating spurious vibrations be a bad thing? I addition, tonal issues affect how we perceive rhythm and timing and even soundstaging. As great as our audio systems sound, they are still far from truly accurate; as in the sound of live music which is why these perceived effects are relevant. |
****while I am here I have always felt a visitor to the wild life that surrounds me. It is their place so I just try to fit in. ****
Thought about your comment yesterday. We stocked our pond with trout at the beginning of the summer, thinking that the bullfrogs could use some company :-) They are (were?) fairly mature fish at about 8-10 in. Well, over the course of the summer it appeared that we had fewer and fewer fish in the pond. We weren't sure since its a fairly large pond and quite deep. Our dog had earlier been very interested in a spot near the pond where I found a tail fin; "fee-fi-fo-fum". Well, yesterday, as I sat on my porch swigging Moosehead Ale (really) and listened to Brahms' Fourth I witnessed an extraordinary sight. As I looked out over the pond a Great Blue Herron came swooping down from the trees, dove into the pond and snagged one of my Rainbows. Beautiful creature and much larger than I imagined, never having seen one up close. What made me think of your comment is the fact that I had never seen one near my property, but only some distance away where there is a large lake. I have no problem providing a $4 lunch to a Herron and the sight of it was more than worth it, but makes me wonder just how well I am "fitting in". |
Chris, that is exactly what I did . It helped a great deal with MM's which tended to have grounding issues although not nearly as severe as with the Decca, but with the Decca it is still a problem. MC's have never been a problem. For anyone who is interested, Michael Percy (website) stocks all necessary items including Teflon tubing, copper mesh and sleeving. |
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(D), of course. Although, (A) is pretty general and applicable; the ET2 has corrected mistakes found in other arm designs.
However, and a bit of a stretch to be sure, but (B) the function of a surge tank can be said to convert the pulses in the airstream of a pump (alternating current) to a smooth airstream (direct current). Moreover, and an even bigger stretch, a desiccant air filter can be said to refine (C) the air (substance) through distillation. So, yes, rectification is a good word. Wait, this is a trick question.....
Some thoughts with my wine (red, and probably too much of it) :^)
My amps' transformers? EI, all the way. However, being monoblocs they are a good distance from my front end (via 15' ics). My phono preamp uses a toroidal and is much closer..
What did my wife do with that last bottle of Malbec? :-) |
****It is replaced by music that flows like water.****
That is a great description of the most musically distinguishing characteristic of the ET-2 compared to the pivoting arms that I have used. There is a rhythmic smoothness that is very natural and gives music the feeling of not being constrained ...like water. Every piece of equipment throws logs across the stream; the ET2 seems to do it a lot less than most. Love the arm.
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vpi, if you do decide to clean your manifold as Chris correctly inquires about, I would be careful to do it right and go through the more labor intensive (but worth it!) process of removing and cleanig the capillaries as discussed here previously and NOT the sometimes recommended (in other forums on line) method of simply sending an alcohol solution through the "system". I did this years ago and it made matters much worse. The improvement as a result of cleaning the capillaries was tremendous. Regards.
Chris, how are the bears doing with the unseasonably warm weather?
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Good memory, Chris. This was my post from 4+ (!) years ago: ++++ I have constructed an I beam (balsa wood) that uses a leaf spring from one of the regular ET I beams which allows me to to move the counterweights up to 6 inches from the spindle; although not the 7 inches that I implied. With my cartridges which are either medium compliance Vandenhuls or high compliance MM’s, the improvement in bass weight and detail is significant. One other way to experiment with moving the weight further from the spindle is by using the threaded brass weights on the threaded rod that secures the regular lead weights to the counterweight holder. This allows the weight to be further back, and effectively "extending" the I beam. Speaking of the I beams, no one has mentioned the importance of experimenting with leaf springs of different compliances. I have three ET (plastic) I beams, each of a different compliance. The lower the compliance the more tightly focused the sound is. Higher compliance springs make the sound a little "bloomier", with an all around easier presentation. ++++ Since adding a pair of REL subs to my system I have revised my findings somewhat since, as has been pointed out, moving the weight back TOO MUCH can cause other problems. On balance, I love what the REL’s are doing for the sound, but with the extended I-beam I find it more difficult to integrate them in a way that sounds natural. I am currently not using it. So glad to see all the recent activity on this thread. What a great tonearm this is! I never cease to be amazed at the genius behind this design and the fabulously natural sound that it yields. Chris should be commended for his excellent tutorials and advise. A couple of comments on recent discussions: As was recently pointed out by Chris, as with the setup of a fine musical instrument, it’s all about resonances. With that in mind, I have found that a worthwhile setup detail is making sure that the bolts, adjustment and otherwise, and especially the bolts that secure the two end caps are not too tight which, if too tight, can actually deform the spindle and cause biding at the start and end of its trajectory in the manifold. But beyond that extreme what I am talking about (and I don’t think I am imagining this) is that when all the bolts are tightened "just enough" and with close to equal torque the sound seems to take on even more of that wonderful "this is what live music sounds like" quality that this arm gives like no other in my (limited) experience. Chris, on a completely unrelated topic: you made me chuckle at the mention of your dog not being allowed downstairs. My beagle/lab shedding machine is not allowed in my studio, nor upstairs where the bedrooms are; although pet hair seems to find its way everywhere, even where the critters are not allowed. After being intrigued by these gizmos and not taking the plunge due to skepticism about whether they would actually work, we finally bought a (now two) robotic vacuums. It is not an exaggeration to say that they have been life changers. This one, which is actually one of the least expensive ones does an amazing job of keeping the floors where the pooch roams clean between full house cleanings, and consequently all other areas and surfaces stay noticeably cleaner as well. It was also a lot of fun watching Artie’s reaction to his new mechanical bud. Highly recommended. Regards. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N9P4NH5/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 |
Chris, I wish I could give you a more interesting 😉 description of how I remove tonearm cartridge leads from a cartridge, but my method is exactly like yours. Only thing I would add is that the tiniest amount of Deoxit helps keep the connection lubed and easier to separate while presumably also helping conductivity. Your use of a toothpick is also my method of expanding clips that are too tight due to overcrimping. As you know, when crimping the clips in order to make the connection tighter it is all to easy to crimp it in a way that the clip loses round; this would most likely decrease the number of contact points between the clip and cartridge prong. I took a small needle nose pliers with serrated "teeth" and by using a small thin round hobby file I made the space between the "teeth" and on both sides just wide and deep enough to cradle the cartridge clip; this allows crimping with equal pressure along the entire length of the clip without deforming it; and I do this with the toothpick in the clip to help keep round and to prevent overcrimping. Re subwoofers:
In my experience, you are exactly correct re near field placement. My pair of REL’s sit on either side of my two-person listening couch. I set the xover point as low as possible; usually at 28hz with occasional adjustments of a couple of hz one way or the other depending on the recording. I find that anything much higher than that thickens the sound in the midrange unnaturally and what I am looking for, more than anything, is not necessarily more obvious bass weight, but the concert hall (and studio) ambient information that is found in that frequency range. I also find that the midrange, independent of the presence of obvious bass information, takes on added purity and density when the system can reproduce the lowest frequencies. A controversial topic and not entirely understood (certainly not by me), but just as there exists the overtone series in music, we have undertones or subharmonic series that factors into all this. For instance, a recording of a woodwind choir playing in a range well above a subwoofer’s xover point will sound noticeably fuller and with more tonal density (as in live music) with the subwoofer on than with it off; importantly, and as Pegasus points out, eventhough there is no spurious midrange information being reproduced by the subwoofer. Re inverting phase setting: I think whistling 😚. One can whistle while blowing air out or by sucking air in. To me, the correct phase setting sounds like the bass is being projected out (as it should be) as opposed to sounding like it is being sucked in. The latter, as well as generally sounding weaker in volume, detracts from the contribution of the bass instruments in musical terms. I like your hand on the woofer cabinet method. Btw, while I generally agree that directionality is not a major issue with subwoofers, before I bought a second REL, I found that with a single sub "up-front" with the main speakers sometimes center images would subtly "lean" in the direction of where the sub was placed (if to one side or the other); again, whether there was obvious bass information or not. Regards.
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What started me thinking about the issue of how much to (not) torque down on bolts/screws was when I realized that I had inadvertently compressed and deformed one of my wands’ "head shell" to the point that the cartridge would no longer be "parallel to the record surface"; which I believe, in theory, it should be. Obviously, that is still no guarantee of intended VTA.
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Harry, I don’t know if you have the thicker arm board that VPI made for the HW19 Mark IV to address the very issue you are having. If you don’t, they may be able to make one up for you. When I purchased the thicker platter for my HW19 years ago and before I got the thicker acrylic armboard my solution to the problem was to put washers between the metal subchassis and the underside of the regular armboard (or thicker one, if that is what you have and you still need more height) with the bolts going through them to raise the arm board to the desired height. Good luck.
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Well, I guess my wife is right; I really am a pack-rat. All this talk about arm boards for the HW19 got me thinking and looking in my "equipment graveyard" cabinet where I keep all sorts of stuff not needed nor used for many years in some cases. In one of the drawers I found not one, but two HW19 black acrylic arm boards drilled for the ET2. Harry, as another option for you and as an opportunity to scratch your tweaking itch, if you want one of them you are welcome to it, gratis. You could sandwich it with your existing one for approximately the same height as the "thicker arm board"; you would of course need longer bolts which I know are available at Lowes (or VPI?). You could also experiment by putting a thin layer of some sort of damping sheet between them; sure to change the sound a bit (resonance!). Don’t know why, but one of the boards is 7/16" thick and the other 8/16" thick; the thinner one is in better cosmetic shape and both came from VPI. Neither is bad cosmetically but you can always put yours on top. If you are interested pm me your address and I will send it to you. Re washers: delrin would be good, but I would experiment with metal as well just for fun, and I suspect that simply the act of "suspending" the armboard a bit away from the metal subchassis would have more of an effect as it would surely change its resonance somewhat and more than whether the washers are metal or not. Always fun to experiment.
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Or, "Audio Storage Wars". I’m sure I am not alone and God knows what else I have in that cabinet. Rules: we get to look over (from a distance) at the audiophile’s room and system and then bid, without looking inside, on the "Miscellaneous old stuff" drawer or box. Old Supex? Telefunkens? Tice "Magic Clock" (I’m showing my age)? One never knows.....👍 |
Harry, got your introductory pm. Re damping between the boards:
While I agree with John in principle (I am not a fan of Sorbothane), I would, as with all this stuff, let your ears be the final judge. As I see it, because of the way that both boards would be secured tight by bolts to the metal subchassis, I don’t think that rigidity will be an issue. I do think that Sorbo may cause too much damping or you may not like its particular signature. I will include a piece of the material that I used when I made my constrained-layer- damping platforms for my rack. It is a very thin rubberized cloth material that is used in flooring installations that is very effective but not squishy like Sorbo at all. About 1/4 the thickness of the Sorbo sheets that I am familiar with and much more difficult to compress. It is easily reversible if you don’t like it. I find that there are few absolutes when it comes to tweaking, and as much as we would all like to think that our systems are "neutral", most tweaks related to resonance within and outside the system are perceived as positive or negative relative to the particular tonal signatures of our particular pieces of equipment and their cumulative effect. Experimentation with an open mind (ear) is the ticket, imo. |
Before you attribute any perceived changes to the raised board make sure that you first make the comparison with the VTA EXACTLY the same as it was before you raised it. What made your initial impression positive? |
A lot of passion, indeed; and, I am impressed at the fine level of nuance that you are able to hear and able to describe. Harry, no shame due for wondering if raising the arm board might be a step backwards in transparency; it's always a possibility that would be hopefully offset by the gains from proper VTA adjustability. Sometimes we have to give up a little somewhere to gain something more important elsewhere. Glad to hear you don't think you've had to give anything up and the magic is back. I did have a thought about something that I am surprised we all overlooked (I think) when discussing your VTA issues. The HW19 MkIV platter itself can be raised or lowered by turning the bearing's thrust plate. When I had the MKIV I had the platter just barely clearing the table's top plate. How much clearance do you have? Lowering the platter may get you some more (or easier) VTA adjustability. Btw, the extra armboard will go out this morning; had to get through a very busy weekend. Let us know how it all works out. |
Good suggestions, Harry. I sent you the board via USPS yesterday. I also included a piece of the material that I mentioned previously. If and when you get around to trying the "double-board" I would try with and without the sheet between the boards. Resonance and its effects is a crazy thing and the two boards, as tightly together as they may be held together, will still resonate as thinner boards in, at least, parts of their total surface area; as flat as these boards may be cut, they won't make contact with each other over their entire surface area. The sheet between them may help them act "as one" and will introduce some dampening which may or may not be beneficial in the context of your system and your tastes. At least, that is how my twisted brain considers this kind of thing. Please report any impressions.
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Interesting comments on the subject of mc cartridge loading; especially from Ralph Karsten of Atma-Sphere and references to Jonathan Carr's feelings on the topic. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/mc-cartridge-loadingIn the context of my systems over time my experience with cartridge loading has been that most of the mc's that I have owned sounded "best" at 47K. While lower values could tame possible excessive brightness or add fullness to the upper bass/lower midrange, these "benefits" were often accompanied by a loss of overall detail and linearity and a sense that dynamics were being supressed. I found that I could ultimately achieve more satisfying sound by addressing the issue of brightness or lean bass (at 47K) elsewhere in my system or by changes in VTA and slightly higher VTF. In fairness, my systems have tended to be fuller sounding than most, and I can understand how in the context of a leaner sounding system one might take the other approach. Harry, Paul Desmond had one of the most beautiful alto sounds ever; as you point out he was one of the greats. His obsession with not wanting to hear the spit on his reed led him to say what is one of my favorite quotes in jazz. When asked how he got that beautiful pure tone he replied that he wanted "... to sound like a dry martini". I think that what he was asking for from the engineers was that they not let close micing alter his natural tone which did not normally have the sound of air and spit in it. Close micing will exaggerate any air or spit in the tone, so "rolling off his feed" would compensate for that exaggeration. Ben Webster, on the other hand, used what is referred to as "subtone". He didn't want the purity of tone that Desmond had and cultivated that breathy-with-spit tone. Both great players. Regards. |
Pegasus, I lived with MGIIIA's for many years and, to this day, the sound I achieved with them in the loft space that they were in is the best from any system that I have ever assembled; with the possible exception of the sound from my Stax F-81's. Apples and oranges however as the presentations are very different in scale. That sound, however, was achieved only after extensive mods (completely upgraded xovers and rewiring). Your description of that great ribbon tweeter is exactly as I experienced it and I found that, as well as upgrading the cheap wiring, the most effective solution for the "glassiness" that you describe was hardwiring all the connections to the panel and the (now) completely outboard xovers and bypassing the fuses altogether including the tweeter's fuse (I lived dangerously back then) thereby removing all that nasty steel from the signal path. Transparency was greatly improved and as you point out this allowed me to better hear problems elsewhere in the system. I have been getting very interested in Maggie's again. Great speakers and IN THE RIGHT ROOM capable of surprising bass extension with an absolutely huge and very coherent soundstage. I was able to get 28hz -3db in that large space! Miss those speakers. That was all around the same time that I bought my ET2 which is the only piece that I have kept all these years. That says something, I think.
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Re "straight shot to preamp" wiring:
As just a gentle and friendly nudge to anyone the least bit curious about trying this. In my experience this "tweak" yielded the single biggest improvement in sound quality of any other tweak or adjustment to the ET2. All the other tweaks like using the correct spring compliance for mm or mc, magnesium arm wand and others which deal with resonance and which, to at least some degree, simply shift tonal balance around a bit which, in turn, may add to the impression of "improvement" in the context of a given system are not nearly as large in overall scope. The "sstp" wiring is a very significant improvement of a very fundamental nature with no downside that I ever experienced. Think about it: you are removing at least four solder joints and three connectors of different metals from the path of the tiny and fragile phono cartridge signal’s path. The increase in purity of sound, soundstaging detail and rhythmic coherence is huge in my experience. Of course the choice of wire is important, but secondary to the benefits of getting rid of all the "bumps in the road". The really committed (in more ways than one 😱) can always eliminate the connectors altogether and hardwire the wire directly to the circuit board of the preamp as I did.
Cheers. |
Apologies to the Dutch for misspelling The Netherlands 😔 |
vpi, the VDH MC1 was my first "serious" cartridge purchased more years ago than seems possible. It came back to me upgraded to "Special" status (free of charge) after its third (!) trip back to the Nederlands for retipping. Always liked that cartridge and still do and I agree with your description of its sound relative to Lyra’s. What you describe as "upfront" I hear as simply the fact that it produces individual images which are larger than what I experienced with the two Lyras that I have had and in a generally smaller soundstage. Loved its realistically full midrange tonal balance.
I have done a lot of back and forth with my aluminum and magnesium wands and have come to the conclusion that, theoretical or technical "best" considerations aside, which wand is best is very system and taste dependent. I much preferred the magnesium wand with that cartridge as I found that the aluminum wand tended to take the sound still more in the direction of larger individual images in a smaller soundstage than the magnesium which offered better defined and slightly smaller individual images in a broader soundstage. The magnesium also tended to give a better tonal balance. The aluminum, to my ears, had an overall darker midrange but with more prominent upper frequencies and a slight sense of discontinuity between the two. Again... in my system. Just some possible food for thought. Btw, not as precarious as it may seem if one is careful, but try removing the shell off of the cartridge. Easy to do and the improvement in sound is not subtle. Regards.
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